Does Christian Music Need A Reformation? - Guest Dave Trout of UTR Media - Voices In My Head Podcast

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Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer-songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is your source for discussions on music, literature, movies, pop culture, theology, and more. Now sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of the Voices in My Head podcast. And don't forget to let the voices in your head be heard by following me on Twitter @RickLeeJames and sharing your thoughts about today's show.

If anyone is qualified to speak intelligently about Christian music, it's today's guest. Dave Trout has been in Christian radio in some form or fashion for just over 23 years, including work at WETN-FM and Wheaton Illinois, WCFL-FM in Morris, Illinois, Moody Radio, and Reframe Media. He started the Under the Radar radio show in 2008 while working at Reframe, and in 2014 that show became its own independent nonprofit ministry under Dave's oversight. And in 2017, the organization underwent a creative relaunch and now produces a wider variety of media projects under the new name UTR Media. Besides well-crafted music, Dave loves pizza, watching Netflix and Hulu, Apple products, fishing, the Cubs, and driving 5 miles per hour over the speed limit. He lives in Oak Lawn, Illinois with his wife and 5 children. Dave Trout, welcome to Voices in My Head.

Ah, it's great to be here, Rick. Thanks for having me on.

Well, I am so glad to have you back again, and I am such a big fan of what you are doing. And I should just tell all the listeners, and I'm gonna tell you right now, you are a hero to so many of us who are independent artists and who are working and desperately trying to make art. And you have been such a champion for so many of us, dare I say even hundreds of artists over the years. And it is such a privilege to be able to have you on the show and talk about the new and great things that UTR Media is doing. So what an honor for me. Thank you for being here.

Wow, man, thanks so much. Yeah, that, that puts some wind in the sails. I really, really appreciate that a lot. It's, it's fun to just to get to hang out and talk about music. And, and yeah, let's, let's, let's see where this goes.

Yeah, certainly. Well, right at the top of the show here, I want to refer everyone to utrmedia.org because that is the new home for what used to be Under the Radar. Under the Radar was that great radio show that Dave ran for many years, and it showcased artists. And it was really, as I said before, it was a way that Dave really championed artists that people maybe had not heard of before and gave them more exposure than they had been able to get. And UTR Media is now the new name for Under the Radar. And when you go to utrmedia.org, you'll see first of all an About, so you can click on and find a little bit more about UTR Media. But then they have podcasts and they have 5 different podcasts. They have videos, they have news, and there's some contact information on there if you're interested in UTR Media. And I love it. I spent this morning while I was working out, I actually had time to listen through just again to refresh my memory on some of the new shows. I listened to 4 of the shows total.

Cool.

And I loved them. So I wanna run down real quick the podcasts that you have there. As of now, and it seems like it's continuing to grow. But you have The Green Room Door, The Good Patron, which by the way, what an awesome idea. It's a podcast designed to help support independent artists and to help fans know how they can do that. There's The Gourmet Music Podcast, which is actually much closer to what The Under the Radar Show used to be.

Yeah.

Then there's Release Date, which is a very cool one right now because Release Date is is talking about your making of this Rich Mullins tribute album, and it's fascinating to hear. And then there's Side Note, which is a new one, which I don't think is actually out yet, but it's coming. Is that correct?

Right, yeah, the first couple episodes are actually in production right now. So, um, so I think that's coming out, uh, I'm guessing the first half of next month. So We'll see how it all develops. But you're familiar— I don't know if you've had him on your show, but you're familiar with Nick Flora.

Oh, yes.

And Nick is actually going to be producing and hosting that new show, Side Notes.

That's fantastic. Yeah, Nick has been on the show several times.

Oh, good.

Good friend, and I'm so glad to hear that because Nick is a great podcast host himself.

Yeah.

And he's doing some great music. I think he's doing some great shows and he's just an all-around good guy. So I'm so glad to hear that.

Um, yeah, totally.

Well, I really loved— one thing that I really have, have come to appreciate about you, and I think, um, it's not just the way that you support artists, but in many ways I think that you have found yourself almost in a position that artists are in because you are making an album right now and you've been in the process of, uh, I mean, in the past you've made albums that were released through Noisetrade, and they've done pretty well with downloads. But this was something new because this was about Rich Mullins. And it's not you yourself recording it, but it's actually you getting a lot of different artists together, and you're on a shoestring budget, but you're really good at that kind of thing. And I love to hear on your podcast release date just about the behind the scenes and what it's taking for you to create this new album, which is a tribute to Rich Mullins, which many of us love Rich Mullins so much. But I think it's— and maybe you would testify to this— it's probably giving you a unique perspective in that you're almost in the seat of what many of us artists are who go through the recording process and trying to figure out how to make ends meet and how to make, you know, how do we best market this and how do we pay people that we need to pay and how do we get the studio space and things like that. Would you say that you've kind of found yourself in a new appreciation for the artist in that side of things?

