98. “We make $280,000. Why does he keep shooting down my dreams?”

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I don't know that he always listens to me. I mean, I know he doesn't always listen to me. I felt like I ran into a brick wall of.

No.

What did he say?

He said we can't afford that. We can't do that. I mean, I felt like someone had popped me like a balloon and I just, I got, I got angry. I mean, I just got really upset and, and I went to the numbers and it was just like, what do you mean we can't afford that? Like we can afford it. No, it, it never does. He's really stuck in a lot of ways and really stuck. Stuck. Playing the same loops in his head and we just play out the same dynamic over and over again and I try really hard to step out of it. We've talked about separating. We just passed our five year anniversary and I would say three and a half of those have been really rocky. It affects our relationship by making me question whether it's the right one.

It makes me feel frustrated because it feels like, okay, we're so far, like we're doing so well and yet we're just so Far away from, like, you know, the sky's the limit. I have worked hard to arrive at where we are, and I feel content. My. My gut feeling is to just, like, stay here and, like, be very protective.

Has your gut ever led you astray?

Yes.

I'd like for you to meet Sarah and Charlie. They're both in their 30s. Sarah is originally from the United States, but now they are both living in Mexico City. Now Sarah wants to live her rich life with Charlie, but Charlie is constantly worried that they will not have enough money.

And as we peel the onion today.

You'Re going to discover lots of fascinating layers behind what's really going on. It all starts with Sarah's recent trip to a beach house. Sometimes you discover you're not living your rich life when you have a taste of it, and then you come back to reality.

I came back from friends bachelorette party. My excitement was, like, 20 out of 10. I'm not a beach person. And Charlie really loves the beach. And I was like, oh, I. Like, I did this great beach thing. It wasn't a specific proposal. It was just, like, banter. I felt like I ran into a brick wall of.

No.

What did he say he can't afford? He said.

He said, we can't afford that. We can't do that. I mean, I felt like someone had popped me like a balloon. And I just. I got. I got angry. I mean, I just got really upset and just. And I went to the numbers, and it was just like, what do you mean we can't afford that? Like, we can afford it.

And did that work?

No, it. It never does.

It never.

It never does. Like, it never does. I felt like I was coming to him with, like, something that I thought he was going to be really excited about because he loves the beach so much, and I'm so pale, I could burn in the moonlight. And so, like, going to the beach is not usually on my radar. And so I thought he was going to. Maybe this time he was going to match my excitement. And I just felt like I couldn't even. I felt like I couldn't even dream with him without getting shot down.

Charlie, what do you remember about that conversation?

I remember she came back very excited, and she was describing how they rented a house on the beach. And she said, like, well, I discovered a way of how I enjoy traveling to the beach. She said, like, we now just need to rent the house. What I imagined is us renting a house that was, like, 90% empty, and I was just paying for, like, something that's Gonna be unused. Like, I don't know, renting an Airbnb that has like five rooms. It's beautiful. It's like, you know, beachfront, has a whatever pool and, and I thought, like, sure, that's enjoyable, but I'm not going to enjoy pay for a house that's like almost empty and it's just us. So I said we can't afford that. Is that true?

You can't afford a five bedroom house?

Well, we can. It just doesn't make sense to me.

But you said we can't afford it.

Yes, that's a bad financial decision. Like that's like throwing away money.

Okay. And by the way, did she say that it was a five bedroom house that she wanted to rent with you?

Not specifically. I don't like to throw away money. Like I hate when we throw away food. I'm gonna remember something like we book a vacation and we ended up just a weekend, that trip for a weekend and we couldn't end up going and I couldn't cancel the hotel. And that's just an example. I don't even know if that actually happened.

But again, I think, what would that make you feel like?

Like disgusted. Like it's like you, what kind of idiot are you? Like to myself, if you throw away.

Food, do you feel the same way?

I certainly don't like it because we work hard for to have the things we have. I'm going to just speak for myself, but I don't come from a higher income family. Like it's very, well, middle class, but I'm certainly doing better than my parents and my family in general. I'm very proud of that. But I'm also very protective of that, I guess.

Huh. So discuss it is a pretty strong word.

Discussion. Yes, I am harsh, like in the way I judge other people because I'm harsh with how I judge myself.

Oh, okay. So you have high expectations for people around you.

Yes, and I do have them for myself. Sarah. Sometimes things that I don't enforce those high expectations of myself. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Well, that's confusing because it sounds like you are holding very high standards for yourself. Like you're, you're verbally beating yourself up.

Let me put this in hypothetical. If, if it was her mistake, I would be very upset. And if it was my mistake, of course I would be upset. But like there's no consequence and like the consequence that she faces is that I get very upset.

Are you compassionate?

No. All right.

Are you demanding?

Yes.

Are you generous?

Yes.

Are you Scarcity oriented?

Yes.

Are you abundant oriented?

I am trying to, but no.

Notice the contradictions. He has high standards for others but not necessarily for himself. They have plenty of money but Charlie says we can't afford it and on and on. And it would be natural for anyone listening or watching this to start judging Charlie. Oh my God, why does he do that? That's so dumb. I would encourage you to hold that thought because we all have contradictions with our money. You have contradictions in the way you think about money. I have contradictions.

