Episode 424 - The SCi-Fi Christian 10th Anniversary Celebration

Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, a songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more with friends, colleagues, and sometimes just by myself. Make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes or by tweeting at me @RickLeeJames on Twitter. And please join my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. By the way, in case you're interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the voices in my head. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of Voices in My Head.

Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I'm your host Rick Lee James, and I am so glad to have you here with us again for another another great episode. I am especially excited this week to be welcoming back two of my friends, Matt Anderson and Ben DeBono of the Sci-Fi Christian Podcast. This week I invited them here because this is their 10th anniversary celebration. I had them on the show this week because really their show inspired me to start my show back around 10 years ago whenever they got started doing their podcast is really probably about the time that I started getting into podcasts and started listening and started trying to figure out, hey, I wonder if I could start doing a podcast of my own. And I can remember distinctly searching for a podcast, wondering if anybody out there was doing anything from a Christian perspective talking about things like J.R.R. Tolkien. And here I found this great sci-fi Christian podcast with Matt and Ben. Little did I know that we would become friends, that Ben and I would even have a couple occasions where we would hang out and have some wonderful in-person stories to share from a couple trips to Chicago over the year— over the years. And, uh, anyway, we've just had some, some great times over the years doing some podcasts and getting to hang out. So tonight on Voices in My Head. I am so glad to welcome Matt and Ben from The Sci-Fi Christian on my show to just celebrate with them 10 years of their great podcast and to talk about some of the ways that their show has evolved over the years. So Matt and Ben, welcome to Voices in My Head.

Thank you.

Thank you, Rick. That was great to be back.

That was a great introduction. And I, I was wondering, we've been on this show before, you've been on our show, but I think it's been a while. Do you happen to have any notes on when the last time we were here was?

I don't know. I'm trying to remember because it has been a while and I should have done my homework and looked things up, but I'm just—

I'm going to scan your website right now.

You could do that, but I don't even know. It's been so long and I'm just lazy enough that I didn't look it up beforehand tonight.

I did look it up for you for our show. All right. It's been longer than you expect. I If my notes are correct, Man of Steel, I'm thinking. No, that was, that was 2013. We had you on, of course, for Man of Steel review in 2013. You were on for a Catholic question and answer episode with Ben in 2014. That was a crossover. You and I did a crossover episode about Spider-Man in 2015. It looks like the last time we had an episode where you were on in the Sci-Fi Christian feed, it was a crossover with Voices in My Head where you and Ben discussed The Exorcist.

I remember that.

Yeah, December 2016 that we posted it.

Yeah.

Okay, so 4 and a half years.

Yeah, yeah, that was a great episode. Yeah, thank you. Well, it's good to— it's good to be back on, on my show and your show, I guess.

I love that intro because I, I feel like we can, you know, kind of take credit for all the good work you've done over the years.

I did wonder though, you— I've heard you mention that we inspired you to do your own show, and is it as simple as you just kind of, you know, as listening— you were listening to ours and listening to others, you just felt like you could? Or, uh, or is there more to it? What was it specifically about The Sci-Fi Christian that you decided, you know what, I'm going to do my own podcast?

I think it was, it was partially that I just enjoyed the way that you guys interacted with each other and some of the topics that you were covering on your show. And even though you were The Sci-Fi Christian, it wasn't always just sci-fi. And I think whenever I was thinking about— wasn't always Christian, it wasn't always Christian. Sometimes it was just downright filthy. No, it was— it wasn't that at all. No, um, no, when I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do, um, because I'm a musician, I didn't want to necessarily be pegged into just music on my show. And you guys were always talking about a variety of topics and So I thought, you know, I could maybe do something like that where I talked about music but also other things. And so I really enjoyed the way that you would have news every week and— not every week, but there were certain episodes where you would talk about news and there were certain episodes where you had topics and then there was just conversations. And so it kind of became something that I thought it would be a lot of fun to do, but maybe I could do it with a different guest every week. And I didn't know exactly how my show was going to look. But yeah, you definitely were an inspiration behind that. And I had been listening to podcasts for a while, but I hadn't really found any kind of Christian-based podcasts that I enjoyed nearly as much as I enjoyed yours. And I don't know exactly why that was. I think that yours was just a little more free-flowing and it wasn't wasn't necessarily preachy, if that makes sense. It was just a lot more laid back, and it was much more conversational, and it wasn't necessarily the kind of show that was out to, you know, make converts necessarily. I don't think you would have been opposed to make converts, but at least not about Christianity, right?

I make converts on a number of topics, right?

It was simply that you were just being who you were, and you were Christians, and you were talking about things you enjoyed. And so I think that was kind of where I was going with mine as well. So, uh, so yeah, that's kind of where I went. But, uh, but you know what, you, you've already, you know, we've been talking for 5 minutes and, uh, 47 seconds by my count, and you already hijacked the show, Matt, by asking me questions.

I did notice that. I'm glad you picked up on that. I noticed that and I thought it was very rude.

Yeah, I'm sorry.

I love to ask questions.

