Episode 405 - Postcards From Babylon with Brian Zahnd, David & Kathi Peters

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Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, a songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more with friends, colleagues, and sometimes just by myself. Now make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes or by tweeting at me @RickLeeJames on Twitter. And please join my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. By the way, in case you're interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the voices in my head. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of Voices in My Head.

All of these people in these photos have lost their lives.

No justice, no peace! America is deeply reactionary at the moment. Same thing can be said for the church.

I think we have worked very hard to try to harmonize the Christian gospel and the American dream. We make a sort of Faustian bargain, a Machiavellian kind of end justifies the means.

You're part of our tribe.

And if you're part of our tribe, we'll defend you no matter what. And if you're outside of our tribe, then you're the enemy.

They recast Jesus himself as this ultimate fighting champion.

Jesus will not be a mascot for the elephants or the donkeys. Jesus is the Lamb, and he's going to reign and rule.

Every time the early Christians said, "Jesus is Lord," they were saying, "Caesar is not." Your baptism has made you an exile. You don't belong to this anymore. Political power drives everything.

You cannot criticize your political party. That's your civil religion.

You will be respected. You will be in power. It was everything that they ever wanted to hear.

The way of the Lamb is always love. The way of the Lamb is always peace. The way of the Lamb is always grace.

They say they're rejecting Christianity, but they're actually rejecting a version of American nationalism.

I think one of the most The most important thing for American Christians to perceive is that America is not a kind of biblical Israel, but a kind of biblical Babylon.

Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I'm your host, Rick Lee James, and I'm so grateful that you're here with us for another great conversation today. Postcards from Babylon is a long-form documentary featuring author and pastor Brian Zahnn as he investigates possibly the most important question for the church in North America today: How does the church stay faithful to the beautiful way of Jesus while situated in one of the most divisive political climates in our nation's history? The film explores how Christians seeking proximity to power has led to a hyper-partisan, nationalistic posture that is demonstrably hindering the witness of Christ. As exiled citizens of a superpower nation, Christians' deepest allegiance must be to the peaceful kingdom of God, and from that posture they must always seek— speak truth to power, no matter the cost. My guests today on Voices in My Head are Bryan Zahnhoff, who has been a frequent guest on the program in the past, as well as co-directors of the new documentary, David Peters and his wife Kathy Peters. The documentary, you can buy purchase, uh, you can purchase event tickets online for the documentary, which will air on January 21st at 7 PM at postcardsdoc.com. And we will be talking more about that today, but for right now, let me just welcome all of my guests here. David, Kathy, Brian, welcome to Voices in My Head.

Thank you for having us.

Rick, good to be with you.

Yes, it's good to have you all here today, and I'm so glad to be able to have a few moments to have this conversation. I know things must be very busy for you all in this time, and I want to start out by asking, first of all, how did all of you come together? Because a few years ago, Brian and I came together on this podcast, as we do it seems like when Brian publishes a book, and we have some good conversations about things that he writes about. Thought-provoking, and we had a conversation about his book Postcards from Babylon. And I'd love to know, how did this go from being one of Brian's books to becoming this documentary film?

Yeah, great question. Um, Kathy and I have been following Brian's teaching since 2015 when I read his book A Farewell to Mars and was deeply impacted by that. He's been kind of a nice centerpiece for us for conversation over the years as we've listened to his podcasts. When the book came out in 2019, I had heard about it. He'd been promoting it. And I think within just a few weeks, I purchased it and read it and was deeply impacted by it. You know, it's 2019. There was a lot going on. We were already seemingly in 2019 in the midst of election cycle, even though the election wasn't going to happen for another 2 years or whatever. So I think the part that impacted me the most, that moved us in the direction of doing the film, Brian, toward the end of the book, said that he wanted someday to be able to tell his grandchildren that he spoke out during this time. And when I read that, I thought, I truly admired that, and that he self-published the book, probably to his disadvantage in some ways. Because he wanted the message to get out there as soon as possible. So I thought I would like to be part of that and contribute to his voice, and also thinking that as we would make a documentary, we would pull in other people, some of whom we quoted in the book, like John Fia, or he quoted in the book. So yeah, so I reached out to him a couple months later. We started a conversation. He was about to leave on a trip in the fall with Perry to walk the Camino de Santiago. And so he said, "Why don't you come join us?" And it seemed like a good idea to use that as a framing device for the film, to have Brian as a prophetic voice out walking the Camino, a place where contemplative walks have happened for centuries, and to kind of turn him loose on some of these themes as he's walking the Camino. So we flew, you know, he couldn't tell us exactly where he was going to be until just a few days before, so we flew into Madrid, hopped into a car and caught up with them met them on the Camino in Rabanal with Ian Perry and had just a great time that evening of conversation and then started walking with them and filming as we went and trying to figure out how this story was going to all come together because we didn't really know. We just had this sense that we needed to get out there and try to tell the story and get the message out.

