Culture Coaching with Nikki Lerner - Episode 381

Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James.

I'm a recording artist, a singer, a songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene.

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Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I'm your host Rick Lee James, and I want to thank you for being here for what is going to be another great conversation today. My guest today on Voices in My Head is once again Nikki Lerner. Nikki is an artist, a teacher, a speaker, an author, and a culture coach helping others engage with one another relationally across culture lines. Her passion is to see people come to an understanding of one another through music and conversation and learn to remain human with each other. Her new book, Worship Together: In Your Church as in Heaven, co-written with Josh Davis, is a practical and foundational resource resource for pastors and worship leaders of all kinds. It addresses an urgent need in the church today. As our communities become increasingly diverse, how can we offer worship that is authentic and engaging for all of God's people, including longtime church members? Nikki Lerner, welcome back to Voices in My Head.

Hey, Rick Lee James, so glad to be here as always, and a big hello to your awesome listeners.

Well, it's always a pleasure to have you. I think this is, I think this is the third time that we've had a conversation on this show. And the last time we saw each other, we were just catching up briefly beforehand off of the microphone, and I had had an arm surgery. And we were at Cedarville, actually. And you were there because it was Travis Cottrell, I think, who was at the conference that time, if memory serves. And we got to have a meal together. And I can't even believe you remembered that I had had an arm surgery or whatever. But it was—

Oh, of course.

It's been so long. But things are going well on my end with that healing up really good. So how are things with you right now?

Oh, things are full, Rick. They are full. God is good. He is providing. And, and every day is when I was telling a friend of mine, every day, he is showing me ways that I can trust what he has put inside of me. And that's a, that's a part of my spiritual journey, my spiritual health right now that I'm really enjoying.

Wow.

Yeah.

Well, well, you know, it's, it's interesting right now because we were talking just beforehand that things are going good for many of us in many ways, but due to COVID-19, things that we normally do, it seems like there are 3 extra steps to do them all the time right now.

Yes.

And I know you have been very busy with a lot of different things going on right now, partially because of really who you are and your voice in the multicultural worship community and the ministry that you have going on. And we are really at a moment in our nation, I think, where some new conversations are happening, not only maybe around worship, but around multicultural issues that are happening. And I think it's maybe an exciting time in some ways, although there's been a lot of really heartbreaking things have been happening, I think the excitement comes from it feels like people are beginning to have conversations they weren't willing to have before in many ways. Has that been your experience in this time?

Yeah, it definitely is. You know, I think as you were talking, one of the things that I was thinking about is I think what we've been experiencing is like this Ecclesiastes 3 type of moment, you know, where, where the writer says, you know, there's a there's a time for everything, right? And, you know, the writer of Ecclesiastes says things like, you know, there's a time to kill and a time to heal. There's a time to tear down and a time to build up. There's a time to cry and a time to laugh. And what I love about that scripture is that it talks about the and of life, how grief, sorrow, joy, and celebration tend to all exist in the same space more times than not, probably more times than we give it credit for. And so that's how I've been— that is the framework I've been seeing this through, because even in my work as a culture coach, I mean, you know, I'm a professional, this is what I do. I have had to sit in my own grief because of what is going on in the country, as well as celebrate what is going on in the country. Because I don't know about you, Rick Lee James, but, you know, I've never seen so many demonstrations that have been culturally diverse, that have been long and intense and clear. And I think that is actually really good. So we've all, all of us, had to sit in the grief as well as participate in the celebration and the joy as well.

