Tiff Roberts' Odyssey from Big Sky Country to the Big Smoke

Hello and welcome to the Rich Robinson Show. I'm your host, Rich Robinson. Over the past 25 years, I've been an entrepreneur, investor, advisor, and professor here in Asia. After nearly a quarter of a century in China, I'm now based here in Bali, Indonesia, the island of the gods. Asia is my home now. 60% of the world's population also lives here, but I would contend 80% of the world's dynamism and opportunity is right here in the region. On the show, you'll hear candid and fun conversations with some of my friends and colleagues, people I've met along my journey, entrepreneurs, operators, experts that will help you unlock actionable insights around the Asia region and the entrepreneurial agility that actually defines it. This first season, season 1 of The Rich Robinson Show, is titled At the Speed of China. Like, wait for it, at the speed of light. Things happen fast in China, and in this season 1, we're gonna take a deeper look at that— the rapid economic development over the past few decades, as well as the speed and cycles of innovation taking place all day, every day, right now.

Let's go, Jio! And we are back, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls. Welcome, willkommen, to the Rich Robinson Show Season 1 at the speed of China. And I have my old buddy Somebody who I had heard legend of way before I actually met him. And I have always been a huge fan, both of his warm, intelligent personality, but also his writings and all that he has done in his China travels. We have so many mutual friends. We got off on a tangent to— started talking about stuff. And I'm like, we gotta record this stuff. Welcome to the pod, my friend. We're talking to—

Hi.

Tiff Roberts, ladies and gentlemen, welcome.

Thanks so much, Rich. It's great to be on.

So great for you to take the time and tell us where you're calling in from. I won't break the surprise of like your awesome new role.

Yeah, so I'm sitting, I'm sitting in my office here at the University of Montana, Missoula, Montana, which happens to be where I grew up, my hometown. And as of Last summer, I have a role here where official title is Director of China Affairs at the Mike Mankey Center at the University of Montana. So yeah, so I'm here building out a China program. We got lots of lots of interest. I teach a couple classes here at the university. They fill up to capacity every time. A lot of a lot of kids that are really interested. I'm teaching modern China history and Chinese politics.

So great. So we have so many mutual friends, and I remember when you got this position, everybody was high-fiving each other. Like it's such an amazing, incredible full circle. It's like the alchemist where you know you come home and like you know the circle is closed, and it's just beautiful.

Yeah, needless to say, I'm pleased. Like I said, this is my hometown. I came back here when I left. There wasn't a lot of China stuff going on here, but we're changing that now.

So let's take the loop the other way around. Let's. get to your origin story from Big Sky Country to the Big Smoke, as it were.

Yeah. So I'm often asked, including by my students, but others as well, about, you know, how did I get interested in China? A kid growing up in Missoula, Montana, you know, in high school in the '80s, way back when. And it's true, there wasn't a lot of Chinese people certainly living here then. It's interesting. The first exposure I had was actually through my father. My father was, and until he passed away a few years ago, most of his life was a Buddhist. And he was very interested in Asia, China. He gave me in high school a book, an introduction to Chinese philosophy in English, long before I started studying Mandarin Chinese. And I read it and thought it was interesting. Finished high school, went off to California to Stanford, where I actually started out studying French and that didn't go very well at all. My problem, not French's problem. I was struggling with it. But I did take also an introduction to Chinese philosophy and an introduction to Buddhism class, I think my first year at Stanford. And then my second year, I started to study Chinese language. I'd say one more thing about that. That was long enough ago that my advisor, who was wonderful and gave me all sorts of great advice, but in this one case maybe didn't, said to me when I told her I wanted to study Chinese— this was the '80s, remember— she said, that's all fine and wonderful that you want to study an exotic Asian language, but you need to study Japanese. Remember, this is the '80s. Japan's going to take over the world, just like we've heard in recent years about China. So she told me, if you want to be practical, you should be learning Japanese. And I like to make up this story or tell this story about how I looked into the future and I knew that China would become, you know, the world's second largest economy, you know, maybe going to surpass the US. And I knew everything that was going to happen. And that of course was completely untrue. I was interested mainly because I was interested in the Chinese characters, something completely different. I wanted to study a language, even a writing system different from English. And I was interested in the Communist Revolution in China. So, so it had nothing to do with looking into the future or any sort of foresight.