Sure. Now, what year would this have been when you initially joined him on the Camino?

In 2019.

2019, okay, so not, not too long ago, but we would have been just pre-pandemic time at that point then for sure. Yeah, little did you know. So this would have been, Brian, your— would that have been your second time walking, uh, the, the, the Santiago?

It was, it was the second time to walk the Saint Francis route. That's 500 miles. Okay, those two We walked the Portuguese route from Porto, which is much shorter. It's only like 160 miles. It was like just a little Camino tune-up.

Oh, okay.

We walked Camino in 2016, 2018, 2019.

Okay, wow. And that's a very special place too. Ever since I saw the movie that Martin Sheen made a few years ago about walking that, I'd It's always been a place that I hope to go to one day myself.

Why Americans are there.

Yeah, for sure.

I've spent, what, 100 days of my life on the Camino and have met all kinds of Americans. I've not met one who hasn't seen The Way.

Wow.

That's how Americans find out.

That's incredible. That's great. Well, now I haven't gotten the chance to see this film yet, so I'm looking forward to it like everyone else when this movie comes out. I envision it in some ways, at least in my mind, you can tell me how maybe off I am in this a little bit, but I envision it in some ways being sort of a companion to the book. Like when I read one of your books, Brian, you're wonderful about quoting a lot of wonderful authors that you've read along the way. And I see that a lot of the authors that you quote, some of whom have become friends of mine over the years on this show, people like Walter Brueggemann and Shane Claiborne and people like that that have been kind enough to speak with me on this program. I'll see them quoted in your books, and now I get to see them in this documentary. I feel like in some ways we're getting to see sort of the words from your page and the people you quote sort of popping up in the documentary, almost as if we're getting to see the book maybe come off the page in some ways in this documentary format. Is that sort of the feel that you had and the way that you're wanting it to be?

Yeah, I would say that's definitely true. It goes beyond that because, yeah, there are people that I have known and have been my friends that show up in this film, but there's also people that David and Kathy were aware of that I wasn't. And so there's new voices that I didn't know, and so they're not cited in Postcards, the book, but they show up in the documentary, and everybody makes, you know, really rich contributions.

All right, wonderful.

I mean, it's inspired by my book. I'm in the film. It has the name Postcards from Babylon, but it's not simply a documentary version of the book.

Sure.

There's a lot of— I would describe the film, I don't know if David and Kat can comment, it may be broader than my book is. You touch on more themes than maybe the book does.

Sure. You know, the challenge is when you, when you have a book like Brian's book, when you take a book and try to bring it to the big screen, if this was just a compilation of a number of interviews, people just talking, we call it talking head, that would get pretty visually boring.

Yeah.

So what David is a pro at is conceptualizing how stories, illustrations, if you want to put it that way, take the points that Brian makes in his book and bring them to life. So you'll see a couple of stories that, like, for instance, Brian talks extensively in his book about militarism. And we had an opportunity a number of years ago to film a peaceful protest in Chicago, and that forms the framework for the concepts of Brian's book to be visually interesting.

What's interesting, the book, the documentary is much better than just a series of interviews. Yeah, I'm the kind of guy that would watch a series of interviews, you know, but most people aren't. And so it's not that. And I, it, the documentary I think will capture people's attention almost immediately And again, I'm not the filmmaker, so I'll back off, but I just wanted to chime in and say it's not just a series of interviews.

Sure. And David, you were saying too?

Yeah, I guess just a little more granularity about this peaceful march that we were a part of with a group of veterans back in 2012. It was the largest gathering of NATO there in Chicago, police presence. Bust in police from all over the world based on an event earlier in Chicago where there was bloodshed. And we were working on a project that actually never came to be. So this footage has been sitting— back then I was shooting tape, so it's been sitting in a drawer on tapes, and some of it was on my computer. And I remember being very disappointed that we weren't able to use the story, but it I remember one day, it seemed like I was down in the basement, and all of a sudden it hit me, "Wait a minute, I have this footage of this event. It might provide the perfect backdrop for Brian to talk about militarism and Christians and violence and non-violence." And I still look at it and think, "Wow, that's exactly why we shot that in 2012, was for today." It's one of the most powerful moments in the film.