Yeah, I think you're exactly right. It feels like a different moment than we've had before. And I know I personally have had more conversations with people that maybe for the first time, you know, I've been having an awakening. Over the last few years personally over, you know, a lot of things that have to do with multicultural relationships and things. But it's been interesting that I've had some conversations with people who weren't even aware or willing before to have conversations about, you know, ways that we can help and ways that the church should be involved in the way that it hasn't before. You know, before we get too far into it, you were just talking about all these ways that all these things work together, that we're living in all these moments at one time, whether it be great grief or great joy and things like that. And I was just struck yesterday, I was leading worship at my church, and I don't know how it's going at your church right now, but it seems like everybody's doing things a little bit differently. We have a parking lot service where we broadcast over an AM radio for our first service on Sunday morning, and people just show up in their cars where they can be very socially distanced. And then we do have an indoor service, but it's also very distanced. Everybody wears masks, you know, when they come in. And we're in Ohio, and so it's been a state mandate now where you, you can't gather without masks, you know. Everybody has to go in places, so it's different. And, and yesterday we were singing the song that I know you're familiar with, probably everybody listening is too, 10,000 Reasons, you know, bless the Lord. And it struck me yesterday just exactly what you were saying right now, because we just passed this, this very difficult milestone due to COVID where, you know, over 150,000 deaths. And, and I was thinking, you know, isn't it interesting? We're, we're talking in terms of thousands. We're talking about 10,000 reasons to bless the Lord and praise the Lord. We're talking about 150,000 families in grief. You know, right now that wouldn't have been in grief due to this, because this is a brand new, uh, you know, virus that's coming through. We didn't even have it before January. Uh, families didn't expect that. Um, and we're in that tension right now of these moments of things that we're, we're grieving. I mean, we're grieving things like George Floyd's death, we're grieving things like all these deaths, and we're in the church trying to say almost, but praise God anyway, in these moments. How do we get through without finding ways to bless the Lord? And so anyway, all that was to say, I think what you're saying is correct. We're finding ourselves in all these different places at one time, for sure. Um, you know, tell us a little bit, Nikki, before I end up talking over you the whole time, because you're the one we want to hear from today. Uh, you You also have a great podcast, and you've been having some really good conversations on that show. And the show is called Culture Coach, and listeners can watch it on YouTube and different places. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the work that you're doing through that podcast and some of those good conversations that you're having right now.

Yeah, absolutely. In my work, we've been talking about coaching for years when it comes to trying to navigate cross-culturally. And I think I was talking to a colleague of mine and we were saying, you know, I mean, as people, we have coaches for everything, right? Like, we've got wealth coaches or finance coaches, we've got fitness coaches, we've got business coaches, we've got Hopefully we've got ministry leadership coaches. You know, we go to people who know more than us daily, all the time, as well we should. And there's something about when it comes to navigating the waters of cross-cultural conversation that we think, you know, that when we came into the world through our mother's womb, that, you know, we were handed a manual. As soon as we showed up, you know. And that's, that's not the case. But I think we, we, most of us have been living life like that's the case. Like, we just should know, right? And that's probably part of the frustration, Rick, is like, people like, we just, we should just know because it's just human. And but it's not. And so, you know, we started to even dream about, you know, what would it be like if everybody knew that they had a culture coach? You know, what if, what if everybody knew that they had somebody from a different culture group of people that was totally not like them, that they could call and ask questions and learn about the world through a different set of eyes or perspective? Man, wouldn't that be awesome? Wouldn't it be awesome if we could actually have conversations about ethnicity, racial issues, gender issues, sexual orientation issues. Wouldn't it be awesome if we could just talk about those things, putting our foot in our mouth, um, and having a response that was loving and gracious? That is what the Culture Coach Podcast is about. All the things that we keep saying we can't talk about, we want to talk about. And we want to have these conversations, particularly as it relates to ethnicity, during the time when something negative isn't happening. You know, I mean, that's honestly, that's if you think about it, that's the practice that we have in the country. I mean, we only talk about these things after someone has been murdered. Or after somebody says something terrible, or after there's an abuse scandal, or at, you know, like we wait until the worst possible thing to happen and then we try to have logical, uh, generous, gracious conversations while everybody's hair is on fire, while everybody is in the middle of grieving. Um, that's when we try to talk, and I think That's why we're— part of why we're having such a hard time. So Culture Coach really exists to provide a place for other people to process and to learn without the threat of being called a name or being bullied online or anything like that. That's, that's why it exists.

That's really important too, isn't it? And oftentimes I think I think it's so hard to have discussions, maybe especially in the church. I don't think it should be that way, but how often have we had these conversations where you walk into a difficult topic and you're just asking a question and oftentimes you're met with anger and "We're not going to talk about that," or we push it under the rug. And oftentimes people are just honestly asking because they want to know more. I love the idea of us having a place to have these difficult conversations. If you can't have it in the church, you know, where can you have them? And often I think that answer is, well, outside the church. That's where people aren't afraid to talk about it. And it's—

