Episode 474 - (Part 1) Pieter Valk Equips the Church To Love Gay People

Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, a songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more with friends, colleagues, and sometimes just by myself. Now make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes or by tweeting at me @RickLeeJames on Twitter. And please join my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. By the way, in case you're interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the voices in my head. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of Voices in My Head. Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I'm your host, Rick Lee James, and I'm so grateful to all of you who are listening today. I hope that this I hope this will be a conversation that edifies you and helps you on your journey. My guest today on Voices in My Head is Peter Volk. Peter, spelled with an I, P-I-E-T-E-R, is a speaker and an author who shares about discernment, vocational singleness, and LGBT+ topics according to a traditional sexual ethic. He is the executive director of Equip, a premier consulting and training solution for churches aspiring to be places where gay people thrive according to a traditional sexual ethic. He is also a co-founder of the Nashville Family of Brothers, an ecumenically Christian monastery building family for men called to vocational singleness. Peter is also a teacher, an aspiring deacon in the ACNA, as well as a licensed professional counselor specializing in serving gay Christians hoping to steward their sexualities according to a traditional sexual ethic. Or more simply, as Peter says, he's here to help churches love gay people and celibate Christians find family. Peter Valk, welcome to Voices in My Head.

So glad to be here.

Well, it's certainly a privilege to be able to speak with you again today. It was just a little over a week ago now, I think, we were both in Kansas City together at the Loved to Love conference, which was a resourcing conference for the LGBT+ community, those who minister to and with them, and family members, and we really had a great time. And I know that as one who was invited to come and lead worship for the week, it was one of the most beautiful times that I've had in years. And so I really appreciated so many of the speakers who had so many good things, and I came to listen and to learn, and I learned so much. And part of that was because of you and the great presentation that you made through EQUIP. So I'm excited to be able to speak with you today. As we begin in our conversation here, could we start by just having you tell tell some of your backstory to our listeners and, um, maybe who you are, how you were raised, and just giving a little bit of context for where you find yourself today.

Yeah, sure. So I, uh, grew up in Northeast Tennessee, culturally conservative environment in the '90s, uh, in a Christian family, uh, mom and dad and a brother that went to church regularly and read the Bible regularly. Um, and then in 6th grade I realized that I was gay, or I realized that I experienced same-sex attractions. I swore that I would never let anyone know this part of my story. I mean, I was pretty ashamed and afraid others would find out and treat me poorly because of that. And I was really alone. So, you know, probably like many in your audience, the family and church I grew up in rarely talked about gay people. But when they did, it mostly came up in the context of politics and/or a simple statement that God is against homosexuality. It was clear that like that gay was bad and that good Christians weren't gay. So once I realized that that was a part of my story and not something that I chose and something that I tried to ignore, and I then I tried to change it. I tried to pray that away. I mean, between the ages of 13 and 23, I prayed hundreds of prayers that God would make me straight. I went to 100+ hours of counseling over that decade with different therapists who thought that they could reduce my gayness. And I spent about 9 months in a pray the gay away ministry. And yet, my same-sex attractions didn't change. One bit during that time. So, I mean, growing up, like, I was, I was so afraid that people would find out this part of my story that I dropped out of theater, just so people wouldn't suspect that I was gay. So like, in middle school, I played the leading roles in both of our theater productions. But in high school, I quickly realized that the same people in theater club was also, were also in the Gay-Straight Alliance. I couldn't risk anyone, you know, suspecting that I was gay. So no more theater for Peter. But, you know, thankfully, I ended up going to college in Nashville at Vanderbilt University, and I was a part of a campus ministry and a Christian fraternity where I thought it was worth the risk of being fully known and fully loved. So I shared about this part of my story with kind of peers for the first time. And then got to share with my entire Christian fraternity my story and ended up meeting other guys who had the same experience and the same convictions. You know, despite the fact that God did not change my sexual orientation, despite the fact that I felt kind of this dread about my same-sex attractions that I did, I continued to be a Christian. I continued to be convinced the Bible is how I know who God is and that the Bible and the church historically seem to teach pretty clearly about God's best for all people's sexual stewardship, including gay people's sexual stewardship. So I continue to be convinced of a traditional sexual ethic, and you used that phrase earlier. You know, when I use that phrase, I mean a traditional sexual ethic is a belief that God's best for his people is either a lifetime calling of abstinence singleness, for the sake of doing kingdom work with undivided attention, or a lifetime calling to a marriage between one Christian man and one Christian woman with an openness to the important kingdom work of raising children. So that's what I mean when I say a traditional sexual ethic, that that's God's best.

Okay.