And that's, you know, we joke that our show is also an interview show, or at least I joke this, but that I'm the only guest. I think that kind of is true in a way, because Matt does love to ask questions and I like to talk about things, and it works out very well.

I think it's true.

We kind of have the same format as you, just fewer guests.

I think it is true. I think that in some ways that is very true, and, and you guys work very well together in that format. You know what, let's talk about that a little bit too because I do think that is kind of the formula of your show. And yeah, I've kind of listened to your show from the beginning. I didn't start from episode 1. I kind of caught you several episodes in and then I caught up and kind of went back. And then I think I've listened to every episode in your free feed anyway. I know that now you have a subscription service that people can actually get a paid feed, and there's an uncensored feed and other ones that are on there as well.

Yes, there is.

But the show has evolved over the years. But when you first started, tell us real quick, just so in case listeners aren't familiar with how you started, uh, you first started, uh, from kind of an outgrowth of the church that you were both serving at at the time, didn't you?

Yeah, that's right. So I've liked podcasts, and I was— I've been listening to podcasts since, uh, 2005. And let's see, Ben, was it 2009 that we planted? Not we, but we went to the church plant.

2010. It was end of 2009 is when it started, and then 2010 is when it was officially publicly launched.

All right. So 4 years into me listening to podcasts and being in that world, uh, we were a part of a church plant where Ben was the pastoral intern. I was helping, but no official capacity. And the pastor—

You were the helper.

I was a helper. The pastor, was open to this idea I had to have a supplemental podcast. So whatever the sermon was going to be about, we would have— we would discuss that topic but from a different direction. We wouldn't rehash the sermon. We'd talk about something related but not exactly the same. So that— we launched that in fall 2010. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yeah, yeah.

And, uh, do you want to take it from here?

Well, it wasn't successful either in content or listenership.

Oh, I think the content was great.

We'll get to the content. We had, on a really good week, we'd maybe get 5 listeners. I don't know if—

I was going to say 4.

I don't think any episode of the Life Report in its original run ever cracked double digits.

And you know, which is sad because it was specifically for—

It was a lot of work too.

—the church audience.

And it really, like, nobody likes criticism. Nobody likes— I'm sure you've gotten critical emails over the years. Rick Lee James, we have it. Nobody likes it, but it's a little different when it's 40% of your audience just criticized you at the same time. So, you know, criticism kind of cuts you to the heart.

Are you saying criticism in the sense of not listening? No.

Well, there's that, but then like the people that were listening would sometimes be like, you guys should do blah, blah, blah, blah, less of this. And you know, you, you, you kind of, kind of cut you to the core when that's half the audience.

I remember really clearly, it had to have been November or December of that first year. So we had only been podcasting for a few months at that point that we started to sneak in more of our sci-fi interests. Maybe nobody was listening, we might as well talk about what we want to talk about. Yeah, so I think comic book talk got brought up, but in fact, our— the last episode we just recorded for our main feed, uh, was about the recent zombie movie called Army of the Dead, uh, and I remember it must have been around December, we just started talking about was Jesus a zombie. We didn't really believe it, but we're just We were just discussing how I— some people could interpret the Jesus story as a zombie story, although again, we don't believe that. But that led us down a road where we realized maybe we should have a side podcast, a secondary. At the time, that would have been our secondary podcast, with The Life Report being our main podcast, where we can talk about whatever we want when it comes to movies, the flagship. Yeah, movies, TV shows, uh, whatever. And so right away, January 2011, It was January 11th, 2011 that we launched our— we recorded and released our first episode.

So content-wise, The Life Report, which started as this exploration of kind of parodying— not parodying, but supplementing The Servant series quickly devolved within a matter of months to doing a chapter-by-chapter read-through of some book by John Stott that you had had on your shelf for years. And wanted to read.

And it was a great excuse to read it.

That was 100% why we did that. And it's funny because of the Sci-Fi Christian, like, we're doing a read-through of Moby Dick right now on the uncensored feed, and it's arguably the best thing we've ever done. The John Stott book was the worst thing we've ever done.

Almost. I mean, I enjoyed John Stott.

Yeah, this is not a commentary on John Stott. This was a commentary on the 12 straight weeks of a very thin book by John Stott that largely repeated itself. Probably wasn't the best way to get that podcast off the ground.

Here, I got it. It's called— is this right? The Radical Disciple. Yeah. Some Neglected Aspects of Our Calling.

So it's— I'm sure it's a fine book. I don't remember it very much. But then the real kicker, the death knell of the Life Report was because we were both in school at the time. And so I was, you know, we were doing— we're both doing this master's degree. Yeah.

Theology. Yeah, so we're both pursuing at the same school our Master of Arts in Theological Studies.

So one of the classes there required you to do some type of project, and it was very broad on what this project could be. It was—

the class I was in was called The History of Christianity, and I had to do— it was just like in high school when you have this like semester-long project that you're working up towards.

Yeah, so you could write a big paper, you could do like a series of class notes for it, or video. You can do video, or you could do a podcast.

Well, I asked, can I do a podcast for my end of the semester project?

