Episode 469: Will Willimon - Listeners Dare

Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James.

I'm a recording artist, a singer, a songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more with friends, colleagues, and sometimes just by myself. Now make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes or by tweeting at me @RickLeeJames on Twitter. And please join my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. By the way, in case you're interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the voices in my head. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of Voices in My Head.

Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I'm your host Rick Lee James, and I'm so glad that all of all of you who are listening are able to be with us today. My guest today is once again William Willimon. Will has long been a trusted colleague for working preachers. He's known for his encouragement of his fellow ministers to, to enjoy telling the truth of Jesus Christ. He is professor of the practice of Christian ministry at Duke University Divinity School, director of the Doctor of Ministry program, and is a retired bishop of the United Methodist Church. For 20 years as dean the Chapel of Duke University, Will became known as one of America's most engaging preachers. His new book, Listeners Dare, a companion to his previous book Preachers Dare, is for anyone who listens to sermons, which includes preachers since there is no way to preach without gaining skills as a listener. Listening is a human skill, but as God's Word is proclaimed, the hearer experiences a vocal mix of preacher, Listener and God. William Willimon, welcome back to Voices in My Head.

Hey, thank you, Rick. It's great to be back.

Well, it's really great to be able to chat with you again. I'm so glad that we have a chance to do this today. I've been enjoying your book, Listeners Dare, and as I was saying before we began, I think there are so many books about preaching and about the art of preaching, but I think this is a unique look at the art of preaching from the perspective of becoming good listeners and learning to listen to what God would be saying. You deal with constructive ways for listeners to actually be better listeners when it comes to the sermons and ways to give feedback. So there's so many good places we could take this conversation today, but I think I'll just start by saying, first of all, to all of our listeners, get a copy of the book. We'll have links in all of our show notes and places where you can go. But let's start out today In the book, you say something that I found quite interesting. You say, "Listeners are more interesting than we who preach to them." And you talk about opening your class at Duke by showing students this painting, and it's a preaching of Saint John the Baptist, and the artist is Pieter— I think it's Pieter is how I pronounce it— Bruegel the Elder. And I wonder if you could start today by just talking to us about that painting and how you approach that and why whenever you were coming into a class setting.

Well, the painting was by, as you said, Pieter Bruegel. He's a Flemish painter of the 15th century, and it's a picture of a group of people standing in the woods. A bunch of people, about 50 people, is gathered Most of them are turned inward in the circle, but not all of them. And you wouldn't know what the painting is without being told the title. The title is St. John the Baptist Preaching. And you gotta really, really look hard to find the preacher. One reason is not everybody is paying attention to the preacher. Some of them are looking out at the painting, Others are carrying on conversations. Down toward the front of the painting, people are gambling. People are showing off things that they have bought down in the little Dutch town. But in the center, there's an undistinguished looking character dressed in brown. That's John the Baptist, and preaching. And to me, the painting is sort of a symbol for how more people are listening to a sermon than are speaking the sermon. Also, the people who listen are in great variety. They don't all look the same, they're not all dressed the same, they're not all paying attention. They, and it's almost like Bruegel is sort of saying that the thing that impresses him about the preaching of John the Baptist were the listeners to John the Baptist. And it is interesting in Scripture, speaking of John the Baptist as a preacher, there's really about as much about the reaction to John's sermons as we're given information on John's sermons. The crowds say, "What must we do?" And John tells them. Also, I mentioned that Herod, uh, is reported to have enjoyed the preaching of John the Baptist, which is, uh, weird considering that John the Baptist's preaching, uh, is at least incipiently against Herod. And also, of course, how John the Baptist eventually met his demise at the hands of Herod. So for me, this book is an attempt to turn toward the listener and ask ourselves, who's listening? How are they hearing? What can we do to help them hear better? What can they do to help themselves become better listeners? And so it's a book about that.

