Reverse Freemium: How To Go From Sales-Led to Product-Led To Drive Growth with Oji Udezue and Michael Litt

Find features in your usage data used by the 50th percentile of your customers and think about setting it free. And if you don't have something like that, maybe you need to create it.

The free user is a huge part of our funnel, so it's insanely valuable. So we have to get obsessed about what they want. Then we're going to have users who upgrade from free to pro. What drives that upgrade? What makes them valuable? Right. We have to give away 90% of the functionality and the value, kind of like a drug dealer to get them hooked and get them invested into the product. I need some traction. You need some traction. Let's get some traction.

Hey what's up innovators, entrepreneurs, visionaries and disruptors. This is your Traction Podcast host Lloyd Lobo We're a community of over 100,000 people just like yourself, on a mission to help you get the methods, the money and the madness to explode your business growth. Featuring stories and tactical advice straight from those who've done it before, like Shopify, Twilio, Asana, and many more, this episode is brought to you by Boast AI. Each year the US and Canadian governments give out billions of dollars in R and D tax credits and innovation incentives to fund businesses like yours. But the application process is cumbersome, prone to frustrating audits, and receiving the money can take up to 16 months. Boast AI gets you access to research and development tax credits and innovation funding opportunities without the headache and red tape. Join thousands of North American companies leveraging Boast AI software to maximize cashback. Check out B oast. This episode is also brought to you by Launch Academy, an international tech hub that provides mentorship, resources, network and the environment for entrepreneurs to launch, fund and grow their startups. Since 2012, Launch Academy has incubated over 6,000 entrepreneurs, of which 300 have grown their startups past Seed and Series A and have collectively raised over $1.2 billion in funding. To learn more about Launch Academy's programs, check out LaunchAcademy CA. Special thanks to our Podcast partner Content Allies From Podcast Production and promotion, content allies helps B2B companies build revenue generating podcast. We recommend them to any B2B company that's looking to launch or streamline their podcast production. Learn more@contentallies.com Some of the fastest growing.

Companies and the most successful companies of the last decade, Dropbox, Slack, you name it, have all been PLG or product led. Michael's gonna start with his journey. Midway through, AJI is gonna give us a masterclass on PLG and Then we're gonna end with Vidyar's PLG case study going from sales led organization to product led organization.