We all do.

Some of us are content to ignore these contradictions. A lot of us don't even realize we have them. What I'm most interested in is how Charlie's contradictions are affecting Sarah.

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This is not the first time that I've come to him with an idea that's been hit with a hard no. And then we fight about it. And what I would love is if he then thought about it of like, thought more about interrogating that response or like, trying new methods of like, okay, the next time you bring an idea to me, I'm going to take five seconds to like, center myself and then.

But if, if it were to happen, it will probably happen exactly the same because it's a gut feeling.

Well, I have gut feels a lot. I don't always act on them. Don't you?

Sure.

What's a gut feel you have that you don't act on.

Staying in bed and not go to work?

That's a great example. Okay, we share that sometimes.

Great.

So you get up. And why do you get up when you don't feel like getting up?

Well, there's my responsibility, a commitment that I want to honor.

Yeah. Anything else?

Well, it's also a job, so I get paid. So that's a nice reward as well.

You get paid. And if you didn't go in and you kept sleeping in bed for like two weeks straight, what would happen?

Well, I'll get fired.

Yeah. All right. So you have a responsibility, you have a commitment, you have an incentive, which is money. And you also have consequences of getting fired. Okay. Do you have any responsibility to Sarah in conversations like this?

Yes, I do.

What is that responsibility?

Well, to. To. To engage without whipping my gut feeling, you know, to try and check myself.

Do you believe that? Is that something like you kind of should have, or is that something you deep down believe you have?

I think it's. In order for. To have a functioning relationship, I need to have.

Do you have it?

I'm sure I don't.

Do you have a commitment of any kind with Sarah that you've talked about for these conversations?

Well, now we're trying to have more structured conversations, but I don't think before that, like. No, not necessarily. Okay.

Do you have an incentive? Like you get paid at work. Do you have an incentive in these conversations with Sarah?

Right. Well, the incentive is that. That we're both happy. I would say yes.

And how about the consequence? Do you have any consequences for conversations like this?

Well, yes, the consequence of not having them or avoiding them until they, until we have to have a conversation like this is typically ends up in a fight and, or an argument. And obviously I don't like that.

And then what is there? Is that the only consequence?

So far, yes. Okay, you know.

You know what?

So far, yes, but there, there's gonna be a point or that's not the only consequence. And obviously I don't want to reach that point.

Okay.

That. That point would be what probably is playing up. Okay. Or distancing, splitting up, et cetera.

Okay, got it. Taking it further down, more serious.

Right.

That means I don't want to blame everything on Charlie. He's really stuck in a lot of ways and really stuck. Playing the same loops in his head and stuck with a lot of the same dynamics. And we just play out the same dynamic over and over again. And I try really hard to step out of it. We've been in couples counseling for a couple of years. Like, we've talked about separating. We've. I would say, like, we've been. We just passed our five year anniversary, and I would say three and a half of those have been really rocky. And so it affects our relationship by making me question whether it's the right one.

Charlie's a good example that you can be aware of a problem, but awareness is not enough to change it. This happens a lot with cheap people. They will come to me asking for help. They will complain, I wish I could spend more money. How can I do it? But ultimately they rarely change because deep down, they don't actually think they have a problem. In fact, for a lot of people, they think it's a virtue and there are no real consequences for their behavior culturally.

What are the differences in the way both of you see money? Let's start with Sarah.

I mean, I think there's like culture culture and family culture. I'm from the US and Charlie's from Mexico. Because we grew up in radically different economies. I would say that there's like, some things around just, like, not trusting the economy in Mexico. That's. That, you know, that's really different. And then I would say, like, family culture is really huge. My mom came from, like, not crazy wealthy family, but she came from some wealth. And.

Hold on. How much wealth?

Her great grandfather has a picture in the Smithsonian. Like, we, like.

Well, what does that mean, though? Like.

Like, they had, like, a large custom house on the North Shore of Chicago, my grandparents.

Sounds like a lot of money.

They weren't like, they were multi millionaires, but they were. This wasn't. We're not like, yeah, they were multi millionaires.

We're not talking Jeff Bezos, just multi millionaires. Okay. All right, got it.

So. And then.

Glad I asked.

And I would say, like, but when I was growing up, money, my mom is really bad with money. Money was really insecure. She was involved in a really long term lawsuit that she ended up winning. And we got over a million dollars from that was gone within five years, basically.

What'd she spend it on?

We bought a house in the Bay Area. And.

And she like, what's the problem, though? Houses always go up. Everybody always makes money.

Completely convinced me. I'm terrified of homeowners, you know, but she also, like, played the stock market and she thought that she. And she just. She wasn't. She's someone who's, like, afraid. She literally doesn't open envelopes when they come to the house.

Okay, I get it.

And my dad had, like, a decent amount of money. They got divorced when I was six months old.

Okay.

Yeah.

What did you take away from your childhood with money?

I think I took away, like, two things. That. One, I really didn't want to be like my mom.

Meaning what?

Meaning that I wanted to have stability and security and, like, know that what was happening the next year and the next. Like, I didn't want to drive around gas station to gas station for like, a 3 cent savings.