Rick, can I just interject one second? Because you said something very important. Yeah. Some of the work that I've been doing, I would say in the last 2 months, I've probably facilitated more listening groups have all year, or the last 2 years, with different organizations, different churches, that sort of thing. And the reality is, is what we are hearing, particularly from people in the nation that are 20, in their 20s or 30 under, they're telling people that where they, where they are feeling like they are able to work out their salvation with fear and trembling is outside of the church. They feel way more comfortable at a protest than they do at a worship service. And we as Jesus followers and as the local institutionalized church, we cannot hide from this. I mean, you know, we love these articles about, you know, why are we losing young people to the church? And it's 'cause the music is bad, or You know, it's because this and that. It's not that. This is what it is. We're losing people because there are people in the church that cannot see how their faith connects to the reality of the things in the world. And when it comes to issues around culture and ethnicity, we have decided as the American church that there are some things that we will not speak about. And not only will we not speak about, but we want to silence people. It is actually one of the greatest hindrances to— and there are many— but one of the greatest hindrances to multicultural ministry, particularly when a church or an organization has been historically white American, because usually what'll happen is non- white American people that end up in churches that are primarily run by white American people, that they're usually told, "Don't bring that in here because we preach the Bible. We don't preach a social gospel." And if there's anybody listening, I just ask that you'd hear my heart on that, that what you're basically telling people is to not bring a part of who they are into the presence of Jesus and their community. And so I guarantee you that if you tell them they can't bring this piece, that there are other pieces they will refuse to bring you because it's not safe. So how are you supposed to deal with someone who's having a spiritual issue, or someone who's contemplating whether to start their journey with, with Christ when you're telling them you can only bring pieces of who you are here, don't bring that here. And so this is a very real issue that Jesus followers are finding more solace in their workplaces, at protests, in learning groups, than they are in the supposed safety of their own home local churches.

Thank you for pointing that out, because, you know, I think of that, that old hymn, "I Surrender All," you know, that when there's an altar call, you know, it's come and surrender all to Jesus. And you're raising a very, very important question of, you know, how do we surrender all when we aren't allowed to bring our all, you know, uh, to Jesus? How do we surrender all these things to the Lordship of Jesus when the church has said, you can't bring that part of you in here and don't talk about this. And thank you for sharing that, because I think that's a powerful thing that we need to spend some time thinking about and talking about. You know, and sometimes I think especially in white churches, speaking as one who is a part of a predominantly white church, that it just— I feel like, are we ever going to be able to break out of this? You know, at times It's so much easier at times, I think, for us to feel shame about something and to do the hard work of actually bringing change about. And, you know, we're— and maybe that speaks to our place of privilege, that, well, it's easier for us to just go, well, I feel bad about that, moving on, um, than it is to actually create a community, uh, and even a worshiping community that has found ways to tear down walls and invite people to bring all of themselves in. To Jesus. So what I'd love to ask you, if you don't mind, you just said that you've been setting up a lot of these— I think you called them listening groups— of what you've been doing. Would you mind just giving us an example of maybe how these go? Like, you don't have to give us maybe exact conversations or anything, because we wouldn't want, you know, to reveal anything that, that should be private or talked about. But give us a scenario of how these take place and how you set these up, maybe what kinds of things that you are hearing in some of these conversations and in these listening groups.

Sure, so usually when I go out and coach or teach or I'm working with an organization, I teach from a set of 6 core competencies. One of those competencies is called I Hear You, and it is a forum that I facilitate that where people can share stories of race, stories of hurt or joy when it comes to their ethnic identity in the world. That includes white Americans, by the way. And so what I've been doing, unfortunately, some of this has been highly reactive. 'Cause as you said, you know, there are many of us who do this work that are trying to say, let's talk about this all the time, everybody, so that we don't have to do what we're doing now, which is playing catch-up.

Right.

And being reactive. So recently, I would say in the last 4 months, I've been doing listening groups that have been reactive where a mostly white American organization, business, or faith community has said, we need to make sure we're hearing from minority communities in our church, um, to hear how they are, um, to hear what they're experiencing, and, and to ex— then to really figure out what is their experience like in our organization or in our church. And so that's what I've been doing. And so that really is the question that the How this goes is the leaders, several leaders are in the room. They are not permitted to speak unless they have a question or they can make a statement that is affirmative. And I give them those questions and statements.

Okay.

Usually there's only 3 that are appropriate. But, you know, because what we don't want to hear in a listening meeting is somebody says something that offends a leader. And then the leader goes after that person verbally. That's not a listening group. So I equip leaders with tools on what to do, particularly if they feel offended or if someone says something that makes them feel offended. Like, you have to give people tools around that. The few that I have, I have led have been around the experience of being Black American as well as African in churches, because those are two very different cultures. Just for your listeners to know, they like, like lump people in together, like everybody who you see is Black has the same experience, and that's not true.