My name is Michael Litt, co founder and CEO of Vidyard. Really happy to be here. What I want to talk about today is this concept of reverse freemium. I think there is a legacy of misunderstanding around the process of freemium, meaning that you are potentially a down market company. We are very much focused on the mid market and the enterprise and also on the fact that you can't go from being a top down sales company to a bottom up sales company without completely reorgang yourself, which is somewhat true. But we were able to actually make the switch to reverse freemium mid flight despite the fact that this was not the way we were founded and not the way the first five years of our of our trajectory were planned. So like I said, a strategy wasn't to go reverse freemium. And in fact Vidyard was built on BDRing being the traditional process of doing outbound selling. I was the very first BDR in our company. During Y Combinator. I spent a ton of time doing outbound prospecting. We had actually built this crawler that we called Nostradamus. And Nostradamus sat on a server in the corner of the office where we did YC and Nostradamus went and crawled a variety of business directories for companies that actually had videos embedded on the homepage and across the site map. And then what resulted was essentially a database with a bunch of domains. The number of videos on the homepage, number of videos across the site map, the scale of the company, the industry of the company. And we ended up driving a lead list about 80,000 companies large. And so my job then was to rank and profile and identify which of those companies had a propensity to buy our video hosting platform based on these needs. So I would create a list of 100 of these businesses. I would send them to a contact overseas, her name was Hazel, who would then find the key contacts of those businesses. And I would pick up the phones and I would start dialing. Soon I hired another person to do this with me. So we had two BDRs. My calendar got full of events and calls and mid cycle sales process and closing. So we hired two more BDRs. So we had three BDRs. I became the only AE, one of those BDRs became an AE and all of a sudden we had a sales organization. And this process went on and on until we hit a peak of about 50 business development reps inside of our business doing outbound prospecting. And this is exactly the process we followed, obviously with a ton of nuance to go from 0 to 1 to 3 to $9 million in ARR in the span of about three and a half years, which is incredible growth, incredible momentum. But obviously we knew that at some point it wasn't ultimately going to scale the way we wanted it to because we started seeing diminishing returns. Something that is very well understood in industry is that marketing automation is the victim of its own success. One of the really interesting kind of parables here, I'm sure a lot of people are familiar with Gary Vaynerchuk. He had a mailing list in the 90s which was about wine. And this mailing list had an open rate of about 92% if you're in marketing or in any capacity in go to market in your organization today, that we largely will celebrate an open rate on an outbound email campaign of anywhere between 0 and 3%, depending on the list, its quality, et cetera. And so just in a few short years, about 20 years, we've gone from accepting a 92% open rate to 2 or 3%. Marketing automation, sales acceleration platforms, things like outreach and Salesloft are amazing technologies in that they give companies a competitive advantage. But what it's done is just completely bombard our inboxes with information that we don't need. It's made too easy to reach out. And so if you're like me, you're now using AI or using Google, whatever it is, to simplify the process of accessing information in your email. And so there's this downward trend with respect to outbound selling results as well. And our team knew this. Our team is highly competitive at this point in our trajectory. This is probably four years ago now. We've got about 50 bdrs pounding the phones. They all want these AE positions. And one BDR started to get really innovative with respect to their outbound selling process. And we wanted to solve our own problem right again. Diminishing open rates, diminishing returns. This is something that was absolutely plaguing the industry. So what this very enterprising BDR did was pretty clever. They sat down at their computer, they opened QuickTime, they recorded a video of their presentation of their outreach for the customer, and then they uploaded that video to our platform. They took a screenshot of of that video, pasted it into the email body, and then hyperlinked that screenshot to the video that was embedded in the platform. And then they went to they sent it to the customer. Then they went to our Insights dashboard and waited for the view counter on that video to go from 0 to 1. When it hit 1, they knew the customer had watched it. They knew how much they'd watched. And then they followed up with another video saying, hey, thanks for watching my video. Do you want to book a meeting? Here's my calendly link. That is an incredibly inefficient process if you think about it. You could probably have sent 15 to 20 emails in the amount of time it took to prepare and send that one video. But that BDR got an immediate response, the next BDR who did it got an immediate response. And soon, before you knew it, all 50 of our team were creating these videos through this terribly inefficient process to get access to customers. And customers were responding. Now really high level, why is that happening? Everybody has been numbed by the volume of email in our inbox and the fact that we all know the vast majority of these emails are automated. Now here's somebody with a smiling face waving at me. In a lot of cases back then they were writing names on a whiteboard. How can you not click that video? This is obviously a message that is sent for you. Not only was it more efficient to communicate than writing the email, it was more expressive and therefore ultimately it was more effective. And so really interesting story here. And we realized we could build a product that did this for other companies and then utilize the broader platform we built to add a ton of value long term to our customers. Now the challenge was a new product can easily fit into an existing go to market model. Right? We could have easily baked it into our top down process. Our BDRs were doing outbound prospecting. Why don't we just sell the product that we're selling with? Sounds really easy. However, we knew that buying behaviors were changing. We knew that there was diminishing returns in this process of outbound communication. And so we had to rethink our go to market model on the basis that buying behavior has changed. And so we went out, talked to a bunch of experts and tried to understand these dynamics and how to ultimately build a really successful, highly scalable go to market framework around this new product. One of the individuals I talked to is Brian Halligan. A lot of you probably know him, he's the CEO of HubSpot. Amazing personality and definitely established thought leader in his own and I was at a small session with Brian with a bunch of VPs of sales CMOs, basically executives across a large Volume of organizations. And Brian asked a simple question. How many of you were involved in a software purchasing decision over the last five years? And a couple hands went up in the audience, right? Of course executives are involved in software purchasing decisions. He then said, how many of you were involved in a software purchasing decision in the past year? And not a single hand went up in the room. And that's when we realized fundamentally that buying behaviors had changed the process, the legacy process of someone generating an rfp, taking a bunch of bids, going and playing golf with a bunch of sellers in different companies, buying a piece of software, investing six months to a year and implementing that software in an on premise atmosphere in their organization obviously left a long time ago. And the promise of SAS was always to simplify the process of using buying and acquiring technology. And this was happening all around us, across every single institution. And I think the reason for this is relatively simple, right? What is the greatest risk to execution for a company? At some point you could set it was money, right? Not having the money to grow, the money to scale. On today's world, the capital markets treat efficient growing companies relatively fairly. There's an abundance of venture capital available in the world, there's abundance of debt available to the world. And it is relatively cheap. In fact, it's cheaper than it's ever been before. So it's not really money then you might think it's people. There's a broader talent pool that are involved in these companies that understand how to execute in this modern framework. And so of course talent is always a limiting factor, but it's solvable. The biggest risk execution, in my opinion and in all the executives I talk to, is ultimately time. It's the time to go from the process of deciding you want to do something to actually executing on it. And in that execution, realizing that it's successful or it's failing. So how does this impact the buying process? Let's say BP Sales says, hey, there's a global pandemic, we can't go and see our customers anymore. We need to figure out a way of building a unique relationship with our sellers. And we can't get them on zoom calls all the time. Go figure it out. So person goes out, maybe it's director of sales, maybe it's individual sales rep and finds an asynchronous video product, right? This is a great way of building a relationship and adding personality to the sales process. If that product has a very complicated process where they have to submit a form, talk to a sales representative, go through the process of Evaluating and formalizing budget. It's likely that process is going to take too long for them to actually execute. And if there's other products in the market that are ultimately able to do that for free, you're going to lose that opportunity. The biggest risk to execution is time. When someone in an organization is tasked with an objective and needs to be successful in a short period of time, they're going to take the path of least resistance. First thing they're gonna do is a Google search video hosting platforms. How do I build a relationship with my customer during this pandemic? Simple search terms. Then they're going to validate those search terms against products that are available in the ecosystem via G2 crowd or trust radius. Right. The groundswell of the way software is acquired today is completely different. And what that means is the top down process that existed not that many years ago for so many companies is ultimately dying. Right? And by top down selling through the cmo, selling through the VP marketing, what happens today is the VP marketing or the CMO will tell the organization what it needs them to do and they will go out and find the solution that solves their problem best. And that solution has to be friction free, has to be easy to use, has to come to them quickly and then they will ask to buy whatever version of that software is that ultimately makes sense to solve that organization's problems. Right? And the cmo, VP sales, whoever, your economic buyers will look to them for that type of validation. Obviously this is the way companies like Slack, as Lloyd mentioned in this conversation, ultimately were so successful, I think about my own organization. We were using Google Chat primarily to communicate. When Slack landed on the scene, the engineering team started using it. The engineering team started pulling in other organizations in the company on a cross functional nature. And all of a sudden everybody was using Slack. I didn't validate it, my co founder didn't validate it. Nobody in the company said hey, let's use this product. But all of a sudden we had to buy it because we needed additional security features, integrations and a bigger message limit. This is exactly what we decided to do with this new product.