I'm not going to give anything away, but it's It's one of the most powerful moments in the documentary as far as I'm concerned. I mean, you understand, since I'm not the filmmaker, I mean, I knew my parts. I didn't, you know, so I began to see this film as it was being made. It was new to me.

Sure.

And that was a very powerful part.

Yeah, and I'm just thinking as you're talking now too, of course we just saw My goodness, has it even been 2 weeks ago yet when this Capitol insurrection happened? And to so clearly see the religious symbols, you know, it was a Christian insurrection that happened. It was crosses and it was Christian music playing and it was people holding up scripture passages. And then when they got inside, they were kneeling down and praying. I mean, we see this, exactly what you write about in your book. I mean, it was such clear example of some of the things that you've been writing and warning about for years. I almost wonder if, like, if you're thinking now, like, shoot, I wish we could add this extra footage into the book. I mean, into the documentary in some ways, like there's part 2 that's coming up or something, you know.

Well, actually, you're speaking David's language now because he contacted Brian. Brian's son is a videographer as well, did a brief interview, and so there is an excerpt of the film that talks about that very day. So giving nothing away, so that's the beauty of the editing is that you can make some—

That version of the film I haven't even seen.

That's right.

Wow.

Amazing.

Because we do about a 10-minute section on what we're now calling Trumpism. And so this was about a 3-minute addition. And actually part of it was something we pulled out of the film because someone said, "You know, I think that's a little heavy-handed as it relates to—" because Pete Weyner, who we interviewed, talked about what happens when you dismantle truth. And the way he said it, you know, it was clearly in relationship to Donald Trump. But he basically, it was like a prophetic statement that he gave us back in February of 2020 that basically played out, you know, a week and a half ago. So we put that back in plus Brian, and we were able to, you know, with AP, AP News, you can use their photos. So we were able to build something and, and tell that story because it's really, it was, it was a culmination. Of so much of what others would— some said they were not necessarily shocked by it or surprised by it, but it was shocking to actually watch.

Yeah, and it certainly was, for sure. And it was so sad to see, and you hate to almost have a moment like an "I told you so" moment, but it almost felt like that in some ways, and in a very sad way. I, you know, I wanted to ask you a little bit too. I can only imagine when you're making a film like this and seeing some of the footage that you had, and I love seeing some of the footage of Brian out walking the Camino and things like that. I assume the way that you wanted to make the film was go to meet each person and be with them and find location settings, but then this pandemic happened and all of us have had to think in new ways and be creative and find new ways to do it. What were some of the ways that you had to rethink and do things in new ways to create a film like this that you— maybe some challenges, and maybe did you find some new things that you wouldn't have thought of before that actually maybe turned into a win for you in making the documentary in a new way?

One thing that— one of the things that we had planned, and just to give you just a crash course on what happened, I mean, we had all kinds of trips planned and, like you said, locations planned for these interviews.

We were going to get to sit with Walter Brueggemann, interview him. Yeah. So in his hometown.

So yeah, we had it scheduled twice. Once a snowstorm kind of thwarted that, and then with COVID he just felt like It probably wasn't the best idea. So, but anyway, one of the things that we, you'll see in the film is we had planned to have a very intimate dinner with a half a dozen or so people of different thought streams when it comes to Christians in politics, all local people, because we were going to host this dinner in this beautiful farmhouse setting and set up the cameras and just have them eat and talk and share their views. And so we had a date set. And then COVID happened. So Zoom to the rescue. So Zoom is David's nemesis. I hate Zoom. Oh, he hates Zoom.

Video, audio sucks.

