Journey to the East (ft. Rich Robinson) (2/2)

Revenues. He runs back again and he's like, we're running too fast for revenues. And the guy that I had brought slammed his drink down. He's probably my age back then, 20 years ago. And he was like, charlatan. And he left. And of course, Jack became the richest man in China, but he now owns the South China Morning Post. But back then you could do shit like that, right? You could just you know, have somebody come and speak to your group. And, um, yeah, so, and then, you know, I've been involved with 50 other startups as a, uh, in the war room as an investor, board member, advisor, and then 300, 400 others as a mentor. And then, yeah, I teach entrepreneurship in China at Peking University, and proudly so.

And going back to the Web 3.0, maybe because I guess As you were saying, there can be a lot of confusion nowadays to try to understand what's going on. It's still kind of new for many of us. So can you maybe explain us more? So try to explain the concept, what's happening, what's this change that we are experiencing with Web 3.0?

And I guess in particular, how is it occurring in China more specifically?

Yeah, it's not really occurring in China. I think China might be the most hostile place for crypto and Web3. So it's interesting because Web1, you could read the internet, it's just basically static. Web2, you could start to write on the internet. And by write, I mean not just text, but audio, video, you know, with Twitter and YouTube and, um, you know, other, uh, you know, Facebook, et cetera. Um, And then Web3 is read, write, and own. So you can own digital property on the internet.

Yeah.

And we're actually much closer to Web1 in some ways because Web1 was this kind of like idealistic open internet. Then Web2 became a lot more distorted, a lot more misaligned with kind of its mission and vision because big players started to take over the, you know, House of Zuckerberg and the Lords of Google and, you know, all of these fiefdoms. And we are like vassals in these fiefdoms. And, you know, the lord and his, um, you know, soldiers come up and, good morning, lord. Yes. How many, how many, uh, sweet potatoes have you harvested? 500 kilos. Uh, okay. You can keep 50 kilos. Thank you. Thank you.

Yeah.

Thank you for not attacking my family. Thank you for—

Feudal system and all that.

Yeah. And like, that's, that's what we live in, right? All our time, treasure, and data goes up to the top there and we don't own shit. And, uh, and we are the product. And, um, you know, that's just not, uh, and that's caused a lot of problems and misalignment with Web3, you know, you know, basically it was before it was kind of like platforms or portals and then that kind of atomized to apps. And now it's being atomized to actually down to the creator themselves, down to the creator and sort of like user level. And, you know, if you look at like all this thing with FTX and Three Arrows Capital and—

FTX.

Basically, it's kind of like the finance industry and blockchain had a baby. And that's, that's DeFi. Let's call it DeFi, even though FTX wasn't really decentralized. And the internet and blockchain had a baby. And that's Web3. And people often conflate Web3 with crypto or with DeFi, or that Venn diagram is kind of like, you know, really overlaid really, um, you know, too much. Like there, there is some crossover just as there's a crossover between finance, venture capital, and Web, Web1, Web2, smartphone.

Yep.

You know, et cetera. So with Web3, the real promise there is that Once users have digital property right ownership, if you think about Shenzhen, where you guys are, you know, once Deng Xiaoping said, you know, white cat, black cat, sui bian, whatever catches mice, and they allowed people to own real estate and to have property rights and to do free trade. Up until that point that he came in, it was literally like punishable by death to be an entrepreneur or do anything industrious.

You have the Gertie Who coming in and yeah.

Indeed. And it just, uh, you know, let, uh, the entire, uh, entirety of the mainland, uh, completely blossom and flower. And I think that's what's gonna happen on the internet right now. And I think, you know, we're in this weird time right now because there is a, you know, uh, cloud from crypto. There is a, you know, kind of a correction in Web3 anyway, probably rightly so. And there's also a looming recession. So, but, you know, in '08 to 2011, last recession, that's when amazing companies were built. And, you know, bears are for building. And we've had 11 recessions since 1950 in the US. And it was the longest bull since then. So, we're kind of due and there's going to be a correction. So, batten your hatches, but there's going to be— insane stuff coming out of this. This is my next Everest. I joined as an advisor to Animoca because I kind of, kind of covered with scabs and calluses and scar tissue like armor. So I help other people go into battle. Um, there be dragons, don't go there. And like, let's explore this. And like, this sucks, but it's supposed to suck. Keep going. And then I think, I think, and yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, I think it was, uh, is it Elon Musk that said that, um, starting a company or being an entrepreneur is like staring into the abyss whilst eating glass?