Just a quick intro. My name is Oji Odezoi, I'm the former head of product for Kalnly. I'm a product management and design leader, ex Microsoft, ex Bridgewater Associates, ex Atlassian. I'm an entrepreneur. I've been an entrepreneur before. I do some investment as well. Last major tours of duty were Caly and Atlassian and I'm here to talk to you a Little bit about my understanding from working with these amazing companies that have sort of pioneered product led growth of what it is and different challenges related to transitioning to a product led growth company. First of all, I like to start with definitions. Product led growth really is about focusing on the end user and I think we'll spend a lot of time on that theme. Product growth really capitalizes on the realization that the end user is the customer. And that hasn't always been the case. In many cases selling to B2B companies, Enterprise or SMB has been about catering to people who are not necessarily the people who are using the software. If you think about earlier era where people needed databases to track things, databases don't really help an individual. But it was technology that was needed to make a company more productive. But we have progressed through different eras. So the question is why does it work? So I want to double click on that focus on the user and I think it's because PLG aligns with long term market trends in the software business. Initially we were building technology, right? Trying to figure out everything from chips to basics of operating systems to utility, where people are putting all those things together to build RDBMSs and things like just core things that infrastructure things in your organization. And now I think we're in the age of convenience where they're customized tools designed for the end user. It's really about accelerating particular people in your organization and making them work better and faster. So PLG is really an expression of this inexorable sort of shift to how the corporate consumer is behaving and how they demand software. So some of the benefits of doing PLG is that it's a self reinforcing loop. If you have any kind of developer instincts you will love this because it's exactly like a piece of code, pseudo code at any rate. So with PLG you focus on end user value creation and when you do that, you harness customers in terms of spreading the word about your product. They help you with marketing, which you couldn't do before with a sales driven model, they help you with distribution, they help you with adoption and data from adoption. And with that you spend a little less money than you would dollar for dollar on driving growth, which is more efficient for you. And then you can take some of those dollars into building even more end user focused brand value creation. And it's so reinforcing loop that is a virtuous cycle if you do it correctly. Now one of the people I partner with, openview is a really great VC and they generate a Lot of content around plg. Blake and his team writes a lot about this and I took some of these benefits because they sort of studied this at scale and I wanted to share with you. So some of the benefits of PLG include faster growth and I think Michael will show some of this in his business. But if you commit to plg, what you should see is a separation between people who don't commit to PLG as time goes on and you build more value. This taking advantage of that virtuous loop that I talked about. So product led businesses grow faster over time. The second thing I want to make more sort of cogent or is just talking about COVID 19. Michael will also talk a little bit about disease results. But when in March when Covid hit, there's a lot of uncertainty in the market about who will be impacted, the impact of the economy and so on and so forth. And I think there are two bright spots in software businesses through Covid. One was people who lean into remote work. So everything to do with collaboration, digital communication really did well. But the other thing was that people who have PLT strategies held up really well because when you are essential to the workflow of an information worker, it turns out that it's a big argument with the CFO to cut the product depending on what it is. So sort of there's resiliency and some, some sort of bulwark, some kind of firewall for people who invest in PLG versus people who don't invest in plg. Now this is another slide from Open View which just tracks post IPO stock performance and just separates the market between people who do PLG like Atlassian and Zoom and Dropbox and companies and software businesses that do not. And I think the most interesting one is the NASDAQ composite and the SaaS index. So you can see a huge separation in terms of value for people who commit to PLG and people who do not. Then the last thing I wanted to show in terms of the benefits of PLG is just about the market cap. I think we are many years from the time Atlassian started or Dropbox started. But these companies that sort of committed to a very different way of doing business have driven a lot of value in the market. These are companies that become profitable faster. These are companies that grow really quickly and keep going quickly for a long time into their existence. And so we've seen that PLG is a resilient strategy for building really strong software businesses based on the valuation of PLG driven companies in the market. So let's Talk a little bit about the basics of being a product led growth company. The first one is that as I've harped many times already is you have to design for people. So you have to be really customer focused company. You have to treat the people who at work exactly like consumer companies treat treat their customers. If you go back to the theme of convenience, you don't go into a store, try to pick up some detergent and have someone stand in your way. No, everything is designed to be as frictionless as possible, as attractive as possible and get you to the point of value as possible. So PLD involves consumer grade design and solving for pain in the workflow and shrinking workflows as much as possible for end users. The next thing I think in the basics of PLD is discovery. People have to be able to find you quickly, just like in the same metaphor for the same metaphor for browsing through a grocery aisle. You have to have your own website and has to look good. You have to be in all the app stores that make sense. People have to discover stumble across your product through search or through serendipity or through people around them really easily. The next one is easy adoption. People have to be able to self serve. Nobody just Michael talked about high pressure tactics in terms of marketing and sales. Most consumers don't really want to disintermediate between them and the adoption of something they're interested in. They will need to ask for help when they need to. But it's best in PLD to optimize for easier adoption and we can talk a little bit more about that. And the last sort of basics of PLD is virality. Now virality is not a gimmick, it's not what people think it is. It's really solving the problem really well. That's the foundation and if you do that, customers will assist you in spreading the word. Now you can gamify virality. That's absolutely an accepted tactic. But the point is help your customers help you to get the word out about your PLG and your product. Now one of the things I want to talk about and segue into Michael's, the rest of Michael's results is just how do you transition from sales led to plg? What do you need to do? This is not exhaustive, but here are some of the things that I've observed over the years about what I've learned about aligning to becoming plg. And hopefully Michael will confirm some of those things that he's had to do as well in his company with a Real case study. First of all, you need to be all in. PLG isn't about the product team saying this is what we have to do. In the sales team being like, we're not sure there needs to be higher level support for the new strategy. Someone like Michael, who's the CEO of this company has to be like, this is exactly what we're going to do. And in that place, product becomes a center of gravity and other teams support the product team to help the company grow. This doesn't mean there's no sales team, this doesn't mean there's no marketing team. But it does mean that solving end user value becomes everybody's mantra. In my case, what I found is that product has to partner with sales and decision making, right? Not one in opposition to the other. You have to partner the executive level, you have to partner at the lead level. Underneath, you have to. In my organizations, I spend time with sales teams constantly, like every couple of weeks, every three weeks, to exchange information, to share information about where we're going, about expectations and context. And that really creates a strong bond. Sales is not the only place you create alignments. You have to have PLG aligned marketing and you have to do exactly the same things. Now one of the things I want to caution is that with plg, transitioning from sales led to plg. Often things need to change. Usually people might have to go or change because sometimes these things are about DNA. Some people doesn't fit their skill set, it doesn't fit their bonus expectations or whatever it is. So you have to be very disciplined in making sure that the people in your organization support the way you're going. You need to manage that transition really well. You need to build bridges, product bridges, pricing and packaging bridges, staffing bridges. To be able to make that transition. The next thing I want to talk about is being value focused, right? You need to set some value free if you want to do PLD effectively. Here's some of the thoughts I have around that. So one is you have to find deep value in your product that leads to intense satisfaction and set it free. So one of the tenets of doing PLD is generosity with the value you create. And the reason you do that is not just to leave money on the table, is to create people's influence, people's ability to hit a. I think I'm probably going to regret this, but you should think about yourself as a drug dealer, right? You should have enough for people to get hooked on your product. Not because it's bad or because you've really solved a hard problem. And how do you get people hooked? It often, it often is about giving them a taste of something that's really valuable. If you give them something that's not, then you know it's not much of a taste. You can always find value to charge for. If customers are addicted to your product, trust me, you will find a way to monetize them because that loyalty is worth its weight in gold. So anyway, the point is find something fundamental, deep, broad and set it free. Slack is like chatting with your team. Zoom is having a 40 minute meeting which is pretty significant. Calendly is like being able to schedule forever for free with one kind of meeting. Dropbox, you can have access to a file anywhere under a certain size limit. So all these are very significant ways that they've given free things that have drawn people into your ecosystem. One tip in terms of figuring this out is to find features in your usage data used by the 50th percentile of your customers and think about setting it free. And if you don't have something like that, maybe you need to create it. So we've talked about this ad nauseam, right? You have to remove self service friction. Just the mantra should be no humans involved. Account creation, onboarding invitations, those are the critical path. Engineer your software so that it doesn't require that. Now it doesn't mean that you will not follow up with a customer immediately with a human being if necessary. But you don't want to be in a place where there's any friction of people signing up for your product. Now the reason I bring that up specifically is that a lot of sales led teams haven't made those investments because they get so much value from selling top down. The frictionful things accounts are not being someone onboards you someone creates your account. You have to build those things in to be able to be successful. The other thing that is under look is product instrumentation. People transitioning to PLG should over instrument their product. You should have the product really tell you who's using it and why. Sometimes even when you don't know how we use that data. Putting in the infrastructure and investment is really really critical because what happens is a year down the line, two years down the line, you will need that data to be able to solve additional customer problems. So you have to put in product instrumentation so that you can increase your ability to focus on the user needs and the user activity to become a product led growth company. The next one is about your team. Your product team has to up level customer skills. Now Those customer skills include customer interviews, problem discovery, customer assisted solutions, which is where you create a solution and test it with customers in an agile way. All these are things that if they don't exist as skill sets in your team, you have to find and you have to hire for, you have to teach. That's absolutely required. You cannot be a product led growth company in word only. You have to have people who know how to find value by creating that value for customers. And the last one I want to talk about is virality and network effects. Remember, virality isn't about gimmicks, it's about creating, creating really good clear value for customers. But you can gamify it and you can design it in calendly. When you book a meeting with somebody at the end we say that was amazing. Do you want to create an account to be able to do those kinds of things? That's a very simple page that leads people to create and realize and taste value from calendar and also network effects which is about creating more value. How do you design your software so that the more people join, the more people have more value from it by doing nothing? So think about solving problems comprehensively, picking team scenarios where possible, enabling people to send invitations. All those are things that will drive a huge K factor and growth for your company. The last few things I want to talk about is team structure. How do you go after plg? How do, if you're a product leader, how do you structure your teams? And I think there are two things I think about in terms of that, like how do I invest and what are the people. So I think about it in terms of two things. So one is innovation teams that focus on building that customer value, right? Building the better mousetrap. So a better zoom, a more secure zoom, a zoom that you can lock down the waiting meeting room so that you don't zoom bomb. All of those things are the innovation teams. You also need some teams focused on reducing friction for people coming into and discovering your product. So everything from where they find a product, to self serve accounting to onboarding, you need to have different teams. Those teams generally have different goals. So you need to make sure there are people in your organization spending time on those two particular goals. Usually I will spend 70% of my team on innovation teams and about 30% on growth teams. I think that's a sort of a fair rule of thumb. And you can move that up and down depending on where you are in your journey as a startup or as a company. And then the last thing I want to talk A little bit about is what is the investment mix of effort. Any startup is basically a moonshot. So you spend all your time trying to solve the customer problems, but as you gain market power and as you become more skilled company, I think about 20, about 70% on the 12, 18 month horizon, 20% on adjacency. So expanding my market, thinking about the workflows that are adjacent to the ones that I'm solving today, and about 10% on moonshot. This is a particularly just PLG focus, but I do think that it is a good rule of thumb to think about in terms of consistently growing your business and finding new loops of growth. That's all I had. It was really just a overview of PLG and the things that you need to transition from sales led to plg. And I'll turn it over to Michael to finish up his side of what the results he found when they made these transitions.

