Natalie Cartwright - COO and Co-Founder at Finn.AI

3, 2, 1.

Hey, what's up everybody? My name is Ray joining us again for our founder stories. Really excited to have Natalie Cartwright on. She is a, I guess a industry leader when it comes to artificial intelligence and super smart young lady and a good friend. So Natalie, thanks for joining us on founder journeys and just please tell our audience a little bit about yourself and the industry that you're in and about Fin AI.

Thanks so much for having me, Ray. It's so nice to see you, even if it is virtually. My name like you said is Natalie. I often go by Nat Cartwright. I am the co founder and chief operating officer at finai and we build virtual financial assistance specifically for the retail banking experience. So we build an AI product. We've got a natural language processing engine that understands how you speak to your bank, but we overlay that with a whole product so that we get the best experience and are able to deflect calls from banks. So I am really interested in the financial services sector. I think that there's a lot of room and opportunity in this AI world and I think that artificial intelligence is the next best thing that's going. What I spend the large majority of my time doing is running the company. But I also have the privilege and pleasure of sitting on our provincial AI board. So I'm one of the directors of AI NBC and I sit on the AI Advisory panel for Canada as well.

I've seen Fin AI evolve over the years and yourself evolve as an entrepreneur. And it didn't really start with AI. It was definitely a fintech product, but it was Peso. Peso was the original app and if I recall it was about microtransactions and peer to peer lending. But as much as that was proliferating in the US it was not as highly leveraged and used getting tongue tied here in Canada. So tell us about that evolution.

That's right. So our first business model was peer to peer payments for the Canadian market. And we were limited to the Canadian market because of the payment rails. And you're right that this product was available not just in the US Venmo would be the product that we were replicating from the US market, but it was everywhere. The first time I ever transferred money to anyone with my cell phone was in 2006 when I lived in Kenya and I used a product there called emp. So you could transfer money seamlessly to your friend after dinner or after you'd taken a taxi together or done whatever you'd done. And so my business partners and I thought, well, it's a great idea. We should do this for the Canadian market. And we did that for a couple of years. I would say that we were moderately successful. We had about 10,000 downloads and we transferred roughly a million dollars of micropayments between Canadians. And it turns out that's a terrible business idea for the Canadian market. So we like to call that our two years of learning.

When I saw that coming together, I was like, oh, about time. Like I see this being leveraged in the US like it's about time it happened in Canada. And making transaction and payments. Anybody that's planned like a group outing or a group vacation knows the pain it is to try to, okay, hey, you owe me 20 bucks for gas. We gotta split whatever charges for renting the boat. We were missing that type of user experience. So why didn't it work?

I think it's one of these interesting things where often kind of me too or copycat business models are really impactful. And we see lots of businesses that work in different markets and it's always important to think about what's different about different markets. And there was a few different reasons that it didn't work here. The first is that the Canadian market's pretty small. Overall, we were really excited. We thought we could win the Canadian market. And what we realized was that it was going to take investor money to do that. And even we got some investor money. But when we went out to raise larger amounts with the pitch that we're going to win the Canadian market, the reaction we got was even if you win the Canadian market, we don't care. Which was very difficult feedback to hear. But eventually we did hear that feedback. I think that the second piece is that if you look at our financial services sector, particularly our banking sector, it's very concentrated. We really have a small handful of banks that control a lot of it. So being able to access payment rails is very difficult. There wasn't any. So we would have had to build that ourselves. And that was a whole nother piece of work. And then I think in general Canadians are, are, tend, tend to have pretty good systems in place. Our banking system was built a long time ago in a tech forward way. Canadians have their ways of transferring money and what we, what we see is that sometimes tech adoption is a little bit slower here than in some parts of the world. So for example, when I was transferring money over with my cell phone in 2006 In Kenya, 50% of the population was doing the same thing. And so I think you just see sometimes slower adoption here. Because of. In different segments, just because of how the markets have evolved. So the business model didn't work, but it was incredible learning. We did have very, very early pieces of artificial intelligence in that product, which was how we ended up doing the product that we have today that is much more interesting. And we learned how to work really well together as a team. We had an incredible group of people. This company is the same founders, it's the same cap table. And the investors, fortunately, really liked our team. And when we decided to make the pivot, they doubled down and reinvested in us because they thought that we would be able to succeed. And I think that we've been able to prove that we can, at least to date. We still look forward to achieving a.