Indeed. And that's kind of a generous take on it, I think.

Generous.

Entrepreneurship is very unsexy. It's super unsexy. The most likely outcome is failure and it's pretty miserable along the way, just the way it is. And there's a winner's bias and people see all these unicorns and incredible exits. But the fact is that it's not a great way to make money. You're going to make more money On average, if you just have a typical career. But I really advocate for entrepreneurship because it's a great way to know yourself. There is no net and you have a mirror up against yourself. And it is an incredible way if you can really take care of yourself and look at it as a journey and a vocation to be able to accelerate everything into the future. And I think it's kind of dumb people don't, unless they're really, really opposed to it in their personality, They should at least try. They don't have to be an entrepreneur, but be in a startup and take that risk and kind of learn. You can kind of hypercharge and turbocharge.

I think it's kind of, you have to be kind of a bit addicted to instability though, and just adapting.

Certainly. But then how old are you guys?

I'm 26.

Young enough that I can ask. 24.

Say again? 26.

24. And how much do you weigh? No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I can't, I can't. Too much. So, so you're, you're, you're 24 and 26. Like you guys have a very good statistical likelihood of like living to be close to 100. Like there is no retirement at 65. It's true, right? By the time you guys hit my age in 30 years, they're adding a year to the actual tables every year that you're alive, right? And they might even be able to reverse shit. So this like 65, I'm not retiring. Retirement is like, Nightmarish to me. I have plans for the 20s, 30s, and 40s of like these next decades. I want to go into my 80s. And, um, my point there is that like you guys have a long road ahead of you. And I mean that in a beautiful way because you guys can do reinvention and, you know, unlearn, relearn, you know, try new things. And, um, you know, there's no race. There's no like, oh, I gotta get all this money in the bank to retire at this age and do whatever. And I'm competing against other people. You're not. Um, so, but when you're younger, to be able to like completely faceplant, to just fuck it all up and just totally see, wow, I'm, I'm really no good at that. Or that's like, you know, that's not where I wanna be. Or, ooh, I would've never tried that. But that's, that's interesting to me. Like, that's why I think your 20s are really, even in your 30s are like me for like taking, like I often tell people, you have multiple choices. Take the one that makes you kind of the most anxious. Do that one. Do it. Because, you know, and you kind of have nothing to lose. You can circle back. There really is a much bigger picture and you should be optimizing for challenging yourself.

And what do you think's been, you know, with that in mind, what do you think's been a key part of your success in China as an entrepreneur?

Delusion, probably. Delusion, like sadomasochism. Yeah, I'm an extroverted extrovert. My spirit animal is a golden retriever, and I surrounded myself with other long-suffering entrepreneurs. That's how I got to know Yat. He's actually from Austria originally. All these foreign entrepreneurs, like, and even Chinese entrepreneurs. Too, right? But yeah, like those are my peeps. I like some people golf or have a train set. Like I spent all my time in Treasure because I think it's the ultimate sport and I love it. And I was, I was able to insulate myself and then realize like my, my, my, I was gonna write a book called At the Speed of China. That's why I did that podcast. But I decided that the timing wasn't right and I'm kind of Web3 focused, but I am gonna write my first book and of, of many. And it's the, the, the title's gonna be called Impostorpreneur. Um, and, uh, okay. And the fact that I'm 55 now and you're like, climb up to the top of the hill or the, you know, mountain and you get up to the ledge and you're like, oh, look at all these other 55-year-olds wearing all white meditating up here. And like, they got it all figured out and they're all like, I don't know.

I don't know.

