8. “My wife is spending too much money”

If you've recently discovered this podcast and you've wondered, how can I get Ramit to answer my specific money question? There are two ways to do it. Number one, you can apply to be on this podcast, although we are already full for the rest of the year. Number two, you can join my Money Coaching membership in this program. We do a ton of cool stuff I want to make sure you know about it. We do a monthly live call with me where I cover some of my favorite money topics that I can't go into publicly in as much detail as and I break down our members conscious spending plans. Plus I answer your questions live. We also have tons of virtual events coming up that cover every aspect of living a rich life. For example, our new event Money for Aging Parents is coming up at the end of October that is included for all Money Coaching members. You get access to our library of all past calls like how to Find an Extra Thousand Dollars a Month and how to Do a Rich Life annual review. Plus we have a Money Coaching community group where you can see inspiration how other people are spending their money and get your own questions answered if you want to get help. If you want to meet amazing other people in Money Coaching and you want to build your rich life faster and bigger, you should check out Money Coaching today. Go to iwt.commoneycoaching to join right now. That's iwt.com moneycoaching.

I don't care about the numbers if I want to visit my family or if it's mother's birthday. I know that we have the money and it's priceless to visit our family.

It frustrates me a lot because given the current circumstances that we are in, the only one of the two of us that is able to pay for these kind of things is myself. So it's two challenging when the discussion ends on emotional things, it's difficult to respond. For example, you don't want the best for our child and that is not true.

I hate to have these discussions about money when he's so frustrated because I don't like this.

Natalie and Andres don't agree on money now.

The short version is that she spends.

A lot and he worries about money, but there's a lot lurking beneath the surface.

Just listen to this.

It's that feeling of I don't have enough to just pay for lunch.

I understand that fear, but you have a household income of around $300,000.

Welcome to I Will Teach youh to Be Rich. I'm Ramit Sethi, Today's couple Andres and Natalia used to live in Chile on very good salaries, but now they live in Mexico, and Natalia's income has gone down 35%. Natalia is a spender.

She admits it.

If she thinks it's important, like visiting her family, then she'll spend without thinking twice. Andres, who earns most of the family's disposable income, is the total opposite. He's scared of their spending, really scared. He's the one who's saving, the one who's earning more, and the one who's worrying about their future. Now, I could sit here and show them some stupid compound interest chart and tell them they're earning enough and it's fine to spend money on the things they love, and that would not change a thing. Natalia would continue spending and Andres would continue being worried. And that's not even the real issue anyway. The issue that the two of them don't see money the same way is much deeper, and neither of them know why. Let's listen in today as we try to spot the clues.

I am the one that earns the most right now within the relationship, but I'm also, because of my background, the things that I lived in childhood. I am also the one who's the most concerned with having enough investments, having enough savings. I've gone through certain situations where I didn't know where my next meal would come. And so that has taught me that I need to plan for certain things even if they don't happen, like losing a job or having another source of income. So I think what I would like her to understand, it's my stress regarding money is not because I'm only and solely focused on money, but rather I know what it is and how it feels to be without money. And it's a feeling that I really don't want to have again.

I think one of the biggest difference between the both of us is that I'm probably more impulsive and I'm too sensitive about, oh, our family needs this, or the baby needs this, or I need to help my parents because, well, part of the way we were raised, my parents, they were regular employees with a job that worked so much to give me the best. I'm only child and Rez has three siblings. And so that's the biggest difference. One that I didn't have too much at home, but my mom was always so positive that we're going through out of this and you'll figure out if you're a good person, you will get it. So for me, yes, I know we need to Save. We need to invest. But I care so much about the time that we spend together or the time that he's with the baby. So he's more rational and more emotional.

Notice the words used.

Natalia says she's more sensitive and impulsive and emotional and she uses those as negative words. Now ask yourself, what does someone get out of describing themselves in a negative way and then continuing to do the same thing over and over. Think back to college when half your friends bragged about how lazy they were and how little sleep they got. Bro, it was crazy. Last night I only slept two hours. It's so insane. What do you think they got out of that? Well, the same dynamic is at work here, and I'm willing to bet there's an added wrinkle of some cultural elements.