Fascinating. So I really want to double-click on your dad's Buddhist foundation. So I was in Davos last month. There's a Tibetan Buddhist Rinpoche whose parents are from Tibet. He grew up in Nepal, runs a monastery, and he's building this peace sanctuary in Lumbini, Nepal, the birthplace of the Buddha.

Yeah.

And he was at Davos last year and he met my colleague who is kind of like Mr. Metaverse, like the tech philosopher, poet king, the Keanu Reeves of Web3. Everybody loves him. And so I've been tasked with building this peace metaverse around that. And I hosted Rinpoche in Bali here for a meditation retreat. in December, and he spent the holidays with us, a very Buddhist Christmas.

Ding!

And I've been really fascinated in just the last few months with Buddhism. And it's interesting because I always felt that you had this, this kind of— I think it was nature and nurture— that you were like this very even keel, very kind of like living Buddha in a way amidst, you know, other people in China, right? You really do have that. And I wonder how much of that is like apple not falling far from the tree, or, you know, getting stuff modeled by your dad or some sort of intentional Buddhist thing, or, you know, how did your dad become a Buddhist in Missoula, Montana? It seems preposterous and awesome at the same time.

Yeah. Well, I think he first became interested in Buddhism in the '70s. So this is sort of the, you know, not long after the '60s, a lot of interest in Eastern religion across the US and across the world. And so he was interested in that. My mother actually, speaking of sort of a centeredness, she was actually would do Quaker meetings where they would sit in silence. So my mother's doing that. My father, with the help of my mother, they were married at the time, set up a zazen in our house in Missoula, Montana, which was a place where people from the community that were becoming interested in Buddhism could come and— I'm sorry, it was a zendo. It was Zen Buddhist. It's called a zendo is what it's actually called. And they would come and sit zazen. And along that was actually an influence as well, because for that room that was, you know, designated in our house as a zendo for people in the community to come and sit and do practice Zen Buddhism, sit in silence. My father will, you know, put— there were everything from Japanese paintings to various books that he bought and so on. And we had that space in our house and the little, the little bells you ring when you're sitting in meditation. So that was there when I was a little kid, you know, in the '70s. And I definitely had an effect on me. I think I remember it really vividly. It made me, you know, made me and my sister stand out from our friends. There weren't any other, as far as I know, there weren't any other Zen dos in Missoula at that point. But there was interest in the small group of people here back then in the '70s. So we had that. So that was in the house. And then, as I said, eventually my father did give me this book. He had a fairly strong interest in Asia outside of Buddhism as well. And when I finished high school and went off to college, I was not planning to continue, or I wasn't planning to study China. But I pretty took those classes sort of as an experiment to explore my interest and then ultimately started doing the Chinese language and then doing more political science studies of China in college.

Fascinating.

I always love to understand the origin story, especially people like, you know, from our cohort who are on the wrong side of 50 and like, like why, because the '80s is really an unusual time to get that. You know, somebody's like, oh, my uncle was, you know, in the Flying Tigers, or there was, you know, a business trip, or it's always like maybe some kind of thread. But having a zendao in your house and like having that space, I think, is the most unique origin story I've heard of you getting interested in Chinese and Chinese characters. And I'm sure that had an influence. I mean, I grew up Irish Catholic in the Boston area, and there was like you know, a lot of anger and aggression that was modeled to me. And that definitely had a big influence in my life until I figured out how to like, is that a fucking challenge to be like, okay, I, oh, I don't have to react. I didn't know nobody, I didn't, nobody told me that. Right. And it served me well in China during, during those heady years, but now I've dialed it way back.

Living in New York. I lost some of my Buddhist, if I ever had it, which I don't think I did, but I certainly, you know, driving in Beijing was, you know, in terms of, I learned really what road rage is. I have to say, I'm happy that I've overcome it. I think it's a part of my past that is no longer With me, right?

Me too. It's like especially like road rage in China is whole because it just you know the whole idea of like in some ways Buddhism of like every time you cross the river, it's a different river. So you know change is constant. But the change in Beijing on the road was that there's gonna be another asshole that pulled to cut you off or does something crazy every second, right? It was like an unbelievable flow. At some point. I just realized it was a great test for me to just let it go. Just let it all go.

Yeah.

And a Buddhist test, if you will. Yeah.