So number one was you didn't want to be like your mom. You wanted safety. What was number two?

Number two was that I believed I had a fallback. Like, I. Yeah. That I could count on other people. I was very close with my father's father. I always had backup. And so, like, when I went to college and there wasn't enough money, my grandpa cut me a check for the rest of it. And I was gifted small amounts of stocks as a kid growing up, I got us like a very small, I mean, a $30,000 trust fund. When they turned 30, like, I knew that was coming. I wasn't worried about. I wasn't worried. I didn't have, like, deep worry about money.

What'd you do with the 30K?

Oh, it's in a. It's in an index fund.

Wow.

Okay. What age did you invest that?

The day after my 30th birthday.

No kidding. So you knew the money was coming on this particular day, and you were ready to go, and you dropped it into an index fund?

Yeah.

What was your thinking there?

Even though I don't have a good relationship with my father, he is very good with money, and I have relied on him for that. And so, like, he helped me set up a Roth IRA and maybe a year before that or something. And like, he said, if I came up with a thousand dollars, he'd give me a thousand dollars to put in it. And so I already had my Vanguard account, and I have a brother who's one year older than me, and he had already done the thing and looked at, like, you know, the target retirement funds and the VTI and whatever, and he kind of was like, oh, this is what I did. Like, let's look at this together. So I. I knew that was what I was supposed to do.

Cool.

That's great. Good family upbringing, at least in terms of family culture. Educating you around investments, even knowing that investments are real, that it's possible for somebody like you to invest. That's quite savvy. All right. Great work. Charlie, I'm curious about you. What do you remember about growing up with money?

I remember we always had enough, but never to splurge. My dad's a physician, a doctor, gp, and for many years, my dad was a sole income earner. And then my mom went back to work, and then they started a business together. But, like, she primarily does the work on it. Then she became the highest in the home.

So that changed the dynamic.

Oh, it absolutely did. My dad obviously presented that, but it did help me and my brothers have two brothers went through private school and private college.

Yeah, I mean, the resentment is really clear and it's really sad, but the. I mean, physicians in Mexico in. You don't have a specialty. It's really not. It's not like it is in the US or other countries where like, that really solidly puts you in, like, middle. Upper middle class.

His income is very variable because he doesn't. If he doesn't have patients, he doesn't have money.

Oh, it's a More of a modest income.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like more middle class. Yes. That's a good clarification.

From my perspective, Charlie grew up sort of lower middle class. And his mom's ambition and her success really, like, she fought for them to move into the middle, middle class and for them to have things.

When you say that, obviously your dad resented your mom becoming the higher earner. Did he say anything that you remember? How do you know? He obviously resented it.

He never explicitly said that, but he also had the expectation that my mom was still a homemaker while also working full time for the business, which obviously is unrealistic.

So that was things like, you know, why isn't dinner ready? Or something like that.

Yeah.

Okay. Anything else?

Well, for four stars, we lived in an apartment every. It seemed like everybody lived in a house. Some kids in high school had cars we didn't. Like, I didn't have a car until the second year of college. Things like that, like where they went on vacation, what kind of clothes they were.

Like, where did they go on vacation? If they were, let's say, wealthier?

I don't know, to ski in Colorado or, like, to Europe, stuff like that.

How about you?

And we usually went within the country.

And the business started to take off. Give me a sense of what we're talking about here. What changed when your mom started to become a higher earner? What's the scale we're talking about here? And went up by, like, 10% or 200?

No, probably something between 100 to 200.

Okay, I got it. What do you remember changing in your family as your mom's income started to dramatically grow?

I think something positive, which is, I discovered that my mom was ambitious and, like, driven and, like, successful. And honestly, I think the ambition that I have was, like, started by looking at what she did and how successful she was.

That's kind of cool to see your mom in one light. And she sounds like she was a great mom. And then a little bit later in life to see this totally different chapter of her emerge, and she's really good at it. What do you think you took away from the lessons that your parents taught you about money from being a young kid to a teenager?

Well, I, I.

The.

The few explicit conversations that I remember having about money with my dad is credit cards are meant to be used. Like, you spend something and then you gotta have the same amount of money, and you paid it right off. Like, you never carry any debt. And. And to this day, I live like that.

Okay.

So I think that's certainly positive and getting.

Was he a good dad?

I think he tried. He tried hard. He's a human. He's flawed like everybody. But I think as a child, at least I. I don't have huge resentment.

Okay, that's an interesting answer.

Well, it's because later on I do.

Oh, is that right?

But a part of that is. Is that, like, that he saw that part of my mom, too. And instead of, like, accepting and celebrating it, he got resentful. While obviously, at the time also benefit from, like, you know, having higher income.

Makes it a little more confusing, right?

It absolutely does.

He's benefiting from it, but resenting it.

That's unfair. That's unrealistic. Like, he wanted to have his cake and eat it too.

Okay. And so what happened?

They're still together. They still bicker about money every day. Like, what.

What? How long have they been married for?

Oh, Jesus. Too long.

Like, a long time, right?

40 years. Yes.

40 smooth years.

Yeah. I mean, a Catholic country. There. There's a lot of, like. There's still a lot of guilt around that.

Oh, you don't say.

Okay.