As well now that we became parents. I'm so worried about education fund for our kid. He is one year and eight months and we've been discussing this before he was born. And I talked to a lady that she has this insurance thing because I'm more worried about what happens if we die before he's 18.

And the reason why we got into this conversation is I know that there are some limitations to the way I communicate and I am the rational of the two. So at some point, badgering with data is clearly not getting the message. And I'm fully aware of that.

Notice that it's not just Natalia using labels, it's also Andres. So now we have a three part dynamic. Imagine a triangle. We have how Natalia describes herself, we have how Andres describes himself, and we have the roles they've created for each other. Most people aren't even aware of these dynamics, so they spend 40 years attacking the symptoms. She spends too much. He's always worried about money. But until you understand these dynamics, you're only tackling the symptoms, not the real root cause.

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How would you characterize what happened in that conversation about the insurance for your son?

I think it's a decision based out of fear. I don't think it's a bad idea imagining the worst case scenario, but it's being hijacked by your emotions and being offered a solution by someone who understands that fear. There is an industry specific to cater to those fears and that's what they're doing. They're selling to the fear of loss. It also frustrates me a lot, given the current circumstances that that we are in. The only one of the two of us that is able to pay for these kind of things is myself. So it's challenging when, when the discussion ends on emotional things that, that of course it's difficult to respond. For example, is it's that you don't want the best for our child and that it is not true. But it's a matter of defining what do you consider what is the best for our child. I also stood my ground in the sense that I wasn't going to pay for that insurance. And unfortunately sometimes the decisions also it ends on a conflict unresolved. We're a married couple and if you let these things add up through time right now it's not something that is causing a lot of pain. But in two years time, three years time, this will cause a lot of pain.

Yeah, I think that's really savvy of you to acknowledge that this is a problem. Not a huge problem, but a problem. But if you continue going on with one child, maybe you grow your family, maybe you move another location, salaries change, this turns into something quite serious. And when I speak to couples who are older and they are at the verge of divorce, it never started there. It started 20 years prior, disagreeing about who pays for dinner. And it just calcified over time. So I think it's great that you're talking about this now.

Just a quick side note, that insurance offer was almost certainly a.

In fact, here are a couple rules of thumb for insurance. If your financial advisor sells you whole life insurance, it's almost always a scam. If someone tells you insurance is a great investment, it's almost always a scam. And if someone tries to sell you fucking insurance on a playground, it's a scam. By the way, if you're an insurance salesman firing up your keyboard, about to send me some angry message about how your insurance policy provides a real value and guaranteed returns and a death benefit and all your other bullshit, just send your email straight to the trash@iwillteach you to be rich.com. i'll be sure to take a look at that.

Okay, where were we?

I know that I have less income and because I work for an airline, for me it's so easy to think, oh, let's go to Miami next weekend. Oh, let's go to Bogota in two weeks. And I don't care about the numbers, if I want to visit my family or if It's Andrea's mother's 65th birthday. So I know that we have the money. It's probably $500 that I know that we have. And it's priceless to visit our family and have some time together. For him, it's $500 that we should pay to this debt. And you think that we have so much money, but if you see our savings is not that big, I will say, oh, you will see your nieces or our son. His name is Alejandro. So Alejandro will have some time with his cousins. So at the end he will say yes. But if we have a sort of fight, he will say, we spent this money going to Colombia. And you said, it will be $500, but then we end up paying for dinners. And you bought more clothes for him and is not a nice conversation. But at the end, I was so happy that we had a good time with our families, that after this crazy year, I really appreciate that. I know that he cares about his family, but he went to study to Australia and he said, I don't care if I don't see them two years. I'm an only child. My parents are almost 70. They just have one grandson. I really want them to see him every three months or every six months. Because I work for an airline and if I don't have the best salary in the world, at least I can get these tickets business class. And so it's not that terrible to go to Columbia. I know that I should be more rational on that side, but for me, so hard.

I know, I know half you guys.