So anyway, yeah, toward the end of college, had friends who had similar experiences and realized, you know, we are all pretty similar. In the fact that we were all afraid that if we followed God's wisdom, we would be alone for a lifetime. And none of us had parents or pastors who knew how to minister to us. And in many ways, those two realizations were kind of the impetus, the beginnings of two of the big projects I'm a part of today, which is a ministry that seeks to equip parents and pastors to minister better to people like me according to a traditional sexual ethic. Um, and then starting an intentional Christian community where men called to celibacy regardless of sexual orientation, um, can find family, uh, in the body of Christ. So yeah, that's a little bit about me and, and yeah, really quick version of how we got where we are today.

Yeah, there's, there's so much more to it, but I, I was listening to some of your story on another podcast too, and I, and I, I wanted to, to just express how how much of a struggle this was for you in some ways too. And one of the stories that I heard, and I don't remember where I heard it, but I do remember you telling the story of even, I think it was being on the track team, and there was maybe somebody in your high school that was out and was sort of, I don't know, maybe bullied, I guess, a little bit because of this. And I remember in the story, you could tell it obviously better than I could, but in the fear that you had that you would be found out, as nobody else wanted to be this person's partner in something you were doing on the track, that you as well, in order to not be found out, were sort of like, "No, you leave, get away from me too," you know, type thing. And so I wanted to express that just to say, like, there's this pressure that is on people, especially who are same-sex attracted, I think in some ways more than we realize. I say we as people who aren't in that category. That maybe there's a fear there that enables you sometimes to do things you wouldn't even do just to not be found out, you know. And so I guess all I'm doing to say that is not to point out like, well, shame on you for doing that, because I wouldn't say that at all. What I'm saying is there's a load that I think that especially our young people are carrying, and maybe sometimes the church makes it even more hard, you know. Sometimes it maybe sometimes the church creates an even bigger burden on top of a burden that they're already feeling. I'm not even going to say maybe, it does and it has, you know, in many ways. As you just said, oftentimes parents don't know how to talk about it. And then, if you don't mind, I wanted to focus a little bit on— you said you had spent some time in this Pray the Gay Away ministry, or this ex-gay ministry. And I think it's important for our audience to hear from you on this too, that those like Exodus International, places that specialized in this for a long time, have basically shut down, or at least changed their method, because they've said we don't really have a good success rate in turning people. Would you speak to that just a little bit, just to help my listeners understand some more of that?

Yeah, so briefly, I'll say first that God has the power to do whatever he wants. Right? Um, some share testimonies of miraculous sexual orientation change, and I believe those people that that is their story. Um, and I think it's important to put that in the category of a miracle, something uncommon, something unexpected, because what we do see from really high-quality research from people over the past decades who have sought out sexual orientation change efforts is that 96 to 97% of people who sought out those, uh, those, those interventions experienced no meaningful change in their same-sex attractions. 96 to 97%. And the same research found that participation in sexual orientation change efforts doubled individuals' risk of suicidality. Wow. So ineffective at sexual orientation change, but effective at doubling your risk of suicide.

Wow.

And so I think it's important to look at all of those numbers and recognize, can God do miraculous things? Yes. Can an individual, if they want to, pray and ask God for those things? Sure. But, um, giving people false hope that they are likely to experience sexual orientation change and tying whether or not their sexual orientation change efforts are successful to whether or not they're praying hard enough, or they're doing it right, or they're faithful enough, is really dangerous for that person's mental health and spiritual health. So, you know, part of my professional training is I'm a licensed professional counselor in the state of Tennessee. I've got my master's in clinical mental health counseling. And over and over again, I've met with counseling clients who they tied the goodness of God, or whether or not God was even real, to whether or not God would change their same-sex attractions. And then when God didn't, because God doesn't do miracles most of the time, um, the bottom fell out of their faith. The bottom fell out of their, uh, their belief that God was good or that God loved them. Um, and so I just, I don't think the solution, um, to the quote-unquote gay problem in our churches is sexual orientation change efforts. I think the solution is to recognize that there will be many Christians in our churches who by no choice of their own experience this brokenness of same-sex attraction, and it will be enduring. It will persist throughout their lifetime. How do we become a church where Christians, faithful Christians with persisting same-sex attractions, can belong in our churches, can be faithful, that we provide the support and the resources so that they can find family in the body of Christ, and so they can have joy and fullness of life despite those enduring same-sex attraction. So I think that's what our churches should focus on. I don't think the solution is pray the gay away. I also don't think the solution is to ignore what the scriptures have to say about God's best for all people. I think we have to resist both of those extremes and instead say God's wisdom is still good for all people, including gay people, and sexual orientation change is not the solution.