Yeah, well, I think too, when I had a chance to look at the painting a little bit and just kind of see some of those details, and you're right, it's hard to tell, you know, where the preacher is and who's doing what, but I think that it actually speaks so well to our modern life because I think that we're having a harder time listening than ever before. Everybody's speaking, there's lots of noise. But even in church, and I've been guilty of this myself, oftentimes my Bible is on my phone. And even when I'm doing something like listening to a sermon, sometimes I'll quickly want to look up like a Greek reference or something, and then all of a sudden I'm not listening anymore. I'm actually, you know, kind of doing my own little thing on the side. So I just think the task is so important, and that picture illustrates it so well for us, this challenge of of not just being preachers, but there's a real challenge in our society of being good listeners and listening to the Spirit. And as you point out in the book, there's a few who are listening in that painting, it seems like. And those are— it's probably more often than not the few that are listening than the many, even in the big crowd anymore. So there's just— I think that was a great way to start the discussion when we're talking about what it means to to be listeners. Well, you know, when we're on this topic of listening, I wonder, in your opinion, what lies more at the heart of the gospel? Is it more listening or is it more preaching, do you think?

You know, maybe what lies at the heart of the gospel is conversation, and conversation is speaking, and it's also listening. One can think about, uh, all that Jesus, for instance, said about preaching. He commissions his disciples to preach. He himself preaches and teaches, and a lot of times it's difficult to sort out what Jesus you know, what's kind of preaching and what's teaching, and maybe with Jesus that's an inappropriate endeavor. It's kind of, in a sense, it's all preaching. And so there is speaking, and like you think of the Acts of the Apostles, you've got these records of early Christian sermons by Peter and Philip, Paul, and they're given in some detail in Acts. Um, however, seen from another angle, there's about as much material about hearing because, like, Jesus preaches in Luke 4 in Nazareth, and, uh, we are given there the most of what he said in his sermon But the thing that impresses us in the story is not simply the content of his sermon, but the reaction to his sermon by the congregation, who changed from being an adoring congregation in his hometown synagogue to being a murderous mob wanting to throw the preacher over a cliff. And in the Acts of the Apostles, uh, generally whenever a sermon is given, even when the text of the sermon is not shared with us. We're given the reaction of the hearers. And so clearly Christian preachers want to be heard, and clearly these early texts are concerned about people hearing and not hearing. One thing that interests me is that, um, doesn't seem from what I see to be much worry among the preachers about whether or not they are accepted, what they say is accepted. In fact, in the Acts of the Apostles, for instance, it amazes me, you've got— there's a kind of redundancy in the sermons in Acts. They're a lot alike. They go over the same kind of salvation history, but the reactions they get to the sermons are sometimes remarkably different. Sometimes people, like in Acts 2, are pricked to the heart and say, "What must we do?" And the preacher says, "I'll tell you what you need to do. You need to repent, be baptized. This promise is to you and to your children." But in a sense, much the same sermon is preached just a short time later, and they say, "We're going to kill you," and they were going to throw you in jail. "This is the worst thing we've ever heard." And maybe that says to us preachers that the listener's reaction, whether they hear or refuse to hear, doesn't really determine the parameters of preaching or doesn't determine whether a sermon is, quote, "good" or not good. Right. The main thing is that the word be preached and then Preachers can be surprised if their listeners hear or refuse to hear. In fact, I know as a preacher, I really am disappointed when people refuse to hear what I'm talking about, or they say, "I don't understand," or they say, "We've never heard anything like this," or they say, "You ought to be fired for preaching like this." However, in scripture, hearers are noted for refusing the gospel truths about as much as they receive it. And so I find that interesting.

Yeah. Well, we were just talking in one of my classes for Loyola last night, and we were talking about the epistles of Paul and the authentic epistles and things. And it just occurred to me that, you know, we have these letters that Paul writes and they're really these messages to specific churches. So, you know, what is going to work for the Corinthians may not actually work for the Thessalonians or wherever it's going. But I found it interesting that like we don't really get the other side of those letters. Like we don't know, did they write back to Paul and say, you're full of baloney, Paul?

You know, that's an interesting point. Yeah.