Oh yeah, for sure. I think that— I mean, I definitely have always had a really deep respect and appreciation for, for what artists endure and go through and persevere. And there's, there's, there's a lot of reasons for, um, especially an independent artist to throw in the towel at almost every turn. Um, there's just a lot of discouragement that has to be overcome and, and, and a lot of disappointment. And, um, and so, you know, I, I face that, I face that dilemma though, and those feelings now almost every day. Yeah, not, not, not not even necessarily just because of the Rich Mullins project that we're working on, but, you know, I myself am running an independent nonprofit organization that's very much, you know, on a shoestring budget and very much scratching and clawing and trying to make a way for it to move on. So I, over the last couple of years, have really worn the plight of the independent artist on my heart. And so my respect has only grown over the last few years. Wow.

Well, and it really is a wonderful thing to sit and listen to some of these new shows. I loved it when it was just under the radar, but now I'm finding I don't have enough time to listen to everything I want to hear because there's so many good podcasts that UTR is putting out. And yet I travel a lot, so it gives me a chance to listen when I can. And I would say release date, after listening to that, I would put that on par with some of the great NPR-type radio shows, honestly. The production quality is that good. Your storytelling is wonderful, and the way that you're kind of linking the, you know, the whole starting of— it's almost like listening to an episode of Behind the Music or something like that.

Wow. Yeah.

So I really enjoy that one, and I just, I can't wait for the next episode. Episodes to come out.

That's really kind of you. That's exactly the vibe we're going for. We wanted it to have kind of a more NPR-type vibe. And I've never done a podcast like that before. So it's definitely kind of a new thing for me, which is exciting. It also means it's really the hardest thing I'm working on right now. And we actually, we kind of falsely released an episode last week, so it's coming out anytime now. It turns out, I think literally the day we tried to release the episode, it turns out like our, you know, SSL certification on our website expired or something like that. And so, and so, and so it wouldn't upload to feed burner and iTunes and Stitcher and all the places it needs to go. And then our web guy has been on a business trip the last few days. So we're trying to get that fixed. And then I'm excited for you to hear this new episode of Release Date. So hopefully by the time listeners are actually listening to this conversation, that will be out.

That would be awesome. That's great. Thanks, man. Yeah, you're doing a wonderful job, and I'm so glad to not only talk about UTR Media today, but you find yourself in a unique position to talk about Christian music from the side of radio. And I think not only just because you have so much experience in it, but you have developed so many relationships with so many wonderful artists through the years, and people who are genuinely creative, and people who are struggling not only with how am I going to get the, the money to get this next album made, how do I get it promoted, but how do I actually be artistic while I'm doing that? How do I create something that's different and try to make it stand out in a way from what maybe is on the radio right now? And you had a really great idea when we were getting ready for this show, and I'm releasing this podcast on Tuesday, October 31st, at your idea by— by telling—

Halloween!

Yeah, well, Halloween! But it's also more importantly for us maybe as evangelicals, it's the 500th anniversary of the start of the Protestant Reformation. And yeah, I mean, I knew it was coming, but then it didn't hit me that it was the 500th one. And you came up with this great idea of a discussion, does Christian music need a reformation? And you gave a few talking points, and I've added a few of my own. And I really enjoyed just thinking through some of these things that you had sent. Some of these ideas. So I think what we'll do is we'll just begin talking with some of your talking points, and you can share some of your thoughts and ideas, and I'll share some of mine. So we sort of have the perspective of you coming almost from the radio side of things and from the podcasting side of things, playing artists' music. And I'll be coming at it really more from the artist standpoint, even though I also do podcasts and try to get some music of other people's out there too. But I think we may be able to have a good conversation about this idea about A reformation and if it is needed in Christian music.

So yeah, yeah, that sounds good.

So the first question that you actually sent this way, it was sort of a bullet point, I made it into a question. Christian radio, is it a good thing? And I wanted to, before we got too deep into that, let's ask this question: is radio itself even a good thing anymore? Like, is it relevant anymore? What are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, I mean, if you believe the studies that are out there, radio is actually the most relevant form of medium to reach people. At least according to the studies, they would say that not everybody owns a television, not everybody owns a smartphone, not every, you know,, but 90% of— I'm not sure if it's the entire world or if it's just 90% of Americans— have access to a radio.

Hmm.

Doesn't necessarily mean they're all listening to it every day, but more people have access to that medium than any other medium that's out there. So, I mean, so for starters, Yes, there's some relevancy to it because it's a great opportunity for communicating to masses of people. So that, and radio in general, you know, definitely is considered old media. You know, so newspapers, television, radio, these things, magazines, those are old media. And yes, Most people know that these old media are dying. They are shrinking in their reach. A lot of local newspapers have folded. A lot of magazines have gone to online-only distribution. A lot of radio stations, independent radio stations, have gotten sold to big conglomerates. A lot of changes have happened that show signs that these old forms of media are dying. So their relevancy going into the future is definitely something that's questionable.