Want to create a 30 page spreadsheet and shit, shove it towards Natalia saying, hey, look at the numbers. Let's make a conscious spending plan. The solution is not in a spreadsheet. Just think about how most people would approach this. Hey, Natalia, we really need to create a budget.

Yeah, okay, whatever. I want to see my parents.

Budgets don't work. Well, actually, budgets don't work, period. But even conscious spending plans from Chapter 4 of I Will Teach youh to Be Rich, a New York Times bestseller, don't work. If both of you don't agree why you're creating one watch. You can tell from what Natalia says.

And when we were doing this exercise for you, I think we have a budget. And we have talked about how much we have in pin brands and everything, but when I realized that we earned $300,000 and we just saved less than, I don't know, 1%, 2%, 5%, which is nothing, I got. I got nervous about it. And I think that's what Andres wanted me to do, that I will be conscious of what we're doing. And they Are saying that last year I was about to lose my job and he was so nervous. He said, okay, if you lose your job, we need to change the apartment. We cannot live here. What are we going to do? We have so many expenses that if we don't have your income, this is not the quality of life that you want. But we can have it where you.

Realized, wow, we are more precarious than I had realized.

He said, you see, that's what I have tried to tell you for so long, but you don't listen to me.

Have you ever said no to an opportunity because of money?

She said, for the first time yesterday, I was ecstatic of joy. I couldn't believe it. I was like, okay, I didn't say anything, but it was the first time I've since I've been together with her.

I'm trying to be more conscious because we my son and my birthday in August, and we also want to Colombia in June. And he said, like, it's so much money, we cannot have both trips. Okay, I will say no to Colombia in June and let's wait for August. And what we could do is that we can bring out my parents and that's like the best of both worlds, that we'll have some time with families. But we're not traveling, so we're spending much less if we're staying here.

What did that feel like?

It felt good that at the end I'm going to see my parents and they're going to see his grandson, but I was more conscious about the money that we were going to spend there.

Okay, Andres, it sounds like you have been trying to get to a shared understanding of your finances with Natalia for a long time. But it doesn't sound like until recently that she understood your money in the way that you want her to understand your money. What do you think changed?

Before our son was born, we had this agreement where we took out a loan on her name and she would pay off that loan. That specific loan was for real estate investment. And that way I didn't have to be concerned about how much she was spending on shoes, bags or whatever. And that worked fine until our son was born. That's when I started saying, okay, we need to re accommodate these certain things. And of course, it's frustrating for me trying to do the best thing that I can for my family, because it's not like we are penny pinching and we're not doing anything. We are enjoying ourselves. But sometimes she says to me, like, oh, we will just pay it with the credit. Card. And I was like, yeah, but you still need to pay the credit card, so you still need to pay that money back. And so it's frustrating. And of course, I'm always trying to look for a solution for these problems. Maybe she won't come 100% to my side. And I don't think that's the idea. The idea is that we find a common agreement between the two of us whereby I feel comfortable. I don't know, 80% of the time, 75% of the time. The idea, at least in my head, is let's save enough and then we can enjoy ourselves. Unfortunately, from my side, I did an investment on a family business two years or three years ago. It was $100,000 investment, and unfortunately, we lost it in the pandemic. It was a restaurant that had to close. And so that was also a very big hit for us. So I think for me it's relief. And it's also, I don't want to be discussing all of the time with my wife. And that's the reason why we're here, because this is not the fight or the discussions that I want to pick with my wife.

What's your greatest fear about your money, Andres?

Just not being able to provide. To be honest, it's that feeling of, I don't have enough to just pay for lunch. I had a business, like, 10 years ago where I made enough money just to pay my basic expenses. If I had something that deviated from my daily routine, I had to walk there because I couldn't pay for gas. And it was a very humbling experience. Right. It teaches you a lot. It teaches you humility, and it also teaches you that you can get over it and you can overcome it. But it's also a very nasty experience when you're living through it.

I understand that fear, but you have a household income of around $300,000.

Like, if we don't have a salary, we're in a tough situation. I can cover expenses for right now, two months or a month and a half, but after that, I'm screwed. And that's what concerns me.