And so it's interesting for us to think about ways that, you know, how can we best be effective listeners? Or what does it even mean? Like, like, usually we think, uh, you know, well, hey, that was a good sermon today, God really showed up. And I always wonder, like, well, how do we know? Did they try to kill you at the end of the sermon? Because it seems like in the— and yeah, with Jesus, you know, in the synagogue, um, that happened. So that seems like God showed up and it didn't have the desired outcome. But in spite of that, in spite of, you know, not always reacting the way we should, you do have some good advice in your book about ways that we can maybe be better listeners and also give, like, good constructive feedback to preachers, which is really something that needs to happen. I love the way that you emphasize this sort of give and take together, this conversation, as you just said it. And maybe sometimes we don't respond as much as we should to our preachers, or maybe as preachers, we don't receive the feedback as well as we should at times. So I wonder if maybe this morning you could get into some of the advice that you give in the book to those who are listening to preachers. First of all, ways that are good practices, maybe good habits for being good listeners, but then also good ways to approach their preacher in ways, not just as like, 'Well, that was terrible,' or 'That was great.' But what is a way for a listener to come to a preacher in a way that's good for everybody, that says, 'This is what I heard, and I'd love to continue this conversation'?

Well, I do encourage preachers to actively seek feedback. Generally, in my experience, preachers don't get feedback unless we actively invited. Many listeners do not feel that preachers really want feedback. Another challenge is— and in the book, by the way, I give some examples of ways over the years I've intentionally actively tried to seek listener feedback, everything from questionnaires handed out to them after the sermon, to groups formed to meet with me after the sermon, before the sermon, and then after the sermon. And I've reported on some of the research on what people hear and don't hear. And some of that can be kind of discouraging to a preacher. When one realizes how little is retained from a sermon, or the weird things listeners will seize upon to remember from a sermon. On the other hand, that may say to us preachers, you need to ask the right questions. Maybe a sermon is not primarily about retaining certain information. It may be more about motivation, it may be about encouragement, it may be about an encounter with the risen Christ. That's one of my justifications for preaching. Well, so soliciting feedback requires some skill, and I try to help with that in the book. On the other hand, I try to say to listeners, I've been known to say to listeners, "Some of you are getting the preaching you deserve." Now, let me tell you, a lot of listeners push back on that, but I ask them, "When is the last time you have really tried to give helpful feedback to your pastor? When is the last time you've said to your pastor, 'You know, that had to be a tough sermon for you to preach, and I really appreciate you taking that on'?" I'm not sure I agree with you, but I really appreciate your taking us seriously. You're preparing, you're presenting, thank you. Preachers need that. And probably listeners would be really surprised how much we preachers cling to what listeners say to us. In fact, I say to listeners in the book, Be a good steward of your sermon reaction. That I know, I, and I think I speak for most of my fellow preachers, I remember the one negative comment made about my sermon long after I've forgotten the 30 positive comments about my sermon. Or I tend, when someone comes out and say, "Thank you, that was a nice sermon," I tend to dismiss that as a kind of non-comment. When maybe it was a quite heartfelt and even accurate response. So just to say to listeners, it can be difficult to know how to respond. I'm a teacher of preachers in a seminary, and I know when a student has worked on a sermon and given you a sermon, at the end of the sermon and say, "Okay, Professor, what'd you think about my sermon?" It's hard to respond, and it's not just a matter of, do I want to say the truth or not say the truth? But it's, how can I be most helpful in my response to the student? It's not much good to say, "I'm sorry, that sermon didn't do a thing for me." I mean, that comment says very little. However, to say something like, 'You really had me the first part of your sermon, but then midway through your sermon, you seemed to jump off into another sermon, and I was lost. I didn't want to hear that sermon. I wanted to hear the first sermon that you were started with.' Or to say, or to ask a preacher, 'Can you kind of sum up for me why you wanted to preach that sermon?' And by the way, that's a great question, I think, for us preachers to ask ourselves as we preach. What is my main overriding intent and purpose in preaching this sermon? Because a lot of times, listeners are out there and sitting there thinking, "Why is the preacher bothering us about this? What on earth possessed the preacher, the desire to bother us with this?" So, Listening to a sermon requires a wide array of skills. Responding helpfully to a sermon also requires a wide array of skills. And I must say, receiving feedback from our listeners is one of the skills required to preach well to our listeners.