Yeah.

All right. So they bicker about money. If you were to sit down with them and have lunch with them, how many minutes until they would bicker about money in front of you?

I. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

All right.

Got it. And at this point, is it almost.

Like they thrive off of it?

It's like a sitcom.

Without the laugh track.

We literally say it's like George Costanza's parents, Like. I don't know.

I know exactly what you're referring to. Okay.

They're like, yeah. Sarah doesn't like when I say this, but, like, some family members have told me, your parents have everything to be happy, and they just choose not to be, which is obviously a simplification.

Do you believe that?

Yes, partially.

Sarah, why don't you, like, when he says that?

No, No. I mean, I could think of, like, a million examples of them. I. Bickering is a very polite way to put it because I didn't grow up with, like, two adults in the household. It was, like, a real. It was a real shock to me to see, you know, as someone who, like, saw the beauty of divorce, I. I believe that your parents could be a lot happier if they. I mean, I think that they're. They're in the wrong relationship for their desires. So it doesn't. It doesn't, like, bother me. I just don't think, like, money and economic success is, like, the. That's. That helps, but it's not. They. I don't. I don't think they have everything it takes to be happy because they don't have respect for each other.

Imagine the effect that Charlie's childhood had on him. He grew up well aware that the people around him made more money than his family. Then his mom started to make more than his dad, which led to resentment and now they have been fighting for decades. Charlie sees money totally negatively. It's filled with guilt and overwhelm and resentment and envy. I wonder if he's made the connection between his upbringing and how he treats money today. Let's find out.

There's this myth that if you rent, it means you haven't made it. I don't really believe that I rent and I want you to know that you are not a failure if you choose to rent.

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Join the loyalty program for renters@joinbuilt.com Ramit that's J O I N B I L T.com Ramit and make sure you use our URL so they know that we sent you. When I talk to new business owners, I hear a lot of the same motivations. I want to make extra money. I want more freedom. I want flexibility. But I will tell you something that I've never heard. I want to start a business so I can fill out a bunch of tax forms. That sounds like my hell. The good news is you don't need to be a tax expert to start your own business. Instead, you can use Gusto, this episode's sponsor. Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one. It's remote, friendly and it's incredibly easy to use so you can pay, hire onboard and support your team from anywhere. They offer Automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, workers comp, 401k matches. You name it, they can help. Plus, it's quick and easy to switch to Gusto. Just transfer your existing data and get up and running fast with no hidden fees and no surprises. Try gusto today@gusto.com ramit and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll@gusto.com ramIt once more, gusto.com ramit so now turning to both of you, Both of you, the products of the families and the environments and the cultures that you grew up in, you meet. You live now in Mexico, and you both are high earners. In fact, you're high earners by U.S. standards. According to the phrase I just heard a couple minutes ago, you have every reason to be happy, and you are. You. You appear to be very happy together, but there's this conflict about money. Charlie, what would you say in a sentence or two about what you believe the central conflict is here?

I. I think a lot of it is the. The difference. Ambition I have worked hard to have or to. To arrive at where we are. And I feel content. And my. My gut feeling is to just, like, stay here and, like, be very protective.

She's more ambitious than you, and that makes you feel, what.

Maybe insecure or more than. More than mitrous? I would say that she's much more confident.

Okay, this is.

Which is not a bad thing, but I'm.

I'm not. Okay. Okay, hold on. Before you go off into this whole thing, does this strike you as having any similarities with any couples we've talked about? About 90 seconds ago.

Yes. Who?

My parents make the connection for me.

Yeah. Well, she. She has a vision for. For something grander.

And did your mom have that?

Yes.

Okay. And when she put it into place, what was your dad's reaction?

It was. It wasn't necessarily welcoming.

What was it?

Resetful.

Have you ever made that connection before?

Not necessarily, no.

Okay. Hearing that, thinking about it for the first time, what does your gut, which is so expressive, what is it telling you right now?

It makes me feel very uncomfortable because I obviously have very harsh feelings about my dad. Active.

Okay. Do you want to be like your dad?

No.

Sarah, did you ever see this connection before?

Oh, my God, yes.

She. She was waiting. Please ask me. She was, like, ready to go.

Really? That was my best I could do to hold my time. Yeah, I. I actually, I would say, not infrequently say to Charlie that I feel like he's I mean I feel like I've said this in the last two weeks that I feel like you're reenacting a play of your parents marriage.

But it seemed like when I said it to him he was completely caught off guard.

I don't know that he always listens to me. I mean, I know he doesn't always listen to me.

The way I'm envisioning it in my head is mom or Sarah pulling ahead, like pulling a sled ahead and dad or in this case Charlie trying to resist. I don't want to be pulled along and resisting in very interesting and peculiar ways. It could be resentment, it could be getting jealous, it could simply be saying we can't afford that. But it might come out in so many peculiar ways. How does this metaphor strike you, Charlie?

I see it especially in the latest in the last comment of just like coming from a car city viewpoint of saying like we shouldn't do this or that's a waste of money or like let's not be wasteful.

Sarah, how does this metaphor strike you?