And it's interesting to me to think about the way that even radio itself has changed. Because often we still have the radio stations, but it seems like through things like iHeartRadio and other media like that, we're actually hearing radio on smart devices. Devices, and oftentimes we're tuning into stations even at times where we aren't even living in the same state or even anywhere where we could get it if we just had a car radio or something like that. So it'll be interesting to watch and see how that happens exactly. But we do know that Christian radio is still pretty big in many ways. I think of like K-LOVE and other stations that are similar to that, and I'd have to go to different parts of the country to know which the big ones are. But that would be the question where maybe we should get into the idea of sort of who's being played on the radio. And we could almost use radio as a metaphor for many things, like, because the ones that we hear on the radio are generally the ones we also see on the TV. If we have like a station that plays videos, they're the ones that we would see if you walked into a bookstore, or, you know, like even something like Walmart. At times you might see their CDs. Those seems to— even though the CD section is shrinking rapidly too, and in some places almost non-existent, those are sort of the big artists, you know. If they've made it on that level, they've made it. And there are very few that ever make it to that level, but there are so many who are making great art. And many would argue that those who have made it to that huge level are not necessarily the very best ones in the industry that we have. That there may be other artists who are actually doing some other things that people would really dig if they could actually find a way to hear it. So the definition of reform— I looked this up so we would know it to have this Reformation conversation. To reform something is to improve or amend something that is wrong, corrupt, or unsatisfactory. Okay. So of those three words—wrong, corrupt, or unsatisfactory—would we find any of those words applying to Christian radio in our opinion?

Yes. I'll tell you what, I have a— I probably have a hard time calling it wrong because I do know that Christian radio, and specifically You know, I mean, I do have thoughts about Christian talk radio and whether that's, you know, conversational or preaching programming. For the sake of this conversation, I'm really, really just focusing on Christian music radio, and I think that I have a hard time calling it wrong, even though some people would say it's wrong for them personally. It's a wrong fit. Maybe that's a little bit more of the unsatisfactory route. But I would not be afraid to say the word corrupt does seem to come to mind when I think of the kind of the state of Christian radio right now. Um, uh, in fact, I was not long ago, in fact this week, listening to, um, a major fundraising drive on Christian radio, and I was so disappointed and discouraged about, um, just, just how they went about it. Um, it seemed just seemed, I don't know, just a little bit inauthentic and almost like kind of using a lot of spiritual language to almost manipulate people into giving toward their organization. I'm just not a fan of that. Sure. But I think the biggest kind of form of corruption, which— boy, I hate to start on such a heavy note, but why not? Let's dig, let's dive in. One of the things that is a very, very discouraging trend in Christian radio, and I think a lot of people commiserate with this, is the narrowing and narrowing of the format, and the narrowing and narrowing of the number of artists that they play, and even the narrowing of the number of songs that get featured. It's become a very, very, very small sandbox which very few people are invited into. And I've been you know, kind of following that trend and trying to learn about it. And one of the things that's really disheartening is that the vast majority— and I mean probably over 80%, maybe even— yeah, I would say over 80, maybe even over 85% of Christian music radio out there is nonprofits. That rings my bell because I run a boutique nonprofit, right? So I love the world of nonprofits. However, for some reason, most of these radio stations, with very, very few exceptions, are almost, almost, you know, handcuff themselves to the trends of whatever the record labels want to disseminate. Sure. Even though as nonprofits, the only people they're really accountable to is their own board of trustees and their donor base. Literally, Christian radio could be the most vibrant and diverse landscape around because they are not shackled to those rules. They can be free to try new things, to play new artists, to create a very diverse landscape. And being a nonprofit gives them that freedom because they don't have to only feature those that would bring commercial success. Yes, because of a lot of, you know, unsavory reasons, including just following, you know, some sort of weird testing that goes on with music, and often just kind of blindly following whatever the leader of the troop kind of says is the right thing to do. Most Christian radio finds themselves just kind of kowtowing to the, the, uh, the Christian music industry, which would be like the record labels, which are, by the way, all for-profit entities. And not just for-profit, they're all owned by folks— they're all owned by bigger organizations that really could care less about the faith aspect of of the music. They simply want to make money, and they're only looking at dollars and cents and trends and sales. And so it's this weird relationship between radio and the industry, the labels, that is very unsavory. And I would say, you know, at times borderline corrupt, at least in their— at least in the decision-making. I'm not saying that people are are breaking laws or swindling money or things like that. In fact, most of the people that I know inside of Christian radio are just the greatest people, just the kindest, sweetest people. But they have this wonderful opportunity to be doing something fresh and new and innovative, and yet they don't. They choose to sort of be submissive to, to these large for-profit entities. And so that's very disheartening to me.

