Bonus Episode: A Conversation with Tom Junod

Welcome to The Neighborhood, a Mr. Rogers tribute podcast. This is a special bonus podcast this week. It's a little different than our normal show. David Dalt is not with us this week, but he was in spirit. He was so excited about this interview, and we had been talking about it for some time. And this episode is brought to you thankfully by the good people at Sony Pictures. Who are bringing us the new movie A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood. And it was wonderful to be able to work with Sony Pictures and bring you this interview with Tom Junod. You're gonna hear more about Tom in a moment, but the new movie is really based upon Tom's story, Can You Say Hero?, that appeared in Esquire back in 1998. And the movie really is about the relationship. It captures kind of the heart of the relationship that Fred Rogers and Tom had. And I'm just so pleased that we are able to bring you this episode. Tom was wonderful, just a really great guy, and I hope we're gonna get to bring him on the show again to talk even more and just share about some of the other great things in his life that he has going on. But he couldn't have been nicer. His answers are really interesting, and it's great to find out more about Fred Rogers throughout this episode. I even learned a couple of things I didn't know, and, and I've read a lot about the man and researched a lot, and you know if you follow me on the @MrRogersSay Twitter account, we just have a lot of information about Fred Rogers there. But it was so great to get to hear from one of his dear friends. And as always, I am so pleased to be your host this week. And as we walk into this podcast neighborhood, I want you to know that no matter where you are from, You're welcome here, and I am glad to be your neighbor. Every daughter, every son, every tribe, and every tongue, in the spirit of Fred Rogers and the life of welcome that he lived, welcome to the neighborhood. It's so good to have Tom Junod with us this week.

My guest today in the neighborhood is award-winning journalist and senior writer at ESPN, Tom Junod. Tom has written a number of memorable pieces over the years, including "The Falling Man" and "The Terrible Boy," but he is perhaps best known for a profile article he wrote on Fred Rogers for Esquire in 1998 titled "Can You Say Hero?" That Esquire article serves as the framework of the highly anticipated new movie "A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood," in which Tom Hanks portrays Fred Rogers and Matthew Rhys portrays Lloyd Vogel, a character loosely based on Tom. The movie opens in theaters everywhere this November. Tom Junod, welcome to the neighborhood.

Well, thanks for having me.

Well, I am so glad that you could be here today. I, I was trying to think back, and I had been familiar with your writing for some time, but I think the first time I ever remember putting a face to you was in the documentary Won't You Be My Neighbor? And it was such a great film, and it was so good to get to hear what you had to say there. I'm just curious, as we start today, what was it that impressed you the most about the way the way that Morgan Neville told the story of Fred Rogers in that film?

He just made one right choice after another. I mean, even the way he didn't really spend a lot of time or energy identifying the various voices in the film. I mean, I think I was just Tom Junod friend journalist. I think that Bill Eisler was friend, colleague. I mean, it was, it was just very, it was very minimalistic in that way. And I think it was minimalistic in order to present a maximalist version of Fred. I mean, I think that Fred rightfully, you know, dominates that film from the moment you see him. I remember, I remember seeing, going to see that movie and seeing Fred in the, in the very beginning when he's in black and white and talking about modulations on the keyboard. And, you know, I mean, I hadn't seen Fred in a long time at that point. He'd been, he'd been gone a long time. And as soon as I saw him, as soon as I saw his eyes I said, "Oh, that's right, I remember now, Fred was a genius." And that feeling and that impression just never dims at any time of watching that movie.

Wow. And it is really a great film. It was just, you know, and the time that it hit, I just think the world needed some of that kind of kindness again, you know, and it was just at a perfect time. And well, and one thing that I really like about the film, and it almost reminds me a bit of your article that you wrote about Fred, the film almost makes Fred the narrator as you're watching it too. It's very clever in how that's done. And I felt like you did a bit of that years ago when you wrote your famous article now. And I'm curious about the piece that you wrote and what was the situation in your own life that led to this initial interview with friend that led to a friendship?

Well, I mean, I think that basically I had— when I was at GQ and I was in my mid-30s, pretty late in my career as a journalist when I came to GQ and started writing pieces that were very, very successful. I won 2 National Magazine Awards in a row. I had sort of come out of nowhere to achieve acclaim and success. So when my editor moved over to Esquire, I followed him there with great fanfare. That's hard to believe now that we're— magazines are barely holding on to their toehold of existence, but at the time, there was the movements of magazine writers could could be recorded with great fanfare. So I went to Esquire, and basically, you know, I kind of flopped, is really, is really, really what happened. I wrote an article. My first article when I got there was on Kevin Spacey. It was controversial in all the wrong ways, and I just, I did not know what to do either with my sudden acclaim or the sudden criticism that had come up around me. And when I met Fred, I didn't expect any of that, but I didn't expect what happened. And what happened was that he recognized that. He recognized that I was a hurting soul who needed something and decided to methodically go around and give it to me. And that's really what the story was all about. He saw more in me than I saw in him at the beginning.

