Episode 435 - Dale Baker - The Maudlin Fee - Voices In My Head ( The Rick Lee James Podcast)

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Thank you so much for listening.

Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, a songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more with friends, colleagues, and sometimes just by myself. Now make sure to Please do let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes or by tweeting at me @RickLeeJames on Twitter. And please join my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. And by the way, in case you're interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay. Where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the voices in my head. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of Voices in My Head.

Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I'm your host Rick Lee James, and I'm so glad that you can be back with us again this week for another what I know is going to be a great conversation. Dale Baker is with us here today. Dale is an old friend of mine that honestly I haven't talked in many years, probably close to 20 years. It's not because of anything Dale did. I love Dale a lot. It's just that I moved away and I haven't really had a chance to talk to him that much. He lives in North Carolina near where I used to live. He's a musician. I'm a musician, uh, but our paths just haven't crossed that much over time. He's done great work for a lot of bands over the years. Chances are if you've been walking in a grocery store lately or in an elevator or in a car, you've probably heard Dale playing at some point. Songs like Kiss Me or There She Goes from Sixpence None the Richer— that's Dale playing drums on those tracks. You may have heard him at some point playing with, with Over the Rhine. You may have heard him with Big Star when he was on tour. You may have heard him with a number of other bands over the years, or you may have heard him with his own band, which he goes by the artist name The Modlin Fee. He's here with me today to catch up a little bit and for me to be able to showcase some of his music here on the show. And I'm so glad that we just had this chance to catch up and to have a chance to visit and to be able to share the music with my podcast listeners today. So Dale Baker, aka The Modlin Fee, welcome to Voices in My Head.

Thanks, Rick. It's so good to see your face and to hear your voice and to catch up. So, uh, this is a lot of fun, and I'm glad that, uh, uh, that I'm here. So thanks for having me on.

Well, it's really good to see you today. It's, it has been some time, but honestly, it's, it's one of those things that it doesn't— now that we're talking, it doesn't feel like it's been that long, uh, because we used to have these conversations, um, in North Carolina. Just to catch the listeners up, I lived in Burlington, North North Carolina, which I would say by interstate is maybe 45 minutes or so, something like that, from Durham. I'm trying to remember. And oftentimes on my day off, I used to drive over, uh, to, to near where you live, to the Duke University campus. And a lot of times I would spend time at Duke Chapel there. Well, we ended up having a mutual friend, my professor Steve Hoskins, who was one of my— still one of the best professors I ever had at Trebek University. And it turns out. He was coming to visit because he was doing something at my church, and I brought him over, I think, to visit you, and, and he was having breakfast with you, and they ended up— the three of us had breakfast one morning, I think, is what happened, uh, when I was taking him back to the airport or something. And, uh, just somewhere in there we connected. And so every now and then on, on Thursdays, on my day off, I'd come over and hang out with you a bit.

Yeah.

And we'd play guitar together sometimes. Um, mostly I would talk, but what I remember more than anything anything other than you just being one of the coolest guys I'd ever met, an amazing drummer and musician. I remember I was having a rough time at the church I was at. It was just— I was just going through a difficult period in my life, and you were just somebody that was such a support for me. And in ways you probably don't even realize, just being able to hang out with you and be able to just have somebody to just kind of go, you know what, I'm, I'm just hurting a little bit right now, you know, I don't know where else to turn, and just to have that listening ear. So I really haven't had a way in all these years to just reach out and say thank you. So as much as anything today, as we start, I guess I want to start by saying thank you for, for being that kind of person that was just there for me all those years ago as we start today, because you, you really were there for me in some big ways back then, and a lot.

So, man, Rick, thank you so much. That's really kind of you to say that. I'm glad that that I could be there for you in that way. It's always interesting to me how I feel like the times that we're used— this doesn't happen all the time— but I feel like the times when I've had people tell me, "Oh hey, you really spoke into my life," or "You blessed me," or "God really used you," or whatever they say, The times where I can't remember what I did are usually more impactful than the times where I'm like, yeah, no, I was totally trying to minister to you there. I had an agenda, you know, you know, God told me to, like, tell you this or whatever. Like, uh, I like how, how sneaky that is, you know. So if you know that, that, um, God can work through us in ways that sometimes we're not aware of, you know.