Well, and I think, you know, on some level too, it's probably a scary thing to try something that hasn't worked before in many ways. I think that's why in some ways podcasts like yours, for instance, and, and many of us who try to make a show, we're a little less bound to the system because for many of us it's like, "Well, what have we got to lose? Let's try it." You know, and I think in many ways, you know, radio sort of has this, "Well, this is what's always worked in the past, so that's what we need to keep sticking with, and we'll try something that falls into this pattern and into this form." And, you know, it's funny how just as humans I think we fall into that. Churches definitely fall into that mode of things. We're just gonna keep doing it the way we've always done. And yet As I think about my complaints with Christian radio, I start thinking of it in more theological terms in some ways too when I think about it. Because one of my major complaints would be that in the noble effort that I think Christian radio has to meet as many— to reach like as many as— I can't talk today— to reach as many individuals as possible with the message of the gospel, which is a very noble thing, it has somehow started to work against authentic and beautiful music oftentimes. And there's an argument that could be made that it ends up packaging the message of the gospel sometimes into something that is boring and watered-down and unoriginal. And I think the gospel gets obscured because if we're describing the gospel of Christ, or if you think of the gospel, for like the gospel Jesus brought and what it means to be lived out in the earth, words like cheesy and banal and unoriginal and boring and watered down, those things shouldn't come to mind, you know, when you're thinking about the gospel of Christ. And yet in many ways, I think that that's what I hear from people in the outside world especially. It seems like Christians sometimes give it a pass, but people who aren't Christians often listen to it and they'll use those exact words about it, which is why it seems so unappealing in some ways. And I think, you know, another source of this problem as we're having this conversation is maybe when, like, certain formats, they box themselves in like you just said so well. There's a box that they fit into. Let's just pick on this one for a second, like positive and encouraging, like that. Everything has to be only positive or only encouraging or we can't use it. And I guess that's okay on some level, but when you think of the gospel, Dave, and this— I'll just ask you this and you can respond— when you think of the gospel, do you think of it as positive and encouraging, or do you think of it as something more?

Right, I'm glad you put it that way because it is positive and encouraging, of course, but it is also something so much more. And, um, you know, and I, I just, I think that, I think that one of the things that is concerning, uh, and why I kind of even brought up the whole kind of corrupt aspect of it is that, is that the, the, the goal of Christian music nowadays is, is sales. You know, that, that is really the end goal. Um, and, and I don't necessarily fault any business for having the goal of having a lot of sales. I don't— if you're a Christian plumber, I would want you to have a lot of business as a plumber, right? Like, I, I'm not, I'm not necessarily saying just by definition, but however, we have linked ministry in with Christian music, so you know, like, like the pledge drives that I'm hearing. It's, it's— they're using the language of, you know, this, this is the spreading of the gospel, this is the, the presentation of ministry, we are changing lives. And if you're going to take that approach, then you have to— then you have to pick music that does reflect the gospel in wholeness and not just the only the songs that have a certain sound or only the songs that are upbeat or only the songs that are in a major chord or only the songs that are safe for the whole family and don't, you know, got to be careful not to, you know, make anybody feel a little bit uncomfortable. And so it's created a very white-walled presentation of "ministry," which just— the whole thing kind of feels a little bit off. I think you're right that as Christians we do often give Christian radio a pass because Jesus is a part of it, because It's almost like a bumper sticker theology, though. But I do think that there's a growing number of Christians— I would put myself in that camp— who are becoming more and more uncomfortable with only that level of ministry. "I'm looking for something deeper. I'm looking for something richer." And Christian radio seems to be going the other direction, not only just musically, but in messaging. Messages of the song, the themes, are getting narrower and narrower and narrower because they're realizing only a certain, only a certain type of theme sells. And that's unfortunate, but the record labels, not the radio stations, are the ones really picking the music. They're the ones saying, here is the single that gets released to radio. And then radio chooses whether they play it or not. Well, it doesn't have to be that way. Radio is just giving themselves over to that, to their thumb, to say, okay, we'll play the music that you pick out as a single for your artist, but, but it's, it's all under the, the banner of making a profit. So, um, so does the gospel get, um, a little bit watered down or a little bit Does it get a little muddled when you start talking about what can sell the most? What's going to be the most palatable? What's going to be the one that's going to make people spend money on a song or an album or an artist? Yes, of course it gets muddled. So unfortunately, you know, that is just business as usual when it comes to Christian radio.