Sure.

So that, and then also able to connect with a younger group of people which was diverse. And usually what I'll hear from particularly any minority in a church is that they feel underrepresented, or if they serve in a ministry that they feel like the only one and that that is a large burden to bear. I also hear that they people generally do not feel like their, their cultural expression of worship is okay. And then lastly, pretty consistent thing I hear is microaggressions that happen on the body level, particularly of a church or of an organization. Those things are pretty consistent no matter what organization I work with.

Hmm, very interesting. Yeah, you know, it's fascinating to hear that, and I love that you're doing this work, and I hope that everybody, every church can start these kind of listening conversations. I recently heard somebody say, and I believe it was Rabbi David Wolpe, I think is his name, I've just started reading one of his books and, and he's been fantastic. And one thing that he has said is, when you explain away a person's suffering, you're always wrong. Yes. And I think what I'm hearing from you, if I'm not mishearing you today, some of what these groups are doing are giving a safe place for people to express ways that they are experiencing suffering. And too often they are met when they're trying to express those things, by people explaining it away and telling them why they're not suffering and why it doesn't hurt.

Yes.

Am I hearing you correctly?

You are.

And that is a very normal response of what people hear. And I think, I think if the American— if American Jesus followers could see our existence in our own country like we would if we went on a missions trip together, I believe that we would have a different experience.

Wow.

I mean, can you imagine, you know, I mean, I'm making this up, but, you know, let's say you and I are part of the same church and we're focused on missions, right? And we're gonna go serve a community of people in Chile. Okay. And so some of our pre-work, or when we get there, we ask people to start sharing their stories. And when they share their stories of hardship and hurt and grief and pain, we ask them to back it up with data. Or we ask them, well, what did your grandfather do to make sure that you all were in poverty? Or why don't you all just pull yourself up by your bootstraps? That is the experience that we're having in this country. I mean, in fact, I'm just keeping it real with you today, Rick. You know, in fact, I know for me, one of the things I've been grieving over is that I oftentimes see more empathy more compassion, more action from people that would not claim to know our beautiful Savior than I do from people who would call Jesus, uh, their model, uh, of character and transformation. And that's disturbing, you know. In, in Revelation, it talks about when the, you know, when the believers overcome It says that they overcame by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. We are losing collectively as the American church the word of our testimony, in my opinion, because we are scared. Many of us do not want to find the courage that it will take to move into something new. Everybody is afraid of loss. Cultural loss and cultural death. We have settled for preference and comfort in our churches. This is why we have worship wars. Yeah, because, because that war is about preference. It's not about Jesus. It's about preference and comfort, and we have settled for division. And so, you know, the reality is we have lost our credibility. The Church of Jesus Christ has lost their credibility when it comes to speaking into an issue that they actually have the answer for. You know, CNN is not calling the church. Fox News is not calling the church. They're not calling the church to say, "How do we fix this?" Because we are more segregated in communities of faith than an unbelieving world. So that is an interesting place. Or the local church to be.

I hear you. And you know what, the— you're right. And in this nation, I mean, we're, we're just sadly at that point, and we have to confess that. I mean, we, we are not a people with a voice that anybody cares to hear about. It's, it's not even, um, there's— and, and not that I think the church ever should necessarily strive to be relevant, because I don't think that's the point of our calling and our discipleship. Our calling is to be faithful disciples of Jesus. And but, but I think at many times right now we are just completely irrelevant to the conversation in every way because we have been more discipled, at least in this country, I think, by CNN and by Fox News than by— than we have by Jesus, in spite of what we might say in our churches, unfortunately. And that's a, that's a hard truth. And yet if we don't, I think, confess that in some ways, we can't heal from it, move on from it, you know. And it's a sad fact. I feel it too. It hurts to say that and to think like, well, just that the world is looking at us and thinking they're just so silly. They're not saying, look how they love each other. They're saying, look look at how mean they are and how they don't care. And, you know, how they're explaining away our pain and our suffering and what we're doing. And, um, in, in many ways, it feels almost like maybe Job's friends who sit with him for a while, but then they, but then they start explaining, well, Job, you must have done something wrong in order to have this suffering.

Uh, you know, think about this. There are, there are so many pictures of this very thing. But I read somewhere, somebody made the, the, the—

in—

or shared the insight that so many of us, we never see ourselves as the oppressors in Scripture. We always see ourselves as the oppressed.