Wow. And I had read somewhere that because of the Kevin Spacey article that it seems like maybe he had kind of blackball you among sort of other celebrities that would be looking for interviews. Is that the case?

Well, yeah, he had— he actually, he and his agency and perhaps his studio, and I— it's, you know, it's a long time ago now, so I can't remember that, but I mean, he definitely called for a boycott of me and of Esquire as far as doing other celebrity stories. So yeah, that's true.

So that must have been, as you say, it must have been a great burden upon your shoulders at that time. And that's, it's really powerful that I think Fred was able to detect that about you. I'd love to hear more just about that experience of you going to meet him for the first time. And it's a really great story, but I wonder if many of our listeners have ever had a chance to hear it.

Yeah, I mean, it was, you know, the story was assigned to me. I did not think of the story, I did not ask for the story, it was assigned to me. And, you know, I was interested from the start, I didn't resist it, but it was definitely not my idea because I didn't grow up with Fred. I was a little bit too old for Fred. And to me, Fred was the guy parodied by Eddie Murphy on Saturday Night Live, that's kind of who he was to me. And so, you know, I got his number from family communications, and I called him in New York City where he had an apartment. And, you know, he picked up the phone, and it was, you know, his— I might not have known Fred that well, but I did know his voice, you know, and because it was his voice was unmistakable, and he He picked up and I told him who I was, and he knew that there was going to be a call coming, so he wasn't surprised. But he asked where I was, and I said, "Well, I'm in Esquire's offices on 55th Street," and he was like, "Oh my, I'm on 56th. I'm right around the corner. Would you like to come over?" I mean, this is right off the bat. And I said, "Sure." And he goes, "Well, I have to warn you that I've been taking a nap, and so I'm in my robe and slippers, if you don't mind." And I was like, "Okay." So I was game, and I walked over there, and it really was just around the corner. And I walked in there, and then Fred answered the door as advertised in his blue bathrobe and his slippers. And, you know, the apartment was kind of dim, the blinds were drawn, and I went in there and then immediately he basically— we talked for a few minutes and then immediately he started, you know, doing the thing which he did, which was turning around all the questions that I had for him. And we had the whole, you know, old rabbit conversation. You know, he had— he asked me if, you know, I think I asked him about his childhood. And of course, so he asked me about my childhood and he asked me if there was anything from my childhood that I really, really loved and cherished. And when you think about that, you know, as a way of relating to people, you know, a stranger walks in to your home and this stranger is going to do a story on you and you want to somehow connect with that stranger. I mean, asking that stranger to name the thing that he loved as a child is a really, really powerful thing. And I don't think it was, you know, like a power move. I don't think it was pure deflection. I think it was It was connection, but it was just connection not on the level that I was expecting. So we had that conversation, and I said, "Well, I had this— I had a rabbit that I called Old Rabbit." And he was like, "Well, Tama, and I'll bet you knew him when he was a very young rabbit." So we had this conversation, and I mean, I get— I get emotional just thinking about it because he was just— he was so good at finding that in people. And I don't mean in just me, I mean in people. I mean, of peeling back your layers of defenses and finding this true sort of soul that sat at the bottom of it. And that was in some ways still a child. So I answered, we had that conversation, and then I'm sitting there and The phone rings and it's his wife, Joanne, and he puts me on. I've met him for, I don't know, all of 15 minutes, a half hour. And so I'm talking to Joanne and then all of a sudden I get blinded by this light and he's shot a flashbulb 'Picture me.' He was like, 'Oh, I always like to send pictures of my new friends to Joanne.' And so I was just, you know, I was completely, completely disoriented from the start. I mean, I knew, I had the instincts to know that he was, you know, that he was special. I didn't know at the time that the story could be made special, but I did know pretty much from the start that he was special. Because, you know, this, this wasn't my first rodeo. I've met a lot of people. I've, you know, I've done, you know, a fair amount of, you know, a fair number of profiles. And, you know, Fred came from— to say that he came from left field is to understate it. So he really had that ability to, to keep you off guard in the best way. And I think that "off guard" is the key phrase there. You know, we're people who have our guards up. He managed to get me and a lot of other people he met off guard.

