Episode 463 Unraveling The Lie-Knot with Sheryl Giesbrecht Turner

Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, a songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more with friends, colleagues, and sometimes just by myself. Now make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes or by tweeting at me @RickLeeJames on Twitter. And please join my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. By the way, in case you're interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the voices in my head. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of Voices in My Head. Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I'm your host, Rick Lee James, and I'm so grateful to all of you who are listening in today. All of us are products of our upbringing and experiences, and whether we realize it or not, have come to believe things about ourselves that aren't true. Those false beliefs hold us back. They are like recordings that constantly play in our minds, condemning us, accusing us, shaming us, and blaming us. Is it possible to silence these thoughts that have tied us in knots for so long? And can we ever find peace? Well, in her newest book, Unraveling the Knot— the Lie Knot, Cheryl Giesbrecht Turner dives into these false beliefs that hold us back. Cheryl served as Focus on the Family's Pastor's Wives columnist for 4 years. Hundreds of her columns, magazine, and devotional articles have appeared in Focus on the Family magazine, Just Between Us, Discipleship Journal, CCM, Walk Through the Bible's Indeed, and Tapestry Publications. Cheryl has stopped by the podcast today for a visit, and I'm so grateful for it. Cheryl, welcome to Voices in My Head.

Thank you.

Well, it's so good to have you today, and I really am interested in the conversation that we're about to have because your book sounds fascinating. And I'm just going to dive right in today and ask the question, because the book is called Unraveling the Lie Knot. So help our listeners understand just a little bit right off the top. What is a lie knot that you write about? About?

Well, a line is a traumatic event that may or may not be processed. And because the word of God tells us in Hebrews 12:1-2 that we're supposed to throw off everything and the sin that so easily entangles us, because we're influenced by our past, often we don't know that we're deceived. We don't know that something's holding us back until something happens like what happened with me. I was a young mom, I became depressed, and I didn't know that there were lots of issues that the Lord was bringing up, I guess, if you will, that really I had to pay attention to it. So it's a— maybe a traumatic event or something that is holding you back, knotting you up, if you will, to the point that you're in bondage.

Wow, that's a really great description. And I think the knot, knotting you up, that really sticks with us in our image. And I think we can all relate to that and the way that these things happen to us. So what a perfect metaphor, I guess we could say, as we begin this conversation today. So help us understand how we can begin to maybe uncover some of these lie knots in our lives. You had just mentioned a moment ago you were a young mother and some of these things were tying you up. I have a feeling that could be the case for many listeners today, but there's probably a number of things that we don't even understand, or maybe even lies that are causing this thing. So how would you help us first of all begin to kind of identify the end of our lie knots, so to speak?

Thank you. So, um, that is what I talk about as an anatomy of a lie. And so, um, one thing that we As we slow down and think about these things, it really does take a real intentional decision to do that because we don't realize that behind the lies that we believe, there are fears. One of the fears is that, "Well, I'm not sure if I really want to do this right now because it's going to take a lot of work." Some evidences of "lie knots" are people that are depressed. Maybe overly anxious and being especially driven by fear or even stopped by fear. You know, there's so many people right now because we're being fed fear from every angle that are literally afraid to go out of their houses because of— you fill in the blank, you know, because of the so many things that we could catch or that could happen. Or even if a person's mind is filled with negative thoughts It may be that, um, kind of that you just don't know that there could be a different way of, of living besides feeling that you're condemned, you're unworthy. Some people that are unable to sleep for an hour at a time, that's a person that could need some assistance with this. These are areas of deception, and one thing that the enemy, you know, he's called the father of lies, and that's what a lie knot is. It's a humongous knot that has really tripped us up, held us back, captured us, and we don't even realize that we're having it because the father of lies, that's his thing. He keeps us deceived because when you're deceived, you don't know it. And that's why as we're encountering God's Word on a daily basis, and as believers, we really have to be in God's Word every day so that we know what God tells us, because that's the only way that we can come against the deceiver, the enemy, the father of lies, because that's the only language that Satan knows is lying. And when he keeps us deceived, then we can't think that, well, there's, there's nothing else that I can do. I'm a victim, or I don't know if I really want freedom because it's going to be too hard to get there. Or something like somebody says, well, I'm not sure if I really will be happy without fill in the blank— fear or shame or unworthiness. Even though you think it could get better, you just are not sure about— sometimes you get used to your pain, and for so long you used to cope with, and you develop coping mechanisms. And that really is what we— when we have other things like some of the things I, I mentioned— anxiousness, depression, negative thoughts, deception, shame— those are all ways of coping with a lie that hasn't been processed correctly.