I think this is a great transition. And Ajit talked about so many things that were either hard realizations or expected realizations in this process. And what I've done here is outline at a very high level how hard PLG can be with respect to the transitions you need to make inside of your team. First and foremost, our product team was traditionally very focused. It was a very kind of monolithic structure. Everybody focused on features and functionality across the broader platform and across the product stack. What we did is we realized, okay, we're gonna have now a free product and the free user is a huge part of our funnel, so it's insanely valuable. So we have to get obsessed about what they want. Then we're gonna have users who upgrade from free to pro. What drives that upgrade? What makes them valuable? We have to give away 90% of the functionality and the value. As Aji said, a drug dealer, to get them hooked and get them invested into the product. I think it's a legit comparison. Not that I've ever bought drugs from anybody. We have to get them convinced, we have to get them hooked. Same thing goes for the pro user. Now these free and pro users are our funnel for the broader enterprise deals where organizations are buying multiple seats, they're buying additional features and functionality. Maybe they want to contact sales at some point in this journey because they see that they have hundreds of people using the product for free in their organization and that could be somewhat of a security risk because they're not using the appropriate branded sharing pages, which is. Which is a key trigger. So we had to shift the product team. And if you know anything about Engineering and product teams, people like to do what I call polishing the apple or polishing the turd. Engineers in a lot of cases like to focus on making a solution, a feature, a function as optimal and as perfect as possible. And we're now saying that is important, but the customer outcome is more important. And making sure that the engineering and product teams are obsessed with the problem they're solving in each of those tiers is absolutely critical to getting this right. I think that's a massive piece of any healthy product and engineering culture. But even more so in the product led world. As Aji communicated inside of marketing, we were an enterprise marketing company. We would go and sponsor events, we would run webinars. This was our traditional go to market. We weren't really doing a ton of SEM. That is not flywheel marketing. And flywheel marketing data is key. And it's not just data on how people are consuming content on our website, it's data around how people are utilizing the product. The various triggers where we can insert messaging using things like app cues to totally change those dynamics. And what it means is the type of people that market inside of a PLG company are very different. They need to be data centric, they need to be able to query SQL, they need to be able to do things that is very different from the traditional approach to marketing, which again is event sponsorships and webinars and those types of things. They need that full picture of the funnel, from a free user to a hand raise all the way through to revenue. And they need to identify all the levers inside the funnel where they can deploy capital, where they deploy resources and strategies to ultimately make this thing scale. Then you get into sales. And I think Aji talked about this as well. Salespeople have an inherent conflict with this concept of giving anything away for free. Now I am an engineer who ended up growing up in sales in Vidyard because that was ultimately my job as the co founder and CEO. And and so I understand this to some degree, right? I'm an ae. I'm always looking for more to sell to my customers, to expand the deal size and make it easier to get my quota. And now all of a sudden the company is giving away all of this value for free. What we had to do is continuously educate the sales team on the long term value creation as was shown in that index of PLG companies and Audrey's presentation that would result from this strategy. And the reality is there were times in that process where I didn't even know if that was going to be realistic Now, I can say that now because we've seen great results, but we were betting the farm that this strategy was going to pay out long term. We had to do a ton of education. And then every single time a free user became a pro user, which then spread in a company and allowed us to close an enterprise deal, we sang that story from the mountaintops. We told the whole company, we celebrated it. And as of last quarter, 95% of our enterprise deals had at least one free user inside of them. So it's showing that it's working. That is so compelling to convincing sales. But again, bit of a chicken and egg problem there because it's not going to work immediately. And then on cx, how on earth do you support thousands of customers when your organization is set up to support hundreds of you have to automate things like support tickets. You have to automate how people consume content to better use the product. There's so much automation that needs to go into the process of supporting your free users. Because this is true, I think, for all products. The lower the value the user or the customer is to your organization, sometimes the more complex it is to deal with them, work with them and solve their problems. That's just the nature of things design, bit of an inverse relationship. You need to support that. And on the same token, in finance, how do you process those dollars? You're probably going from selling on average maybe a five, maybe a six figure deal to selling something for 10, 15, 20 bucks a month to thousands and thousands of users. How do you process that? How do you automate that? How do you change pricing on the fly and dynamically test against your market? It is a complex process. But if you do it like we did, where we had an enterprise offering that sold top down and pair that with an offering that sells bottoms up, you can keep a really interesting balance inside of your organization, especially if those technologies ultimately are complementary. And this free product helps advise this broader enterprise strategy. So back to this point of how do you support thousands of customers versus hundreds of this is what our customer growth chart looked like from inception pre plg. This is what it looked like in the quarter after we launched our free product. And this is a year ago. This growth rate has absolutely continued in a lot of ways has been compounded by COVID 19, which is what I want to talk about right now. How can you do a presentation in 2020 without talking about the impacts of the pandemic? Because the pandemic has completely transformed all businesses. This is a meme Amongst traditional, slow to move enterprises. Who led the digital transformation of your company, the CEO, the CTO or COVID 19 has forced everybody to approach the way they do everything differently as a consumer and as a consumer in the Enterprise in the B2B environment. This chart shows the delta of E commerce penetration over the past 10 years. So from 2009 to 2019 and then over the eight weeks in April. The interesting thing about this is it was predicted that we would get to 25% penetration as a percentage of retail sales in e Commerce by 2029. And that happened over eight weeks. And. And all those people that were reticent to buy stuff online that all of a sudden didn't have a choice to do it anywhere else or didn't have a choice to go into a store now understand the value of online shopping. And I don't think that's going to dip. And the same thing is true for how people are buying your software because the same person that's buying running shoes online now is now interested in buying software online to solve the problems of their organization and because time is the most valuable asset they have. And of course E commerce is great from a software sales perspective and buying running shoes because it saves you a bunch of time and it's easy and you can do it all from the comfort of your home. A lot of you are probably familiar with this concept of the chasm. This is a fairly legacy model that was built by Geoffrey Moore. And the idea was that the people that use your technology initially are the innovators and early adopters. This is back when I was calling companies based on propensity triggers that our crawler Nostradamus had identified. What eventually happens is you hit this thing called the chasm where the pragmatists or the early majority just don't see the value or are harder to reach than the visionaries and the techies ultimately are. And what has happened because of COVID 19 in anything related to E commerce, digital communication software, you name it, it's pushed the early majority and the late majority and laggards across the chasm into this early adopters and visionary category because if they don't adapt, they will die. And this type of thing happens once in a lifetime. And of course a PLG model that gives a lot of value away for free and is as frictionless as possible is going to win in that scenario. And so COVID 19 has almost forced this dynamic where you have to rethink the process of building your company. Now we just announced some of the results of this PLG model. Now, we fully launched our PLG model in various stages over the past, I would say 18 to 24 months. And the kind of culmination of that happened as we got into COVID 19. So timing was very good for us. And we announced just a few weeks ago that from the period starting March 1st until the end of June, so a four month period of time, every single one of our major KPIs including revenue, were up over 400% for that period as measured before. So for the previous four month period and that amounted to 2.8 million users and over 20 million viewers of video assets since March 1st. Now, we would have never been able to achieve this result if we hadn't gone PLG and we hadn't reduced the friction in our product process of acquiring users and customers because we didn't have a big enough team to process all of these orders if they had to be done manually and in a traditional fashion. So I'm so grateful for this model because it allows us to scale indefinitely and choose where we can ultimately spend the money and the resources to totally capture the opportunity that this model ultimately drives for us. And so in summary, we've obviously gone over a lot here, but if I can summarize it in one way, I would say it's so important that your culture has a culture of innovation. And like our example of the BDRs ultimately specking out the need for this product that opened up a new GTM model, hopefully your culture inspires that same level of innovation from within. If people can use your product to be successful in their company, find new ways of using it that you can harness and productize. You have an opportunity now. Find a new GTM model and perhaps try product led growth or some sort of flywheel model, changing buyer behaviors, global pandemic. Let's loop those two together. Obviously the world has changed. It's not going back to pre COVID 19 world at any stretch at any point in the future. And the longer that we exist in this shelter in place framework, which is probably pending vaccination or otherwise, we are going to be living like this. And so there's a huge opportunity to find new GTM models as well. And I suggest that PLG could be one of those worth testing. Innovation has to exist in every aspect and function of your business and if it does, your culture will accept these changes. You can build the plane while you're flying it, and ultimately I think you'll be successful.