Like, fuck me. Like, just keep going up to 60 and 65, all the way up to like 85. And you're like, there's a lot fewer people up here, but nobody's got this shit figured out. Right. And like, everybody's an imposter. And I would go so far as to say, if you don't feel like you're an imposter, then get the fuck out of what you're doing and go do something that makes you feel like an imposter. Like, that's actually not a, you know, a bug. It's a feature. Like, you should be feeling like, ooh, I don't know if I can do this. And like, that's how you grow. You're either growing or dying. And if you're growing, then you're feeling uncomfortable. And that's what I learned. I spent so much time with other entrepreneurs. Like, hey, how's it going? Oh, it's going, dude. Are you kidding me? How's it going? No, how's it going? How's it going? Up into the right like rocket ship. Buddy, it's me, Rich. How's it going? Well, you know, I mean, I could be— Buddy, how's it going? Mommy, make it stop. I want to go home. I don't think I can do it. I suck. Everything sucks, right? It's like that's—

You go with it.

You do enough of that and you're like, wait a second, even the people that are like Crushing it. They're like, I was like, you raised $20 million bucks. Let's go out and grab a beer. He's like, I'm going to bed. And I was like, oh, you're pretty tired from raising the money. He goes, I'm kind of tired. But he's like, buddy, like, fuck, now I gotta go raise, I gotta go hire people who know that I'm full of shit. I've been, I've been making this up all along. Now I'm like mandated by the investors that I gotta go out and hire all these like really senior people and they're all gonna know that I have no idea what I'm doing. And I was like, Just get a good night's sleep. Let's go for— let's go do a workout tomorrow and figure it out, right? Because like, even, even when shit's going great, it's like, you're like, next, next level. They put, you know, they put 6 degrees on the, on the treadmill, 3 more kilometers an hour, and 5 more kilos in the back, and like, run, right? So it's like, that's, that's what it is every time, right? It's just, it's not fun so much. Uh, there are fun aspects, but it's, but it's not optimized for fun. And then I realized that and I'm like, ooh, I spent all that time traveling around riding that bike through— I rode a bicycle through Africa, uh, after my MBA program and all that other backpacking stuff where you're just like, wow, kind of like optimizing for misery is like the best way to like both save money and have more adventures and more serendipity. So then I would be like doing the most ridiculous kind of trips. where you're just like riding a, you know, Harley, 1942 Harley-Davidson through Vietnam and like, there's no place to sleep. Like, whatever, right? And then the next morning you wake up, you're like, it's all still here. And I could still, I, and it's like, it's okay. And it's like an adventure or a nightmare is kind of the same trip. It's your perspective on it. So that's the thing about like entrepreneur. Like I don't have any—

Perspective on the journey, I guess then, right? Is what you're kind of getting at, right?

I'm expecting it to totally Totally sucks. So whenever it's pretty good, then like bonus, right?

So I was just thinking about the Chinese Cheng Yu, the失败是成功之母. Failure is the mother of success. And I guess it may apply to entrepreneurship.

My favorite Cheng Yu is 天高皇帝远. Heaven is high and the emperor is far away. So try not to be kind of like under the radar, um, and just kind of like do stuff a little more, more far afield if you can. Or, um, that's what they did with Jack. Unfortunately, they killed the chicken to scare the monkeys. Just very publicly, you know, cut the chicken's throat to be able to like show it to all the monkeys in the trees.

And they're like, ah, the highest daisy in the, in the field or something like that. The tallest daisy in the field.

Yeah. It's snipped. Yeah.

And, and, um, oh, sorry, sorry, Roberta, go on.

I was thinking, we're gonna go more, more, more Cheongyus.

No, I was thinking, would you change something looking back at your experience? Would you change something?

Um, you know what, there's, it's impossible to change the past, so you can't do that. And, um, so I never, ever, ever look back. I'm sorry, wait a second. Can I change my answer?

Sure.

I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

I'm kidding.

I mean, shit, like, are you kidding me? I don't know if you— I mean, you know, here's the thing, though, is that like, I have a view, like, who you're with, where you are, what you do. Those are the 3 big, big things. And I've had 0 for 3 before. I'm in a shitty environment, shitty relationship, shitty, uh, you know, sort of role, whatever. Right. And I'm, I absolutely adore my wife, uh, Em Roblin, 3 kids. I love living in Bali. I moved here, became a pandemic refugee during COVID after a quarter century in China. And like, you know, uh, that's 3-year anniversary this, this week. And, uh, I love what I do. I'm, I'm, I'm the dumbest guy in the room with Web3. And I don't say that with false modesty. I'm like, Learning new stuff all the time. So that's great, right? You go back and you change one flutter of the butterfly wings. You're like, well, shit, I sat across from that guy and he asked me to invest and I didn't. And if I invested, I'd be a billionaire now, but then maybe I'd be dead or I'd be like, you know, just alone and miserable or who knows, right? Or whatever. Like there would be like, you know, some sort of famine in Africa because of that. Like who, you know, you can't, you can't change anything, right?