Yeah, that's very good for us to hear and be reminded of. You know, as you were talking, I was thinking about not necessarily something that's in your book, but I was thinking about the ways that we prepare for these messages, and then listeners tend to hear something that we didn't say, and oftentimes it'll be like, "What?" you know, we'll be the ones on the receiving end if we've preached that day and they come up and say, "When you said that, that, you know, it really spoke to my heart." And we'll be thinking, "I don't think I said that," you know, or things like that. And it reminds me of this story, you know, the late Fred Rogers who did, you know, Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood. I read a few books about his life.

Yes, you have a great interest in Mr. Rogers. Yeah, don't we all? Yeah.

And it was always interesting to me that his He was almost like Wesley in his discipline, like in the way he would wake up in the morning and start his prayer time and his Bible study, and then he would exercise, and then he'd go into the studio every day. And the prayer that he would pray before he would walk in the door was, "Lord, let some word that is heard be yours today." And it was interesting to me that there were stories people would share, like they had been almost ready to commit suicide or something. And all of a sudden Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood came on on PBS, and they said it was like God spoke to them in this moment, and if they ever had the chance to talk to him, he would say back to them, he said, "Well, what you heard was the Holy Spirit using my words to tell you what you needed to hear." And I always have thought that about preachers and our task.

It's a wonderful response.

Yeah, and the way that you're talking about in your book about this task of listeners to hear I think it's important that we do say we're listening to a preacher, but deeper than that, we're hopefully hearing what the Holy Spirit is speaking to the church today. And sometimes that's what the preacher says, and sometimes it's not in those occasions, but hopefully God is using it all to the good. Sorry for that sort of side bit. That was just my kind of comment.

No, I think that's a beautifully faithful response from Mr. Rogers.

Yeah.

I think— I hope I repeatedly say in the book, when we preach, we're not preaching solo.

Yeah.

We actually believe that we frail, finite, mortal creatures as we are, we become means of the Holy Spirit getting through to God's people. And therefore, because the Holy Spirit blows where it wills, as is said in John 3, The Holy Spirit is not controlled by us, so get ready to expect people to come out and say, "Thank you, I was thinking about committing suicide today, but your sermon really moved me away from that." And you're thinking, "Wait a minute, I wasn't talking about suicide. How did you get that?" Well, that may be a kind of everyday observation of the power and reality of the Holy Spirit working in people's lives. Also, one reason people don't hear what I preach in a sermon is that they're sinners. I'm— I am too. And it's the nature of sin to distract. It's the nature of sin to, uh, turn us away from our intended goal of hearing. It's my sin gets all mixed up in my communication and that can be a problem. So that's the Holy Spirit and also sin and also I'll add a third factor, different levels of comprehension, different levels of where people are in their journey with Christ, uh, where they are at that moment in their life history. All of that influences how people hear. And, and I like that Mr. Rogers, uh, your example, is able to kind of celebrate the fact, uh, that, you know, My goal is not necessarily to deliver to you a discrete message, a number of ideas. My goal is to provoke an encounter with the living Christ with you. And so that listener response could be a sign that you've accomplished just what you wanted to in your preaching.

Yeah, well, and I think too, To get back to the preaching side of it for a minute too, and you spoke a few moments ago about preachers bringing this message. And I think sometimes, especially right now, maybe, maybe I'm just saying that because it's, it's the life I've experienced over the last few years in the ministry, but it can be difficult for preachers to be courageous in the pulpit. And you had said a few moments ago that when a layperson comes up to a preacher and says, "That must have been really hard for you today, and I appreciate what you've said even if I don't agree with it." I think that's an important aspect too, that I think maybe we need to train preachers more and more to be courageous in their speaking, and maybe for listeners to be courageous in their listening as well, because these messages can be so hard. And I think of one that you shared in your book where you, because of the lectionary, had preached a sermon on loving your enemies. And there was a lady that came up to you after your sermon and was not the happiest. And do you recall the outcome of that story? I'd love for you to share that just sort of as this final word.