Right. Well, and you said something a few minutes ago when you were talking about, you know, if a person was a Christian plumber, you know, I'd want them to have business and things like that. And I think about the category of musician versus the category of Christian musician, and it's interesting how we have developed a completely other category for music. Now there's people like me who, you know, I'm a minister, I work in a church, and music I write, I tend to write music hopefully that can serve the church in worship in some way. So I, I realize that I write from a different standpoint than a lot of people, but when I think of a writer, like, I don't personally listen to a ton of like Christian music, uh, other than things like what I hear on, on your show, because I'm much more interested in Christians who make really good art and who are an example for like making art. So when we talk about a plumber, Plumbers have lots of different tools, and they have lots of different things that they have to work on, and lots of different things they come up against. And I think artists too sort of write out of where they have to write from in a lot of ways. And it's almost contrary to an artist's heart to even box themselves in. For me, I feel like I am the most free when I'm writing for the church, and I feel like for whatever reason my calling is to write in that way. But there are times when I write other things too, because I don't feel like at all the time my heart needs to be boxed in in that way. And sometimes I think some of the most well-written, most creative, most inspiring, most touching music is music that is often made by believers, sometimes by unbelievers too, but it comes from a place of a real deep searching and a real deep longing. And it would be, you know, it'd be a mistake, I think. This is one thing that I'm gonna talk about is maybe what a source of a problem might be. There is almost this idea that if it's a Christian that's making it, it should be, for one thing, overtly Christian, to the point of almost it has to invoke the Trinity in every, you know, in one verse or something like that. But also the idea that it has to be cutting edge, you know, like it has to be the latest thing and the biggest and, you know, whatever new technology is out there. And that's fine on some level, but I also think there should be room for the ancient as well. And if you're a person who your art is best by doing something that is not necessarily the most cutting-edge thing around. I think of somebody like— let's just use an easy example— somebody like Bob Dylan. Bob Dylan's been making music for a long time. He's been writing lots of different songs, but most of it, when it comes down to it, he's not using anything really technically innovative in his writing. He's got a guitar or a piano and he's writing lyrics. How weird would it be if Bob Dylan was told, your next album, we want you to do art, but this has to be like house techno music. So make sure every song is that. And I think there's something to that. If we didn't allow him or other artists like him to have their expression, we also wouldn't have gotten the great art that they've given us. Over the years because it's just too boxed in. And for that reason, so often we don't get to hear some really incredible art, which maybe sometimes it is just, you know, a guy or a girl with a very simple acoustic guitar arrangement of something, but with just lyrics and a melody that just knocks your socks off. But maybe we're not going to hear that because it doesn't have, you know, big synthesizers and it doesn't have a verse, chorus, verse, chorus, here's the huge bridge buildup, and here's that second chorus, and then back to the first chorus, you know, type thing that we saw.

Yeah, I think that there's room for all of that music and in the landscape of, of, you know, especially Christian faith-based music. I think, I think that there's room for all of that, including the big mega anthems that we hear so often. There's room for all of that. It's all needed, I think, in the landscape, including the house techno songs and the rap songs and the hard rock songs and the guy and the girl with an acoustic guitar on stage. All of it I think is important to the landscape of faith because those are legitimate artists that God is using. He created them to express a gift. The sizes of audience might be different, but all that music is important. And I think one of the things I struggle with in the term— in specifically the radio world— is just that most people, when they listen to a Christian radio station, that's all they know of. That's what they think the entirety of Christian music is. And so they don't know that there's a world of different genres and different styles and even sometimes maybe even more vulnerable or more honest songs being written than what they hear on the radio. And I— so it's really kind of why I do what I do is because there needs to be a light shown on those other, you know, other types of music. And I think that if I was to kind of, you know, if I was to send a message to Christian radio, it would be: if you were doing your job in sharing the wide scope of faith-based music that's out there, even just slightly more than what you're doing, I wouldn't have to do this job. You would be, you know, presenting a cornucopia of great art that can be enjoyed and processed and engaged with. Yet, because that isn't happening, I feel like my work is necessary.

Well, let's talk about that a little bit, because I know that UTR Media is helping and doing its part in the best way that you can to reform Christian music in many ways. And you've, you've offered a place for us to hear so many different varieties of music from so many talented artists over the years. And you've actually created not only a place to hear music, but I think you've created a community. I can't tell you the number of friends I've made, uh, just through Under the Radar and then now UTR Media, uh, people that may hear you on my podcast or me on yours, or come to a concert, and then we become friends and things over social media. And there really is a community aspect to UTR Media. So I want to, as we, as we start wrapping up our conversation today a little bit, I'd love to talk about how UTR is doing their part to reform Christian music. And what's the best way that— what do you feel like we should do to kind of dive into that?