Well, thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate that, and I appreciate your perspective. And for people listening today, I want to clarify that this is Peter's story too, and this is how he has encountered this. And I think even the fact that you are someone who wants to serve Jesus with your life makes you different than a lot of people's stories automatically. And so some people might hear some of the things we're saying, they might come from a more progressive view and want to push back on it. They might come from an even more conservative view and want to push back on some of these. So I want to, I want to state right now that I appreciate so much hearing your story, that it is— this is a personal and real story that you're sharing today. And I wanted to ask you as well something that's been on my heart, because I've done just about all the jobs you can do in ministry over the years. I've I've been a youth pastor, I've been a music pastor, I mean, I've been the guy that jiggles the handle on the toilet before you leave, you know, to make sure the doors are locked and all that stuff. And one thing that has always been a concern to me, especially when I was a youth pastor, was it didn't matter where I was youth pastoring at, when it was, I always had at some point teens in the youth group and someone that came to me, usually trembling, full of fear, needing to tell this to someone, that I'm experiencing same-sex attraction and I don't know what to do with this. Some of them have said, my last church, I told somebody there and they told me never to come back until I changed. You know, things like that. That's a real concern to me because I want us to be a place where they can feel like, hey, this is for you too. You know, this is not a place for you to be cast out of. This is a place for you to come to with open arms. And one thing that I would be interested in hearing from you, and I think listeners would be too, is what are some of the maybe Christian clichés that when someone comes to you in this vulnerable place anyway, maybe in a church ministry or maybe just in life, Christians are particularly bad sometimes about offering unhelpful and even hurtful clichés sometimes to a person. So let's set up maybe a scenario where someone is in this situation and they're coming to their pastor or they're coming to someone in their church and they're sharing this very significant part of their life with someone else.

Yeah.

What can we do? How should we respond as the church to a person in that moment? What did you need that maybe you didn't get at that time that can help us in our end of things to say, boy, I wish, I wish I would have responded that way? Or do you understand what I'm asking here? I'd love to hear more about that. As how we can be a better help, I guess.

Yeah. So I think the first thing I'd say is I wish I would have shared with us, with, with someone who was trained to listen and respond well. I wish I would have shared with that kind of a person much, much sooner. I recognized this part of my story for the first time in 6th grade. And I would say that it probably wasn't until sophomore or junior year in college that when I was— that I first kind of shared with someone, and they didn't respond in a destructive way. And it was probably until age 24 that I shared with someone and they actually could help me more than I could help myself. Hmm.

Wow.

And so, yeah, I think what I'm— and I think the reason why that's so important, the reason why I wish— I wish in, in 6th grade, a couple of weeks after I realized this is a part of my story, I would have had a parent or a pastor to turn to who had expertise in, in, and, and confidence in ministering well to people like me. And because of that confidence, they didn't feel an insecurity when someone shared this and, and, and, and, and were kind of just trying to quickly fix the problem because the fact that they didn't know how to address this problem made them feel uncomfortable, right? Which is how a lot of pastors or parents feel. When a kid comes to them with this, all of a sudden internally that pastor or parent is freaking out because this is a big deal. I don't know how to fix this. I'm afraid to mess up. I want to find a simple solution. Um, if instead that pastor, that parent has adequate training, um, then they can respond, uh, with, with a non-anxious presence and with wisdom that helps soothe that child and help guide them to God's wisdom. But I think another thing is, you know, I wouldn't have shared with someone in 6th grade unless I knew that they were a safe person to share with. So I would have needed to hear actually before 6th grade someone in my life sharing about God's love and wisdom in age-appropriate ways and demonstrating safety to me so that I would— it would have felt safe enough for me to share when I was in 6th grade. So if I have like one ask for your audience, it's don't wait until the teenager in your church comes to you. Oh, because on average, teens still wait 5 years between when they first recognize same-sex attractions versus when they first tell a parent or a pastor. And most the time, by the time that 5 years is up, they've already decided what they think about these topics. They've already decided what they think God thinks about these topics. They've already decided whether or not they are interested in following God's wisdom or whether they think God exists at all. They've already probably accrued some wounds of the closet, including anxiety, loneliness, isolation, depression, suicidality, unhealthy coping mechanisms, you know, all of the above. If you wait until a kid shares with you, it's too late. Wow. So you as parents, you as pastors, you know, in an ideal world, need to share with every kid before they go through puberty in careful, age-appropriate ways about God's love and wisdom for everyone's sexual stewardship, and then specifically God's love and wisdom for gay people, and encourage them, "Hey, if you one day realize that same-sex attractions are a part of your story, would you share with me? Because you don't have to make sense of this alone, and it's not your fault, and I'm not going to try to make you straight, and I'm not going to shame you, and you don't need to be afraid of sharing with me." and you don't have to do this alone. We can do this together. Would you please share with me? I wish that's what would have happened for me, and I think that's the best thing that parents and pastors can do today.