I want you to walk us through the Thought process of how you carved out a specific flight feature or functionality. How did you come up with what to build as a PLG offer?

Yeah, so what we built was a result of that BDRS process. Right. Trying to do up on prospecting, trying to break through the noise, more signal, less noise in my customer's inbox. And that was like, okay, this is a cool feature and functionality. We can sell this bundled along with our enterprise offering. But before we do that, let's just do a product hunt launch and see how the free product works. Within the first two or three weeks, it had 100,000 users. And what we noticed was we were giving this thing away for free. Someone was creating a video, sending it to someone, that person saw that video and then had a high likelihood, a high percentage chance that they would then go install the product and use it themselves. And so there was some K factor involved in the way this product was using. So then we said, okay, table stakes is you have to be able to record and send a video and get a notification when someone watches it. That is like 90% of the value of that product that we just gave away for free. 10% of the value that you have to pay for is the branded sharing page that you see or watch the video in. You want to brand that with the header and footer of your company, you pay us for that. If you want to integrate the data of the viewers into CRM, if you want a richer set of analytics, if you want a few more features and functionalities that add value but aren't absolutely necessary, we'll let you pay for that as well. And so it really just came from almost this flywheel motion that this product created that allowed us to establish a bigger brand. And it was all about testing and investing and just slipping stuff into the market and seeing how people received it and then ultimately calculating and grabbing the upside from there.