Before the pandemic, I was so positive about it. If I'm not selling tickets, I will sell shoes or. But I'm so good at that that I know that I can provide. But I never thought that the world could shut down and, well, I couldn't have this opportunity of just changing from one job to another. And probably we won't have this nice apartment, but we will sort it out. But I think that everything Changed. And also because of this investment that he lost with his family.

One thing that I hear from both of you is worried about what could happen. And it seems like this pandemic has really opened your eyes to. To the downside risk. And Andres, what I hear from you is a real fear about going back down the socioeconomic ladder. And this is very common for people who have come from very humble means, and then they've done quite well. They look back and say, yeah, I could do it if I had to, but I really don't want to because it is not a good place to be.

If it was by myself, I would say, okay, if that's the cost, then let's do it. Fine, but when you're a family, then, yeah, I shit my pants. Literally.

Have you explained this and have you talked about it with Natalia?

Not in this way too. I have to be honest, because we always talk about it when we're in the heat of the moment, and it's not. Yeah, it's not a good conversation, to be very honest.

Did you catch what Andres just said? We only talk about money in the heat of the moment. This is so common. This is common in about 95% of the people I talk to. They don't actually have good feelings about money. You know, deep down, a lot of people actually hate money, even though they would deny it if you pointed it out to them. To many people, money is a source of stress, frustration, anxiety. So they only talk about it when things blow up, and then they paper over it, pretend the fight didn't happen until next time. Now, the I will teach you to be rich approach is to start with your rich life in vivid detail. Then to build a plan with big wins and quick wins along the way. And that also means setting up a regular time to talk about money before things go wrong. Treat it like a standing business meeting. Create an agenda. Celebrate your wins. At the beginning, if you claim money is important to you, then I really want you to take it seriously.

So let me ask you right now, can you tell Natalia what you are worried about with your money? Talk to her.

My fear, honey, of losing my job or you losing your job. It's that we won't be able to have the trade off discussions, because there won't be a discussion of trade offs. There won't be enough money to go to visit your family, to pay for school, for Alejandro, to pay for rent, not in the level of living conditions that we're used to.

And for me, I think it's very hard to get to that point, because half of my brain will think, we'll sort it out. That's my positive way of thinking that we will do it. But I know that he doesn't want that stress around our relationship, because if we want the best cold, that's going to be expensive. But if we. If we don't have money to pay the rest, we're going to do so. I know that I need to be more responsible of thinking the worst, but for me, thinking about that, it's very hard because we're both so talented and we're so focused on what we do that I know that it doesn't matter if we lose our job. We'll sort it out. And I hate to have these discussions about money when he's so frustrated, because I don't like this.

Yeah, I understand. I think money discussions should also be about joy, and they should also be about what can we do and family and travel and paying for Alejandro's education.

I think those are amazing discussions.

I also think that money discussions have to circle around the numbers and the plans, Planning for when things go well, planning for when things go poorly, because it's all going to happen in a lifetime.

You're so young. Things are going to go really well.

Sometimes, and things are going to go horribly other times. And you've experienced both of those even in your marriage.

You know, in some ways, Natalia and Andres are actually pretty aligned with money. And you know why? Because they both approach money from a place of fear. Andres is scared of what could happen if they find themselves in a situation where they don't have enough money. Natalia, on the other hand, is scared of missing out on life, of what could happen if she doesn't take advantage of that money. In the here and now. They see themselves as having totally different perspectives on money. But when you look beneath the surface, they're actually surprising areas of agreement. They just show up differently. Now I can start to gently bring them together.