Yep, um, that's true. Sneaky might be, might be the best way, uh, to do it. So no, there, there was a real ministry of presence there for sure. Well, you know, going in into that from there, um, we, we had this connection with music, and I always appreciated what, what a great musician you were, and, um, the times that I got to see you play. I, I always enjoyed that and, and got to hear you play. And, um, you were, you were learning guitar at that time, and so you were just kind of beginning in the process. And so I would bring my guitar from time to time. And you've really progressed over the years, you know, as a, as a musician, both as a, uh, I mean, you were a musician at the time for sure, amazing powerhouse musician, but as a guitar player you got even better as time went on, which that's not something everybody can say, you know. You can— not all Drummers are also great on other instruments as well. And you became quite a good singer-songwriter, you know, um, and you have this real, um, knack with words. I, when I listen to your music, and I always hate to compare people to other artists because then I'm afraid they'll go like, I don't like those artists very well. But when, when I listen to The Modlin Fee, which everybody listening, I want you to check out the Modlin Fee online, and we'll have links on, on the podcast. But there is this real kind of folksy feel to it that it falls somewhere for me when I'm listening between like Tom Petty and Sufjan Stevens. Like, it's, it's somewhere on the gamut of that, and it's, it's hard for me to classify, um, maybe because it's not derivative of either of those two guys by any means, um, but there's just something about the, the soulfulness and the feel. And, and there's this stylistic feel and something about the, um, the way you hang on a phrase sometimes. And, um, and then the, the way that, um, the interesting things you'll do with, with background vocals and things. They, they can get Sufjan-esque at times, which sometimes I feel like what Sufjan will do with instruments I can hear in, in vocals sometimes in, in the music and things with you. But yeah, it's, it's real interesting stuff. I enjoy it.

Oh, thank you. Yeah, I know that at the time that you and I were hanging out, I, I was, I, you know, there's been a thread throughout my life where I've wanted to be a songwriter, you know. I remember in high school showing a friend of mine like, hey, here's a lyric, and he's like, he looks at it and he goes, you know, there's been like 20 songs with that same lyric, right? I'm like, what? I thought I was original here. And so it was like, wah wah wah. And so like, I would like stop writing, right? And then I went to college, and I remember being in college, I'd go into the piano room, and I'm like, if I could write a song like Michael W. Smith, you know? So I'm just like sitting there and play these chords, and I could never get anything, you know? And then, uh, because I was there to study drums, not be a songwriter, uh, I didn't even know that was really a— yeah, just it wasn't a thing at this music school. Um, and then when I was in Sixpence um, you know, I would occasionally come up with an idea for a song, uh, and I would take it to Matt, who's the lead songwriter. And I remember being so excited, you know, hey, I think I got something here, let's— maybe we can make it into something. And then he'd be like, well, I— it's interesting that you just wrote a song because I just wrote a song as well, let me play it for you. And then it would be something like Kiss Me, and it's just like, oh, I have no no business trying this, you know. And then, uh, when we moved to Nashville, um, Sixpence had an affiliation with Word Records, and they had a stable of writers that you could— if you're an artist, you could write with them in a writer's room. So I was like, I'm in Nashville, I could— I get a chance to write with a, with a Nashville songwriter. So I remember going in with, uh, Andy Golohorn. Oh yeah, he's a great guy, right? And I'm like, I got some ideas, maybe you can help me flesh this stuff out, you know. And, uh, so I came up with this idea for a song and had words and all that. And he's like, here, let me work. That's really great, I like that. Let me, let me take it home and work on it. So he comes back and, uh, and, uh, he, he plays me the song and it doesn't have any of my words in it. It's got my title though. I'm like, this is amazing, this is a great song. So how does it work out? Like, are we co-writers or How do we— how does the business side of this work? He goes, no, I wrote this. Like, I just used your title. You can't copyright a title. I was like, dang it. So, oh dude, uh, so like every point along the way, you know, um, I'm wanting to move into what it would look like to be a songwriter. And I'd read books on songwriting, or I'd read books on writing. And so the, the idea of like a writer, like the whole path of taking an idea and turning it into a finished entity, you know, what does that entail? And so that's always kind of been in the back of my mind as I've made a career as a drummer. Um, and in the last few years, um, and so, you know, typically in the life of an artist, you get resistance like what I got, and that would increase the fire inside of you. So that you would push even harder to overcome whatever deficiencies you have in the thing that you want to do. And I did that in my drumming career, uh, you know, uh, but in my songwriting, not so much. And so in these last, you know, 10 or so years, it's just kind of become this thing where, um I've wanted to pursue it, you know, more wholeheartedly. And that's, that's kind of lined up with a lot of just self-development, self-reflective stuff that's going on. And I think, I mean, I also look back and see that my friends Jonathan and Amanda Noel, the Noels, there's the great songwriters that I knew back in Nashville, you know. However many years ago, but they moved. They, uh, Jonathan's a worship leader, and he, they moved to Raleigh, which is, you know, similar to Burlington, just on the other side of Durham. And, um, he and I started hanging out, and, uh, and it, you know, I think being with him, I remember he brought up that desire to be a songwriter again. And so, um, so I know that some of, some of the encouragement I got from him, him and his wife would host a group of us Rick Lee James, um, once a month for a while. And so we would each— it was a great sort of, uh, deadline, you know, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna hang out with my friends in a month, and will I have a new song to show them?

I don't know.

And so, so typically, you know, in the week before we would all get together, a song would show up.

Yeah.