So we, we had the History of Christianity, Part 1 through 7. And, uh, it's, it's one of my favorite things from the Life Report because it's so bad. It gets worse as it goes on.

Well, it was kind of bad because I've never really talked to you about this, Ben, but I think we have, but So this was for a grade, for my grade. And Ben was getting increasingly uninterested in the subject matter. So if you could see us live, Ben was like on, on the computer doing, I don't even know what. Doing other things. I'm talking to the notes. His responses were getting less and less and, and like a little bit disgruntled. I did not, I mean, this is one of my, I actually got a, a bad grade on this, on this project. And I like to blame Ben. I had straight A's until then, and then this project ended up getting me an A-. I think my first A-.

Well, you were okay, but I mean, what's fun is that the first episode, I am genuinely engaged, genuinely trying to help you get your grade, and then you're right, it devolved from there. I think the low point of it was when you could tell I wasn't paying attention and you had reached something where the Great Commission came into it and you You asked me if I was in favor of the Great Commission. Just trying to re-engage you. Yeah, and I don't remember exactly what my rant was, but it did engage me for a pretty great rant.

Yeah, you were mad. Yeah. For no reason.

So the death of the Life Report came shortly thereafter, but not truly the death.

No, in April of 2011, 3 months into doing the Sci-Fi Christian, we decided to put the Life Report on hiatus.

Well, we didn't decide. Our pastor, because remember this was tied to the church, yeah, uh, told us that he didn't want the life report to end. It could go on a hiatus, and it's been on hiatus ever since.

And the church has since closed. Does not exist. That church plant lasted 3 years, and Ben and I left the church before it closed. Yeah, but we did go to the final Sunday, I think. Did you? I was at the final kind of the celebration Sunday, right? Uh, so Yeah, that was— so that's how we got started.

So, so, uh, so the history of the Sci-Fi Christian starting is you destroyed a church with your first podcast. Awesome. We destroyed a church podcast.

No, like, there's a specific space there. I mean, I wouldn't blame the whole failing of the church on the Life Report.

You know, Rick, I do have something really sad, and you can relate to this probably as a podcaster. Or just somebody that works in, in different forms of media. Sure. I, because I had a hard drive crash and because the church website doesn't exist anymore, those original episodes of the Life Report are, are gone forever. I have some that I have to back up in on a CD of all things.

It's like the lost, lost BBC episodes of Doctor Who.

So yeah, we, I've been wanting to go back in and, uh, put these Life Report episodes maybe in one of our paid Patreon feeds or even on the main feed if we want to take a break for you know, 4 months.

I don't think that'd be a good way to maintain the listening audience.

But no, yeah, I'm sad. I would love to go back and hear those first episodes where we started podcasting together. I'm not saying they're going to be good, but you like to hear the history.

I think we do have the History of Christianity ones.

Well, the History of Christianity YouTube video is available where it's like a highlight reel that I put together. Oh yeah, of you getting mad. Sounds like it is pretty great.

It sounds like it would be a really engaging subject with Matt trying his best and pouring his heart into it while Ben's playing Minesweeper on his computer.

There's a lot of, uh, our Life Report, uh, podcast, uh, YouTube page, and there's a lot of good stuff on here from the John Stott days. Christian maturity. Wait, that's tolerance.

Where are you finding this? It's on YouTube. Oh, okay. So Rick, we're making lots of jokes about this, but I put hours of work into preparing for those podcasts, for the History of Christianity. For the History of Christianity, you did. And, uh, Ben did not— he did not prepare and was not even there presently, really, when I was recording.

I was there physically.

Yeah, yeah, I guess that's true.

So, all right, that's all we have for the beginning, but it was laying the groundwork for what was to come ahead, for sure. I guess that's true. So Well, and then when you actually did figure out where you were going and it became The Sci-Fi Christian, I think it probably helped you both though in that it kind of felt like you knew what you were doing a little bit more, you know, in the sense in which it had already— the cake was kind of baked a bit when you actually did start The Sci-Fi Christian because it felt more like you new, um, you felt like more seasoned podcasters to me, you know, whenever that show had started. I don't know if you felt that way.

Um, yeah, no, I think that's true, you know. And I think we, we evolved quite a bit even from where we started at Sci-Fi Christian. But yeah, I think we did definitely hit the ground running thanks to the sacrifice of The Life Report, right?

And sometimes that has to happen. I think that's That's what happens in every area of life. There's a great lesson in that actually, because you don't just start out with anything being exactly where you're going to end up going, for sure. Man, if you could— I mean, you can actually listen back to my early shows, and I don't like listening to them because, man, they're not great, because I'm just really trying to figure out exactly what the show is going to be, and they're hard to listen to for me. It's kind of that way with my early music too, and trying to figure out, you know, what kind of a musician I'm going to be, and trying to figure out recording techniques. But then you guys, when you finally did figure out where you were going with the Sci-Fi Christian, um, it felt like there was really a strong chemistry between both of you. And you did that for, I want to say, um, about a year or so together, uh, maybe it was 2 years, I can't quite remember the exact order. And then there was a time period where it felt like everything was really kind of sailing along very well. And Matt and Ben, both of you guys, it was such a good show. And then Ben decided he needed to leave the show for a little while.