That's great.

So then tell me about like, so you're interested in Chinese characters and then you get to study Chinese more deeply. And then what was your first foray into the mainland?

Yeah. So what happened was I started studying Chinese. I did 2 and a half years at Stanford. And I'm one of those of the generation that my first step in the Chinese-speaking world was Taipei. Taiwan. So I actually, you know, applied as a senior in college, and within, I think it was 10 days after graduating from college, I moved to Taipei. And I was in a language program at a university in Taipei called Taiwan Shifen Daxue. I had thought that, okay, I'll do— it was a 3-month program. I didn't apply to a year-long program that was very prestigious at Taida, the Stanford program, actually. Also affiliated with the university I was at, Stanford. I didn't do it because I didn't think I wanted to stay that long in Taiwan, and I thought I would do the 3 months in Taipei and then go travel in the mainland and go back and probably go to graduate school. Well, you know, fast forward 4 years later, I've traveled to India, Nepal, Thailand repeatedly. I finally made it to the mainland. I love this. My first step onto the mainland, was in on Hainan Island. So obviously not—

Also very unusual.

You know, we used to do visa runs out of Taipei. I kept studying Chinese. I started teaching English as well in Taiwan. Again, as I said, I was ultimately there for 4 years, but I would do these great trips back.

But back then you couldn't go Taiwan to mainland direct, right?

No. And there was what we called visa runs because you could only stay 6 months in Taiwan. The cheapest place you could go was Hong Kong. So I got to know Hong Kong really well. I would run over there, get a new visa, go back to Taiwan, go to India, go to Nepal, go to Thailand, et cetera. And then I finally was like, well, I finally got to make it to China, the mainland. And so I fly into Hong Kong and I take a boat from Hong Kong to Haikou and do a month on Hainan actually. It was pretty wild back then. The west side was fascinating because it was the, a lot of Xiaosuminzu and ethnic minorities there. And the road wasn't very well developed. It all went down the east side. And of course, Sanya was not developed at all. None of those 5-star resorts. But anyway, a month there, and then I took a boat from Haikou to Beihai in Guangxi.

Wow. And then what year is this?

'91. I had actually gone to Taiwan in '88. And like I said, I had this 3 months in Taipei, then I'll be in the mainland, then I'll be back in the US applying to graduate school. Well, 3 years later, I've been to India, I've been to Thailand, Nepal. I finally make it to Haikou and to Hainan and then to Beihai. On that trip, I spent about 3 months. Hainan, I mean Sichuan and Yunnan, pretty much a month in each place. So that would have been '91.

And like share an anecdote about Yunnan and Sichuan back then. Like that was still 2 of my favorite provinces, but like very much, you know, Tiangao, Hongdian, like very like different from Beijing and like on, right?

Yeah, it was great. I went out to Rayli and Rayli was the wild, wild, wild west. Tragically, there was a major Heroin addiction problem there. Yeah. Already a major HIV/AIDS problem.

Mm-hmm.

And it hadn't really spread to the rest of China. And it had a lot to do with the jade trade, I think. And these Burmese, the town of Ruili then was full of Burmese traders that were coming back and forth across the border. And it was a very, very crazy town. And so that was probably the most eye-opening things I saw on that visit, going out to Ruili in Yunnan.

Fascinating.

Wow.

And then back to Taipei, and then you were like, I'm gonna put my Flag in the sand and come to get thee to the mainland, young man.

Yeah, so back to Taipei, and then I finally applied to graduate school, applied to a master's program in international affairs at Columbia, the School of International Public Affairs there. So then I went back to graduate school in '92, and after four years in Taiwan and that visit to southwestern China, and did a sort of jumping all over the place here. I did a summer internship. halfway through my 2-year master's degree program where I was based in Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia. My official job was introducing the case study-based teaching method to students at Mongolia National University.

Wow.

And so I showed up. So I flew to Beijing. I think it was the first visit, just on my way to Ulaanbaatar. And Columbia, the university I was at, had arranged for these case studies to be shipped to a friend that worked at the Ford Foundation. And so I went over to the Ford Foundation office and was given these big boxes of case studies, you know, paper. It was all not computerized case studies, you know, the Cuban Missile Crisis, you know, Bay of Pigs, all this stuff. And took them on with, on the plane up to Ulaanbaatar, came back, spent 3 months there teaching at the university, started freelancing.