And so it was a safe environment to kind of share share my songs and be encouraged. And so that's kind of— it's interesting, like the thread, like, you know, you knowing you 20 years ago and that desire to move into songwriting or to be a solo performer on some level, and then for it to take as long as it has for me to get something released or to create in that way. Um, it's been a journey. So, um, yeah, yeah.

Well, and it can be, it can be hard to, uh, to find your niche at some point and exactly who you are. Like, I look back at songs that I've written over the years, and, and especially back when we first met, and I— they're just songs I would just would never do again, you know, that I thought, but man, this was good. I liked those songs back then, and now I think like, I'm not even sure if I even agree with those you know, like lyrically, if even as a person I even agree with some of those things anymore, you know. It's kind of interesting the paths that you take as a, as a person, as a writer. Um, and then different people you meet, like you said, it's important to have like safe places to share, um, those songs. And I think sometimes what hinders us as writers is we don't often have a good safe environment to share new things where we can get like good constructive criticism too. Sometimes that makes so much difference when you have like someone you can share something with and they can not just give you praise on it but can like give you like, this is good and let me show you the parts of this I like, but let me, you know, approach this as if I was co-writing this with you and say, you know, this is how I would maybe tweak it. What would you think if we took it here? You know, and that's been like to me as a writer, things I've, I've valued so much when I've had people that lovingly critiqued me in a way that, that, that can— if you, if you hold on to your ego too tight, it can hurt at first because you think you're being attacked. But then, but then you realize, no, this person cares about me, and they ultimately care about the song, and they want it to be better. And I think what you're talking about with you know, finding that group of people where you can find a safe place to share a new song, you know, in an environment like that. Um, it actually can be such a good environment for new songs to grow. So I can totally see that it taking years to find an environment to where you feel like, hey, I'm starting to like flourish as a songwriter. And I think we see this sometimes as, you know, a lot of times, um I'll get my grandma before she passed away. This is, this is maybe a good example of this. Um, she got into painting, um, at the, at the end of her life, you know, in the last, I would say, 15, 20 years, and she became very good at it, you know. But to my knowledge, she never painted before then, but she finally found like an environment, and we've got all these paintings like in the family like through the years that she just finally like like, I'm gonna be a painter and I'm gonna do it, you know. And, and she figured it out because she found some place that nurtured that and, and helped her through it. So, I mean, I'm talking too much now, um, about all this, but I think it's, I think it's a good point you're bringing up though. Like, it takes as long as it takes, and, um, and, and I think it's a good lesson for everybody listening. Like, if you feel like you're at a place where you haven't you're not where you want to be, it's okay to, to, to keep growing, I guess is what I'm trying to say. Because we certainly are all at different places and different progress on our journey for sure, and we can keep growing from there.

Yeah, I think, you know, I look back at it, I think encouragement is a, is a big thing. And so the reason I became a drummer is because I got a lot of external validation for what I was bringing, you know, at a very young age. And so when I started writing songs, not so much external validation. And so the, you know, that desire to want to be good at something, and you take it to someone that you respect, you know, Nashville is not the place to go to write your first song.

It's true. That's the truth.

You gotta find— it's kind of like, you know, before you go to like a state school or a private university, maybe maybe just go to that technical college that's in your hometown. Like, start small and build on success, you know. And, um, so I think, you know, for me, I look back and I go, I was missing encouragement. Why didn't— why didn't I get the encouragement I need? You know, make it someone else's fault, right? But I also realized that I have a really tough internal critic, and so that internal critic would shut down any sort of sense of play You know, I feel like to create, we've got to get into a sense of play or a sense of like curiosity and just follow the muse wherever it's going to take us, even if we know, you know. And so the critic will be like, that's crazy, don't write a song about a tree, nobody does that. And then being able to push back to the critic going, no, we're going to write a song about a tree. Yeah, no, I'm, I'm definitely going down that path. And, but it's gonna suck. Yeah, it probably will. But I'm gonna write a song about a tree whether you like it or not, you know. And, um, and so learning how to kind of do that dance with my own internal critic. And, um, and some of that too, I've done my own work, but I also found a few years ago there was a, a friend of mine, Nate Fancher. He's a great guy. And another guy, David Dollar, who's a guitar player, songwriter. And we all formed a collective songwriting collective called The Great Promise. And so our goal was, hey, let's, let's start a band. How much time do we have? We're all busy people, we've got families, etc. And so we, we settled on— we pretty much only had 4 hours every week that we could carve out of our schedule. So, okay, that's it, we got 4 hours. So we are going to set some goals and, and left-brain this thing, uh, as best as we can. So instead of creating a band like we were when we were 16. We were creating a band as adults that know how the business works. And, um, and so we sat down for 4 hours every like Monday or Tuesday and we chipped away at an EP and we wrote songs together. And, um, working with them, uh, you know, the sort of the one of the songs from my— from the Modlin Fee record that I was putting out was— showed up at our first rehearsal and they're like, hey, does anybody have any songs? And I thought, man, I, I'm kind of in awe that I get to hang out with these two really great songwriters. They had both released records. I hadn't released anything. And, uh, and they're like, well, we didn't bring anything. Dale, you got anything? I was like, well, I've got two ideas, you know. And so I played them, uh, the demo of Why Don't We, um, and which is a song that just kind of— I was just messing around, having a good time, coming up with something. And my friend Nate was like, this is amazing, like, we should do this. And I started thinking they were just making fun of me and that it was a joke. And I just remember being in tears. We're, we're working on one of my songs that I wrote and it, it actually sounds good as a band arrangement. And the, the, the, the great promise that the three of us, our arrangement was different than the one that I put on my record. But, um, just getting that feedback. And that excitement from my bandmates of like, this is good, let's keep, let's chip away at this. Um, and also the collaborative nature of that group, just, it, it brought back to mind how much I enjoy creating music with other people. I enjoy creating projects or creative, um, uh, creative things with other people. I don't like I think I'm a better person when I'm around, when I get to bump up against someone else. So I love the brainstorming, I love the sharing of ideas. And, um, and so that experience with those guys, you know, brought back to me that joy of, you know, making music in a community, you know, even if the community is just 3 people. But, um, that I think that encouragement of sitting around and us all trying to write songs together, and I, you know, I might have two sentences that I could throw out on the table, and they were like, man, we love how you flip those words around. We like your alliteration. We like what you're bringing. We like that idea. And so we would just kind of riff on each, each other's ideas, you know, for 4 hours on a Monday. And I was like, okay, so this— I can kind of see what my strengths are as a songwriter, what I can bring to the table as far as a musician. And an arranger and a producer. Um, but I, but I don't think I can deliver it all. I don't think I'm a one-man show. Like, I need people around me to, um, to, to, to, to help me get it across the finish line, you know. And so, um, um, so I think encourage— yeah, all that to say that encouragement and a supportive community can go a long ways towards helping you achieve your goal.