But what was really interesting was when we first reached out on Facebook to ask who might be interested in being part of this roundtable discussion, I had a number of people respond to me saying, oh, I'd love to, but I'm 3,000 miles away. Somebody from Canada, one of my— the guys that I graduated from high school with who lives in Texas. So once we realized we were going to have to do this on Zoom, I reached back out to those people. So we have a gentleman from Texas, one from Southern California who attended a church that we did when we lived there, and a friend of ours from Canada. So it ended up being— and local people. So it ended up being very, very diverse and kind of an interesting way. So basically we had to kind of reinvent any interview that we couldn't do in person on Zoom. But then we did have, if you remember, kind of toward the end of the summer, middle end of the summer in the United States, we had kind of a lull in COVID. And so we actually did get to go to Gettysburg College. And literally we talked to the gentleman, he's a professor at Gettysburg College. And this was on July 3rd. On July 4th, we were there at Gettysburg College with him talking about racism and had a very— Gettysburg battlefield. On the Gettysburg battlefield, had a very interesting time watching some confrontation, and it's very tense. So, so we were able to do some of that, but just not what we hoped to do. But we feel like we rallied well, and it's visually— we feel it's a stunning film visually, primarily because the footage we got with Brian and Perry on the Camino. But otherwise, we think It's very beautiful. So, yeah, and actually we feel like being able to—

and we even address, we talk about the fact in the film how COVID impacted how it was shaped. But I feel, you know, long term people will watch this maybe 5 years from now, and I think it'll be as relevant 5 years from now as it is now. They'll say, oh, that was 2020. And the fact Zoom interviews, and we even our interview with Walter Brueggemann, we had technical problems and we edited that into the film and had some fun with it. Yeah, I think in the end it will have added to the production and have kind of provided, you know, a unique window into 2020 and what we had to do as individuals and even what the news had to do and what filmmakers had to do to continue storytelling.

Well, and that very much could be true, and I could very much see that. You know, there's a book that I have relied on over the years. It was written about 20— well, it's over 20 years ago now, called Resident Aliens, that Stanley Howard-Wasson and William Wilmon wrote. And, uh, it's, it's about, you know, the church being this separate colony in the world. And I feel like it's one of those books that is actually more relevant today than it was back then when it was written. And I feel like a film like this, actually, because of the subject matter and because of the potholes that the church seems to keep tripping into again and again with this desire for power and militarism and strength. I think you're right. I think maybe this could be something that could continually be beneficial for the church to revisit again and again. So I'm grateful for filmmakers like you, and I'm grateful for pastors like Brian who are unafraid to speak the truth in moments like this. And speaking of that— we were a little afraid. Yeah, well, well, let me say this way: brave enough to say it even in the space, in the in some fear. And speaking of that, I did want to ask you a bit about that, because I know it can be a fearful thing. I did just read a wonderful review that you sent me, David, and I'm grateful for that, that the Religion News Service put out from the Baptist Global News just a few days ago, and it was really a very good review of the film. Knowing what I know, though, about how things are working, especially in the white evangelical Christian world right now, I know it's not all going to be good. I know that reviews of this are probably going to also come with a fair amount of attacks.

Oh, we've gotten one of those already.

I'm sure. I'm just wondering— David and Kathy, welcome to my world.

Yeah.

I'm actually wondering how, Brian, especially you, because I know you have faced a good deal more probably than David and Kathy have at this point of this, how are you holding up? With all of this right now. Do you feel like you have a strong support structure? I mean, with your church and with your family? It's not always easy speaking truth in times like these, and it is helpful to have, you know, supportive Christians around you and loved ones.

Yeah, but I've been doing this a while, and I was under kind of steady critique or worse attack from about 2010 on. And at first it was withering and it was disconcerting and unsettling and would get into my soul and take away my peace. That's a lot of why we walked that first Camino in 2016, and we seemed to have shed all of that. After that first Camino in 2016, we came back and I mean, I'm still saying what I'm saying. I'm not trying to deliberately be a provocateur for the sake of being a provocateur, but I want to say what I want to say and not be intimidated. And I can tell you that today, I would say for the last 4 or 5 years now, it doesn't seem to doesn't faze me much. I do have my friends, and that's what counts. I have my friends and my family, but most of all I've got Jesus. And I feel like I'm not doing this for the sake of to be one who just stirs the pot. I'm perfectly content with just being a peaceable soul. I really am, believe it or not. But I just guess what I'm trying to say is it really doesn't bother me anymore. I mean, I don't think I'm callous. I think I'm just at a point in life where, you know, I'm convinced that the Lord is with me and everything's going to be all right in the end. And so I just want to be found faithful. So it doesn't really bother me much.