So that was the first time I went to Beijing and to UBU was '93. And that was much closer to Mao than to now China. And then. UB was like much closer to Genghis Khan than to now, probably.

Yeah. I remember, I remember the runway invitation.

Tell us a story about that.

Yeah.

Well, you remember it wasn't too long after they'd had their first democratic election. They were getting out from under the hand finally of the Russians. And you know, it was the tough time in Ulaanbaatar and all of Mongolia. One of my great regrets is I saw very little of Mongolia because there were petrol shortages, gas shortages, and it was really hard to get out of Ulaanbaatar for that reason. Runaway inflation. You remember, they're like, go get a meal. You'd have a stack of the the currency, the tukrik, that would be like literally that big. You know, you have an enormous stack of it. Of course, reeked of mutton. You know, everyone eats mutton. So you go into the one Ulaanbaatar hotel. I think it was. It was like one of the wonderful restaurants. You go in there and for a meal, which was expensive for for locals there. Yeah, you take a stack of your mutton smelling tukrik and. set it on the table and get your, you know, these Russian delicacies and so on. So Ulaanbaatar was pretty crazy.

But also crazy of like people drinking and like, there was an edge to it, right? It felt a little frontier town and like, like anything could happen, right? And you're, and like, it's not like the Mongolians are not afraid of fighting either, right? That's kind of a, literally like a signature. It's a feature, not a bug, right?

I spent a lot of time trying to avoid getting into fights and I, and I've never, person who's never been in fights. I was not asking for it, but interestingly, being able to speak Chinese, which I had pretty much mastered, gotten good, pretty good at, at that point, was not something that the Mongolians smiled upon. That's right.

There's a lot of— I don't think it's any different now, right? So yeah.

Yeah, no, I don't think so. I've been back a number of times and yeah, there's a lot, there's strong feelings about China. I think obviously being sandwiched between Russia and China, landlocked, deeply reliant on those 2 big giants. Has made them sort of very, very sensitive about, you know, influence.

Understandably.

Yeah. So, yeah. So that was a wild time. There was, as you said, a terrible problem with alcoholism. I remember getting up in the morning to go teach and seeing, you know, people passed out at the bus stop.

Sometimes a dead body. Yeah. Like even, right? So it was like frozen in there, right?

Yeah.

So, I mean, like that wasn't even—

still people riding horses in Ulaanbaatar, which—

that's what I meant. It was like, it was as close to like Genghis Khan could rock in there and go, oh, I get this. Like this hasn't changed that much, right? It's like, that's how crazy, like that's the point of this book and this podcast, how quickly that rate of change has happened in a micro and macro way, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I went back a year after that. I finished my master's degree and within 6 months or 7 months of finishing that, I left New York City and moved to Beijing for January '95. And that started my mainland odyssey, which I call it an odyssey, but just simply, I was, I mean, I was there for.

I think an odyssey is a great word for it.

Yeah, a long journey.

You were on an amazing journey, front row seat. You documented it and you were a real participant in that, right?

Yeah, so that was amazing. And I mean, just to jump back to Mongolia, I was, as a reporter, which was what I did in China for so many years, I was able to go back to Ulaanbaatar for a number of stories covering elections. I did a feature story for the magazine I was working for, Businessweek, on the so-called resource curse. So the situation that nations like Mongolia unfortunately find themselves in when they have an abundance of resources in the ground, but you know, it ends up benefiting a very small portion of the population and corrupting the system. I went back there when the resource boom was taking off to sort of document the problems. There was real poverty still then. The big ger villages, the yurt villages were still there. They still are today around the outskirts of Ulaanbaatar. But anyway, the money was starting to flow in. And so I was interviewing dealmakers from the US, from England that were coming in there, miners, private equity people. I interviewed a guy who bought up all these old Russian-style apartment blocks in the heart of Ulaanbaatar. And he got a model. He was renovating them and renting them out at a high price. I haven't followed up what happened to him eventually. But anyway, again, the speed of Asia, it was amazing to see. How that place changed. It's been a number of years since I've been back. So that was Mongolia. China is a whole nother story.

Yeah, fascinating. So then you decided that journalism was your way to keep the lights on and to keep you motivated. What was that first foray?