Wow, wow, that's fascinating, the way that we, we carry those things around in us, and, and all based on lies that either we are told from the outside or we tell ourselves, you know, that many times. Fascinating to hear that. You know, one aspect of this that, as I was reading about your book— and I'll let my listeners know, I haven't had a chance to read it for myself yet. As I was telling you, school has gotten a little bit in the way. But one thing that I wanted to ask you about that kind of hit me is like, well, that's a new revelation to me, I guess, in thinking about this. And the idea that unforgiveness might be tied up in some ways with these lies that we tell. And I think when I think of forgiveness or forgiving somebody, we're often thinking about, oh, that person did something to me and I'm having trouble holding a grudge. But I don't know that I have ever made the connection of the idea of unforgiveness maybe based upon a lie that that we're receiving or things like that. I wonder if you might be able to help us understand a little bit of that, of like how to find freedom through forgiveness based on unraveling some of these lie knots.

That's a great question, and really it goes deep. Uh, so the first lie that the enemy tangled me up with was as a young child I was bullied. I was bullied by some women in our— young girls actually— in my ballet class.

Wow.

And from that, I began to feel— they told me that things that were not true, these labels I accepted as my identity. These things were that I was fat, that I didn't fit into their group, that I would never be like them because I was too clumsy. And that's why my mom put me in the ballet class, was to overcome my clumsiness. But those labels I believed. So I— when I began to forgive and let God, uh, forgive those. I, I actually asked God to help me forgive those who had hurt me because it affected me during my elementary years, even into my junior high years. That's when I became a juvenile delinquent as a drug user, and that was meant— I developed so many coping mechanisms which were not healthy, and so I had to forgive those girls who had bullied me. But when we choose to forgive others, we're actually deciding that God has already allowed us to be accepting a plan. His plan is to allow Jesus to cover the multitude of our sins, but also those sins that have been committed against us. It's the substitutionary concept of forgiveness. It's 2 Corinthians 5:21, which says, "God made him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf." And it's because of that substitution that you and I can accept and receive God's forgiveness of our sins, and we can let the blood of Jesus cover our sins. But then we can offer that same grace and mercy to other people who have hurt us, who have wronged us, who maybe have traumatized us like me. That was the very beginning of my Lainat. Now, I didn't know, I didn't even understand the depth of the bullying. Um, and for some people they may think, well, that wasn't that big of a deal. But you know, your own trauma is a big deal if it's held you back from what God has for you, or if the enemy has bound you up in in knots, um, if you will, or trapped you really, because that's what knots become is a snare. And the Bible talks a lot about the snares of the enemy and, and the traps that the enemy lays for us. So, so forgiveness is huge. Uh, it's something that if we don't offer forgiveness to other people or accept God's forgiveness of our sins, then what we do is we're not enabling God to love us. For one thing, for me, I did not— I was not able to accept God's forgiveness for my past for many years. And that's why— for— that's why I'm so passionate about helping people understand this is an important part of our Christian discipleship journey. It's allowing God to take care of our past. It doesn't mean that he erases it. Hopefully we've learned from our past mistakes or trauma. But what it means is that we can let the Lord resolve it to the point that he restores us to a better place. That's what restoration is. It's always better than the original product. So, um, so your question was about forgiveness. It's a big deal. Yeah, it's a big deal to accept God's forgiveness but also extend it to other people. That— who deserves God's mercy and who deserves God's grace? None of us, right? And, um, often when we can't forgive ourselves for anything that we have done in our past, it's that we are not offering ourselves God's grace and forgiveness or accepting God's grace and forgiveness.