Yeah, we had, uh, a behind-the-scenes conflict. No, that's not true. No, no, it was for—

it was, uh, family reasons actually. Life was too crazy. Yeah. Uh, but I— so I abandoned The Sci-Fi Christian.

Yeah, at some point during the end of season 1, we just call each year that we're recording since we happen to start in January, uh, our different seasons. So at the end of year 1, I, I can't remember when you warned me, but we were starting to record less and less. Yeah. Uh, and I think we still had good episodes, but I think it was sometime in the fall where you said that you wanted to wrap up at the end of the year, possibly. Oh, I don't know. Do you remember?

I don't remember. No, I don't remember either.

So then I was determined to keep it going without Ben. And you did. I think when you did tell me, I think there was always— the door was open for you to return, but I didn't know if you were going to come back. Yeah. So my idea at the time had been I'd figure out how to use Skype, which now that we use Zoom and things like Microsoft Teams all the time, it seems silly. But at the time, I didn't really Skype with people too much. And so I had this idea that I would have a listener. Actually, the idea was what you ended up doing with Voices in My Head. I would just have random guests keep the conversation going.

Rick's guests are generally well-known authors and singers and, and, and thinkers. And your guests were gonna be listeners.

Listeners. True. But then, uh, we ended up, uh, I couldn't figure that out until I, I got, uh, some friends from church to replace Ben. So sometimes I'd have myself and our friend Daniel. Sometimes I'd have myself and our friend Kobe. Sometimes it would be the 3 of us. And that kind of kept things going. So, uh, and then Ben appeared throughout that second year because I had so much, uh, I mean, just different clips of him that maybe we never released, like different recordings, maybe a conversation we had before an actual episode that I still had the recording of. Or I, I started something that I call time loops, or when I would preach. Oh yeah, well, let me talk about time loops. I started time loops, which are just rerun episodes. And keep in mind, this was just one year later, but we're under 100 episodes at this point. We're at like episode 40, and I'm like, oh, let's, let's rerun this episode that Ben was on just to keep him around. Because there, like you said, there is something, um, I think Ben and I have a good podcast chemistry. So I agree. Uh, and then yeah, Ben was preaching at the time. Uh, he, before he converted to Catholicism, which I'm guessing you'll bring up here, he was one of the pastors at my Protestant church. And so anytime that he preached a sermon, it was gold for me, straight to the Sci-Fi Christian feed. So yeah, so I kept— I mean, if you actually look at season 2 where Ben wasn't on regularly, or sorry, when Ben wasn't ever recording with me live, I think he was— he probably wasn't missing from too many episodes because I was able to sneak him in there. My presence was, was there. Your presence was felt. And then I came back. Yeah, halfway through the third year. I don't— it wasn't right away, but halfway through our third year you did come back all the way.

And we, we, we started one of the best jokes in sci-fi Christian history around this time. Which is that we started a gag that Kobe, who is one of the co-hosts who filled in, was not a real person, and that this had all been an elaborate ruse.

It had been Ben all along.

So the way we did this, which I think you were the master— I do remember you sent something in, Rick, and I could tell you were like, I love getting people to the point where they're 90% sure it's fake because you could just hear that 10% of doubt.

That's like where you were. Yeah. Well, what we did, let's tell the audience what we did. We, after a regular episode with no sort of introduction or warning, we let the recording keep on going. So there's a little bit of silence, and then we just started having a conversation as if we accidentally kept it recording, and now we put it out to the audience.

And it was like, when should we tell? I think we intentionally talked about a couple other mundane things for a few minutes first, just to throw them off the scent. And then we put it— when do you think we should tell people about about Kobe. Oh, you mean that he's not real? It was, it was phenomenal.

And so there were some people that thought Kobe was fake and actually Ben pretending to be a different person for one full year.

It's, it's such a possible gag when you think about it. Nobody knows who we are.

Well, it's all audio. It was so funny because like this particular— so many podcasts now have video to them, so it wouldn't work if you had the video feed. But, but the way that you were doing it, and, and like, I remember listening to that and thinking, what? Because the, the audio in the background, the way you guys were doing it, it was, it was almost plausible.

And we previously had put the microphones further away from us, so it was as if you're kind of hearing us talk from a distance.

You're hearing something you, you're not meant to hear. Yeah. Yeah.

And, and yeah, yeah, it was, it was a funny, it was a funny gag where, where, and, and the funny, the funny part of it was how you guys were always, uh, how Ben especially was always just kind of, uh, making fun of Kobe. Yeah, that was fun.

Actually, I don't, I don't actually, I'm just gonna be honest, I don't actually love that because in real life Kobe is one of my very best friends. And so I, I like— I have to continually defend him when Ben is— I don't make fun of him anymore. I know, I know, you just— you in the past, it was all just joking, but it's still— it's like, this is one of my best friends, please lay off his case a little bit.