Conversation? Yeah, you know, the beautiful thing is that music exists, you know, music is a wonderful tool, and it's actually one of the oldest mediums out there, you know. Facebook and the internet and TV and even radio did not exist in the Bible, but yet God was speaking through music in the Bible, and music will continue on whether, you know, no matter what other technologies develop. I think music has always been a matter of the heart and will always be something that will be a gift from the artist to the receiver. And so I think one of the ways that we are trying to reform Christian music would be just to redefine Christian music because I think that even myself growing up listening to the music heard on the radio, you know, if somebody asks me the question, "What is Christian music?" at different points in my life I'd have very different answers. And in some ways, you know, it's based on the lyrics, right? But then you have someone like Lionel Richie write a song that has the word Jesus in it, and does that become a Christian song now? Because like, you know, I don't necessarily know his faith position, but I've never heard him in an interview, you know, uh, share that he has a faith in Christ. So, you know, it's sort of like, how do we define it? Where do you draw the line? And I think I actually came about thinking about this in a unique way. While I was working at Reframe Media, we were interviewing for a position of like a blog editor, and the boss in charge basically said after one of the interviews, he kind of was giving the staff an update on how things went, and, um, and he said, uh, he said, I'm interested to know, um, what do you think is the best Christian movie ever made? And the person who was being interviewed— and my ears really perked up, I was like, "Oh, I wonder what he's getting at here." And the person who was being interviewed for the job was just stumbling and stammering and trying to figure out, "How do I answer this?" Like, you know, "Is chariots of fire a Christian word?" "I don't know." And then all of a sudden You know, he started to give some sort of answer, and the boss just chimed in and said, "No, no, I'll let you off the hook. The right answer is there is no such thing as Christian movies. There's only movies made from a Christian worldview." Meaning, if you are a Christian filmmaker and you're presenting art from your perspective that is flowing through a Christian worldview, whether the end product is an action movie or a drama or, or maybe even a schmaltzy church movie, um, it doesn't matter. It— what matters is the, the worldview that's presented through the arts. And so from the very beginning of Under the Radar, that's the perspective that I took when it came to playing Christian music. That way I wasn't defining it by the lyrics. I wasn't going to only play songs that mention God or only play songs that mention Jesus or define it by a sound. I was going to define it by a worldview. So to me, Christian music is music made by Christians, right? Simply put. Um, and, uh, and that might mean that some of that music is expressing doubts and fears and talking about their struggles in a marriage and talking about raising kids and— and maybe even just nature or the beauty of going on a hike. It may not mention God or Jesus in it at all, but these are all people of faith processing their lives through art, through music. To me, that is what Christian music is. I don't know if that has been helpful to people or not, but I think that I really wanted to be intentional about opening up people's eyes and ears and hearts to what faith-inspired music really is and sort of broaden that term. So that's kind of the approach that we've taken over the years.

Well, what I like to think of it as too, and I think this is what you're doing with UTR Media, I really feel like this is maybe a good analogy and maybe a nice word picture for us. It's— there's a big enough place for more than just one thing, as you've already said before. And if you think about, like, what we eat as human beings, if we only ate candy, we're not going to be very healthy and whole people. Matter of fact, we'll probably die an early age if candy is the only thing that we eat all the time because the sugar will just get to us. And yet at the same time, there's like— if you look at a buffet and you see all the offerings that's there, I mean, there may be a salad and there might be green beans and there might be pork and there might be chicken and there might be pizza and there might be, you know, Brussels sprouts and, you know, ice cream. And I mean, it might be just you name it, they have it there. And there is a place for all these things At some point, it seems that any of those foods are appropriate. Sometimes they're nourishing. Sometimes you need the candy because, hey, you know what? You just want a piece of candy every now and then. It tastes good. It's fun. But if that's all you live on, or if all you live on is salad, you may find yourself to be a person who needs a little sweetness in your life too. I think about the depth of Scripture and all of the emotions and all of the human scenarios that happen just in the Bible alone, let alone church history as we've had added in world history. And I feel like what you are offering with UTR Media is you are showing that, hey, there's something so much bigger than just what we're seeing. Um, just as if we were to say, you know, there are other films out there than just the Christian ones, you know, that we, we dub Christians with the, the finger parentheses, so to speak. Um, right. And, and there's other music out there, and there's a much bigger buffet, and there's much more to choose from than you ever imagined that there could be. And it actually is music that can help you be much more whole as a person because you're not just hitting on one thing. And I feel like that's what you're doing. I look over again at the shows that you're offering on UTR, let alone the videos that you're putting out, which are great. But just even the podcasts alone and something like Green Room Door, where you're actually sitting down and letting an artist express themselves. Themselves and sort of hearing their side of the story. And I loved hearing the interview with Eric Peters. I believe that was the one. Am I correct? It was Green Room George? Yeah. Yeah, I thought it was. And when he just sat and started telling this story about the song Nobody, which I hadn't heard his story about it before. I'd heard the song, but just the idea of an empathetic Judas song. Something like that is like, wow, you're not going to necessarily get that on top 40 Christian radio, somebody that's going to be thinking that deeply and that introspectively about it. Or Good Patron, the idea that you're introducing, not only introducing really amazing artists through that show, but you're actually doing something very wonderful and trying to help the community support these artists in their endeavors and in making their art. Your Gourmet Music Podcast, you never know what you're going to get when you listen to that one. That really is a smorgasbord type idea with music. I love it because I'm always guaranteed I'm going to hear something I haven't heard before. That's really refreshing to me. Then your Release Date, which is a whole other NPR-style program. I'm looking forward to Side Note. For whatever it's worth, for my money, you feel like that sort of holistic, kind of healthy, big table where it's all available for us to come together and go like, "Whoa, I didn't even know this was here. I've never tried this before. I can't wait to taste this." Sometimes you go, "This is the greatest thing I've ever had," and sometimes you go, "I never want to eat that again," but you have it all there to try it out.