And you know, I've read that many journalists, including yourself, have said that he wasn't the easiest person to interview just because he was so interested in the person he was speaking with. So as you said, while you're trying ask him questions, he'd turn it around and start asking you questions.

I don't know if he answered a single question of mine. And I saw him many, many times. I mean, I'm not including— I mean, I saw him 3 times as a journalist. I mean, I saw him in New York, and then I went down to see him in Pittsburgh, and then I went and saw him in Pittsburgh again on a trip where I accompanied him to Latrobe. But, you know, I saw him again shortly after that, after the story came out. So I'm in Pittsburgh, and, you know, I've talked to him, you know, until his death. And, you know, we corresponded. He answered questions. I mean, to say that he didn't answer questions is not getting it quite accurately. He answered a lot of questions. If you wanted to ask him about prayer and the nature of God and the promise of the scriptures, he would talk all day about that. But ask him about, you know, growing up, ask him about him, He was just a very skillful fencer. You know, when you watch two people with masks on and wearing white protective gear fence, you admire their skill at never being touched, and Fred was definitely that person.

Wow. Well, that's great to hear. I just love hearing stories about Fred, and I'm glad to hear these. Have you had a chance to see the new film yet that's coming out?

Yeah, I saw it in July. I saw it during the summer.

Oh, great. And was it everything we're hearing about it?

Yeah, I think it's a beautiful movie. I really do. And I have to say, I didn't know what to expect when I walked in there. I think that there was a part of me that was trying to keep my distance from it in a lot of ways. I mean, even the— I mean, the character is not named Tom Junod. He's named Lloyd Vogel. And I was pretty happy to let it stay that way. And then I see the movie and, you know, the truth of my relationship with Fred is all over that movie. And it moved me tremendously. I mean, I was— not expecting to cry in that movie, but I certainly did.

Well, that's certainly good to hear. I'm really looking forward to seeing it. And I was going to ask you, and you've really already answered it, I was going to ask how, kind of how loosely the character of Lloyd Vogel was based on you. It sounds like he's different, but he gets the heart of the relationship, and I'm glad to hear that. I think that's a special thing that they were able to pull off, hopefully.

Well, I think that you just said it accurately. It's different. Lloyd's different. I mean, he's much more resistant to Fred than I was. But they got at the real truth of it, which is that Fred had the ability to see something in people, and he saw something in me. And that was the thing that really, really hit me, seeing the movie. And it hits me all the time. It hits me on really, I think, these days, especially now that we're talking about Fred so much, it hits me on a daily basis, which is how lucky I was.

Well, in the profile that you wrote about Fred, there really are a lot of remarkable moments that you bring up, and yet there's one that I'm interested in that I think made it into the new film. I can only say that just based on trailers I've seen, but I'd love to hear a little bit more about it. And it seems there's a point where Fred is serenaded on a subway by some people, and I'd just love to hear that from you, sort of your account of how that happened. Again, I know we read it in the article, but it's a great story.

Well, you know, he was a man who traveled on the subway. I mean, that's, I think, really where that story begins. I mean, he's not a person who traveled around New York in a cocoon of privacy. He was kind of a public person that way, and he was open to everybody. And he was on the subway, and kids recognized him, and they began singing the familiar song because he was he was so familiar to people, you know. I mean, he was, he was their neighbor, you know. And, and so I think it, you know, I think it sounds, you know, extraordinary, but it makes, it really makes, you know, perfect sense. I mean, you know, when I was with him in Penn Station, I mean, I mean, people would just walk by, were like, hey, Mr. Rogers, you know. And there's even There's even a thing in the story where it's, "Hey, Mr. Effin' Rogers!" You know? And so he had that ability. I mean, in some ways it felt like you were with a friendly space alien, you know? But in another way, it was like you were with somebody you'd known all your life.

There's also one little detail that didn't make it into your story that I heard about later on that happened. After your first meeting with Fred, and you left a pen apparently at his apartment.

Yeah.

And I wonder if you could talk just a little bit about what is now really an artifact of that time together.