Well, the best part was he didn't— we didn't tell him we did this whole joke. Well, Kobe doesn't listen to the show.

No. Uh, he was, he was, uh, willing to be on with me, so I'm sure he listened to some episodes that he was on, but I wouldn't say he's a regular listener.

I don't think he's listened in years.

But shout out to Kobe, which I mean, uh, even with the jokes that Ben makes sometimes, I think you'd have to admit without Daniel and Kobe helping, yeah, we couldn't— we wouldn't be here today.

Yeah, it was, it was— they definitely helped in the, in the meantime.

And, and your way through it, I don't think I could do it alone.

Like, I don't think you're a monologuer. No, you know, in fact, we're talking about how I like to interview people and I do like asking questions Uh, but as I think back to the history of Christianity that we've done on Life Report, I, I did the preparation, but then you got kind of bored. So I think I realized then, okay, if this show's gonna work, Ben has to prepare it. I'll ask questions along the way. Because how we usually do it is I, I produce the episodes, I do the editing, I get everything prepared, I put it out there in the world, I do all the website posting. Ben does 80%, if not more, of the show prep. So when we have a conversation, he's bringing the conversation. I'm asking for news. Oh yeah, I forgot about the news. We do every 2 episodes, we do news basically. So we do 1 news episode, 1 main topic. If we do a movie review, we both just come with our thoughts. But if we do an in-depth conversation, probably Ben's the one that's prepared that. Uh, so I think we, we split the work well, but I am more of the interviewer, and I, I think that helps. So for something like History of Christianity, where I did the preparation If Ben's not interested, he's probably not going to be as engaged. And so it makes it better if he just prepares and I ask my questions along the way.

Yeah, I think it's true though. It's, it's that it was about finding out each other's strengths as we went on. And I think that's what's kept the podcast going is that we've both been comfortable, uh, existing in the, that, that space of strength, uh, that complements each other very well.

Well, let me ask you guys this, because— and I definitely want to get a little bit into the Catholic conversation, and we could go on all night if we asked you about the history of your show, but I think we've actually—

Yeah, we're only at season 2, Rick.

Yeah, I know. I think we've covered a lot of that in past episodes too, maybe where we've had conversations like this before, and even on your show you've done some retrospective things. And so it's, it's probably territory that a lot of people who've listened to you guys, um, probably are pretty well versed in. But there's a couple things I specifically wanted to ask you guys about. Um, there's, there's two things really, and one I want you to just think about for a minute, and, and maybe we'll come back to it as we kind of close out our conversation. So, so just be thinking about this question first, okay? Um, and this question is, after 10 years of doing podcasting together, or just even doing podcasting, that's a long time, uh, for, for a lot of people to do. Podcasts come and go. Sometimes they last for a few months, sometimes they last for a while, but there's very few that last for 10 years. Um, so what I want you guys to both think about for a minute as we continue our discussion, um, why are you still doing it? Like what do you get out of it personally and what is there that kind of brings you fulfillment and probably a joy from that. I would have to guess that there's something in you that really, that I don't know, some kind of need that maybe is even being met. I would have to think for you to continue doing it because it is a lot of work. I know from doing it week after week myself. So just think about that one. For a minute, okay? And, and we'll come back to that one as we close out our conversation later, but I want you to have some time to think about it. But one thing I want us to, to kind of touch on a bit, it is sort of the, the Catholic and, and Protestant dynamic between you guys on the show. One thing that I have really loved about your journey over the years, and having been one that has followed it pretty much from the beginning is the way that I've seen your relationship evolve and the way that I've seen Ben in, in changing over from being where he was, being a minister at a Protestant denomination, at a really kind of a non-denominational, I guess, church, which probably leaned a little bit more on the Baptist side of things, into A lean so, so far on the Baptist side that it was in fact Baptist. Was in fact Baptist. Okay, then that confirms it. Um, but leaning into then becoming Catholic and, and really embracing that and then really forming a new identity, I think. Um, not, not just I think, I, I think I really see, um, a new, a whole new aspect of your personality and a whole new richness of your faith coming out. And I can, I can feel that in your conversations. And it's been neat to kind of see that growth. Part of what's been fascinating to me, listening to your conversations together, is I feel like I can almost see myself in both of you in that way, because I've been one that's kind of teetered on the line of both of those things over the years. Um, with, with being that back in college, I remember even though I was at a Protestant university, uh, and I trained in religious studies, it was Catholic authors that they always had me read. And I can remember really being torn, like, do I even want to be Protestant? And I've always been very drawn to more the more Catholic side of the faith in many ways. And I've always felt this this real tension of like being pulled back and forth and back and forth. So often in your conversations together, one thing that has been kind of neat for me is to kind of get to hear both sides of the conversation. I almost feel like, like the Ben side of the conversation is like, what if I would have gone that way? And then I have Matt on the other side. Well, what if, you know, here I am on this side of the conversation too. And I wonder if a lot of your listeners have kind of felt that as well, maybe kind of also feeling their faith enriched by the way that you two have kind of hung in there together in your friendship. I, I have to kind of wonder, is that something that you guys have, have felt has drawn you closer together as friends because you've both kind of taken those two different roads?