When I talk to new business owners, I hear a lot of the same motivations. I want to make extra money. I want more freedom. I want flexibility. But I will tell you something that I've never heard. I want to start a business so I can fill out a bunch of tax forms. That sounds like my hell. The good news is you don't need to be a tax expert to start your own business. Instead, you can use Gusto, this episode's sponsor. Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one. It's remote, friendly, and it's incredibly easy to use so you can pay, hire onboard and support your team from anywhere. They offer automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, workers comp, 401k matches. You name it, they can help. Plus it's quick and easy to switch to Gusto. Just transfer your existing data and get up and running fast with no hidden fees and no surprises. Try gusto today@gusto.com ramit and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll at gusto.com/ramit once more gusto.com ramit what comes to mind when I share these specific moments? Renewing your passport. Scheduling a dentist appointment. Replacing that light bulb that's been out for six months and you're not sure what's the right bulb. We all procrastinate on weird stuff and taxes are usually right at the top of that list. We wait until the last second, then we get overwhelmed, we gotta pull all this paperwork and we're panicked because the deadline is approaching. That's why I recommend Gilt. Now that tax season's over, this is actually the best time to get ahead. If you run a business or you filed for a tax extension, one small move right now could save you thousands later. Gelt is not just another CPA firm. They helped one of my colleagues rethink his entire tax setup. Now he's saving more than he spends on tax prep. With Gelt, you get a proactive year round strategy, not just a one time filing, credits, deductions, business structure. It's handled and their tech platform makes it easy to stay organized. You'll also get access to G's full tax library with guides on retirement plans, QBI and more. So if you've got a business or you filed for an extension, this is the window to take control of your tax plan. Head to joingelt.com ramit to book a consultation and as a member of my community, you get to skip the waitlist. Again, that's joingelt.com ramit join G-E-L-T.com ramit taxes don't have to be a task with Gelt.

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Natalia, it's so interesting hearing you talk about your optimism because in many ways I am very optimistic about lots of things as well and that has paid off in a lot of ways. It made me very resourceful, very forward looking. But it's interesting to me that you apply that positivity to so many different areas. But what if you applied that Positivity to your own financial relationship here.

I think that now that I'm more conscious of the numbers, and I think that I finally understood why Andres is so nervous about it. I think I'll be more rational in the decisions that we should take as a family on our expenses and think about the future, because it's good that I'm so positive, but I know that I need to be prepared for the worst.

When you think about planning for the worst, how does it make you feel?

I hate it. For me, the worst is that we could die. If we die, that's the worst. If there's something. Something in between, I think we can sort out, and I know that we'll get the money. So I don't like to have that type of conversation because what I'm just thinking is that I don't care about the future, that I'm so emotional and I need to think about the worst. But I don't do it because I hate that. I really don't like that.

That's what I thought. People who are really positive thinkers, they. They find it stupid and boring and just horrible to have to think about the worst.

That's the worst. Yeah, I really don't like it.

People in general, they don't like to floss. Now imagine I tell people you have to think about flossing and read about flossing every day for two hours for the rest of your life. They're like, I don't even like flossing once a year. Why you got to make me read all this stuff? It's so sucks. Andres, that is what Natalia perceives when you talk about planning for the worst. It's not that it's right or wrong. I'm just telling you how she perceives it and why it's been so challenging for her to plan for downside risk even when her own company went through chapter 11. I'm sure you, Andres, were like, okay, finally she's going to get it. But I'm willing to bet it wasn't like that, was it?

Yeah, not even close. I've tried different hammers on the same nail, and I wasn't getting through.

Let me guess. You tried this version of Google spreadsheet, then you tried Microsoft Excel and then some investment chart.

Nothing has worked. I can see why. And again, the comment that I wanted to make before she started talking is her positivity is the reason I married her. We had this inside joke, if you like, between the two of us, that she was the sun, the sunshine to my reign. And I still see it that way. So it's. Yeah, I think I would say it's difficult to understand. That is what is not allowing her to close this. That just really pisses me off inside. It's. I know that if you were 100% convinced, this shit would be sorted out in a couple months. And so that's. Sometimes when we end the discussion, it's like you're just messing with me because I know. And she can tell you the story of how we got married and how she found me a job and I actually moved from Australia to Chile.

I got him a job in Chile when I was in Colombia and he was living in Australia so we could live together in America and in Australia. So that positive I am. That's the level.