Well, it's that day when I visited Fred and talked about Old Rabbit and had the photo taken of me, and I'm talk to Joanne and all of that, in, in the, in that swirl of sort of pleasant confusion of that day, I left my pen behind. And when I went the next day to see Fred, because we were going to go to Penn Station and I was going to accompany him, I got there and on the kitchen table is a beige envelope. And on it, it says, "This is Tom's pen." And it says it in Fred's amazing handwriting. Everything that Fred wrote, he wrote I don't know if it's going to be the right word, but he wrote calligraphically. He write it— he wrote it like calligraphy. I don't think that he was capable of just writing scrawl. Um, and I think that, that, you know, just, just, just shows who he was. I mean, I literally— I mean, he literally, you know, transformed sort of everything that he did, even just writing a note on an envelope. And so it says, "This is Tom's pen," in this beautiful handwriting. And that is in my office right now, and I've never opened it, and I've never used that pen. I've always thought that if I was going to do that, if I was going to open that, I would use it for a special occasion. I'm writing a book.— right now I'm writing what's my first book, and I've always thought that, you know, like when I write "The End," you know, on the manuscript, I'd use that pen.

Wow. That's a terrific story. I think that would be one of my most prized possessions. And I just love— if I can, I'm going to try to get a snapshot of that from the website where I saw it to put on our webpage just so the listeners can see. You're right, his writing is impeccable. And that's a great story, and what a great memory to have of him and to be able to keep that with you. Since we're talking about writing, I wonder, did you learn anything about being a writer just from your relationship with Fred?

Yeah, I did. I did. I learned that goodness is as mysterious, um, and as worthy of a deep dive as evil. I mean, I've always been interested in evil and how, and how bad things happen. I've— it's, you know, it's something I've written about, you know, over and over again. You know, I've never been afraid to go dark as a journalist. But Fred taught me that invaluable lesson, which is that goodness deserves the same scrutiny as badness.

Yeah. Well, I'm so glad you mentioned that because, you know, it was very recently that A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood premiered, I believe, at the Toronto Film Festival. And that movie and one other movie, which I believe just came out today, Joker,— both met an incredible amount of acclaim, and there's been all kinds of talk about Academy Awards for each of those films. And I was just thinking about it today that that really says something interesting, maybe about our humanity, that here we have two of the most acclaimed films, seemingly, of the year, right now anyway, that people are talking about, and one is about one of the most evil villains that anyone's ever conceived of, and the other one is about one of the kindest people people who probably ever lived on this planet. And I'm just curious as to, because you have taken so many deep dives and you haven't been afraid to dive into that part, why do you think that is? Why do you think that is that we are people that seem to go to such extremes and seem to find, even in our entertainment, that we're so drawn to things like that?

Well, I mean, you know, I mean, I think that the spectrum of of human experience is so, so broad. I mean, you know, I mean, just look at, look at the existence of, of war, right? Um, you know, um, you know, I mean, multiple atrocities, um, occur in any given day of even wars that you've never heard of, things that would chill your soul and, and, you know, you know, make your blood run cold. And yet during— in, in war, there are acts of unforgettable heroism, unforgettable courage, unforgettable, um, love and, and charity. People sacrificing themselves for the greater good, for their fellow man, for their, you know, the person next to them in the trenches. And I mean, so, I mean, so, I mean, nothing portrays, um, or captures the kind of the duality of human nature better than that, and I think that the duality of human nature is written on just about everything that we do, including journalism for that matter. And so it makes sense that it shows up in our entertainment.

Yeah, certainly. Well, I was thinking of it today just as I was kind of reflecting on that a little bit, and also knowing that really, if you go through some of the old shows of Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood, he really didn't shy away from evil and the very hard things. I mean, some of his shows did directly go right at war and racism and things like that that we don't often associate with Fred Rogers, but he was very bold in those things. And it made me think of one of my very favorite quotes, and it was used a lot back when "Won't You Be My Neighbor" came out. But one of my very favorite Fred Rogers quotes is, "Love is at the root of everything—all learning, all parenting, all relationships. Love or the lack of it." And I really think that speaks volumes in all of these situations. And I just found it so interesting that seemingly this new movie about Joker, I think the approach they're going at is He's sort of a result of a lack of love, and Fred Rogers is sort of the result of someone who was loved and learned to love very well. I just find those two dualities fascinating. I appreciate you taking a moment to talk about that.

Well, you know, Fred genuinely believed that love was not just at the center of what we do. He genuinely believed that love was at the center of the universe, that it was you know, the primary building block, that it was the force that trumped all others. And, um, you know, I, I think that, you know, for like, for me, the jury is still out on that, but for him it wasn't. I mean, he— that, that was, that was his faith, and that was His faith, I think that his faith in that fact was, or in that idea, was stronger than his faith in just about anything else, including religious dogma. He was not a dogmatic person, but he had this unshakable belief in love. You know, it was one of those things that was humbling about him. And I guess the other thing that, you know, and I say it all the time, and, you know, anybody who's going to talk to me is probably going to hear this, but I mean, the thing that's, you know, to me, you know, so interesting about Fred is, you know, he You know, obviously was a soft-spoken man, and he obviously was a very nice man, and he was obviously a very kind man, but his strength and his conviction and his will, all of those things are very underrated in him.