I love it. I like, I think it's absolutely accurate and I think it's because it's like it's all areas of it's money is one of them. But it's like all the things I want to do with money. And it's like yeah, he's there slamming, like slamming his feet into the snow, saying no. And I'm like, but look at all this beautiful white snow ahead of us. Look at how fortunate we are.

Stick with that for a second. Look at all this beautiful white snow. So you're out a little bit ahead of him and you can see this beautiful white powder. And to you, what does the snow feel like?

Oh, it feels like freedom.

Two people talking about the same object but experiencing it completely differently. And their responses are shaped by their experiences in childhood, their views of money, even their feelings in general. Can you think of something that you and your partner have seen but experienced completely differently? I wonder if that would be an interesting topic for you to discuss tonight.

All right, let's talk about the day to day. So where do what is one area besides this beach house that you both seem to look at differently when it comes to money, food, housing, expense.

We end up being very on the same page with how we want to spend our money. It just kind of takes a lot of fighting to get there and it takes a lot of like weird negotiation. Even though I feel like we kind of want the same things.

Thing that I would say is like I know I don't think either of us are, like, into budgets, but, like, because everything adds up whenever we do an actual, like, some of, like, the expenses that we have feels like, holy shit, we're spending a lot.

You think you're spending a lot right now? You know, I've looked at your spending, right?

Right.

Like, your fixed costs are, like, in the 30s. I'm like, what are you talking about, dude? What? Look at. He's not even answering my question. He looks away. Charlie, what the hell are you talking about? Your fixed costs are 34%. I'll pull it up right now.

I mean, I have it right here, too.

34%. Is that a lot?

I'm not used to spending more. Like.

Like, are you used to making as much as you make?

It's my income that's new. I was unemployed for a long time.

Wow, that's so surprising. Her income went up and there was an inability to adjust. Have I heard this story before? Anybody? Anybody?

As a reminder, they live in Mexico City. Let me run through the numbers with you. Sarah's income is 11,500 per month gross. Charlie's income is 12,000 monthly gross, plus he gets a bonus. Their total annual income, $282,000 plus a bonus. Their assets are $46,000. Their investments are $295,000, and they invest 31% of take home. Their savings are $43,000.

They have zero debt.

Their net worth is $384,000, and their fixed costs, as we mentioned, are 34%.

So you've got more money than virtually anyone makes in Mexico. You two make a very high income. Do you acknowledge that, Charlie, that you make a lot of money?

I do.

That didn't sound like. Yes.

That was like.

Hold on, let me. Let me try to replay that. Do you acknowledge that you make more than roughly 99% of people in your country?

I do, but.

And then you jumped right to the but. Because I know. Just give me the but, because I know you don't believe that you do. Go ahead, tell me why you don't really make that much money.

No, I. I statistically know that we are very, like, extremely well off.

Statistically. Okay, go on, tell me now. Tell me the thing that actually matters.

But my problem is that I don't look at the 99. I look at the rest of the 1%.

Oh, wow. Okay. And. And what does that do to you?

Like, makes me feel frustrated because it feels like, okay, we're so far. Like, we're doing so well, and yet we're just so far away from like, you know, the. The sky's the limit. Not. I don't want to be Jeff Bezos.

But, you know, finish the sentence.

But I would like to have more.

I have a question. How much is enough? How much is enough to save?

Charlie, that. That's the point. Like it's. It's completely rational, but, like, I don't have a number.

What do you have?

The answer is as much I can.

Well, why don't you just go back and live with your family and save even more? Why do you guys live. Oh, Sarah, what does that look on your face?

Oh, he lived with his family until he was 27.

That's a cultural difference.

Okay, the cultural doesn't count, Sarah. Don't try to throw that in here.

No, that is. That was. That's. Come on, come on, give me some American.

Well, I don't know. Well, hold on. In India, you know, people live with their parents for a long time. What's the deal over there in Mexico, Charlie? Is that common?

There is the same.

All right, I'm not going to count this cultural thing. That was a nice try, Sarah. Okay, Nice try, Charlie. I mean, you want to save more because saving is. What would be the end of that sentence? Saving. Money is virtues is good.

There's also like a lower limit because I also want to enjoy my life. I don't. I don't just want to work and so save 100%.

Tell me about that. What gives you enjoyment as it relates to money?

It, quite frankly, not having to look at the price of things. Like, we go when we go out to dinner because it feels like freedom. Because I. That was never the case growing up.

Okay. You and me the same. I also love that. I love going out to a restaurant. I don't even look at the price of the menu. I go, that looks good and that looks good. Bring them both. Feels amazing still to this day. Okay, so you got that feeling. All right, I share that. Sarah, you share that feeling too?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I would say travel is a big one. Even though we do look at the price more. Like when we're just planning trips. Like it doesn't. We don't. We planned our entire honeymoon around a three Michelin star restaurant. So it doesn't mean.

Whoa, which way? Which one?

Austeria Francescana.

Where's that?

It's in Modena.

Italy? Yeah.

Oh, my God, how cool. And how was the experience?

It's amazing. 50 out of 10.

Look at that. It was visible. The reaction when I asked that question. That was cool. So would you say you're both foodies?

Yeah.

Yes.

When you two are thinking about food, a restaurant, how does money play into that?