Lot more together, because I know the history of Peso. There are ups and downs and challenges as being a founder. And you said it right there. Getting those interviews or those meetings and then having the investors or the stakeholders saying, yeah, we don't actually care if you win the Canadian market or being faced with, well, the banks are not going to allow us to do this or put these roadblocks in place. How do you overcome that negative response to your business and come out of it with a pivot that is wildly successful now?

It's hard. It's very difficult. I think it's hard to pick yourself back up. And if I'm really honest, I think that probably the time that I most appreciated my business partners, although I appreciate them every day, was during that pivot. It was really hard emotionally. You feel like you failed. Right. You're very publicly associated with something that is very publicly failing, or at least publicly within the sphere. At the time, my network of people, my sister was going around to bars trying to get people to download it. My brother had made all these intros for me. Our MBA class was. Was around us. Yeah, it's your network of people. And there were lots of days that I really did not feel like picking myself back up. I did really want to call it quit. And my business partner is delightfully optimistic. He has just always got something positive to say, and I really felt committed to that team. And I think that there was lots of days when I relied on his optimism. And I know there was lots of days when he relied on my optimism. And so I think that that teamwork was really essential. We would joke sometimes, okay, today is my day to be depressed. But you, you're going to have to hold it together for us. And so having having the belief and the support of our board members around us who did see us working effectively. I think that despite the fact that the business model was not one that was going to succeed in this market, we executed well on that. And I think one thing I'm very proud of to this day is the integrity with which we executed on that and being very deliberate in how we, how we approached it and how we ensured that we were careful with people as we were closing things down. A lot of the people around you like everything. It's always who's around you and who supports you and how much belief and faith do you have in each other.

Surrounding yourself with like minded people, people that understand what you're going through and always say misery loves company. And so surround yourself with people that will understand the pain and challenges that you're going through. Because you can accomplish so much more when you know that you have a support network around you. But you're never going to avoid those days. Like there are like, I still have those days where I wake up with like, why the hell am I doing this? Why am I putting myself through this? I can just go take off to Puerto Rico or Colombia and just chill on a beach somewhere.

It doesn't matter if you're an entrepreneur or whatever you're doing, you always want to surround yourself with great people who are going to be honest and pull you forward. And I would just caveat that with my two founding business partners. And I have, I think we share the same values. We've got really similar perspectives on how to run a business and sort of how we expect to work together. Partly that we've had to learn over time, but we have entirely opposite skill sets and ways of working, which I actually think is a really great asset because there's things that I'm great at, but there's things that I'm not great at. And we just trade off on different jobs or different responsibilities, depending on whose skills we think are best going to suit that. So I love that values piece and, and looking for people who can compliment me in the areas that I'm just not going to be great at.

Let's talk about the areas that you are great at. I do know that you're a very highly educated woman and you probably had your choice of a lot of different career paths and a lot of opportunities. Why entrepreneurship? What drew you into entrepreneurship? And we've obviously learned a little bit about the challenges at the company. But what about you and what you had to overcome to thank you.