Yeah.

And that's part of the problem. I mean, You know, it makes me think about the time, you know, when Jesus healed the man who was blind, right? It doesn't say that the Pharisees showed up and asked the man if he was okay. Like, they showed up, were angry that Jesus had even healed this man in the first place, and they were like, hey, so who sinned? This man or his family? They're looking for data. They're looking for details. And I mean, I tried to explain it like this, because a lot of people just, you know, they don't always understand when we're talking about culture, that so many cultures, non-white cultures in America— this is a generalization, by the way, warning, warning, sweeping generalization— that many non-white cultures in America are highly collective. A lot of white Americans are more individualistic. Because they've been able to be. So, you know, when something happens, specifically to a people group, here in the country, we feel it. You know, I didn't know George Floyd. I know him at all. I don't, you know, not no connection whatsoever.

Sure.

However, when I see what happened with him, I feel it as a brown person. In America, although I still see myself very much as an individual, right? So, but I still feel like it's like an aftershock. Yeah, right, of what happened. And, and it's hard for people who are more individualistic to understand that. So for instance, um, and like I said, I'm keeping it real with you today, brother. Um, so if you think of— think about this for a minute. Think about, uh, all of, or many of the mass shootings that have happened in America. Name me 5 non-white people who have been mass shooters.

Hmm.

You can't, right? Most mass shooters are white males.

Yeah.

Now here's what doesn't happen to white males, you know. Well, Rick Lee James, I'm sorry, we can't get together for lunch today because you might shoot me up and you might shoot up the whole cafe. Or when you get pulled over by a police officer, they don't make an assumption that you have a rifle or an AK-47 in the back and you're literally going to take out the whole squad. Yeah, right, right. But, but that same benefit of the doubt is not given to other cultures, uh, and particularly Black men here in our country. There's always a perceived threat So think about what that does to the psyche of a people group who have to keep— and, and think about this, I mean, think about your brothers and sisters who are non-white and part of the Black American people group, um, think about what this does to their psyche. And every time something like this happens, and it's gonna happen again, um, that they have to work really hard to remember who Christ has made them. So then they go to church and they hear, "Don't bring this here." They go watch the news and they're like, "Don't bring this here." And then they see their friend on Facebook who's explaining away things. And people have to really understand it would— what has been happening in the way that we've had these conversations around these events. It's almost like if someone in your family passed away, Rick, and I came to the funeral And I looked at you and I said, "Mm, your Aunt Judy, huh? Oh, she passed away. Oh gosh. Well, did she smoke?" Hmm. Well, no, she didn't smoke. Okay. Well, you know, she was technically obese, right? So what did you expect? You know, well, what about when she was 17? Didn't she have an abortion when she was 17? 'Well then, ah, I'm sorry, Rick, we're gonna leave now.' And I don't know where we picked that up from. That is not the model of Jesus that I read in the scriptures, but that is the model that we have adopted. Not all of us, for many of us, but, but even a small minority of us that, that are approaching these conversations that way, they are the loudest voices. Yeah, so, um, that is tough, um, to reconcile when I read in Ephesians chapter 4, verse 3, that says, make every effort to keep yourselves united in the Spirit, binding yourselves together with peace. Instead, it seems like we are making every effort to keep ourselves divided, binding ourselves together with media.

Yeah, yeah. You're exactly right. This is so good, Nikki. We need to hear it. We need to hear it.

But hopefully you hear my heart on it.

Yeah, no, I think this is, you know, it's the hard truths that we need to hear. And again, we can't heal from it and do better and sort of tear down these walls that need to be torn down if we don't acknowledge what's going on. And I think you're exactly right. You know, I was just thinking somebody said the other day, only in America would we have TikTok banned before we have assault rifles banned. You know, um, you know, it's, it's— we're, we're such a, uh, we always focus so much on their own problems, I think. And, um, and you, you correct me if I'm wrong, I, I feel like what is almost more dangerous, um, I, I feel like The most dangerous thing right now is it's not like people that are in white robes with hoods on being the Klan and burning crosses. Like, those guys, the few who actually do that, who are just blatant, you know, all-out racists, like, I don't know them. I don't see them necessarily. I mean, I know they're there, and we see them maybe more now than we once did, But it seems like to me what is really dangerous are those of us who don't realize the racist things that we carry inside of us and the things that we have ignored or that we just want to brush over. And we are doing exactly what you're saying, kind of moving on or blaming something else, or, you know, it's the implicit biases we have that we don't even want to acknowledge, and we'll just go well, that's not me, that doesn't apply to me. And the fact is, I'm finding so much more and more, it's sort of like my heart with God. I'm finding out more and all the time how sinful I really am and how much forgiveness I really need, you know.