Um, well, let me ask you, because I, I really like that song, Why Don't We, and it's one of my favorite Maudlin Fee songs. But you're saying there's another arrangement out there then?

There is.

That— so I haven't— I need to look that one up. Say again what the name of that?

Well, so it's like, you might be able to find us on, uh, Instagram, but it— the, the name of the band was The Great Promise.

The Great Promise. Okay.

Yeah.

And it lasted maybe a year, uh, and then Nate moved away, and then David— we all kind of just— I think Nate moved away and then David moved away. Uh, but some of that music, I think we were only able to get 3, uh, songs pushed out. But the idea was like, okay, start in January, we're gonna write from January until May, 4 hours a week. And whatever we've got at May, we stop writing and we start producing.

Okay.

So from May until August, we'll produce the songs that we've created. Okay. And then, uh, September to December, that will be when we release it. So we'll put on these different hats at different times of the year and we'll schedule this like a liturgical calendar so that we know, hey, it's May. Okay, we've stopped writing. I know you could still get great ideas, but we're not writing right now. We are producing, you know. And what if you took that idea and just rinsed and repeated it over, you know, 5 years, 10 years? You, you know, it's a, it's a super sort of left-brain OCD way of doing something, but it's like, well, if your idea is to produce music and you're having a hard time giving yourself a deadline because you don't have a label or a management team or anything. Like, how do you, how do you build in that structure? And so this was, this was a thought experiment that we were trying. It's like, well, let's just, let's plan it out. And, um, and, and we got 3 songs and a bunch of starters of other ones, but we produced 3 tracks. And I don't even know if they're available. Like, I can send you a link, but I don't know if you can play them or not.

I don't know. Yeah, that'd be— guys, if you could— that'd be fun to hear them sometime. Yeah. That would be neat to hear. Well, that's the, you know, that is the, the fun though. I've found for my own, you know, doing stuff independently too, I've had to kind of set deadlines for myself too, or at least try to. Um, and that's when I've probably become the most productive, uh, is, is when I've done that. Um, if, if I, if I just willy-nilly say, well, I'm, I'm gonna do it, it does just doesn't get done for me anyway. Like, I usually have to like Satisfied.

Yeah, there's something about that commitment, you know. And so having a deadline— or the other thing I've done really good at for myself is I'll just intentionally set up ways to embarrass myself. Uh, and so around the time that we were doing this Great Promise thing, I thought, wouldn't it be great to, uh— well, hey, I want to perform as a singer-songwriter, and I have a bunch of friends that are singer- songwriters, but they'll never ask me to play for them because I'm not good enough yet. Uh, there's plenty of other really great opening acts. I'm not one of them yet, but I, I need time in the saddle. So, uh, wait a second, I was in a famous band. Maybe my name— I can use my name as a reason for a show. Here, this is what I'll do here. This is a great idea. I'll come up with a concert that's, uh, you know, Dale Baker Dale Baker Presents. Okay, that's too boring. So I came up with Dale Baker's Big Ol' Night of Music.

Yeah.