I am, I am well educated. I have two masters behind me. I Used to work with the UN in Geneva. And my plan was to do an MBA and then to go back to that job in Geneva with the un. That was very comfortable and a wonderful place to work. I got a bit sidetracked and interested in entrepreneurship and part of what enabled me to do that was the work that I did before. In that I saw an exceptional amount of real true poverty and people who lived very different lives than most people. Most people I know. What I realized was I do come from privilege. Most people I know come from privilege. I will not worry about eating tomorrow. And, and part of that was very liberating in that, yes, I can go and start a company and there's some risk associated with it, but at the end of the day, what, what am I risking? I'm risking. I did, I did move back in with my parents in my early 30s. To be able to do this, that's, that's not a huge risk. You know, I risked some, some money. We didn't take salaries for a couple of years and like I said, found ways to work around that. But I was not risking my personal safety or my personal, my psychological well being or my ability to feed myself. And so just that perspective, I think gave me a lot of freedom in it feeling much less risky than it might otherwise feel. Once you start, there's a lot of emotion that goes through it. It's, especially when you're early and you kind of have a dream and you haven't yet reached traction. It's amazing how quickly once you get some traction, people are very impressed and there's lots of kind of excitement around and maybe some media. But before that you get a lot of people thinking that you're crazy and you really doubt yourself. And that is challenging because you do sort of wonder, have I gone crazy or is this a really good idea and how are we going to land? And I went from traveling business class, meeting heads of state one year to the next year. Literally being in a T shirt with the peso logo on it out at UBC, handing out cards, being rejected continually by 18 year olds and sort of going home and thinking like this, what am I doing with my life?

So it's a big hit to your ego. Like I've had to do this stuff as well. It's one of those things where you wonder, did everybody have to go through this or is it just me? But you realize, especially for me now sitting in this scene, no, everybody has to go through this. It's a bit of an ego check, but you have to like our model, get shit done is just do what you have to do to get yourself to that next milestone.

Absolutely. And I think something that I'm increasingly realizing is that it doesn't. It doesn't end. It's just. It's kind of a reframe. So in my past jobs when I was an employee, I had sort of a defined scope of work, and that's what I was responsible for. And I would. There were certain things that other people took care of that maybe were less attractive, but there was also some really exciting things that other people took care of that I didn't get to participate in. And I think something that is true when it's your own company, whether you're early stage or not, is that you're responsible for everything. And so to this day, so we're about 50 people. I'm the chief operating officer at our company. If there's something that needs to be done and there's no one who's doing it, it's ultimately still my responsibility. So I get to do some really fun things, and I get to do things I would never otherwise get to do. And it may be a typical job, but I still hold the buck for making sure that the office is tidy or that things are done. And we've got people to do different parts of that. But when there's no one else around, it's still you. It's your company.

Somebody's got to get it done.

It's not going to get done. Right. At the end of the day, the finger is always yours pointing back at you.

Looking back, my hindsight's 20 20, but from where you started to where you are now, what does that journey of entrepreneurship mean to you? Would you do it again if you had that choice, or would you choose a different path?

Gosh, you know, I think that. Would you do it again? Right now, I would do it again, but probably if you asked me at different times during the day, I might answer differently. So. But, you know, I think I am exceptionally proud of what we achieved. You achieve less than you think in short periods of time, but you achieve much more when you look back in hindsight. And we've achieved a lot and we've got a lot more to come, but we're in a really interesting space. We're seeing incredible movement in our industry. We were really early on the curve, and so our timing really hit it out of the park. It's kind of incredible to look back, and it was very hard. There was lots of moments that I don't care to relive. But it's so cool to be here now and I'm so excited. Like, I think in the hard moments I'm like, imagine two years from now, where are you going to be and what are you going to think about this period of time? Because two years ago you could never imagine to be here. So ultimately I think I would do it again. Like everything that's hard, it's worth it, right? Like it's fun, it's exciting, it's kind of, it's a real. It really is a privilege to get to do what we do every day.

You don't realize how much you're accomplishing until well after the fact. But your focus has been on your business and what you're accomplishing with your business. But for me as an outside looking in, I actually see what you've accomplished for the industry. So it's one thing to have these accomplishments for your business, but the impact that you and Fin AI have been having on the AI industry and the financial tech industry, not just in Canada, but globally, did you ever imagine that that's where you're going to be and the impact that you're going to have in an entire industry or no.