Yeah.

Right. But, uh, uh, the beautiful part is you can learn from your own mistakes. I think it, I think it's fine. I think it's fine learning from mistakes, but it's much better to learn from other people's mistakes. And there's some really good shit out there. Like so many great books. Like people should get the F off of social media and stop doom scrolling and doing that. Like read books.

Yeah.

I read a book a week. And I have aging parents and kids and multiple businesses. And I, um, you know, I have one on my phone that's audio. I have one on my phone that's, uh, on Moon+ Reader. And then I have a Kindle and I rotate 3 different, um, 3 different books. The average book's 250 pages. You divide that by 7, you're talking like, you know, 35, uh, pages a day and a page a minute, 35 minutes. You can't not read 35 minutes a day, especially when you're like in the bathroom, on at the, at the gym, somewhere in between waiting for something. Um, so, and then you read books and you really learn some real, real, you know, really true wisdom and learnings. And I think that's, that, that's where like you guys are finishing up an MBA program at Peking University. Congratulations. And like, that's where you're learning just is beginning. You, you gotta be continuous learner.

Yeah.

And, you know, and also interact with a lot of people and challenge a lot of ideas. Get like, seek out people who are going to put the kibosh, like be negative about your idea and like find out why. And find people that are actually not just cynical bastards, but who are like, really have done some stuff before and like, you know, be like, learn from that. Like there, there's a lot of ways to like save yourself from a lot of pain in the future. But you're still going to get your ass kicked.

Absolutely. I mean, that's a feature of this program, right? Always, that we're currently on, which is a good thing. And we have time for one final question. And I just wanted to ask, what would be one piece of advice you would give to, I guess, would-be entrepreneurs in this current time period we're in? looking to, I guess, in many respects, sort of follow a similar path to you into China or looking to sort of get involved with startups in China, what would you give them as a piece of advice?

I would say the ship has sailed quite a while ago for entrepreneurs to start something in China. There's probably maybe a small window to leverage Chinese talent to be able to kind of create this kung fu ball of power, push it out to the rest of the world. But that's a, that's a pretty rare skillset to be able to recruit and manage and retain Chinese staff. And, you know, doing stuff in China, just like, just like forget it. Like it's just, it's become the most competitive, market in the world. And the average user there is the most spoiled and most demanding in the world. And it's, you know, there's just, it's a red ocean. It's really, it's really rough. But, you know, Southeast Asia, that's kind of wide open. A few years ago, I started advocating for my students to come down here. Like, you know, it's all that is old is new again, you know, it's like a different cycle. Like, how did I, how did you get into China at that time? It's like, well, because there was nobody there. And it was like, Was still underdeveloped. And now to go in, if you don't have the language and the culture and the, you know, all the other, you know, skills to be able to manage stuff in China, there really is a completely different skill set there than, you know, I mean, maybe like, oh, I'm a Chinese speaker, I've been studying Chinese since maybe, you know, maybe I'm American-born Chinese, or maybe I've been studying Chinese for 10 years or something, but I'm only in my 20s and I want to go work for TikTok or You know, one of these big players, Shein, or, uh, and be their international person, like maybe, like, like that's a, you know, that's, that's possible. Um, but I think if you really have ambitions to go do something on your own, um, China ain't the place. That's, that's for sure.

So Southeast Asia is the next, is the next big one then in your, in your opinion?

Yeah, it's already happening and there's still more and more opportunities.

Yeah.

As the GDP per capita increases and as, you know, uh, more and more people come online and have the purchasing power and, you know, and then maybe Africa as well too. Like that's, that's coming like up next too, right? There's, yep. All, there's always a, a new, a new kind of bus, uh, that comes around.

Well, uh, Rich, that's all we've got time for today, but thank you so much for joining us on Business in Bubble Tea.

William and Roberta, ladies and gentlemen. I don't care if you're on the toilet or if you're in a meeting. I'm sure you forgot something when you got here. No, I didn't.