Yeah, so that's a good way to put it. I mean, I always like to say, when you look at the journalists in China— and it's changed a lot over the last 5 years, I know— But in any case, I think it was long true that you had sort of 2 groups of foreign correspondents there. And one group were those who were career foreign correspondents rotating around the world, 3 years in Beijing, maybe cover the war in Afghanistan back when that was a situation, you know, Brussels, the EU or whatever. And they were really passing through town, but, you know, spending good years and doing good journalism from China. Then there was the other core, which I see myself as. Where the interest very much preceded the journalism. Instead, I was studying China way back when, long before I thought of being a journalist. And there's a bunch of people like that. I don't know if I need to mention names. People like Andy Brown, Charles Hutzler, all these people. And there's a lot more than that. In the case of Andy, you know, grew up as a kid in Hong Kong. But I felt I was one of those people that was interested in China and thought, what can I do that allows me to live and work here and also, you know, is fascinating and allows me to learn. And journalism was ultimately the decision that I came upon. That's what I decided to do. And, you know, no regrets. It was a great way to live and share.

I love that crew. Amazing, intrepid, just self-selected, like really gritty, you know, intelligent, driven, no bullshit crew. I played— that was my first foray. I joined the Foreign Correspondents Club in Hong Kong. Just because I was doing some side journalism, and then I justified it because they had a gym, and I was like, okay, I don't have to pay for a gym, and I can just be around these journos who reminded me of being back in Boston because, you know, smart and funny, but also that's bullshit. I'm calling bullshit. Like, that's what I love about journalists is like, no, that's total bullshit, and I'm calling you out on that. Like, I'm skeptical, right? I mean, I'm curious, I'm engaged, but like, no, that's— come on, that's the press release. And I, I love that, right? I love the, the reality and the raw You know, the raw turbo engine under the hood and like debate shit and be like, all right. And then so I played basketball with, you know, Scott Kronick and, you know, Jamie Floracruz and Pete Hessler and, you know, just that all of those like, you know, media PR, you know, journo crew for many years. And, you know, I just saw Kaiser and he's like on the periphery of that, right? And like, I just listened to his podcast with Pete Hessler and I've had Kaiser on the pod. I want to get Pete on the pod. It's like, that's just such a great recruit, right? Because you're really, really getting your hands in the loom, so to speak, right?

I have to just— a quick public service announcement or PR for the organization I'm working for, the Mansfield Center. We actually have Pete Hessler coming here to lecture in person. I think it's April 3rd. It's right at the beginning of April. He's going to do a lecture here at the University of Montana, and then he's going to go off to a place called Kalispell, Montana, up near Glacier Park. And so, we're very excited about that.

He's the best. Kaiser's even said, and Kaiser doesn't mince words or suffer fools, or like, that Pete's his favorite nonfiction author. And I mean, Rivertown, Oracle Bones, you know, all that. Like, he's— like, I still remember Rivertown. Like, that was such a seminal book that people should definitely read. And I love one— like, he's great at showing, not telling. And he would run, and there's this rock with all these Chinese characters. And like, he actually had, you know, he showed how like, as he ran, the characters started transforming into words that he started to understand every time that he ran past there as his Chinese improved, right? And I just thought that was a beautiful mechanism. And, you know, he has that one scene in the book where he gets in, in a fight with like a shoeshine guy, and he's like, you know, what am I doing? I'm like a public asshole to a shoeshine guy. But like, you know, you just get— there's so much emotion and so much static and tension there, right? That he was very vulnerable and open about that. And you're just like, I've done stuff like that too. Right. And I just like, I really admire him a lot.

Yeah.

Rivertown is one of my go-to China books to give to all people that know China, people that don't know China. I've given Rivertown to a lot of people. It's what a wonderful book. And obviously Pete's other books as well.

Amazing.

Yeah.

And like, I don't know, like Evan Osnos, another guy that I'm trying to get on the pod. I really, really like as well too. And there's so many great, you know, and then also, you know, Paul Mooney as well, who I, he was another guy I played basketball with.

You know, this is a list of all great friends. So, this is what happened.

Yeah.

Just brilliant, salt of the earth, just amazing, great people. So, I think you chose super well. It felt to me that you were genetically engineered in a lab to basically do what you did, right? I think you did it super well and you had an amazing reputation and following. And, I loved reading your writing and always enjoyed our chats. And, tell us some of the trials, tribulations, and triumphs, some anecdotes along the way while you're on the front lines there?