And so I grew up going to all these country music shows back in Branson, Missouri, and it would be like these sort of variety shows of country music. So I was like, I'll just do one of my Branson shows. And because it's my show, I'm going to have my band, The Modlin Fee, be on the bill.

Right.

And then I'll stack it with all my other friends who have names, who have an audience and maybe, maybe some people will show up.

Yeah.

And, uh, and all while I'm doing that, I'm like, this is not gonna go well at all. Like, you're gonna be such a failure at this. It's gonna— this is not gonna go well. And, uh, but from that, you know, from setting up this one— I did it once in Raleigh and I did it once in Nashville. Um, you know, both times it it was like, what have I gotten myself into? And, but it was this, it was this commitment, like once it's on someone's calendar, and I've asked my friends, I'm, I get so invested that I can't pull out easily. So it's either, you know, keep walking in that direction or, or give up, you know, and it's like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I know I know what it's going to be like to give up. I don't know what the outcome is going to be like if I keep plowing forward. So I'm going to keep plowing forward and push through that anxiety. And what I found is that when I've done that, I look back on that time as like, I'm so happy and glad and proud. And I just think I'm the coolest guy, like for having done that. But in the moment, as it's happening, I am just a, just a mess. It's like, please take this away. I can't, I can't handle this stress. Like, uh, so it's this weird thing of like, I want to be a creative. I want to be an artist. I want to make music, but when I'm in the midst of it, yeah, it just doesn't feel right at all. Yeah. Um, and it's like, oh wait, I thought I would enjoy it, but it's, I don't, it's just such a weird dynamic. It's like, I enjoy it once it's created, but the, the The process of producing it and creating it and the drama that happens in the middle of that is always just— it's like, it's not like that in the movies. They go into the studio and everybody's happy and they do this thing and, you know, yeah, 15 minutes later the whole album's recorded.

Yeah, yeah.

Why isn't it that easy for me? Why is it so dang hard, you know?

Yeah, we've all— we've seen that movie Music and Lyrics with Hugh Grant and Drew Barrymore, and, you know, they, they go in and 10 minutes later they've got a demo. They get to the airport, the new artist records it and they're famous. Yeah, so that's how it works that way.

Yeah, yeah.

No, I, I chuckle as you tell that story because I, I know that I, I, I feel exactly that same way because I've, I've done that almost that exact scenario, um, with like renting out theaters and things and, and bringing in friends. And like I used to do, um, it's been well over 10 years ago now, I started doing, um, at New Year's Eve I, I did a couple of them in a row, the, the picking parties, the Rick Lee James picking party. And I'd bring in friends from Nashville and different places and come in and really overextended myself and just prayed I would sell enough tickets to, you know, do it. And, and I always did. I always came out with a couple hundred dollars in my pocket when it was done, you know. It was just enough to cover the theater expenses and just barely, you know, get by. Um, but that was such a help. But I— that panic you're talking about and sort of feeling in the moment like, oh man, this is too big. But it was such a learning moment. So yeah, I'm kind of laughing as you're telling that story because unless you've done it, like, you don't know what— it just feels like you've got the world on your shoulders, you know, kind of doing that kind of thing. Or like you said, when you're going into a studio and you're trying to figure out how to make that project work and, and figure it out with the budget that you have and the limited amount of time and the musicians that you have and the resources. So yeah, it's, it's, it's a whole other thing. And I'm sure a lot of musicians listening now are going, yeah, Yep, I know that feeling. I get it for sure. So it's—

there's a book I read several years ago, and they had these affirmations that you were supposed to just tell yourself, you know. And I was like, okay, um, it was, it was like a performance book. What's it was called? Oh, Effortless Mastery by Kenny Werner.

Okay.

Uh, and in that book, he's got these meditations and affirmations. And so one of the affirmations was is it's not hard, it's just unfamiliar. Everything is easy. The difference is it's just not familiar. And so I've used that in my teaching. I teach drum lessons and music to other people, but I've used that also for myself. It's like when you get into these situations where it's like, this is insane, I can't— how am I going to get through this? I was like, no, it's hard. I get it. You're under a lot of stress, but it's, it's not so much that it's hard. It's just unfamiliar. You just not use these muscles before. You know, this is a skill, putting on a show, producing a record, writing a song, learning how to play guitar. Those are all skills and we can all learn those skills. And I know there looks like there's some people that just magically were born to do that, but at the end of the day, it's still a skill and you can get pretty darn good. If you just commit yourself to learning that skill. Yeah, whether or not you're gonna be like a famous musician or whatever, we— I can't tell, you know, there's no guarantee on that, but you will get good if you become familiar with the thing that you want to do. And, and that, that started to change, just that, that phrase, it's not hard, it's just unfamiliar. And it's like, well, What things are familiar in my life? You know, it's like, well, my relationships, my friends. Uh, okay, so familiar, that, that means you spend time.