I'll let you answer this first, Ben.

Oh no, I don't actually like Matt. I would consider him a friend. No, I, I think you're totally right, and I think that it's also something that like to really like the show, uh, we— you need to embrace that aspect of it. So I'd say most of our listeners are Protestant. Uh, we do have some people listen who are Catholic. Um, but I can always tell, like every now and then, you know, you get the email from somebody who will either want to argue about why I shouldn't be Catholic or warn Matt to not fall to my Catholic wiles or whatever. And it's always like, oh, that person's not gonna really like the show whether they listen for a long time or not. They're not gonna like the show, not because you have to be even open to becoming Catholic to like the show, but I think that you have to be willing to embrace that dialogue. You have to be willing to embrace that. And I think we have listeners who I know are devoted Protestants, like not even remotely on the fence of considering ever becoming Catholic, or even where, like with your story, Rick, where that was kind of this possible path for them, but have recognized that there's something here they can grow from, recognize that there's a value in, in hearing about it and learning from it and growing from it. It's like those are the people who are going to stick around and really get something out of the show. Uh, the people who, uh, kind of have, you know, allergic to anything even resembling Catholicism, they might listen for a while, but they're probably not going to be too happy, which is entertaining in its own way.

Yeah, I've grown a lot in the sense of my understanding of what it means to be a Catholic. I think I was— I didn't— I wasn't raised in a Christian home, so by the time I started hearing the different theological conversations from the Protestant point of view, I was taught basically that it was rare to find a Catholic who was a true Christian, and I don't believe that anymore, of course, but that, that's what I was raised. And in fact, I worked at a Christian bookstore here locally in the Twin Cities, and I remember there were, of course, different sections. You got Christian living and parenting and marriage. There was a world religion section, and we would put— they had us, as we're putting the books on the shelves, anything that was a specific, specifically Catholic book would be placed into world religions rather than you know, around maybe Christian living or something like that. So all that to say, I did have some, um, preconceived ideas about what it meant to be a Catholic. When Ben became a Catholic and I had a chance to just ask him questions here on the show and in real life, I, I think I learned a lot about, um, how, you know, there are, there are two different, uh, parties, you could say, but there's there is a unity there that I, that I really long for. Uh, so I, I think that maybe that's what I've learned the most about, is just, uh, the importance of unity in the church and, and understanding that, understanding more about, uh, I guess just what I've been saying, what it means to be a Catholic. And it's not totally opposite of being a Christian, which I mean, not, not totally, you know what I'm saying? I mean, like 30%, maybe like 20 25. No, but you know, I mean, Ben, I, I don't know how much you want to go into it, but even you, before you were Catholic, I feel like either from family or friends, when you, when you became Catholic, you had people in your life that kind of felt that way, right? Like, oh yeah. And so I'm sure that was, that was a tough one.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's— there's some conversations that weren't fun. It's like when you get the listeners who send in the, the dumb email, which I, I— you just laugh at it, move on with your life. You don't have that option with with family.

But, you know, I, I, do you think I, you and I have never talked about this, Ben. I, do you think we've gotten closer because like we've walked this road together? Maybe. I don't know.

Yeah, maybe. I think so. I think that, I mean, I think certainly the show has been an important part of that journey for me, being able to process it and, uh, work through it and express it. Like, you know, not to jump the gun to the, the other question. Rick, but certainly, like, in another life I'd be a teacher, you know, I say that. And so being able to teach on that, to share that, and all of that is really important to me. And I think that it also was a solidifying factor in that conversion. Not to say that I would have stopped being Catholic if it wasn't for the show, but I don't think that it would have solidified in the same way if it wasn't for what we do here.

I was just thinking, I, I think I might have a regret in our friendship, and this is a real legitimate thing. Oh my God, I don't think we've ever talked about— I, at some point, Rick, or early on, I started realizing most everything that we talk about is good quality material for the podcast. And so I started saying, well, wait, before you talk to me about that, let's— right, let's be recording, or let me get the recorder on, or I would— if we were going to a movie, I'd bring a mini recorder so we could record in a parking lot before we saw a movie or do our review after the movie. So all that to say, Ben, this is my confession to you. I think, like, I wish that we had more time that was separate from the podcast where we could just be friends that hung out that didn't have to be podcast.

Well, you don't do that anymore, but I'd say that you got, like, when on this exact topic, like, the fact that you did that, you got the moment where I told you I was becoming Catholic, which is a pretty cool thing. That is a cool episode.

But in case listeners don't know, I was recording as Ben walked into the room when he was going to tell me this behind the scenes before we started recording. So then eventually I was able to post the moment that he told me on there. So yeah, I do agree that that was a cool episode. I think I wish that I hadn't put us in a position where everything we did had to be podcast related. Like, I'd like to just hang out with you and have nothing to do with the podcast. And I feel like at this point with our family commitments, we're basically— that's true— all in. It's much more difficult now since we started 10 years ago. You, you only had 2 kids in 2011, right? Or 1, 2 kids in 2011. I had zero. I got, over the course of the podcast, I got married and have 3 kids. You've added, I have 6. Yeah. So I think because of family commitments, that also made a difference. But yeah, I feel so right now I see Ben more than any other friend I have, but it's 100% podcast related. Every Tuesday night we get together, we spend 2 hours together and then maybe talk throughout the week through Facebook or text.