Sure. Well, and if I'm hearing you correctly, um, and you tell me if I'm, I'm hearing you wrong, but I'm hearing a lot of this in what you're talking about, um, the roots come in from condemnation in some way too. This, whether it be unforgiveness of others, um, we believe in your case, uh, when you were bullied, you were believing words of condemnation from others, um, whether, whether you would know to call it that or not, um And it's very interesting to me how forgiveness is so linked up into freeing us from those things. Even when we think about scriptures that become so familiar to us, like John 3:16, for God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten Son. But we often stop at that verse and don't move on to where— because God had not sent him into the world to condemn the world, but that the world would be through him saved. And, and so it's, it's a beautiful thing when we think about maybe what holds us back sometimes from, as you had said, from receiving what forgiveness really is, is God not coming to condemn us but in fact to free us from these things. And I love when I think about that illustration with your idea of unraveling knots and what that might mean. There is this real, um, atoning healing, so to speak, that takes place when we realize suddenly that God's desire is not to condemn be in ways that maybe we've confused his voice with the voices of others who have spoken those condemning words, but that God would come with the idea, send his son so that we might be saved and so that we would not be condemned. And so it's a beautiful unraveling of these knots that's coming together in these ways. So it's a beautiful thing in the way that you're describing it for us today. So thank you for taking some time. And I agree with you, forgiveness is a big deal. I've heard it described before, and you probably have too, is bearing unforgiveness towards others is like drinking poison and hoping the person that harmed you gets sick from it, you know. And yes, and it really does do that to us. So whether we're the ones withholding forgiveness or whether it is that we feel like we're not being forgiven, sometimes that can have an effect too, you know, us, that feeling of condemnation. So it's, it's a powerful thing when we realize that we can take a breath and say, oh, you're not going to condemn me, Lord. What a beautiful beautiful thing and say, "Yes, I accept. I accept that generous invitation." So, well, thank you for sharing that. And I want to dive in just a little bit more with the time that we have left. These are good things for us to talk about today. You spoke a little bit already, and I'll let you decide how much of this you want to share, but you mentioned some things with the bullying from these girls that led you to an addiction, to misusing substances and things like that. Yeah, this is part of, as I understand what you discuss in your book too, um, Freedom from Addiction. And so I, I wonder how these lie knots that we, uh, bear in ourselves that tie us up in knots, these lies we believe, um, you've already discussed a little bit how letting go of the things the girls had done to you with that, was that for you a real part of being set free from addiction? Um, when you could again let forgiveness happen, for one thing. And I'm just kind of interested in how it all tied together for you.

Well, um, I was actually sent away from home for the summer of 1974, and that— yeah, I am that old. But my parents probably needed a few nights of sleep because I was not home very much at night. I was out running the streets of my town. But I went to a Christian camp up in Lake Tahoe, and it was at that camp that believers spoke God's Word over me. And the scripture— I didn't know it was a scripture reference at the time because it was a 6-word phrase that was, "Love covers a multitude of sins." It's 1 Peter 4:8. And what these people did to me for 2 weeks, each one of these staff members at this camp— I mean, I was a juvenile delinquent. I was cussing them out. I brought my drugs up there with me. I did everything to get myself kicked out of that place, but they just loved me. And I think that that really is the key of allowing the Lord to love us even when we don't love ourselves. Love covers a multitude of sins, but what does that look like? So I have an acrostic that I want to share with you because it's something that I really I feel is very helpful. And it starts with the first 3 letters of the word ask, A-S-K. It's A, ask God to show you the ways that you're being deceived. And as I mentioned earlier, when we're deceived, we don't know it. And that's right where the enemy wants us to stay, is in that area of deception. And the scripture to go along with that is John 8:32. And that scripture says, "Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." Well, remember, truth is Jesus. Jesus is a person. And so when you think about, "Oh, truth, what that means is I've got to, you know, put my hand on a Bible and tell the truth," and yeah, that's what it means too. But when you encounter the truth of Christ and that our Savior He came not to judge the world but to save us, to restore us into a relationship with God. Then another scripture to go along with that is James 4:6-7: Submit yourselves then to God, resist the devil, and he will flee from you. And when we choose to submit to God, when, when we choose to say, okay God, I know there's something wrong here, I don't know what it is, but I'm going to say no to the devil— what resisting means is is saying no. That's rebuking, renouncing. I'm not going to go your way. I want to go God's way. And when we speak those things out loud, it's for our own self. Because do you know, you speak to yourself. There's voices in your head. That's the name of your podcast, right? But those voices are— you speak to yourself more than anybody else. And so when you tell yourself the truth and when you say it out loud, it's powerful. It's not about, you know, saying it, it's get naming, name it and claim it. It's not that. It's that you are saying to God, I mean it. And the devil hears that too. And so do his demons. And those, it says in God's word in the rest of that scripture in James 4:7, and he will flee. That means the devil has to run away from us. And that's where we're taking our authority through our position in Christ. The second letter in the word ASK of our acrostic is S. Seek to find the lie behind the fear, because usually behind every lie is a fear that the, the enemy has us trapped in. And you already alluded to this scripture in Romans 8. Romans 8, verse 1 says, therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Remember, the Holy Spirit is the one who convicts us, and the opposite of conviction is condemnation. And condemnation only comes from one source, and that is the liar, the father of lies, the deceiver, the accuser of the brethren. And the last letter in the word ASK and the final letter of our acrostic is K, kindness. Show yourself kindness. And this is where, as I mentioned, I was in shame and blame and unworthiness. I felt that way for 20 years. I was not offering myself loving kindness because the same loving kindness that God offered each one of us as believers, that's the loving kindness that led us to repentance. Remember that? Remember when you first received Jesus as your Savior? And so if we can be kind to ourselves, and that doesn't mean always going to your favorite coffee shop every day and getting a pastry. What it means to is to give yourself grace and to forget your past mistakes. God does not remember our past, nor will he bring it up against ourselves. But we do that to ourselves, don't we? We bring up our past and we beat ourselves up with this, with it, and we think, okay, if God— God forgave me, but man, I just can't forgive myself for this. So in Romans 2:4 is our scripture with that. It's a great scripture that, that really says, "Or do you show contempt for the riches of God's kindness, forbearance, and patience, not realizing that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?" Yeah. And as we offer ourselves grace, it doesn't mean we should go on sinning. But what it means is we can offer ourselves— God wants healing for us. He wants restoration. And we should want that same healing enough to do the work that it requires, because it is a lot of work. But also say, "Praise the Lord! God did this. I wanted it, and God is there, and he is the one who's restoring me to wholeness." And that's what I love to share, is wholeness is so possible. When we receive Jesus as our Savior, we have everything that we need in Christ. But many believers, they just kind of live like the glass is half full— or I'm sorry, half empty, right? They're kind of going around just kind of like, well, I don't deserve that, or I'm unworthy. And I don't know, I mean, I get it. Sometimes it's true, you want to be humble, but not a false humility. It's all about just saying it's only because of God's grace and God's mercy and the forgiveness that God offered us through His Son Jesus, that we can receive total restoration. And in Him, it's through Him that we are completely whole.