You—

so what you're saying, you spend time with the things that you love, you spend time with the people you love. So start thinking about your guitar playing as a relationship. Is that someone— is that a relationship you want in your life? Is writing a song— is that Is it worth your time to keep pursuing, um, you know, yeah, this person or this song or this idea or whatever? And it's like that, you know, flipping it around, it's like I don't have to be good, I just have to become familiar.

Yeah.

And it takes— it takes its judgment out of it. And as long as it's bringing me joy in the same way that my close relationships bring me joy, I just love hanging out with my friends and talking like I'm loving hanging out talking with you, Rick. You know, it's like, this is what I want from music, is this sense. And as we, you know, and the idea I think for me is like, the more you do it, the better you'll get. Of course, that's what they all say. But I'm not doing it from, you know, from a critical judgment. Am I going to make an A on the test sort of thing? I'm just doing it because I enjoy being in the moment. Being, you know, in the, you know, pursuing it, you know.

Yeah.

And it, and it feels— it kind of gets me back to, you know, when I first started playing drums, I would just sit at the drums and just play, not even thinking about time. It was just, it was just a place of joy for me, you know. Yeah. And so the songwriting and the performing and all this stuff is— I find that it's, it's a challenge and it's interesting to me. But I, um, as long as I can keep focusing on that, it's great. When I start to compare myself to my friends, uh, I come up short every single time, you know. So it's like, well, just, just keep at it. Maybe, maybe you'll, maybe you'll write a song, a good song, one of these days. But in the meantime, you're having a blast, and that's good. That's also good, you know.

Yeah, comparing ourselves to others, it's such a killer because you're, you're just never going to be that person you want to be. You're only going to be who you are always. And, uh, that— now that again, that doesn't mean— that doesn't mean you don't strive to get better. But man, I, I know that feeling so well of like, "Bah, but I wish I could write like that." And just, just a quick story about that in that vein, and then I actually do have a couple of questions I want to ask you before our time is up today. But, um, there— the city I live in, come to find out It's the hometown of Stephen Curtis Chapman's wife, so he comes back to this area quite a bit. And there's a lot of— I've never got to like meet him or anything, but there's a lot of mutual friends in the area. And, and somebody who I was talking to a while back— this is just, uh, to talk to what you were just saying about comparing yourself to other people, no matter what level you're at. Um, he was— he had come to town and a friend of a friend, they took him out like on a boat somewhere nearby here, just as like a— it was a holiday time. Um, so Stephen Curtis and a few other people are out on this lake nearby here, and they're just kind of hanging out. He had some downtime, and as they're talking, he's, uh, you know, talking a little bit about music. And Stephen Curtis says apparently to one of these people on the boat and says, 'If I could just write like Chris Tomlin, I just really wish I could write a good song like that,' you know. I remember thinking You know, the— from the dude who's won more awards than anybody else in his field, you know, like right now even he is saying like, I wish I could be like that guy, you know, or whatever. So I guess there's just not a point that any of us will get to where at some level we don't go like, I wish I could be that other person. Um, and yet— go ahead.

I think the takeaway is that you have a unique voice. There's only one of you ever in the entire history of everything, right? And so you have a unique voice just like everyone else has a unique voice. And so if pursuing the art of songwriting or drumming or whatever, the game, the goal is to, yeah, you got to learn your technique, you got to learn the skills, that's all really great, you got to learn to read and write essentially, but the fun part is that after you've kind of learned the rules, then what does your voice, what's your voice telling you? Like, and getting in touch with that and then trying to apply those rules to the thing that is uniquely your voice. And, you know, as you do it, it's like you're not gonna, you know, whatever. I remember hearing people say, you know, write 100 songs first before you even show anybody anything, you know. Like, it's just, it's rinse and repeat. And over time, you get familiar with the ways that you want to express yourself or the words that you want to say and and then as you learn the rules and you learn, you know, what's right and what's wrong, you can play around with those and, and, and then either justify your blatant, you know, rule-breaking of songwriting, you know, conventions, or realize, oh wait, that song could be better because I know now, I know what makes a song strong and or weak, you know. And so, um, so in a lot of ways, this, the Modlin V is my sort of master's project of me trying to become a better musician and to become more empathetic to the people I play with. Um, and, uh, and I love it. It's so much fun. It's so great.

Yeah. Well, well, one question that, that— let's, let's have you answer this one, uh, for the audience. The, the Modlin V is an interesting name, uh, for the band, first of all. So explain the, the name first of all, because I know a lot of people listening might be wondering about that.