Yeah, well, check it. I mean, we can't— this is just a personal belief of mine— we cannot be closed off to things such as biases and you know, unintentional racist thoughts or sexist thoughts or whatever it is, be closed to that and then open our entire life up to Jesus for transformation. I'm not that good. I don't know about you, but I'm not that good to be like, oh Jesus, you can have my entire life, like all of it. Like you said, I surrender all, God, I surrender all, surrender all. Wait a minute, no, no, no, no, no, no, not, not that stuff in the corner. You're like, yeah, I got that, right? Like, I got that. But here's, here's the thing. I mean, you talk about shame, and this is actually the, uh, this week on the podcast I'm talking to a friend of mine about this, about shame. Yeah, like, we— I know people are trying to shame, but we don't have to feel shame about a truth that is being revealed, right? Because the reality is, is that we are human beings. And we all have biases. I mean, all of us. Yeah, I mean, pick your category, right? We all have biases. And if we can start to receive what we hear as information so that we can make a change, I think it goes better for us. Because if it's connected to, 'Why don't know what you're talking about, I don't have any biases at all,' A, you're lying, because if If you don't, that means you're not a human being. We all have it. It's impossible to escape, no matter what your culture group, people come from, whatever it is. We all have it, right? We all have some type of privilege.

Yeah.

All, you know, I have privilege as an English-speaking American, right? Like, I don't have to learn Spanish or Korean. I could live the rest of my life and be fine. That's my privilege as an English-speaking American, right? Like, we all have it. So just, we all just need to be very open to just receiving these things as information and then asking the question, Lord, what would you have me do with this? The longer we play defense with some of these things, and I'm not talking stuff that, talking about stuff that people try to put on you, you know, I mean, like, Rick, if somebody rolled up to you and called you a racist, I would be one of the first people to be like, uh-uh, nope, no, no, you don't know, you don't know Rick Lee James. No, like, no, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, but, but it's really okay if you found out and I found out that there was a bias we had about a people group. Sure, that's okay to find out that information and then say, Lord, how would you have me change?

Right.

And, and I think what you're talking about too, you know, we've, we've maybe for too long misunderstood the word repentance too, to steer it around to a faith part of our conversation, because we've often thought, well, that's just me being sorry. So we say a quick confession, well, I'm sorry, Lord, I'm ashamed of my sin, um, thanks for the forgiveness, moving on back to my life. Um, and what the real meaning of that word repentance is, it's— it really means to turn around and to completely go another direction, to follow Jesus in a new way, to live life in a new way. When your eyes are opened and you see that what you've been doing is wrong, it's about this change of direction and a change of life. And it's so much easier to just say the prayer. It's a whole lot harder to actually be transformed and make this change in your life. And I think a lot of what we need in this moment is maybe to recapture some of that meaning of that word repentance that has been so lost, you know, that we can find new ways when it is revealed to us things that we have done that are hurting others. It's not right if we know about it now and then we continue down that path. That's what we would call sin, you know, to continue doing things that would harm other people just because it's easier for us. And, you know, I think we're seeing that right now. Yesterday, just in my devotions before church, and I shared it with the people who were helping us lead music yesterday, I was thinking about the amount of servanthood that Paul has in Romans when he talks about, you know, if I could be lost so that my Jewish brothers and sisters and my family could be found in Christ, you know, basically he's saying I would be lost if it meant they could be found. And I thought, I thought, what an amazing testament to a person's discipleship.

Yes.

To, to the Jesus lordship in their life, that he went from this person who literally was persecuting, uh, the way.

Yeah.

To a person that would— I would give up my very salvation if it meant to bring others into it. And, and I thought, right now we're just at a place where even just loving our brothers and sisters enough just to do a simple thing like wearing a mask, well, that's too much. Yeah, you know, something like that. You're impinging on my rights and I won't have it. Um, that tells me there's a disconnect in our, in our discipleship, you know, and, and what it means to follow Jesus. We're not, we're not getting it somewhere along the way.