A product like that is inherently viral and so is calendly. Let's say it's not inherently viral. And how would you think about making that shareable?

Yeah, I think it's hard to stuff virality into a place where it just can't exist. It's funny talking about virality amidst the global pandemic. In the end of the day, like, I think PLG comes in two forms. The most important thing is reducing friction and reducing the amount of time to value. And I think AJI captured that really well. From there, if you have a K factor, it grows much more quickly. But K factor is just like getting people to your homepage it's another vector to identify you. And if you have a great content marketing strategy, like a lot of companies do, I see a lot of businesses that have no K factor in their product, but their content marketing strategy is absolutely amazing. Look at Gong, for instance, right? Gong has this incredible marketing strategy where they unveil all the stuff they see from all the people using their software, right? So one of their big innovations was that if you swear or if a customer swears on a call with you and you start swearing, there's a 30% higher likelihood of winning that deal. And that type of thing is viral because salespeople generally like to swear with the customers if they can, if they have that opportunity. And so that becomes a viral way of getting access to some of their lower friction, higher flywheel products.

You can build a to do list for yourself or for individuals. Like you build a team to do list, for example. So in many ways virality can be a choice. Not in every case, but virality can be a choice. Like a lot of people work in teams, yet a lot of people build products for one person. And so think hard about the social and team aspects of your value proposition and that will help you with at least within team, virality and invitations and things like that. One of the things I did in an earlier startup also was sharing the ability to take the output of what I had created in a product and share it. And that created some level of virality. And virality is in the different. Varali is about solving the problem, I believe, because if you think about Slack, Slack does not easily transfer from one company to another company unless someone recommends it. Like, it doesn't just spill over like email. It doesn't do that. But it's so good that people are like, you gotta try Slack. So start with solving the problem because that will create word of mouth and think about other things like team dynamics and social sharing as appropriate in terms of adding virality.

Michael, you said that you launched and then you had 100,000 users. Did all of that come from Product Hunt? It can't be as simple as, hey, I built a free product, I launched it on Product Hunt, and tomorrow I'm going to have 100,000 users. So walk us through that journey.

Product Hunt is a very specific audience, right? Not necessarily inside of our icp, not necessarily sales reps, but they were using the product, testing and getting value out of it. And I think that initial surge actually got us featured in the Chrome store. And that Chrome store feature meant that we were now visible on the homepage of the Chrome Store, and that drove a whole bunch of new users. Again, not necessarily in our ICP or people that we would eventually sell to, but still people using and getting value of the products. Vidyard is used by teachers, by students, by all sorts of audiences that we have no intention of modeling. Some of them end up buying the Pro product for that additional value add, but they're never going to become a part of our enterprise funnel. The cool thing about this strategy for us is we get to play with new distribution models. So App Stores, I just mentioned Chrome Store, we just built something for the Microsoft Edge browser because it's Chromium based, which gives us access to a new distribution model. We're going to have a desktop app, which gives us another new distribution army. So the more visibility your application can get, as long as it's valuable to a user base, the easier it is to ultimately acquire users and start to build this funnel model. So there was a ton of work, but none of it was paid, none of it was SEM. We just picked a few key areas where we wanted to distribute the product, got lucky with the Chrome Store listing, and then we were off to the races.

Awesome. Audrey, let's talk about calendar growth because you guys are on fire. And what are some of the things you guys have done or did as you launch some of these cool features to get that kind of virality?

I think we've been lucky in this segment. That is first of all deep and wide next to so there, you know, messaging is a huge workload for information workers, and so is calendaring. But also related to calendar is scheduling. Like people want to schedule. Especially as in a company, collaboration becomes more and Covid hit. People want to be able to collaborate regardless. And Cali just makes it really drop dead easy to connect to people, embed the tools you need to consummate that relationship. And so first of all is that the selection of the problem we decide to solve I think is very viral. It always takes two or more people to meet, so one person is always introducing it to the next person. And frankly, if two of them already have Cali, then beautiful things should happen. And I also think that we made some smart choices. The second person who you're meeting with, the person who you said, hey, schedule with me. Cali did a really good job of respecting that person, giving them a beautiful user experience and solving the problem for them. Typically companies solve problems for people who signed up, but we were very cognizant of solving the problem for the other person who didn't even sign up. But who's at the other end of my request to schedule with me? I think slowly we have also started to build in tune that virality, but also start building in network effects. Like I said, if two people have calmly, magic should happen and we're starting to build those things. And I think the last one is just relentless user focus. People pay lip service but I think calmly really spends a lot of time with customers, really tries to synthesize the difference between customer requests and the underlying problem beneath that tries to solve very holistically. Those are I think all the foundations that could apply to almost any software business if they would just double down and do those things.

So what is a good place to draw a line for paid versus free features?

Give away a little more than you thought you should. Here's the thing. The reason people are the people worry and obsess over that is because they think it's an irreversible decision. It's not right? You can change your mind down the line, you can grandfather your existing users. Just remember, if you're successful, there are more users in your future than in your past, right? So the thing is to pick a point of value and test it and experiment with it and keep doing that until you find a place where you're getting value that sort of matches what you think. And while you're still being generous and as you get more users you're going to be able to tune that over time. Because that's the thing about building an obsessive customer base is that they're not just going to abandon you because you change the price anyway. Think about it as a reversible decision versus a one way door.

And what I see a lot of people do, I think I love that more customers ahead of you than behind you if you're successful. And that's a great analogy, but a lot of companies will give everything away for free. And it's branded experience is branded. So maybe it's branded calendly or it's branded yard and as soon as you pay for it, you lose that branding. So in that case that's like giving away all the functionality. And that's where a lot of organizations start. And then they start adding in advanced features and stuff as paid tiers after that to produce more value and expand ACVs over time.