So to sum it up, The Modlin Fee— Modlin, you can look it up on Wikipedia, and maybe I should do that before I try to explain what it is, but it's a sort of archaic or sentiment— overly sentimental is the word. Modlin. Modlin means overly sentimental. And so when I was coming up with a name for a band, I thought Modlin is a really great word in that I'm an overly sentimental person. I'm very idealistic. And so the Modlin fee— there's a longer story here, and I could tell you that one as well, but the short story that you're gonna get is the, the Modlin fee is the price you pay for being overly sentimental, you know. So when you care too much, you make choices, and sometimes those choices are not, not the best choices for those situations. And so when I look back over my life, I see my sense of justice and what's right, and I need to stand up to the man. Uh, that's what's gotten me in trouble. Like when I've gotten, you know, like, you know, in the movie, the small guy sticks it to the man and then it all works out in the end. Well, in reality, that— no, it doesn't work out that way. The little man goes away and you never hear from him again because he was an idiot for trying to take on the big man, right? Well, it's like if you want to stay in the arena, you might want to— yes, I get it, you need to stick it to the man, but there might be another way to go about that so you actually stay in the arena with the man, right? You get kicked out of the arena, you're no longer— you can't affect change at all, right?

Exactly right.

And so that's kind of, uh, there's another layer to the name Modlinfi, but it also reminds me of my desire to want to be vulnerable and to be present in this world and hearkens back to, you know, we've all got shame and we've all got stories that we're all trying to overcome. And it's worth the work to put yourself out there. And so when I look at the modeling fee, I'm reminded of all these things, you know, not all of them, but a big swath of things that used to bring me lots of shame. And now I look back at them and just kind of smile and go, well, that was, you know, you were making choices with the information, the best information that you had at the time. Choices with the information. What's the word? What's the phrase? Um, you were doing the best with the information that you had at the time, right?

There you go.

Um, and, uh, and some of it played out well, some of it didn't play out so well. And, uh, and so I was like, you know what, let's don't hide that. Let's don't hide, you know, the parts of you that you're ashamed of. Let's just pull it out there. And the modlin feel, but this great sort of play on words that encapsulates not only that, but it also— a lot of my songs are about, you know, I'm trying to write the perfect love song, you know, or I just want to write a good pop song, you know.

Yeah.

So, um, that, you know, I tend to kind of lean towards the sentimental.

Yeah.

Um, thoughts.

So that's good.

Yeah.

So the modeling fee, that's basically the price that you pay for caring too much. That's good. I like that a lot. That's really good. Um, and I think it's a cool, um, it's a cool story behind the band, and it's neat to be able to like tell the tale behind it and everything too. Um, so I, I want to ask you, and I, I feel like I'd love to talk for a lot longer, but unfortunately, uh, life goes on and got a son to pick up from school and all kinds of things going to keep me from doing that. But Um, but I do want to ask you this because you're, you're a person who's done a lot in your life for sure. And, um, you're such a talented musician. And, and not just such a talented musician, you're a great photographer. Um, I remember seeing a lot of your pictures in the past. Um, you're a person who likes to read. I remember that about you, and you even shared some books with me that I still have in my possession over the years. Yeah, and I've hung on to them. I remember you loved Henry Nowlan, and, you know, I liked him a lot too, but I think just talking about Nowlan with you, you know, several times made that deepen for me, you know, in different ways. So I think over the years, I mean, we just naturally change and grow as people for sure, and things that we one time thought like, this is it, this would be success if I could just get here. Yeah, different places in our life, maybe we start to think of that differently and what that means and things that become more important. I sure know that, like, when I became a father, my whole perspective changed, you know, the whole world, everything became a little more dangerous in some ways, like, no, don't touch that, don't, you know, like You know, uh, the whole world, you just start looking at things all differently. So, um, I guess my question I wanted to ask you, you know, at the stage of life you're in, because you're, you're playing different music and you've kind of been at the, at the heights of things, and you, you've done, you've done the independent artist thing, you've done the thing where you've played the big shows, you've been on TV, you've played coffee houses. I mean, you've done everything pretty much in the music world. Um, how would you, just as a person, as Dale Baker, how do you define success in your life right now? And, and what does that feel like for you? I mean, what, what do you look for out of life? And, and you just say, I'm successful if I just have this?

I think, uh, man, that's a good question. That's, that's really great.

Nothing like making you go deep on that last one.

Oh no, I love it. I love I love this stuff, man.

I live for this.

Um, yeah, I would say, uh, so I'll say two things. I think success for me is being present in this moment and in this moment and in this moment. Yeah. So can I be here right now with you, uh, talking and not be thinking about what happened yesterday or what happened 10 years ago or what my goals are for the future. I think, you know, I think that's what success is. Can I be fully in this moment and content?

Yeah.