And thank you, that's a very kind compliment, particularly coming from you who truly has done so much for the ecosystem and for building out networks. You certainly hope that you're going to have a big impact. But to start to see us, we've got customers across four continents. We're the main channels for some of our customers. There's these incredible things that are happening and every now and again I get a piece of data from the team that just blows my mind around feedback from a customer. They're able to access something that they couldn't access. One of the things that for me is the most satisfying is looking at the talent that's come through the company and is now still with us or with other places and kind of getting this alumni and this network effect of incredible professionals in the AI industry, whether it's working on AI problems directly or tangentially, like customer success or other roles. It's so incredible to think that we get to be part of that and that you're interviewing people they know of your company. I talked to someone last week because we were interviewing him for a position. He said, oh yeah, I did a webinar on your product and just from a different company and that's such, you know, you just don't even know that these things are happening.

You as a founder, when you hear something like that, it's like, hey, a student has been doing a project about my company.

It's so cool. I mean, it's your baby, right? I feel very humbled. Of course we offered this person the.

Position, but so that's kind of an inside tip. You want to get the job, Tell the interviewer if it's a founder, that you did a student project on your business.

Yeah, straight for the ego. He was very humble. I think it was genuine, very cool to get to see that impact in different areas. And it's so cool. It's so, so, so cool to use your product in a live environment, which we can now do, and to think like, wow, we were responsible for this. That's one of the most fun things.

Where does that kind of leave you now with having gone through that journey being an entrepreneur? You're a brand new mother. We're living in the world of COVID How do you balance all this?

It's something that we're all trying to figure out in Covid. I think Covid changes how we work and the flow of our day and their interactions with people. So we're all working through what is this new normal and how long is this new normal with this and what does it mean for us and for me being a new mother? I've got an eight month old son and being an entrepreneur and being on different boards and, you know, seeing my family a lot, it can all work together. I really believe that you can, you know, that you can have it all. It doesn't mean that you need to drive yourself crazy, but it's where can you hand things off? We've got a great team at the company that does an incredible amount of work and those people mean that I can hand off lots of things and focus on the pieces that I really need to focus on. And I've got incredible help around me with raising my son. My mom is here, we have a wonderful nanny, I've got a partner who does an equal amount of childcare as I do. I think that it is possible to find the right balance. But my rule of thumb is if anyone wants to help me, I say yes. And I figure out how to make it work because I don't want to have it all at the expense of my, my well being.

Yeah, I think that's one of the key parts, is everybody's situation is different, but you can't be afraid to ask for help. The perception is that especially for entrepreneurs is that if you show signs of weakness, you're not capable or people are going to look different upon you. People are starting to realize or come out and really talk about how much they rely on other people to come in and support them and help them.

And that was a lesson that I was taught early from my brother. He is an entrepreneur with a tech company and he made tons of intros for us. And everyone was willing to help. Everyone was willing to help. And he said, in this network, people are so supportive and you should edit every email with what can I do in return and how do I help you back? And when I see any tech company that's successful, particularly in the market that we're in, in Vancouver, it feels like a success for everyone. I think people love, love to help and there's parts of the business that are unique to you, the product that we build is unique. And there's so many parts of our business that are entirely the same. It's just a constant give and take. Creating that network of people who are at the same stage that you can ask questions to and be supportive of is so powerful. And it just makes it a lot more enjoyable as well. Like you then go out and celebrate together and you commiserate together and you're kind of on this journey at the same stage and same time.

That network that's in the tech industry is so different.

I think in part it's the nature of the type of person that chooses to be in this industry. And I've always attributed it to the risk that's associated with starting companies or with technology. And it's part of your insurance. So the bigger your network and the more that you've helped out, the more people will help you. And it's how you succeed, that the companies that succeed are the ones that have been able to navigate those really difficult moments time and time again. There's no company that hasn't had their many, many, many, many difficult moments. But if you're able to navigate them, that's what ultimately gets you to success. And I can give you dozens of examples of times when we've had to call board members, friends, you name it, to ask for help. The easy days are easy. It's the tough days that you need those networks. And it's amazing how people will come through for you.

Surround yourself with a good network and good things will come and be the.