Yeah. Well, I mean, first of all, I'd say I had an editor, a very wise editor who said to me at one point, you know, we've made the right choice, he and I and all everyone who decides to be a journalist. He's like, in what other career can you be, in effect, a perpetual student where you're able to choose a topic that you find interesting and hopefully you can convince your editors that it's interesting too. And this particular editor was great in supporting story ideas. And then you get to go seek out all the smartest minds on that topic and just sit down and, you know, you may be ignorant, you're not, you're a little bit less ignorant by the time you finish the interview and write the story. And that I always, that really resonated with me. I really felt that way. I loved it. I, you know, I was a journalist for almost a quarter century. What a wonderful way to get by and learn a lot and have a wonderful time. So anyway. One of the most memorable experiences I would say is back in not too many years after I moved to Beijing, which was in January '95, a couple years later, I went out to the far west or the west, the southwest for the first time as a journalist. I'd been there, as I said earlier, on that trip as a backpacker. And I went to 2 places. I first went to the consummate factory town of Dongguan, China, halfway between Shenzhen and Guangzhou. A place that, by the way, I probably went to dozens and dozens of times over the years and absolutely fascinating. Met some migrant workers. They all happened to hail from this little town in Guizhou, a place called Pinghua or Pinghuacun, Pinghua Village.

Like, like, like one of the poorest provinces in China.

Yes, exactly. Yeah. One of the very poorest provinces. And ultimately I was able to go back. A couple of them were back during that visit. I'd met them previously in Dongguan and made this connection to this very small village of a little over 1,000 people. In just this stunning, beautiful area. People know about Guangxi with the karst landscape. Not as many people like you know, but not everyone knows that Guizhou is equally beautiful with karst mountains.

Huangguoshu, and like, isn't that where the waterfall is?

Yeah, this town is actually close to the Guangxi border. But in any case, I was lucky enough to get to know these migrant workers and then keep in contact with them over 20-some years and go back to their village repeatedly. there wasn't a guest house or anything in the village. Every time I would go, another friend would welcome me to, you know, crash in their farmhouse there. And this ultimately became the book that I wrote that came out in 2020, The Myth of Chinese Capitalism: The Work of the Factory and the Future of the World. And it all stemmed from this reporting. There were 2 stories— I should mention the stories that took me there— 2 stories that took me there. One was called The Great Migration. I think it was in the year 2000, I think. And it was a look at the migrant workers of China, which the book I eventually write is very much about. And the other reporting trip there was for a second cover story for Businessweek on a policy that China had at the time under then-President Jiang Zemin called Develop the West. And there was this realization amongst top officials, including the president, Jiang Zemin, general secretary of the Communist Party, that after all those years, that point, 20-some years of reform and opening There had been great wealth generated, but a lot of it was still concentrated on the coasts. And so the interior of China, there were vast differences in incomes and wealth between the coast and the interior, Guizhou being in the interior. So this special policy was, you know, to the credit of the Chinese government, they said this needs to change, and they put this big policy in place to try to redress those imbalances and try to develop the interior. It worked in some ways, it didn't work in other ways. But in any case, I was out there reporting a story on this signature policy of Jiang Zemin to develop the West. And that took me for the first time to this little village that I mentioned in Guizhou.

Yeah. And I know that book was super well received. Tell us some of the key takeaways from the book.

Yeah. Well, I mean, the big sort of picture, as I said, I spent 20 years with a group of these migrant workers from this village and some watched their lives develop. Most of them eventually have returned, you know, maybe not to their village, but to some urban areas within the province of Guizhou. The big takeaway for me was China is still, as a country, the government is still dealing with real inequality amongst— again, that the develop the West policy never fully solved this great gulf between the interior of China and the coastal area, which did so well with entry to the World Trade Organization and reform and opening. And this is still a problem today. you still in China got almost half the population that is born in rural China. And this is very stark for them because of the continued existence of the hukou policy, or the household registration policy, which basically—

So I've heard there's like might be 200 million people in China that are in cities that don't have the hukou, so they don't have—

That's right, yeah.

Services and, you know.