Or I don't even know if contentment— I think that adds another level to it. Can you just be here and whatever you're feeling, can you feel it? Yeah, and where do you feel it? Can you be aware of what's going on right now? And as I do that, I start to tear up and things start to get a lot quieter, and the things that are really important start to show up, and the things that are not really important start to fall away. And, uh, so whenever I can get back to this that place of quiet. I'm doing it right now. I can't believe it. Thanks, Rick. Uh, it's going to be okay, whatever it is. It's going to be okay because you— we have this moment right here. Um, so that's— I think that's probably success for me right now. Um, I know that in the past I used to, you know, attach certain meaning to certain goals, you know. And, and now I can see that there might be some validity in doing that, you know. That might be— I'm gonna, I'm gonna feel really good about myself if I can release my record, you know. You know, I know that was a goal, like, you know, I was grieving the thought that I might not actually get these songs done, you know. And with any creative project, you get to about like the like the last quarter of the project where you're trying to push this thing out and there's always a chance that it's like it's not going to happen. Like that last, the last 10 yards, it just seems like it's the hardest to get that thing over the finish line or whatever it is. So that resistance, being able to push through that resistance, it wasn't, that was a goal. Like I just want to do this because it sounds like a fun goal, and whatever I get from it, I don't really care. I just want to do it just to say I've done it, you know. And, um, but am I successful, like, for that? Like, none of this matters, right? So I mean, ultimately, right, like, we're gonna die here, you know, before too long, you know. Hopefully we'll get another 50, 60 years out of it, but, uh, You know, there's plenty of people that thought they were the end-all be-all, but we can't remember their names. You know, they wrote some amazing books, but some of those books aren't being published anymore.

Yeah, right.

So, so what's really important? And I think it's like being, you know, I think being present, you know, being here now, I think is probably, probably That's probably how I'd answer that question.

I hear ya. Nothing wrong with that answer at all. I think that's a good one. Well, I think what I'd like to do as we close the show today, I'm gonna close it by playing one of your tracks, whichever one you decide you're gonna send me over email as we close our conversation today. Do you have a favorite song that you'd like to close the show with?

Yeah, I'll close it with this one. So there's two that are, are kind of special. But, but the, the one that you're going to play is called An Acorn— I think it's called An Acorn, A Seed, or maybe Acorn and a Seed.

Okay.

And the, the premise of the song came out of, um, years ago someone turned me on to Richard Rohr's book called Falling Upward.

Oh yeah.

And I signed up for Richard Rohr. He's got like daily emails that he sends out And I really got into reading those emails and they really impacted me on a, you know, as a Christian, he helped me see where my faith fit into the larger picture and really helped ground some of the doubts and the fears that I had about my faith and questions and stuff like that. And so in some of these emails, he mentioned Julian of Norwich and she mentions that she was holding a nut, an acorn in her hand, and she said, "This is everything that is. Here's this little seed. Everything that is, is in the palm of my hand." And around that time, I had a friend who was posting on Facebook about her mother who was going through cancer and was in the process of passing away. And I wanted to write something that would honor this woman's life. And that would also— I felt, you know, a lot of emotion for my friend. She was being really vulnerable on Facebook. And, and so you can listen to the song and not hear any of that in there. But in the process of writing the song, they're probably like 4 pages about this woman's cancer diagnosis, you know, that I just I just threw away because it didn't serve the song. And so at the very end, I came up with this really simple song that's almost too simple and probably isn't good enough to be a real song. But the agenda I'm pushing is, is it? But is it? Like, is it good enough in its simplest form? Can this song work? And so I made a demo of this thing and I I felt really good about it. I played it for a friend of mine, and, uh, we were in his pickup truck listening to it, and he just— he had an emotional reaction to this thing. He was like, oh my God, dude, you totally did it! This is amazing, you know? And so his encouragement, his visceral reaction to this demo I made of the song, uh, really encouraged me to, to do more of these songs. And so his encouragement led to me actually finishing a whole project that I could say is a collection of songs under the banner of the Modlin Fee. And, and so that's why you're going to play An Acorn and a Seed, because it was the song that kind of started this whole process of we're doing this, we're going to have a band, we're going to call it the Modlin Fee, and we're going to release these songs on Spotify.

So that's terrific. Well, that's great. Well, we are going to close our time out together by doing that, then we're going to play An Acorn and a Seed. But I want to let all listeners know, you can find out more about Dale by going to his website at themodlinfee.com, or I'm sure if you just look up Dale Baker and maybe even put Dale Baker drummer, you'll find him pretty easily that way for sure. There's so much more to find out about Dale, and it's been a real pleasure getting to catch up with you today. I'm so glad that you were able to make some time and come on the show. And as I say to my guests every week, thank you for being one of the voices in my head this week.

Thank you so much, Rick. I'm so honored to be here. Thank you so much.

An acorn, a seed, everything we need. This is everything that is. It's all here right now. Everything that is in the palm of a hand. An acorn, a seed, everything we need. This is everything That is. This is good. This is grace. Everything is here in its right place. And in Corner C, everything we need. This is everything that is. Being here right now. Holding on tight. While I'm still letting go. The beauty, the goodness, I'll always see in you. You are everything that is. Oh, you are everything that is. All right here, all right now, everybody sing in your own space. This is everything that is. This is everything that is. This is everything. In a corn seed, everything we need. This is everything that is. This is everything.

¡Gracias!

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, follow my blog, and even schedule me for your concert or a speaking engagement. Better yet, even a book signing in your neighborhood. You can find all that and more at rickleejames.com. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, the more visible this podcast will be online. And now for the benediction. May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. God bless you, and thank you for listening to Voices in My Head.