Like, it plays out positively because we. We have exactly what you described. Like, we just go and, like, we have the whatever, the duck or the like, we don't. Thankfully, Sarah doesn't drink or not a lot. So, like, she always says she's a cheap date.

Thankfully. Why thankfully? Because if she did drink, what things will.

Like, dinners will be more expensive here in Mexico. Easily double the size of the bill. Double.

And how much is a bill for the two of you when you go out to a restaurant? Give it to me in, like, US dollars.

Maybe like 100, 120.

Okay. That's a lot. Right?

On the high end. We like.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Frequently eat for, like, under $50.

Okay, 50 to 100 bucks. And just so out of curiosity, you know, if she were to drink and you guys were to get the bottle or whatever, it would take the check to, let's say 2, 220 bucks. Let's just say, what would that do to your finances?

Nothing. Really?

Really nothing at all. Right. Like, you make that much in interest. So I'm curious about that word, thankfully. Can you metaphorize that for me, Charlie? What were you just doing right there when you said that? Look at me. You notice how it comes out in peculiar ways, Right?

Right.

It's interesting.

Don't think you can hide the way you feel about money. The way you feel about money is going to leak out in hundreds of subtle ways, from a subtle hand gesture to an eye roll to an unfortunate word choice. And living with your family, who observes everything you say and do for decades, they're going to know exactly who you are and how you feel about money. You can't hide it. Charlie is fearful and anxious and worried about money. And this leaked out in the most unexpected of places when he said that thankfully his wife doesn't order drinks when they go out.

Why?

She's a cheap date. Thankfully, she doesn't order drinks. This is a couple who makes about $300,000 a year living in Mexico City. The solution here is not to ignore your feelings. It is to confront them and to work on your emotions and your money psychology directly. If you feel guilty about spending money, I put together a free guide you can use to start feeling better about money and to stop feeling so guilty spending your money. You can get it@iwt.com guilty and I'll link the guide in the show notes.

Let Me see if I can interpret this correctly. Charlie, tell me if I'm getting this right. So it's. We need to save more because saving is virtuous and saving is good. If we were to go on that vacation, that would be wasteful. And if we w. Things add up and if we were to keep wasting money, we might end up with zero, and that would be tragic. Am I getting that right so far?

Well, I think you're characterizing well how. What I said. But now that you say it, I see that it doesn't make sense.

Why not?

Because it's not so extreme. Like, you can do both. You can save and also spend.

Okay. Remember, Charlie, what your family says. Your parents have everything they should be happy for, and they choose. Choose to be unhappy. That's kind of ringing in my ears. Yeah.

I think when I said that Sarah doesn't like when I say that. It's because I have said that about us too.

One of the things I hear, Charlie, is a lot of feelings. I like hearing you express that. These are feelings. I also hear a lot of the word gut. My gut. You trust your gut?

Yes. Why? Because it does help me, along with other things, to. To get to where we are at.

Are you more intuitive or are you more quantitative when it comes to making decisions?

Definitely more intuitive, I would say.

Has your gut ever led you astray?

Yes. Like what? Taking care of myself. I was sick, 29. I got diagnosed with cancer. And I don't know if it was a gut thing, but, like, I just. I like it. I had no idea how to handle it, like, because my parents were or are physicians. Like, I never really had, like, proper care until it was extremely needed. And all of that was like.

A.

Learning experience at the worst possible time.

What's the takeaway from that? I'm trying to understand the takeaways.

This is not a gut feeling. I don't know why I'm necessarily lumping them together, but the impulse to not take care of myself or to prioritize other things like working or whatever else over health is not a good impulse.

One sec. Sarah, right now, are there areas of your personal health that you think you should be doing better at?

Absolutely. Okay.

Like what?

I. Well, there. I have known for many years that I have had sleep apnea, but only last week I got around getting the study done in order to get whatever care, whatever machine or treatment, whatever it is.

Why? Why now?

Why.

Why last week?

I mean, it felt like he was the. The lowest hanging fruit and the. The one that could have the easiest impact, positive impact in my life.

But why last week, after five plus years, did you decide to do it?

Honestly, Because I. I was like, it's a. It's a very straightforward answer. I, as I understood, you had to go to a hospital or a clinic and spend the night there, and I didn't want to because I have PTSD from staying in the hospital for. For being sick and. But thankfully I found a place where they actually give you the device and you can do it at home. So, like. But. Because I never took that first step of actually asking.

Yeah.

Like.

I have so many questions right now. The cancer. How are you now?

I. I am okay. Like, I'm in remission. I'm not in treatment. I. There's nothing that it affects my day to day life.

Fantastic. Okay. I'm glad to hear that. And the apnea, it sounds like you got studied. Hopefully they'll give you something to help. Okay, great. How does it feel having gone for the night, got the apnea study. How does that feel?

It feels like a. Like a weight off my shoulders.

Nice. Nice. Did you think about money when it came to the apnea treatment?

Not recently. But I do know that the machines can be expensive, but honestly, I. I don't care what the price is, but I'm willing to pay for it.

Wow. So you don't care what it is? You'll pay anything?

Yes.