You know, you mentioned religion a moment ago, and I think most people know, or if they don't, they're going to find out now, that Fred was an ordained minister., and that his television show was actually commissioned from his church, and he was considered an evangelist, which is fascinating to me. In some ways, he was like the first televangelist that we had. That's really great.

I love that. I love what you just said, that phrase.

That's great. And, you know, it really— and he's the best one we've ever had or ever will have, in my opinion. But, you know, he really did minister with his life. Everything I've read about him, every time I watch him, there really is some sort of, something transcendent about him. And you're right, I can sense the love shining through. And he ministered to so many people so well. And it's been fascinating to me as I've run this Twitter account that I just put up Mr. Rogers quotes every day, and we tend to gain about 1,000 followers every couple weeks. It's amazing, kind of just, just these quotes that people have, and I will get messages from people and they'll tell me how much that it means to them and how much they needed it. I've even had people at times say they were considering taking their life and that quote hit them at just the right time and they really needed to know that they were cared about. My question for you as we start to close out our conversation today, um, In what ways do you think Fred Rogers was a minister to you specifically as his friend?

Well, so I mean, a couple of things just to go, you know, you had said before that Fred was, you know, the most successful, you know, the first and most successful televangelist. And I think that he was the first and most successful televangelist because he never spoke of God on the air, but he lived God. And so I think that that's always what fascinated me about Fred was that he was obviously a godly man, but he exuded God. He exuded godly principles. So he, I mean, I think that Fred did have a, like if you look at his, if you look at his email correspondence with me, it was much more theologically oriented than anything that he said to me in person, and certainly anything that he said on his television show. But, um, so I mean, he did— he definitely had a, you know, a religious purpose. And I think that he really, like, he I mean, he led me, when I met him and did the story about him, he led me ultimately to a moment of prayer that forms the climax of the story, the end of the story. But that's not the most important thing that he did. The most important thing was not getting me to pray. The most important thing that Fred did was to trust me. When I really, really needed that. I really needed trust, and Fred offered that to me without me having to say so. He just knew it. He knew it in his heart of hearts. He knew it by looking at me, I guess, or experiencing time with me. And he gave that to me, and it was the great gift.

Well, thank you for sharing that, and I'm so glad that he invested in you in that way. You have really done some amazing writing over the years, and you continue to do so. And I was just rereading again today "The Terrible Boy," and what a haunting article that is. I mean, it made me almost go to tears a few times. You have such a gifting for writing, and I'm just so glad again for the way that you were able to meet Mr. Rogers and the way that he invested in you. And I'm sure it was mutual. I'm sure that you added a lot to his life as well. It's been wonderful getting to speak to you. You know, if Fred was here today, you would know this much better than I do because I never met him. I only know him by reputation. But I'm sure he would let you know how proud that he is of you. And I think that myself and all of us who are listening, we're proud of you as well.

Well, you know, there's another journalist, Tim Madigan, who had an experience similar to mine with Fred, and the name of his book is "I'm Proud of You." Yeah.

Yeah, I've had Tim on my other podcast before. I really enjoyed that book as well. And you're right, that's another wonderful book. But we are proud of you, and I just want to thank you for taking time to stop by for a visit here in the neighborhood. We are really looking forward to the new movie, and I hope we get a chance to do this again sometime.

I hope so too, and I hope you enjoy the movie.

Thank you for joining us here this week in the neighborhood. Music featured on the podcast was Nouvelle Noël by Kevin MacLeod, and all other music by Benjamin Tossett at bensound.com. Special thanks to my guest Tom Junod, and thanks to Sony Pictures for helping us set up this interview with Tom. And thank you to the @MrRogersSay community on Twitter. This podcast wouldn't be around without you. And I'm so grateful for the community that we have there together spreading kindness. I'm your host, Rick Lee James. My personal Twitter account is @RickLeeJames. My website is rickleejames.com. My other podcast is Voices in My Head, the Rick Lee James Podcast, and I look forward to being with you again next time. Until we meet again, remember, you make every day special. You know how? By just your being you. There's only one person in this whole world like you, and people can like you exactly as you are.