Well, that's true. That sounds sad when you put it that way.

I know, that's what I'm saying. That's why, that's why I'm saying it's kind of a regret. I wish that we had more. I think that over the years, I wish that we had focused not just on the podcast. So maybe that's what I'll say.

You know, if we hung out outside the podcast, we'd start talking about something. I know. And inevitably, we would want it to be on the podcast. That's what I'm saying. 100% what would happen.

So listeners, if you're starting a podcast or if you've been doing a podcast, take time to really build a relationship outside of the box. Or go with somebody you don't really like. It's like when you tell people that are married to also date. Don't just raise your kids and do life together. I mean, you should go out on dates. We need to do more outside of the podcast dating.

I'm willing, but I'm not going to put out on the first date.

Why? Why do you have to do that?

I'm censored. I didn't get too dirty.

Alright, Rick.

Sorry. Well, on that note, well, let's go to the last question that I had. That's actually pretty excellent answers. And as I think about that, and how many of us actually do have friends that we see regularly, you know, 2 hours a week? That's actually a pretty good time commitment in our life every single week. And that's actually a pretty great friendship, I think, even if you are on microphone. And those are some good quality conversations that you had.

So let's just— One day we'll just have no listeners.

Everyone will abandon us.

Then we can catch up on us.

Yeah, that's right. Well, let's kind of go into this as our last question tonight. And again, I appreciate both of you so much for taking some extra time tonight to let me celebrate with you, because I do celebrate your show and your 10 years together. And it's meant a lot to me and to get to share in this with you tonight. And both of you have meant a lot to me over the years, but I am grateful that you're still podcasting, and I'm grateful to be able to still be listening to you after 10 years. But why do you still do it? Why do you still podcast after 10 years?

My answer is going to be not as interesting after that big heartfelt, uh, confession, but I'll just say my— I've always been interested in multimedia type activity. I remember As a kid, I had a little tape recorder and I would— I'm talking about like 10 years old— I would do, um, I remember I had a sister that was born when I was 10 and I had a— like I did almost an audio documentary, like, on July 28th at 11:10 my sister Kim was born. And so, I mean, I— this is when I was a kid. I— in high school I started making spoof songs, you know, in the vein of Weird Al, uh, Yankovich. Is that how you say that name? Yeah, uh, so, and then going into college, I— my, my degree was in, um, it was called media communication, so broadcast. I would have been interested in getting into radio or video editing or things like that. I never did get into that field. I, I still sometimes think I'd be interested, although now it's been so long I'd have to be totally retrained on the, the modern tools for those industries. So to answer your question, Rick, I think that this does, uh, help Yeah, it's kind of an outlet for me in that area that I've been interested in since I was a kid. But also just the— people have all sorts of different hobbies, and this happens to be the hobby that I have that is pretty much the one thing I do that is not family related.

Okay. Yeah, I'd say for me, it's an outlet. Like I said, I'm kind of a natural teacher. I have at various points in my career had more of a professional outlet for that, and sometimes not. Um, so this is kind of in the consistent way to, to get that out. But I think the big thing for me is that we still have something to say. Um, if I felt like we didn't have something to say— not every episode, you know, some episodes are just funny or, or dumb or whatever, and, and, and those are fun. Uh, but truly having something to say, like on our uncensored feed right now, we're doing a 16-part read-through of Moby Dick. And it's— we don't have tons of people on our Patreon, but the fact that we're like bringing people who've never read Moby Dick, who never would have read it, who, who never even considered reading it, and we're not just reading it with them, but it's making this, this profound literary experience. And I think the feedback we've gotten, it's just been universally, uh, huge of people just like raving about what this show has been, uh, meaning the Moby Dick read-through specifically for them. Like, that's just one example, but we have something to say. Uh, I think that if we ever got to the point where I felt like there's nothing else to say or we're just repeating ourselves— not that we, we of course come back to regular themes and topics and all of that— but if we ever got to the point where it just felt like there's nothing less to say, I think that would be the time to be done. But I don't think we're there.

You know, it's funny, Ben, that you say that you're a teacher because I tend to be a learner. I love education. I love education. I, I, uh, like if I had time, I'd be happy to do more master's level classes or even get my doctorate someday. Uh, and so I do feel like I'm learning from you a lot. Uh, you, uh, you bring different topics and different, uh, you know, when it comes to philosophy or theology to the table, I, I enjoy talking through that. Or if you talk about books, I would have fallen into that camp of I probably would have never read Moby Dick myself. I never thought of doing it. I love what I'm learning through that. But there's been lots of movies, TV shows, books that I've been exposed to through the course of doing this podcast.