Michael, I want you to touch on one thing, right? Because you spent a couple years to get this PLG model, right. It's not as simple as I'm going to carve out a feature and throw it out somewhere and people are going to use it because the user experience on these self service products have to be near flawless. So talk about some of the things that you took into consideration to make sure this all works. What is, how did you create a friction free onboarding?

And so when we decided to build what we ended up calling viewed it that first product because of this BDR's experience, we actually, my co founder and I, again the company was about 200 people at the time. We took a product manager and a dev lead and sat in a room and said okay, this product cannot resemble core enterprise Vidyard and in fact we can borrow on the APIs and the groundwork, but we are going to build this thing in a complete silo with the goal of it being as frictionless and as easy to use and as simple and as buttonless and as tabless as is humanly possible. And we, we kept everybody else's arms out of it. It was like a Skunk works project and I loved it because it was like a startup inside of the startup. And because we were able to do that, we were able to get it to market and avoid some of the UX and UI complexities that the rest of the organization will probably force into it if they had access to it. Now the problem was at some point we now had this new shiny product that was easy to use and looked sexy and this more traditional complicated enterprise product that just had been had buttons added to it over years and years of customer requests. And the experiences were very different. So people would upgrade from here into here and be like, oh my God, this is, what is this? This is like a different company, different product. And so we ended up having to refactor everything on the platform side to start to match the ui, the ux, the experience of this product over here, it was a massive amount of work, but ultimately very much worth it. So again we siloed everything away and focused on the key pillars of making it as frictionless and as quick to value as possible. And in fact that was one of our company's core strategies. PLG product again, the screen recorder, webcam recorder that's free had a very specific fundamental use case, right? Part of the platform was video hosting and video analytics and managing video assets and all that type of stuff. What we realized now in the refactoring process is we can actually make a part of this platform which is video hosting, etc. For free. So now when you sign up for a Vidyard marketing account, which is I Can upload a video embedded on my website, do some stuff with it, see who's viewing it. Basically a Vimeo or a YouTube competitor to some degree. You also get the chrome extension and vice versa. And so in refactoring, we were actually able to expand more of our product offering for free to a broader audience of both marketing and sales and support and success professionals. The PLG experiment with the separate product has actually redefined our entire business. And I talked about having 50 BDRs. We have six today. And those BDRs spend 100% of their time helping companies expand the footprint of free users. So they're not even asking for meetings and trying to sell stuff anymore. They're just helping organizations use video more effectively in their processes. And so we've gone from a sales process to an education process because that footprint is the free user.

And do you still have AES or.

Yes, we do. Absolutely. We have more AES than ever before. Because when an organization says okay, we need an enterprise, we have some security concerns with all these people using this free product. We want the branded sharing page, we want the data, we want the integrations, we want to have some paperwork and a commitment between two organizations. There has to be somebody there to ultimately process it because these deals get really massive over time. We have a team that's focused on 0 to 200 person companies. We call that emerging. And then a team that's focused on 200 employee companies plus we call that commercial awesome.

Aji, over to you.

Does Calendly have a sales team?

It does. Calendly was PLD from the start. So we didn't have to do some of the things that Michael has had to do. The team looks a little bit like. And the size of what Michael talks about now in the sense that it's we do product qualified leads. We have a right sized, that's what I'll call it, a right size sales team. And there's a huge amount of collaboration between the product team and the sales team of what's coming and how to talk about it versus making promises that we can't keep on the product side. So it's not a very large sales team. It looks a little bit like what something like Atlassian will build which is really make the product move and then be able to handle high end orders, things like multiple seats. It turns out that when people want to buy a lot of, pay a lot of money for a lot of people for your software, they just want a little bit of handholding. So we still do that.

So I want you to dive into. This is a good segue. Sales in a traditional organization, sales in a product led organization. There's this concept of product qualified lead. How do you guys decide at calendly when's the right time to contact a customer?

Yeah, I think it's a little bit of a correlation exercise and you can start being very coarse and then get very detailed. I think you basically look in the analytics and see what thresholds correspond to conversions, what are the markers, a little bit like growth on the side, what is the, what size of business, what kind of business, what integrations do they have to add that people turn people into not only conversions, but larger teams. What are those things? And the act of PQLs is really to grab all those signals, get it to the sales team so that it can push harder and faster, so that if it would take people 30 days to expand, maybe it'll take 15 days, which obviously benefits the business. It's accelerating what's already happening organically in the product, but giving it a very directed push that results in money. So that's really what it is. And in our case, we just started out with a few hypotheses that were refined both by feedback from the sales team, but also drawing harder correlations in the data as we began to explore what those things look like.

Yeah, so the way we define a DAU is send a video and receive a view that's a daily active user. And so our PQLs are defined by the volume of daily active users inside of an account. So we actually have PQAs product qualified accounts. And so if, let's say Stanley, Black and Decker has 400 people that have used the free product inside the organization, they hit a certain threshold that's not a product qualified account. And someone from sales will reach out to a decision maker in that organization and say, hey, we're noticing this. We can offer you XYZ to basically advance your position. And that's a much easier conversation than hey, you've not heard of me, nobody knows us, go have that conversation. I would say though, one of the things that is common and worth considering is that the hurdle on a PQA or PQL can sometimes change based on the dynamics of the business. So if you're trying to make a big push for a quarterly performance number, you can drop the barrier on a PQL and force your sales team to have more interactions and to Aji's point, push the deal along, along faster. Maybe you're short on pipeline and so you lower the barrier on the pqa, maybe you've got too much pipeline to process and so you raise the barrier on the PQA because you want to make the sales process easier. There's all these variables that you can ultimately play with as long as your product is instrumented. And Aji talked about that. That's a huge part of this, right? You have to be able to dynamically inject these signals inside of your CRM and inside of the system of record that salespeople use in a way that's very clear to them. We were originally showing like all these user stats and it was very complicated. And now it's just a big green piece of text that says this account has free and active users. Call them. It doesn't even give necessarily tons of details unless they break into it because it just has to be very clear. That's a PQA and they should have a conversation.

Let's move into prioritization from a PLG perspective because you're getting customer feedback and how do you use that feedback to drive development? Like how do you prioritize features when you get like thousands of people upon hundreds of thousands of people giving you.

Feedback Here I think the first rule.