So that's the thing. Like I said, you got me a job when we were in three different countries, and you can't really commit to solving this. And of course, I've never said this to her, but that's what I think inside is if you got the same type of result that you had for that, we would have solved this a long time ago.

So the challenge with saying that is that while it may be true, it's really hard to make someone else get resolve that they don't have.

That's why I had never said it.

Yeah. And Natalia, hearing that, Andres commented, if you really wanted to do this, he thinks you would have gotten it done in a matter of two months. And you said, I feel embarrassed because if I wanted this, I think I could. Why don't I want this?

I don't know right now. That's the first thing that I thought is because of ego. That's what I thought. That's what was the first thing that. When I'm not doing this, I think that we have a big difference on this. He has read so much and he knows so much, and I could understand what he's saying if I pay attention, but I would love that I could know more.

So if that's the case. I hear you loud and clear. He has more technical knowledge about this topic. I get it. One view would be that that would make you want to learn. Oh, because I want to be his equal, his partner. But that's not happening. Why do you think that is?

Because I'm so bad to accept when I'm not good at something.

When you became a mom, were you great at being a mom?

No, nothing. And I was. I felt so guilty every day.

Did you get better?

Yeah, finally. But it was hard.

Of course, it Was hard, but one.

Year, eight months ago, you had to. And so you did it. And I'm sure it took.

And I started reading and everything, and now I've given some advice to my friends.

Okay, but let's go back to that moment where you started reading all these books and things like that. Have you done the same with personal finance?

Just now that I got the book and listened to your videos. But I know that I can find the time. And that's what he's being so worried. Like, I know they can do it, but I'm so worried about. I need to be very good at my job, and I want to have some time, Alejandro. I want to have some time with you, so I don't have time for this.

It's not a time issue. You and I both know it's not a time issue. Keep going deeper. First you said I'm not at the same level. Okay, fine. Fair enough. You were not great at being a mom until you became a mom, and.

Then it became a priority example that you could ever. Yeah, I don't know. I think that it's time for me to grow up on this and.

Oh, okay, maybe. But I don't love when you are saying words to yourself like, I know I need to be more responsible. I need to grow up. I need to be less emotional. I don't love it because it feels like you're beating yourself up. And I don't think you would tell one of your friends, hey, it's time to grow up and be less emotional.

Like, would you ever say that?

No, because that's me.

It's not about needing to grow up or be less emotional. If anything, I love hearing how you feel about your money. I love hearing that you want to fly and see your family and see Andres family.

I love that.

I want you to keep that up. But I hear so much worrying about what money could mean to you, specifically about saying no. And because of that, it's so fascinating how you behave with money. One, you avoid talking about it. That we see. But two, in really peculiar ways, you become super committed. Did you notice what happened with the lady telling you about the insurance for your son? And you come home and you're saying, andres, we got to get this insurance. Do you see how peculiar that is? For most of the time, you don't want to look at any of the numbers, but suddenly you're worried about what could go wrong because of a random lady trying to sell you insurance. And here you are like, we, we got to do this particular thing. I want to recommend two things, Andres, for you. I want to suggest that as you open up this new chapter of your financial life, when you communicate with Natalia, you start with money from a place of joy and excitement. If you were to start from a place of joy and excitement, what question would you ask her?

Laughing at myself. It's exactly the opposite of whatever I do. Yeah.

Right. Now, where do you come from? A place of. You come from a place of what?

Scarcity, you mean?

Yeah.

So when you talk to her, when you ask her these questions, deep down, do you think she picks up on that scarcity?

Yeah, of course.

Yeah. So if you were to use other words, joy and excitement, what are a couple types of questions you would ask her?

Yeah. The simple one. How many times would you. You like to travel next year?

Keep going. I love this.

Where do you want to go?

Yeah.

Yeah. Where and when do you want to go?

Yeah.

How many times do you want to go to the restaurants in a month?