First person to help too. I think it's really fun now when people ask for help. And I know the answer because we've been through it, we ask for help all the time. It is amazing how, how much Give and take there is. And how much collaboration there is and how much want there is for everyone.

To be successful is being genuine and being willing to help no matter which way you can. Because it does become noticeable. If you're just the one taking and never contributing back, well, that doesn't last very long. People will notice. Really valuable insight and feedback. There's, there's aspects to the journey that you've been in that's very different than others. What is an example of an app or a tool that has helped you on your founder journey?

So there's, there's lots of tools that we can't live without. I try and use as few tools as I can and I'm going to choose a tool that might, might be one that not everyone uses and it's a product that I've become an evangelist for and that is that. When I was pregnant it was really difficult to exerc and exercising has always been my mental health and my happy place. And I bought a peloton and so it's a stationary bike with basically on demand cameras. It got me through my pregnancy, it got me through recovering from labor and in the middle of the pandemic it has been something that has been a real go to for trying to keep sane and healthy and moving my body. So that has been great addition to my life and something that, I mean if I had to, I could live without it. But it certainly improves my quality of life and my mental well being.

Same thing. I use the gym and exercising as my outlet to channel my stress and with the gyms being closed and I discovered boxing in virtual reality and similar to like a peloton, it's a technology that allows you to get a good cardio workout in and it was a lifesaver. And definitely I didn't think of peloton and those type of apps as something that would come up in this series. But I'm so excited that you brought that up. That's an awesome one.

I love that you're doing virtual reality boxing. Can you send me the information? I want to try that. I used to box.

It got me a great workout and it was a lifesaver. Yeah. Again it's physical health is clearly tied to mental health and you definitely need to get out and get that workout in whenever you can. Even a 30 minute walk a day does amazing things.

Exercise has always been something that I've used in my life as a strategy to stay happy and healthy.

Piece of advice for our entrepreneurs out listening to us right now. What's some advice that you have for new or even seasoned entrepreneurs building a company in today's world.

I think my best piece of advice is really simple, which is just hang in there, hang in there, Keep going. You know, two steps forward, one step back. It's a difficult. It's always difficult to be an entrepreneur. I think we're all trying to readjust to this new world and even those of us that haven't been heavily impacted, there's changes to our lives and how we're working together. There's an incredible amount of opportunity that's coming out on the back of COVID with different business models, different ways of working, different needs, lots of talent in the market. So I think that there's going to be a lot of really interesting things that can happen, and you just gotta keep going. So you know, when you've got good days, celebrate them. And when you have those tough days, find your network, talk to people, get your virtual boxing or your peloton or whatever it is in and put your head down the next day and take the next step forward.

Awesome. All right, we're now at that point in the interview where you've given so much advice and feedback and insight to our audience. What can our audience do for you? What's your call to action?

And so my call to action is if you are new to artificial intelligence, if it's a technology that maybe you've used as a consumer but haven't read too much about, to take 10 minutes and to learn something new about it, you could review the Montreal Declaration, which is an international declaration on ethics and how it's used. You could read a great book. My favorite book is called prediction just how AI is applied to business. It's perfect AI 101. But take a few minutes to learn something about technology. Maybe you'll get some inspiration about where to apply it or how to apply it. And for AI to be really successful, we all need to think about how we want it to be used in our world and how we're going to leverage it as an incredible force for good. There's so many cool applications of artificial intelligence, and I think we've all got a role to play. I hear so often people say, I don't know anything about it. I can't, you know, start a company or I can't get involved in a company. But this is the time, if you're at all interested, this is the perfect time to get involved. And so I invite people to learn about it or to find a way to be involved in building the next great AI thing.

That's awesome, Nat. I really enjoyed our conversation today. You're an amazing woman, amazing entrepreneur. Keep doing what you're doing and make the world a better place. All right, thanks, everyone. Launch Ventures is for entrepreneurs by entrepreneurs. If you enjoyed today's episode of Founder Journeys, please like share, follow and check out our link in bio for all the other good stuff.