So, or even just ideas like, Rick, did you hear our Kooky Christmas episodes? Uh, yes, I did. Okay. So that's, that's like the perfect blend for me of interesting and fun because like for people who didn't listen to them, it was, uh, a series of conspiracy theory, weird episode. So we did lizard people and, and we did reincarnation and, and a few other things like that. And I, like, I feel like those episodes, if you kind of took the two poles of the Sci-Fi Christian of funny, fun, entertaining, and then scholarly, interesting, thought-provoking— I love that series because I thought it really captured both of those. Yeah.

Yeah. And I know, I know we're heading towards a wrap-up, but I'll just quickly say the show has evolved, and I think that also helps us to continue going on. If you look at season 1 versus season 11, which we're in right now, two different types of shows. And our, our, the way we communicate to each other is differently. The type of topics that we discuss are different than what we would've done 11 years ago. So you can see a progression from year to year where it, we change the show up. Uh, we have different, uh, segments that we stick with for a while and then we just drop for no reason. And then we kind of remember them 5 years later.

The, the Stanley quote of the week. Yeah. Stanley, if we were still doing that right now, it would be so contrived. We did it and it was funny and we enjoyed it, and then we just kind of let it die.

Yeah, take that, science. Yeah, same thing. Yeah, so there's— so yeah, I think the show is always changing, and so that helps us just keep on going because it's sort of like we're starting over, but it's a gradual— right, gradually continually changing. Yeah, it's—

and it's a lot harder to get quotes from Stan Lee these days. That's true, that's way too soon. Oh man. Well guys, this has been a real joy, and I just want to say again congratulations on, on 10 great years, uh, of the Sci-Fi Christian Podcast. Uh, you, you don't know what you have meant to me over the years, both of you. And you know, Ben, you have, uh, you have, have personally touched my life in so many ways. Uh, you helped me with the writing of my first and really at this point only book. I hope I have another book in me one of these days to come out, but the book on the Psalms that I wrote, you were so instrumental in that. Um, and it was fun to get to hang out with you in Chicago, and even the Sci-Fi Christian Storytime that came out of staying in Gilly's basement, which was—

yeah, listen, staying in that basement, you want to talk about ways to bond in friendship outside of your sci-fi Christian podcast. We just need to take a trip to the basement with those creepy dolls.

I have learned it'll be a hotel from now on, forever and ever.

If you get an offer of a free room, there might be a reason it's free.

That's true. And Matt, even though we have never actually done a face-to-face meetup, I just have felt, uh, such a kinship with you over the years. And every time that we've got to podcast, it has been such a pleasure and on this show or your show or even on the Real World Theology podcast. And I just feel like we've had such rich conversations that I've been so grateful every time. And both of you, I'm just so proud of the work that you have done. I feel like even though I'm a listener each week, I feel like in some ways I'm a part of your conversation just by getting to listen in through, I guess, putting you in my earbuds each week whenever I'm jogging or, or just listening at my desk, whatever I'm doing. So, um, I'm certainly glad that you've put in the work and, and done 10 years of, of, uh, the Sci-Fi Christian, and I'm wishing you 10 more and, and beyond that. So thank you for letting me have the chance to celebrate with you on the Voices in My Head podcast here this week, and, uh, hope we can do it again in the future and, and not wait for another 10 years down the road, because I know you guys have got some more great episodes ahead here. So as we—

We love talking about ourselves. It's one of our favorite topics. Yeah. And we'd be happy to come on any time.

And we really, we only made it through season 3, and we've never done a full retrospective on each year of the Sci-Fi Edition. So yeah, feel free to have us back later this year to talk through seasons 3 through 11. That's fair.

We only got through a couple there.

But Rick Lee James, we really appreciate you. You're one of our— our friend, also a top listener. So there's that, that, uh, reward for you.

Well, maybe an award. Yeah, there's no award or reward.

How about let's say top listener of—

I think what Matt's trying to say is we appreciate you.

All right, I started with that. Let's give them the May 2021 top listener of the month.

We don't want to piss off Brian.

Yeah, he's had it last month. Okay, that's fair.

So, so I'm just saying We love Rick. I know, but has he started a fan site? That's true. Has he started a fan site of us?

Yeah. If you want to check out our fan site, Rick, you got to go to sfc.blue. It's awesome. Oh, it is awesome.

Well, you know, I'm not going to probably start a fan site, but I do like you guys an awful lot.

We like you too. Thanks for asking us. You know what? Fan of the year.

Fan of the year. I can't go that far. I'm sorry. But, you know, thank you for asking us on and celebrating with us. We're having a fun time celebrating 10 years of podcasting, and we really appreciate you having us on to talk about it.

Well, it's It's been a real pleasure. Well, as I say to my guests each week, Matt and Ben, thank you for being some of the Voices in My Head this week.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, follow my blog, and even schedule me for a concert or a speaking engagement. Better yet, even a book signing in your neighborhood. You can find all that and more at rickleejames.com. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, the more visible this podcast will be online. And now for the benediction: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, —so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. God bless you, and thank you for listening to Voices in My Head.