I love that. And I appreciate the acrostic that you just shared, the ASK, SEEK, and the KINDNESS. The ASK, those are great things. And just as I was listening to you, lay that out for our listeners so well. It reminded me of— it's been a couple of years ago now, but I had a theologian on my podcast named Stanley Hauerwas. And Hauerwas is known to be kind of a theologian's theologian, so to speak. And you often, when you're asking questions to people in the academic world, you wonder, they're going to probably have some really big answer, and I don't even know if I'll understand it when they tell me what the answer was. But he said and I've always remembered this, I even wrote it down, very similar to what you just said about kindness. He said that I have come to see kindness as the very character of God. And I've always held on to that and loved it. It reminded me of my favorite people in the world and in life, people like Fred Rogers of Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood, who really made kindness that was so exhibited in the way that he did his television shows. And he was a commissioned evangelist through his church, and that was how he showed it, was how to love our neighbor and to exhibit the kindness of God. So bringing all this back around, from great theologians up in the heights of academia to Fred Rogers and Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood, to us today here on this program, we have this truth that you just read to us a few minutes ago, that it is kindness of the Lord that leads us to repentance, to this place really of where we can have these līknots unraveled for us. And it's when we can stop holding these things so tightly that are harming us, we can see that the— that God is coming with such kindness, such beauty and kindness. So these are great things for us to remember today. So I appreciate you taking some time to share with us I know we've only scratched the surface, but we're, we're about to run out of time on my end today. So I want to take a moment at the end just to ask you, um, if you could share with our listeners today, um, any information that you have, um, where they can find out more about you and the book. And I'll also let listeners know that all of our show notes, whether it be on my Substack page or on voicesofmyheadpodcast.com, We will make sure and have several links available where you can just easily with a click go to Cheryl's websites and to her book and things like that. But I would love for you, Cheryl, just in the last couple minutes that we have here together today, let our listeners know where they can find out more about you and more about your new book.

Thank you. Yes, it's on my website, which is Cheryl with an S, S-H-E-R-Y-L G as in Giesbrecht, T as in Turner, dot com. So CherylGT.com.

CherylGT.com. That is easy enough for us to remember for sure. And again, we will have all of your show notes available. Well, thank you for taking some time today. And again, we have barely even gotten into the depths of what you have written about here today. We've only gotten to cover a few subjects So I know my listeners are going to want to go and investigate more for themselves. But thank you for your ministry. Thank you for helping us in this work of unraveling the knots. And really what you've done is you've pointed us to Jesus through all of this. And I'm very grateful for that. Anytime that we can spend some time together and with Jesus, it's a good thing. So thank you so much. I say this to my guests every week, and I'm going to share it with you again, like I do all my guests. Cheryl Giesbrecht Turner, thank you for being one of the voices in my head this week. Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, follow my blog, and even schedule me for a concert or a speaking engagement. Better yet, even a book signing in your neighborhood. You can find all that and more at RickLeeJames.com. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, the more visible this podcast will be online. And now for the benediction: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you you may abound in hope. God bless you, and thank you for listening to Voices in My Head.