Good. That's good. Well, and I think that's a good attitude to have. And I want to let you know, and I want to encourage everyone listening to know as well too, we will be praying for you in the midst of that. I've experienced a bit of that myself over the years, not probably in the way that Brian has, but even just this past summer I released a music video called Love Our Enemies, and it was amazing to me. I started getting comments from people that were just incredibly hateful. Like, anytime you do something that's fairly gospel-oriented that has has to do with loving enemies and things like that. It's always amazing to see, like, wow, it's amazing to see the gospel truth come out when you hear about, you know, this is a stumbling block, you know, that Paul talks about, you know, it's a scandal to the Jews, a stumbling block to the Gentiles, but to those of us who are being saved, it's the very power of God. So all that being said, listeners of Voices in My Head, I hope that we'll all commit to be praying for you guys too in the midst, not only that this will be film that will be received by a lot of people with open hearts, but also that we'll be praying for you in the midst of it, because it can be hard to receive criticism at times, and the church has been full of critics, let's put it that way. Well, I don't want to take up all your time today, but I do want to make sure that people—

I've got one thought if I could jump in. Oh sure, please, please do. Someone who's basically an introvert For those of you that know the Enneagram, I'm a 9, so I'm a peacemaker. I'm trying to, you know, how can we all get along is kind of my mantra. I remember during the summer when there was so much protesting going on, I saw this picture of this little girl. She was kind of off, seemingly off in the corner with people all around her, and she was holding this sign and she said, "It's so bad out there that even us introverts had to do something." And I kind of feel like that's part of what's been stirring in my soul, that there's some things, and again, like Brian, I don't, some people love controversy, they love creating it, they love jumping into the middle of it. I'm not that way. And I like your term of being a provocateur, that's not what this is about, but it's very much a heartfelt statement that, that there's— the gospel is at stake. The beauty of Jesus is being, you know, just squashed and contorted into ways that are totally unlike his way. So it's time, you know, and for us it was time to make a statement like this. So we— but yeah, thank you for your prayers and concerns.

We do appreciate those prayers. Personally, it's hard on me. Yeah, I appreciate the prayers.

Well, definitely. Well, you've got them for sure, and we will keep doing that. I do want to let all of our listeners know, I just— one more time, they can go to postcardsdoc.com. That's D-O-C, so postcardsdoc.com. It's January 21st, which is this coming Thursday. This podcast will actually release on the 20th. Which is, uh, I guess that's Inauguration Day coming up. So, um, this will be good timing for this. Now let me just ask you a quick question so everybody will know that's listening. If they were to buy tickets for the event but for some reason they can't watch it on the 21st at 7 o'clock PM, can they still watch the movie for a set amount of time after this? Is it going to be available for them to see?

It will be available once you get the link when you purchase a ticket. You will be able to watch that up through the end of February. In fact, if you want to watch it more than one time yourself, you can. That link stays active all the way through the end of February.

Great. Okay.

The movie is an hour and 20 minutes, and then the roundtable discussion afterwards is an hour and 25 minutes. So it, in some ways, it's kind of a big pill to swallow in one night. So we might recommend you know, you watch the film, think and ponder it, maybe watch some of the discussion, but then come back later when you're fresh and listen to this discussion where those that were in the film, some of those we got back together to discuss it, and it was really a fascinating hour and 25-minute conversation.

And this is 7 o'clock in every time zone. Okay. So yeah, so if you're in Australia, it's 7 PM your time on the 21st, but again, once you buy Once you buy a ticket, that link stays open and available until the end of February. Great.

That— all right, well, that's great to know. So if they can't be there right at 7, they can still have it till the end of February to watch. That's very helpful to know. So if, if people are— want to go to postcards— sorry, postcardsdoc.com, they can go there. Also, it's going to be in the show notes of my podcast at voicesinmyheadpodcast.com or anywhere you listen listen to this podcast. I'll make sure it's in the show notes so you can just simply click on the link there, and that'll take you where you can buy tickets for this. So I hope everyone that is listening today will go and purchase an event ticket to watch and be a part of Postcards from Babylon, the documentary. It has been great to visit with you all today. I want to thank you all for your, your work in doing this. It's been great to, to just have some time with you all today, and it's been a real privilege to get to share this with my audience. And I am looking forward to being to experience it myself. So I'm wishing you all the very best, and thank you all for being some of the Voices in My Head this week.

Our pleasure. Thanks, Rick.

Really appreciate it. Thank you, Rick. Sure thing.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, follow my blog, and even schedule me for a concert or speaking engagement. Better yet, even a book signing in your neighborhood. You can find all that and more at rickleejames.com. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, the more visible this podcast will be online. And now for the benediction. May the May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. God bless you, and thank you for listening to Voices in My Head.