Okay, so can we go back to this beach conversation? Because I'm totally fascinated with it. Charlie, after everything we've talked about just now, I want you to zoom out. I want you to take the old Charlie, whose first gut reaction to Sarah was to say, what?

We can afford it. Like, have you ever heard the expression, like killing a fly with a cannon instead of a flight sweater?

Yeah, I get it. Yeah.

Like it's overkill.

Like, question. If your apnea doctor told you you need to spend, I don't know, 4,000 bucks on some specialty treatment, would you kill a fly or use the cannonball? Nuclear.

Whatever. I mean, yeah, in that case, it wouldn't be because, like, that's the. That's what I need.

That's what you need. Oh, but you don't need it. I mean, you've been doing without it for so many years. You're still alive, right?

Charlie just said it took him five years to get his sleep apnea taken care of because he hates hospitals. Now, I understand he's had bad experiences with hospitals. For someone making $300,000 a year, this problem can be solved with one phone call. The doctor could come to their house. Hell, the doctor could come to their beach house while they're on vacation. This is a problem money can solve. But Charlie would have never discovered this. He would have never even thought of it. Because his restrictive view on money is paralyzed and terrified of living a worse life by spending too much money. Ironically, while holding on to that money and actually living an increasingly worse life with sleep apnea. This is one of the reasons that in my own personal 10 money rules I say unlimited spending on health. Now, you don't have to have that rule, but I want you to realize that your rich life matters. It's not a joke. It's something to be taken seriously. And it can mean the difference between living and dying.

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What do you think might be a good way to respond to Sarah who comes and says, oh my God, I had such an amazing experience at this beach house. We got to do that. What would you say?

I. I love that you had a good time. Let's look into options for us.

Okay, that's definitely better than what she said. I'll give you a round of applause for that one. That feels. Look at that smile on Sarah's face. Even Charlie. Okay, okay. What'd you just do there, Charlie, when you said that?

Well, not starting with no.

What I might do just to add a slight wrinkle to what you said is I might meet her excitement with a similar level of excitement. So she goes, oh my God, I just had an amazing time with my friends. We got to stay at a beach house like that. You go, wow, that sounds amazing. What was like, tell me about it. Do you have pictures? Do you think you could meet her at that level?

Yes.

Awesome. It's not even about saying, let's open up airbnb and start looking. It's not even about that. It's just like, oh my God, this sounds so good. I didn't even know you like the beach. And how do you think she would react?

Positively. I mean, better. The way she reacted.

I would have loved it. I mean, I would have. I would have become even more excited. I would have felt like we were like having fun in that moment. Like that the fun was continuing of my trip into that, sharing that experience with you.

Now, what I'm not saying is that I want you guys to go out and buy a private jet and only fly. I'm not saying that at all. In fact, I don't even think that's in the realm of possibility, both financially, but even emotionally. Charlie's not about to drop, you know, 75 GS to take a one way trip. It's not going to happen.

Do we all agree? If I ever had it, I would.

I do think that you're playing small. You're playing small. And it's actually a tragedy. It's a tragedy for several reasons. One, it's impacting your health. Okay? That's obvious. And that is the most important. Two, it's perpetuating a relationship that you yourself have said you don't want to do. And three, it's causing serious issues in this relationship. You know, the craziest thing of all. You actually have the money. Look, you have more than enough money. So clearly we all know that this is not simply a spreadsheet issue. Have you two ever talked about what your joint rich life vision is?

Yes.

Okay, what is it? We.

Well, we joke a lot about when we retire having a goat farm in Portugal.

Oh, that sounds cool.

Yeah, I mean, it's. We've never been to Portugal.

Oh.

Nor that we have raised animals.

Went from sounding awesome to sounding like hell. All right, you guys are in for it.

No, no, we'll hire someone to take care of. Yeah, no, I just, I think we've talked about, you know, I'm an immigrant to Mexico and I. I have lived in other. Lived in other places more temporarily. I've been in Mexico for 10 years now and I love the idea of like living in Rome for a year or living like somewhere else for years. We've talked about that.

So I like the idea of hiring the personal assistant and hiring a cook so we can get more out of our day to day lives. Like, I feel like that's something that'll be great for both of us.

We've talked about, like, being more intentional about travel and like me twisting Charlie's arm so he uses all his vacation days And I think that's a big part of our rich life.

Oh.

Why is it a convincing thing? Is that a normal pattern?

Yes. Oh, that's 100. It's always the pattern is me.

You go to him, you say, I want to do this. He goes, no, that sounds like too much.

And then convince him, and then we go and do it, and he tells me is like the most amazing thing he's ever done before. And then we repeat the pattern the next time.

Is this castanza, like, pattern serving you? No. I wonder where you learned this from.

Yeah.

We can keep this dynamic up. Sarah can keep coming to you, proposing beach houses and flights and restaurants or whatever, and you can keep saying no, and then you end up doing it or not. What happens if you keep this up?

I mean, there's. There's a lot of, Like, I want to call it emotional erosion. Like a lot of stress and bickering and not fighting, but, like, arguing on things that we don't actually need to argue about.

Yeah.

And. And. And also probably less enjoyment overall.