Exactly. So that means that their healthcare, the education if they have children, for their pensions once they retire, all have to be tapped back in the countryside. And so, you have this class of people, migrant workers, who are living in the cities, but they're in many ways, I refer to them as second-class citizens because they don't have access to the same social welfare and protections. And there's all sorts of problems related to that. Ultimately, one of the takeaways in the book is jumping into the big macroeconomic question, China has made it very clear over the last 10, 15 years that they need to move towards a much more domestic consumption-driven economy, one that is powered by the spending— one is powered by the spending power of its own people. You know, the trade war under the previous US president, all those things, COVID, the pandemic, all those things have made the old model look shaky, the old model of producing low-cost goods in China and selling them at cheap prices to the world. That doesn't necessarily work to the degree that it did for so many years, and it did work for so many years. And then, of course, you have the issue with demography in China, and you have labor prices going up. So it's not as cheap to produce those goods for the world anymore in China. So anyway, China has had this policy of trying to transition to a much more domestic consumption or the spending power of its own people model, and they've done it very well in the cities. But because of things like the the hukou, the household registration policy. Because of other various forms of discrimination against people from rural China, they're really sort of coming up against a wall. They need to figure out how to better integrate those people, hundreds of millions of people, into the Chinese economy, into society, if they want the economy to keep growing as fast. Or maybe it's not going to grow as fast as it did. That's inevitable. You know, things can't keep soaring up for too long. But if they want to keep growth at a steady pace, They need to figure that out. So that's sort of a big picture takeaway of the book. And then the book has a lot of human interest stories though. I spent so much time with those wonderful people and I tell their stories, those who try to come back and do business, those who try to do business in Dongguan. Just fascinating, fascinating stuff. Amazing people.

So over the last couple of decades, what are some of the observable changes that you've really taken away from being in that Even, even though it hasn't changed nearly as rapidly as the rest of China, there's probably been some really stark differences in terms of maybe urbanization within those provinces and societal changes.

Yeah. I mean, the bigger picture was the one I just sort of referred to. I think that because of that policy that I mentioned, the hukou policy, and because of other things as well, China faces this split amongst those from rural China and those from urban China. I should mention as well. That the real estate boom and property boom that so many people got rich on, including some of our friends, not just Chinese people, that is very much an urban phenomenon. For those people that are actually really real Chinese, there's what they— and I talk about this in my book as well, but there's— I won't get too deep into it, but basically there's a dual land policy, which means that urbanites, people living in the cities, are able to have these— it's not flat-out ownership, it's usually what, a 70-year lease? But in effect, they have ownership of the apartments. They've been able to monetize that, sell them, rent them out at market rates. This is not true in the countryside. If you're a farmer with a plot of land, you cannot sell it. It's officially designated, and this is a Maoist legacy, as part of the collective. You have to go through the local government or the local party, who then can do things like rezone the land in effect so that it can be not agriculture, but instead be—

Housing.

Commercial or residential or factory. So what you see, along with the other policy, the hukou policy, you have this dual land policy, which again is a huge barrier to people from that part of China from becoming wealthy. So I think some of the great successes you've seen in western China— there's phenomenal infrastructure put in place. As you know, we've all been on high-speed rail in China. It goes not far from the village that I mentioned, Binghua. Doesn't go to Binghua, but it goes not too far from there. There's the High-speed rail goes from, you know, Guiyang up to Chongqing, I think, and down to Guangzhou. And it's amazing. And it has helped with economic development. But you still have these obstacles that mean that for some people, lives have not changed enough. They've certainly changed, but they haven't changed enough. Even when I look back to my first visit back there, and again, I think it was 2000. Just one last thing. I mean, it matters for the multinationals of the world. That are betting on the continued growth of the China market. Now, obviously, the last couple of years have been rough. That faith has been shaken to a degree by many multinationals. But nevertheless, I think there's still a hope that ultimately the number of consumers can keep growing in China. The other half can become part of, you know, become consumers and ultimately benefit the bottom lines of the multinationals of the world. And that can't happen unless some of these economic issues and Old, what I call legacy policies are dealt with.

So, and when was the last time you were back in the mainland?

I am so overdue. I haven't been back since before the pandemic, and I'm hoping nothing to nothing to you know publicize right now, but I'm hoping to be back there this year. So I'm working on that.