I think of prioritization is to not go to features too quickly. The entire point of all customer feedback, the entire point of all customer discovery, maybe 80% of the point, is to discover problems. What is hard about your target customer's workflow that you want to solve. And then once you really understand that, then you say, okay, if I like roadmaps that are problems, I'm going to solve, this problem is the biggest one. I'm going to solve this problem last because it's the smallest one. And then from those problems you come to solutions. And I think that when teams do that, instead of going straight to here's a list of solutions and we're just going to figure out how to build it. You get a much more better sense of prioritization. So really what it amounts to is which problem will affect the biggest number of users. That's one quick question. Which of these problems will help us reach our business goals? So those are the two questions we ask in order to prioritize appropriately. Now, as someone who leads products, sometimes we have problems with fine grained prioritization. So if things are two weeks long, which one should you do in those cases? Sometimes I don't need to prioritize to the last nth degree. If it's not over a quarter, then there's a lot more freedom for teams to Decide what they want to do based on their understanding of the customer. Because if the two things will appear in a quarter, then diminishing returns and observing it. But if it's a quarter, half a year type investment, then we really focus on biggest benefits to which user group in the company and try to litigate that and then make a decision.

Our approach to product management has always been customers will tell you what they want until they're blue in the face. But it's up to us to infer from all that what they actually need. And that is our prioritization spectrum is we're solving this problem. Our mission is to help organizations use video. That's the goal. And then from there, how are we prioritizing things in terms of available developer bandwidth and then how does that ultimately impact growth versus existing revenue versus retention? So a good example of this is accessibility is a massive thing in big enterprises. We have to obviously adhere to accessibility requirements. We have to be able to stream video inside of China, for instance. For some of these enterprise enterprises, those are big ticket, fairly complex, fairly time consuming things that don't necessarily impact growth, but impact revenue. And that compromise exists in the business, which is why we separated out the teams based on customer outcomes. So the enterprise team is focused on that stuff, while the free team is focused on doodling and speaker notes and things that add value to the end user because the end user ultimately doesn't care about the stuff that the end of product and the security compliance team does. And so separating the team helps you manage those resources. But of course you can only do that if you have a big enough team to have different teams focused on different things. And so I think the process of product prioritization is very dynamic, very liquid. I don't think we've nailed it. I think it's a moving target. Sometimes we nail it, sometimes we don't.

I'm glad you mentioned like I think when I think about product, I think about portfolio theory. And you're right, the team itself, what teams you create, is an expression of priority, right? You're trying to make sure that based on those resources that you are picking the bets. So there is what bets is an act of prioritization. And within those bets, what do you do? So I'm really glad you brought up the team thing because that's very important.

What are some tips, ideas you have to empower your customers to become ambassadors.

To grow your business.

The biggest thing you can do to create ambassadors for your product is to build a good product. That's the Biggest thing you can do. There's nothing else that will give you as much leverage as that. Think of what Apple for the first 10 years of freaking iPhone, everyone's wrapped around. They didn't do very much. They just built a really great product. This is why I say that's the root of a rally. It's not gimmicks. Now if you had to do other things, build a community on your website so that you can at least give people a place to fanboy.

Right.

If you have a kick ass social media team and they're able to make offers and help people do that too. I'm not a big believer in referral systems. I find them gimmicky. But I think it might make sense in terms of other businesses. If you see community potential in your product, foster it, see where it goes. Communities can be a double edged sword sometimes. I have very enraged people in the county community and I have to manage them. But yeah, foster it and see where it goes again. All these things aren't. It's constantly experiments to find pathways that create more efficiency. So those are some of the examples that occur to me. Aside from building a kick ass product.

Every startup falls in love with the Dropbox referral model because we're all victim to it. I need more space. I'm going to get more people to sign up and get more space. And every company tries to do that. But what's missing in a lot of those cases is this inherent love and value that is tied to getting more space. Right. And that is a psychological paradigm that they achieved. Unless your product is fundamentally amazing at solving a problem that everybody has and you have some type of barrier you can apply that allows people to go and refer in, that's just going to be a failed attempt. And so I would say don't waste your time on referral programs until you believe you have product market fit and growth by word of mouth. And then if that word of mouth is happening, you can start to apply programs and incentives to that process to start to scale those programs.

Yeah, make sure your NNPS is over 30 before you invest in those things, otherwise it won't work.

How do you make this all come together? What are some tools you're using all the way from enabling to tracking and.

End to end data?

We use heap, you can use. We use heap segment and we. And you could use Pendo and so on. You need data, you need a lot of data. You need to figure out how to talk to your customers. So create a system for doing that. There's a lot of customers in your database. You can use user testing to find customers who look like your customers, but maybe that aren't your customers yet so that you can talk to people who know you and people who don't know you, but they look like the people you want to get. Other than that, a lot of the things that I use are frameworks. So over the time that I've been product leader, I've collected all the different ways to think about problems, to recognize problems very quickly, to have a standard of what good looks like. So the biggest tools that I have and frankly I share is frameworks, how to think about problems. The different Like I wrote an article about culture, how to create an organization that thinks together without hierarchy. Like those pieces are intangible, but they're some of the most effective things that I do in terms of figuring out how to be to build great products. And lastly, communication, clear community. You have to have a clear social knowledge fabric. If you cannot create a way to effortlessly communicate between the different parts of the team. Sales, marketing, engineering and allow people to sort of exchange ideas very fluidly. I think Google Docs doesn't really work. Personally, it's not good enough. Something better than that. Those are some of the tools I think the fundamental tools of my trade.

The only thing I'd add is when you're iterating on pricing models, acquisition models, feature availability, all that stuff, you need to use something. And there's a million of these types of functionalities that allow someone to quickly manage and make those changes. And almost a B test that's absolutely critical. And it has to be done in a way that doesn't command too many engineering resources to execute on. Because of course time is the biggest risk to execution. You gotta move fast. And then the only other one I think that we've recently implemented is productboard because we get so many product requests and inquiries from the team and having something that automatically takes those requests out of something like Slack and places them into a bucket that can later be prioritized or reviewed by the product team is really important because you don't ignore those insights because sometimes they're amazing, but a lot of the times they're just salespeople with ideas. And no offense to these salespeople with ideas, but those ideas might not necessarily align to the best decision for all the customers moving forward. So those are two things I'd highlight. I already talked about appqueues and how we utilize them, but yeah, data and the ability to visualize it and the people who know how to actually understand those visualizations and make decisions.

Awesome. This has been fantastic. I learned a ton, so this is phenomenal. Thank you guys so much.

I need some traction. You need some traction.

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