Yeah, I mean, not to necessarily like play on the food analogy, don't overdo it, but I kind of like to think of it maybe if you take your buffet idea and think of it more as like a block in your town. Sure. And so, you know, you have like, you have your chain restaurants and you have your fast food restaurants and you have your pizza places and your dives and your— maybe your fancy restaurant, you know, your local— the local favorite spot, you know, that kind of thing. You have like a wide gamut of what's available. And so, you know, I think that oftentimes for convenience sake or just for lack of even even the effort to want to, even having the energy to try something new. What do we do? We go through the place that has a drive-through, right? We go to the place that's the cheapest. Those are sort of like the natural inclinations for us. And I think that I actually, I just want to make it clear to the listeners that I think those places are valuable. I don't want a world without McDonald's. I don't want a world without, you know, Wendy's. I want those places to exist because I'm gonna— I need to pull through at certain times and just get a quick bite. But I also want to know that there's, you know, down the block in our street that there's a gourmet food truck that we can go to. And guess what? You might have to stand a little bit longer in line for it, and it might actually cost you a little bit more money, and you might have to wait a few extra minutes as they prepare it because they're making it fresh. But at the end, it's all worth it because of the intentionality and the deliciousness. And, you know, there's— you get something a more rewarding experience out of that. And to me, that's what I want to present. It's not to say that I don't want— if folks love the music of Casting Crowns and MercyMe and Matthew West and all sort of the biggest names in Christian music, that's great. I don't want to take that away from anybody. You know, it's sometimes fun to kind of poke at Christian music in general, but if that's where you are nourished and that's all that you need, that's totally great. But I know that for myself, and there are probably a lot of your listeners who do want something richer, a richer experience, and, and, and you have to be willing to kind of seek it out. And be willing to say, "Well, we have to forego the convenience of the drive-through. We have to like actually kind of seek this out and subscribe to this thing on our phone and go through a few extra steps to click and make it play. It's not going to be right on the radio." But hopefully the experience is rewarding at the end of the day where they go, "Oh, that's nourished me way more than I could have if I only listened to the FM dial. That's my hope, and, you know, that there are people out there that need that something more, and we can hopefully focus and support and provide a platform for a bigger array of, like we say, a more gourmet music way of experiencing arts from a faith perspective.

Yes, I think you said it very well. That was great. And now we've exhausted the food analogies, so we can't go back to that anymore. But man, that was good, and I love the way that you put that on there. Well, Dave, I am really loving, and I have to say that I admire you from the perspective not only that you take such great care with what you put out each week. But I really admire you in the way that I have seen you walk and take steps of faith with God, stepping out to do scary and big things, and things where you didn't even know if you'd be able to keep doing it. And I, I've kind of watched you from afar, and, and at times I get to be near you whenever I visit Chicago. I just want to thank you for your obedience and your example in stepping out and doing things like this. Speaking of what you do, it takes time to do something gourmet, and it takes time to do the kind of thing that you're doing. There may not even be all the rewards in the world for it, and maybe not even things that you'd like to see at once, but I can tell you as one who is from afar and who is watching what you're doing. It's blessing my life and it's helping me as I continue hopefully to step out on faith and go where God is leading me. I just— you're my hero in many ways, and I think that many of us who have been listening to UTR and have been kind of walking with you over the years, I think you've been an example for us, and I want to thank you for that.