Oh great! Yeah, I just hosted a bunch of Schwartzman scholars from Tsinghua here in Bali. They did a deep dive. They do these deep dives in India. Korea, also across Indonesia. And I have given a guest lecture there before, but I'd love to, if you're not already in touch with that Schwarzman crew, to have you go and visit their campus. I don't know if you've been on the Schwarzman School of Management.

Let's keep talking about that.

It's really wonderful building.

Young people that have participated, including a former intern here from the Mansfield Center.

They're ridiculous. It's like less than a 1% acceptance rate, and they're all just preposterously accomplished in their 20s. And, you know, one of the most amazing things about that program is that they have, you know, it's 130 scholars in an 8-story courtyard, 3 stories below ground, the top floor is professors, and then 2 stories for the student quarters to live in. And they have their own gym and their own pub. And, you know, it's the Ray Dalio conference room and the Wong Pub and self-contained, really magical kind of ivory courtyard in a way. But in that courtyard, they have like a couple of people from West Point, a couple of people from Annapolis. And they have the equivalent, you know, naval military academies in China. And they're in like full dress uniform. Like they're all living in the same building. And, you know, I mean, like that's something that I think I hope like in 20, you know, 40-something and be like, wait a second. Like put that little, you know, cover over the red button and let me just say, hey, Xu Bofei, hey, Zhibiang, hey, Hao Chubujian, right? Like we're at the Schwarzman Program. Are we really doing this?

Right.

And like, let's have a little dialogue. Right. So I think there's so little dialogue between You know, China and the U.S. now—it's really gotten a lot more darkened. I don't know if have you been in touch with Mitch Presnick? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mitch is an old friend. We've spoken fairly recently.

Yeah, because you guys have like similar, you know, sort of positions. I think really shining light across the Pacific to both countries, and I think it's super, super important. Completely agree.

I mean, I think one of the great—I shouldn't say tragedies because it's reversible, I think—but to see the collapse in. exchange of students, the number of American students in China. The pandemic had a whole lot to do with it, but also tensions between Beijing and Washington. And I just think that is a great, you know, that needs to be changed. And so I'm hoping that, that I can play some role in that as well. And, you know, stay tuned. We'll see what happens. But in any case, I think it's great that I'm sure you share that belief. I think we need more young Chinese people coming here. We need more young Americans going to China. We need those contacts. It's what took people like us to, you know, to that interest in China took us there years ago. And I just think that it's really important that that continue. I think that I was very sad to see the end of the Peace Corps program in China. Yeah. The Fulbright program. I think those things should still be in existence. So anyway, there's some hopeful signs, certainly after last November with the talk between Xi Jinping and US President Joe Biden.

You know, I've said this once before, there's a comedian, Joe Wong. Who lived, you know, he's from Dongbei and lived 20 years in Boston. You know, he still tours around in Huangxi, China. You know, he did the radio television correspondence dinner with, you know, Obama and Biden. He's been on Colbert, and he's like, China's my mom, America's my wife, and I am cowering in the kitchen in fear because my mom and my wife are having a big fight, and my mom and my wife both have nuclear weapons.

I actually heard him; he performed at an AmCham. Thing in Beijing that I was at. I don't know how they got it. It was, I guess it was the end, the big party gala of the year that the American Chamber—

I actually introduced him to that. I did some shows with him before at ISB and other places too. So he's a great guy. He became a friend and yeah, I really like his angle and mission as well too. So, but hey, Tiff Roberts, ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for the time and insights. I love your history and what you're working on now. You know, the beautiful part is you still have many decades of contribution to give back, to shine that light across the Pacific, as I said. So thank you, and hope to see you in person, give you a hug sometime soon. Come to Bali.

I would love to. Well, thank you, Rich, for having me on. It was a wonderful conversation, a lot of fun, and a lot of good memories. And next time we'll make some more memories. I got to get to Bali. I would love to do that. Terrific. China, China, China first, and then yeah. We'll talk about Bali after that.

Sounds great. All right, my friend, thank you.

Thanks, Rich. That's a wrap.

Thanks for listening to this episode of The Rich Robinson Show, Season 1, At the Speed of China. Visit therichrobinson.com/show to smash that subscribe button Please also go to iTunes or whatever platform of choice, rate and comment. And until next time, thank you very much. Zaijian. Cheers, y'all.