Well, I preached on loving your— well, I preached on forgiving your enemies, blessing those who persecute you. And this woman comes out and says, "Do you mean to tell me that Jesus Christ wants me to forgive my husband who made my life miserable for 10 years with his abusive behavior until I had the guts to walk out on him? I'm now expected to forgive him?" And I immediately got defensive and immediately, you know, and said, "Well, you know, we only have 20 minutes for these sermons. I can't adequately qualify everything. And then I can't imagine, uh, though, a bigger enemy than your ex-husband. And, uh, I don't know that I would urge you to do this, but I do think that's exactly what Jesus urges you to do. And, um, she surprised me by saying, uh, thank you, I'm just, just checking. And, and she walked out. Well, I report it was like the Holy Spirit descended and said to me as a preacher, "Now wait a minute, who told you that your job was to protect her from me? When you look at her, you see a victim. Dear, you're a victim. All moral responsibility is off your shoulders. I didn't really mean for you to be a side disciple." 'Since you are a victim.' No, when I look at her, Jesus says, 'I see a disciple. I am going to turn the world around with her if you will just get out of the way and let me work with her.' So, it is a tough job for us preachers to preach Jesus without getting in the way of Jesus and suddenly sort of protecting, attempting to protect people from Jesus.

Yeah, well, those are such wise words to us today. Stop, stop trying to protect your people. Stop seeing victims maybe and start seeing disciples there. I think that's a powerful thought for us today and a very good one. How many times have we missed the disciple that's there in front of us? Because all we can see is this person that's been a victim. So I really appreciated that story. It was good to hear.

Oh, great.

Um, well, I'd love to ask you in the, in the few minutes that we have left, um, first of all, what's inspiring you right now? That's a question I usually like to ask. And then, um, what's next? It seems like you're such a prolific writer. I'm wondering if there's a— there's another book coming down the way anytime soon.

Well, I'm— what's inspiring me? I think I continue to be inspired. I'm fortunately, I'm teaching in a seminary and it is inspiring to see God continue to bring forward a new generation of preachers. Preaching is difficult. It is fraught with possibilities for failure. Yet here they come showing up saying, "I think I'm called to proclaim the Gospel." That's inspiring that God refuses to let our refusal stand in God's way. God will talk to us. God will be in conversation with us. A primary way to do that is through preachers. And so it's inspiring to get a front row seat on that kind of renewal and recruitment. What I'm working on right now is I'm working on a book for Methodist, addressed to Methodist preachers and Methodist congregations on what next. Our church is struggling to come out of the pandemic. Now in the post-pandemic time, and also we're struggling with separations and divisions in our denomination. And so I'm trying to ask congregations and pastors, what should you be focusing upon working on right now? And so that's what I am working on.

That's great. Well, thank you for sharing that with us today. I really appreciate it. I do want to let all of our listeners know that we're going to have links to not only Dr. Willemann but his books right from our Voices in My Head podcast page. So it should be, if the technology works the way it's supposed to, as you're listening in whatever app you listen to, you should be able to go to the show notes, click on a link, and it'll take you right to Dr. Willemans' books and to his website, the Peculiar Prophet, I believe, is the blog that you write. So just to keep that in mind as you listen, it's great to listen, but it's also great to read as well. It's a wonderful book. And so I want to congratulate you on another great one today.

Hey, thank you, Rick. It's great to be with you.

Well, I appreciate you reaching out, and I'm glad. I was thinking back today, I think this is maybe your fifth time that we have this conversation. I think it is.

I've been grateful. I enjoy listening to Voices in My Head. It gets me over into areas that I don't naturally interface with. Also, I think you're not only a theologian, preacher, pastor, but you're an artist. And I think we preachers really, gravitate to artists and their work, whether that be music or visual arts, because hey, preaching is also an artistic endeavor. And so thank you.

Well, thank you for your kind words. I really appreciate that. Well, as I say to my guests each week, William Willimon, thank you for being one of the voices in my head.

Thank you.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, follow my blog, and even schedule me for a concert or a speaking engagement. Better yet, even a book signing in your neighborhood. You can find all that and more at rickleejames.com. Also, It would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, the more visible this podcast will be online. And now for the benediction: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. God bless you. And thank you for listening to Voices in My Head.