Yeah, I think so. I mean, with the amount of how hard you two have worked, the physical things that you've gone through, immigration is not easy culturally, you know, ingratiating. There's a lot of stuff that you two have gone through, therapy, which you continue and I think is amazing. That's awesome to me. I ask myself, what do I get? What do I get from working hard, from cross cultural, all this stuff? You know, what do I get? And if it's not amazing, then what am I doing? Okay. Are you scared of running out of money, Charlie?

No.

No. All right, Sarah.

No.

No, you're not. I know. You're not afraid, are you? Do you feel confident that Charlie means it?

Yeah, I do. I. I do feel confident that he means that. I think for me, what I would love to hear, you know, I think in our relationship, a lot of the problems are.

Tell him, Charlie.

I think. And I said to you. A lot of the problems, I think, are kind of beautifully captured by the, like, sledding analogy and not just around money, but, like the sticking the feet in the ground and wanting to be persuaded.

All right, so sometimes if you fall into the normal pattern that you've developed over time, which is what can go wrong. We're going to run out of money. That's too much. That's wasteful. What will the two of you do about that?

I would say to myself, done. Don't let that. Don't let that take over as to what will be the answer, because that is not based on any rational or even desire. Like, I want to meet Sarah, not at a midpoint. Like I want to be where Sarah is on the same channel and same, like, kind of excitement and. And they'll feel great.

Is it possible to change?

I think so.

If anything. Oh, my God. We've built the financial side of our household to be so conservative that already we are investing 31%, which is way higher than almost any couple I speak to. Okay. Know that your fixed costs are lower than almost any couple I've spoken to. You haven't even included a potential $70,000 bonus. Amazing. You two make $300,000 a year living in Mexico City, and you've already saved up hundreds of thousands of dollars in your 30s, and you're going to keep saving. So you've built margin of safety upon margin of safety. My spirit suggestion for you is that you go ahead and start living your rich life today and tomorrow. What a tragedy to wait for the Portugal goat farm. You know, go there now, go visit, have a good time. You two. You two have a very varied and rich life. You love food, you love travel, you love family. Let's go ahead and prioritize that right now. That's the way I see it. Yeah.

Yeah.

In other words, if I ever hear you arguing about a 500 expense, I'm gonna come over there and cause some real trouble. What do you all think about that?

You're right.

Come on down. We'll take you on a taco tour.

I spent extra time with Sarah and Charlie and we got into the very specific details of their rich life. We talked about what they love. Food, pedicures, massage, convenience in their life. We added all of these things. We set up a rich, regular schedule for when they would get them, and they still had over $11,000 a month of guilt free spending. This is how you go from defense to offense with your money. And now I want to share the follow ups that they both sent me. Let's start with Sarah. Sarah said, I was surprised by how quickly you saw recurring patterns in our relationship that were playing out in our finances. While I have felt that Charlie was unintentionally reenacting some of the dynamics between his parents, and I didn't understand its role in our finances and financial decision making. Hearing you point that out was incredibly validating for me and I know it made a lasting impression on him. In our call, I struggled to articulate my vision for a rich life. I had been hyper focused on maximizing our investments and savings and had been on autopilot with our spending. I loved how you pushed us to make quick decisions about easy ways to spend money on improving our health and quality of life. We spent the weekend talking about how we can implement those decisions asap. When we revisited our CSP a few days later, we still hit a few bumps in the road and at times I felt like I was pulling Charlie along, but I was able to articulate that in a new way that felt like it helped us course correct. During the conversation, I was thrilled that Charlie suggested we increase our spending in a number of areas, stood by the decisions we made on the call, had and never once said we can't afford that. That was a major win. During our call, I was caught off guard by your comment that Charlie and I often monologue at each other instead of passing the ball back and forth. That immediately resonated as true and a terrible pattern we are both eager to break. As we revisited our csp, we both made a more conscious effort to ask each other questions and be more collaborative than we had done the first time around.

Well done Sarah Charlie, he writes.

I knew the subject of my parents relationship around money was going to come up, but I didn't expect to focus on it so much. I suppose it has had a much larger influence on my behavior than I realized before. I was positively surprised by how well Ramith helped us steer the conversation. I feel like we've had similar conversations in the past with a lot of conflict and not a ton to show for it. For me, the main takeaways were two first, that my negativity and fearfulness, AKA cautiousness, affects my wife and my relationship and second, that we can lead a grander and richer life than the one we currently have without making giant changes because we're actually well off and in a comfortable position. And that is something to embrace and celebrate. I realized in hindsight that talking about our personal finances makes me uncomfortable in general. No wonder, as my parents frequently argued about the subject. While that is something I need to keep working on on my own, I realized that avoiding the subject also leads to a negative outcome. I want to thank Sarah and Charlie and before you go, I want to remind you that I am going to be answering your questions about this episode on our new weekly newsletter. Use the link in the show notes below so that you can ask your questions anything about this episode and you can sign up for this new newsletter, which I will send you the first issue of this Saturday. Thanks for listening to I Will Teach youh to Be Rich. I'm Ramit Sethi. Please follow the show on every Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven't read I will teach you to be rich my book. Pick up a copy. You can get it at any bookstore or any library and it will show you the specific tactics for how to build the I will teach you to be rich system into your personal finances.