This is the start of totally reconceptualizing how they talk about money from a place of scarcity to one of joy and possibilities. And I want to address a common reaction I get when I bring this up. It goes like this. Well, if I ask her how many times she wants to travel, she'll say 10, and we can't do 10. This is the fear that if you ask someone what they really want, they'll say they want the world. And when you can't deliver on that, you're just setting yourselves up for disappointment. I don't love this way of thinking. It's basically saying, let's not talk about what we both want because it might not happen. Guys, that is the definition of scarcity. Just because you and your partner talk about what you want doesn't mean you're going to get all of it. Hey, I want to eat chicken wings for breakfast for the rest of my life. Not going to happen.

But.

But the simple practice of approaching money from a place of possibility changes everything. It shows that you're open, you're listening, and you're genuinely curious. When your partner feels listened to and they listen to you, suddenly you can both make a plan together. And you want to know the biggest secret of all. If you actually follow through on the I will teach you to be rich system, you automate your finances, you earn more, master your psychology, you might discover that you actually can get everything you want and that you just might need to set even bigger goals.

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Just a couple final points I want to mention. With the income you have, you guys have an opportunity to live an Amazing life. However, you have two opposing forces pulling at you. One of them is pulling you because you're both so focused on all the things that could go wrong that you spend an inordinate amount of time in the negative. And that really underlies so many questions that I hear from both of you. What's your ten year plan? Because we might be poor and similarly, we need to buy this insurance because we might die. There's a lot of this negativity being focused over here. I don't love it. I don't love it. What I would love to see is, hey, let's plan out. Best case, middle case, worst case. Let's take it from hot to cool. Hot is we're going to die and.

Our son is going to be alone. That's no good.

All right? You make really poor decisions when that's how you're approaching a financial decision. Cool is saying, you know what? I think it's possible that in the next two or three years one of us might get laid off. So let's make a plan. If we had to do it, could we cut our lifestyle down? That's a conversation that both of you can have.

And you're just like, look, we're a team.

We got a plan for what happens if something goes bad. But you've started by planning all the things that can go well. What if we continue getting raises? What if we manage our expenses? What do we get to do with all this money? The reason you don't save money is that you both hate money right now. You look at it negatively, but if you have a reason, okay, you know what? We'd like to work towards six months of savings, et cetera.

We've already talked about Italy.

Suddenly you will see your savings account start to grow so much. You will naturally be making better decisions about where to eat or how often those kinds of things. You will go from reactive to proactive because you did the work of creating your life.

It's so true. Because we are not seeing the good part of that and say, we're going to save for this trip or for this house or for this whatever. And I think that it makes up the whole difference on my mind that we are not losing our money just paying banks. We are planning something great for us. And I think that way I would definitely save more because I'm looking forward to doing that. And I think that's the key of how my brain works. And he knows me very much. But I think that the approach was so negative. And that's why I got so defensive and it's true we need to be prepared for the worst, but also for the best. That what I think that we can have a great life and keep accumulating things and having experiences. So I really appreciate Ramit for your time.

I'm just sitting here with a smile on my face. I think. I think I just want to thank you. I'm pretty self aware and this conversation was one of those things that we were struggling as a couple. And I'm not saying that it's resolved because this is just the beginning, but it's a process and this is the right step. And I was aware that I was doing something wrong, but I clearly couldn't see it.

I would like to see both of these. You bring out the best in each other because for your son, you can send him to all the tutors you want and get all the nannies you want, but he will learn more from watching how you two live life and use your money.

Hey everybody, this is Ramit. I have one favor to ask of you. I. I really want to hear from you about this episode. If there was something that surprised you, something that opened your eyes, something that really struck you, send me a note. I'd love to hear from you.

I'm on Twitter.

You can DM me on Instagram or if you're on my newsletter, you have my email address and you can send me a note. I read all of them.

I would love to hear at least.

One thing that struck you or support surprised you about today's episode. Thanks for listening.

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I was running late from work and showed up at the office and she was having a conversation with him. And the first thing he was talking about, talking about as I sat down, was how to manage credit card debt now that she has $10,000 of credit card debt. And I was like, you have $10,000 of credit card debt?

Like how I thought I could fix it.

For a long time I kept telling myself, why bring somebody else into this space when it's so awful? I don't want anybody else to feel like this.