Yeah. And, and, and also, you know, there— some of us in the country are fighting for our right to wear a mask, and some of us in the country are fighting for our right just to stay alive while we take a walk in the park. Yeah, so at some level, we probably understand one another more than ever if we would just look at it for what it is. But also, you know, the idea that, you know, brothers and sisters who are part of the Black American population in particular— but I will also say just people of color because you can't always tell where someone is from. There is a real problem and there always has been of us, most of us just trying to exist. And I think what people need to understand also is that nobody is asking, you know, for people not to be arrested or if there's a crime being done, like that's just existing in the world, right?

Sure.

But please, if someone has been subdued— and I'm not, I'm not a police officer, let me just make that clear, but I do, I come from a law enforcement family— but if someone is subdued and you have them and they're ready to be off to jail, can we just not kill them? That, that's literally like, we're talking about a whole lot of stuff, a lot of stuff right now, and that is the core of the conversation is, can we just be sure that people make it to jail? I mean, does that seem like a request that is not good enough? I mean, I think that's the thing. It's not about people's protests are usually not about hating law enforcement or hating officers or, you know, like I said, I come from a family of law enforcement. Displacement. I, I love people. I love people who are officers. Like, it's not about that. It's about the, the system of having one type of person from a people group shoot up a church full of people and be taken out to eat before he goes to jail, and then people that come from another people group having knees on their neck.

Yeah.

Wow. I know it's a lot.

It's, it's a lot. It really is.

We're gonna make it though, man.

We're gonna make it. We are. Nikki, I am so grateful for you and your voice to the church right now. And I think, I think you're, you're in a place that God has set you up because we're needing to hear more from people like you. And you have such a really powerful and, and gracious way of speaking about some of these really, really difficult topics. And, um, I just want to say how much I have appreciated you, not just in this moment but over the years. You've just been such a Christ-like example in so many ways to me and so many of us. We've barely scratched the surface of a lot of different subjects. We haven't really even talked about your book that much, but I want to let our listeners know that that I'm putting a link on the podcast page to your book, Worship Together in Your Church as in Heaven, because I want people to be able to check that out and those resources. And in just the last couple minutes that we have here together today, tell people where they can find out more about you and the good work that you're doing.

Yeah, so the best place to find me is nickilearner.com. Nikkilermer.com, and you can connect with just about everything I'm doing. And also, if you just wanted to get more of these kinds of conversations, as Rick mentioned, the Culture Coach podcast is a great space for that, and you can hear how we have these conversations. We're trying to model, trying to model some things. So those would be the first two. I'm also available for coaching and training. That's a bulk of my, of my work there. So yeah, whatever I can do to assist you and make you more into the vision that God has for you, that's where you can find me.

Well, thank you so much for spending some time with us today, and I hope that we'll just continue having more and more conversations like these. Your, your work is not easy work, but you, you truly are in every sense of the word, doing the Lord's work. And I so appreciate it from you. And there's so much we haven't talked about. I hope everybody will go to your website and listen to your music, find your books. I mean, just there's so many facets of what you do that we always run out of time before we know.

I know.

Um, yeah, next.

But yeah, but, but as always, yeah, I, I just so appreciate you and I want you to know how much I appreciate you, and, and the— God is using you for sure. So, well, we're gonna— oh, sorry, didn't mean to cut you off.

You were all right.

I was just saying thank you.

Oh, sure thing. Well, as I say to my guests each week, I'm gonna say it to you again, I think on your third time here on the show. Nikki Lerner, thank you for being one of the Voices in My Head this week.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at RickLeeJames.com, where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, follow my blog, and even schedule me for a concert or a speaking engagement.

Better yet, even a book signing in your neighborhood.

You can find all that and more at RickLeeJames.com. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews The more views that we receive, the more visible this podcast will be online. And now for the benediction: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. God bless you, and thank you for listening to Voices in My Head. Have you ever thought to yourself, man, I'd like to host my own podcast? Well, guess what? You can go to podbean.com/voices and get everything you need to create, manage, and promote your podcast. I use Podbean every week for Voices in My Head. There's easy uploading and publishing tools, stunning templates, custom domains, social and promotional tools, an embeddable podcast player, monetization tools, and more. It is your all-in-one podcasting solution. With Podbean, you can create professional podcasts in minutes without any programming knowledge. Best of all, everything is mobile ready right from the start. So go to podbean.com podbean.com/voices. And when you sign up, use the code "voices" and you'll get a sizable discount. Podbean, for your home podcasting. Thank you for listening to Voices in My Head.