Wow, man, thank you. That's so kind. I, I can't live up to that. So, um, I'm, I'm, I'm just— I really am honored that I get to— I'm honored that, that God, in his just vast grace and love for us, allows us to serve him in ways that, that we're passionate and that we love. Um, we don't have a God that that forces us to serve him like a slave and, and serve him in ways that, that we feel a great burden and a great heart and great heartache. But we can serve him with obedience and passion and joy and love. And, and, and so I count it a privilege every day, every single day I wake up and I don't feel like I'm going to work that day because It's such a joy to be able to do what I do. I think that God has just been gracious to me to allow me to continue this work, and I'll keep trekking along. It's still an uphill battle. I mean, we're definitely a startup nonprofit, so we're living hand to mouth, but so are the artists that we love and support as well. And I think that, like you said, the beautiful thing is it's an us effort. It's a community thing that everyone who has been supportive of UTR Media and kind of this journey, and you're one of those people, you know, there's been a team effort, and we can all sort of celebrate. We can all sort of see what God has done, and we can all I can kind of take some ownership in it. It's not just me by myself. So there's just a lot of beauty and joy to celebrate that God can allow us to serve him in that way.

Wow. I think that's a wonderful way to start wrapping up this conversation today. Is there anything that we haven't talked about yet that we should talk about before we sign off here? Today? Yeah, you know, I—

not, not really too much. I'll just, I'll just sort of re-emphasize one thing that I think is, is really important. And, you know, because I, I definitely just want listeners to understand that music is one of the most beautiful gifts that's been given to us, and As Martin Luther said, speaking of the Reformation, "Music calms the agitations of the soul, and it's one of the most precious gifts given to us by God." And as we kind of celebrate Reformation Day, I think that music is something that should be embraced as part of our spiritual life and can powerfully speak into our lives and and help be one of those tools that God uses to draw us to Himself and to help us in our journey and our walk. And so, you know, to me the most important thing is ministry, is, you know, how are you experiencing the music that you're listening to? And, you know, I grew up at a time— there was a time in my life when the music I heard on the radio was really all I needed. And, um, and that's— and you might be in that place as a listener. You, you enjoy what you hear, that's great. The most important thing is that your soul is being nourished where it's at. However, if you're in a position where it's like, I am not being soul nourished like I want to be through the things I'm listening to, then explore what else is out there. Listen to Rick's music. You can listen to, you know, the podcast that we do that will help introduce you to new artists and new music. Because to me, really the most important thing is that your soul connection to music is strong and is growing and is vibrant. At one time in my life I felt like I had lost that, and that's really what helped me discover that there's this world of music beneath the surface that I didn't know about. So I just want to encourage your listeners to just, you know, keep allowing the music— faith music that's out there— not to be a discouragement or to— it's easy to to get angry about hearing the same song 17 times in a day or whatever, but there is just so much more out there. You don't have to be, you know, you don't have to be forced to listen to just that. So go where your soul is nourished. Maybe, maybe you've just been going to the drive-through too many times and you need to hop over to the food truck and try something new, or as you said, go try something else in the buffet line. So I think that that's— I just hope that your listeners just realize that our goal is not to just bash, you know, the artists or the radio stations that are out there, but to really just kind of offer that there is something more to be discovered. Right.

Well, and as we close out this thought and we have the Reformation in mind, it occurs to me that when Martin Luther nailed his theses to the door at Wittenberg Chapel. At that time, it wouldn't have really made that big of an impact on the world except there was this thing that had been created called the printing press. It was a new medium at that time. It wasn't like Martin Luther was saying things that hadn't been said before, but now there was a way to get the message out there. And there was a way to get it out. And Martin Luther never wanted the church to have this huge split that it had. As a matter of fact, he wanted to reform it. And I think in many ways this conversation today is— I've loved the gracious way that you have stated, in a sense, if we're nailing something to the door and trying to get the word out about something, it's not because we want to necessarily destroy or have anyone break off from each other. If anything, We want the community to come together and figure out how to fix this together. And so I hope that that's been the spirit of what we've talked to today. And if we can look back over, you know, 500 years since the Reformation, if it's taught us anything, I think it's taught us that we're best when we come together rather than when we split apart. And so, so Dave Trout, I want to thank you again for what you do. And thank you so much for being one of the voices in my head. This week.

Thanks a lot, Rick. Appreciate your time.

Thank you for joining me here this week on the Voices in My Head podcast. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com. Follow me on Twitter @RickLeeJames. Like my artist page on Facebook at facebook.com/rickleejames. And keep up to date on what I'm writing at my author page on amazon.com. Make sure to follow my calendar on the website, and if you would like to have me come to your town to do a concert, a speaking engagement, or a book event, you can book me through my website by clicking on the link for Pare Booking Agency. That's P-A-R-E Booking. And finally, it would mean the world to me if you were to leave me a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, the more visible this podcast is on the internet. And now the benediction. May the God of peace who raised Christ from the dead, strengthen your inner being for every good work. And may the blessing of God Almighty, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, rest upon you and dwell within you this day and forevermore. Amen.