Wow, that is so helpful, and I think probably everybody listening is going, "Thank you, thank you. I needed to hear that." So that brings me to another topic, and we'll see where the conversation kind of flows from that. So first of all, because you've already said suicide rates get higher as people enter into this world of not feeling loved and not feeling accepted and things like that. We've even experienced that recently on one of our Nazarene campuses. I know that I— that was nearby, and, and it turns out it was a person who was struggling with some of these things you're talking about today, probably didn't feel they had a safe place. So above all, we need to be interested in saving lives, you know, on, on that regard. And I think that's a very Christlike thing for us to do in many ways. But the other thing I kind of want to talk about with you, because you as a Christian and as one who is, as you have explained, what you believe to be a traditional sexual ethic, and it's not everybody who feels that way who comes out of the closet for sure. And so we have a lot of people from a lot of different perspectives. And I know that this will hopefully lead into talking about some of these ways that you're creating community for people who do feel a different calling to a different direction. But I know that you had also expressed, you know, and we talked beforehand, maybe we could address some of the things that people with a more progressive view, as we talked about before, like what are some of the things that, that they are bumping up against, you know? And you had phrased it so much better a little, a little while ago when we talked, so I might just let you take over here in just a minute. But I know a lot of the argument is on— and again, there's not just one or two arguments, there's many on this for sure. But one of the arguments is, you know, why would God have gay people to deny themselves or to, you know, look at themselves in any other way than just the way that God made them and things like that? Why would you want people to aspire to something more of this? And I'll let you know, we may have to continue this conversation a little longer because I'm I'm being told by Zoom we have 10 minutes left, so we might have to start a second conversation if we go longer, if that's all right with you.

Yeah, sure.

Um, but if, if you could maybe just talk a little bit about why, for you as a Christian, has it taken this path, I guess is what I'd like to get to ultimately, because you are really, um, a part of creating community, what you're calling like a new monasticism for people with, with not hindrance to who they are, but to almost a higher calling, to something that God is calling them to, a different form of intimacy. So I just love to hear your perspective on that, if that makes sense at all.

Yeah, yeah. So, so a couple things in there to, to, to speak to carefully. Yeah, I think, I think one of the reasons why maybe non-Christians or, or, or more progressive Christians, um, kind of balk at a traditional sexual ethic is sometimes there's a, well, a traditional sexual ethic increases suicide out in gay people, and that, and that's, that's proof that it can't be how God really thinks about this. Um, and one, we need to take suicidality really seriously, right? The statistics earlier that participation in sexual orientation change efforts doubles risk of suicidality, um, that's something we've got to, to pay attention to. Um, the reality that hiding in the closet Feeling like one cannot share about their sexual orientation with parents and pastors and people respond with love and care and compassion definitely increases suicidality. But there is research also that shows that gay people who are Christians and are choosing to steward that in celibacy Aren't at a higher risk of suicidality. There's actually a book by Mark Yarhouse, who's a psychologist and a researcher, called Costly Obedience. And in this book, they do some really thorough research of, you know, hey, is it a mental health or spiritual health liability to be gay and Christian and committed to celibacy? And here's a key quote from that book. It says, on measures of depression, anxiety, and stress, as well as well-being, our sample, gay celibate Christians, is doing better than expected. Most were in the normal range for depression, anxiety, and stress. And on another measure of distress, most again scored in the normal range. Then on a measure of well-being, most of our sample, gay celibate Christians, score high in overall life satisfaction. And so what research shows is basically gay celibate Christians are having the same mental health outcomes as the average American and are scoring higher in overall life satisfaction than, than the average American. So I think it's important to tease out, okay, what are the sources of this higher suicidality? It's ultimately not a traditional sexual ethic. It's, it's pray the gay away and it's And it's, and it's silence in our churches that encourages kids to continue in the closet for many, many years. But both of those can be rejected while holding on to biblical sexual ethics, biblical teaching. I think there's lots of other reasons why, you know, non-Christians or progressive Christians may doubt the truthfulness, the goodness of a traditional sexual ethics on LGBT LGBTQ+ topics, but I think one of the big ones is they rarely see in their churches gay people who are Christians committed to a traditional sexual ethic and that leading to good and beautiful fruit, right?

Mm-hmm.

Uh, thriving. I think if people saw that, it would be a lot easier for them to believe that what they read in scripture is true about gay people is, is really best for gay people. And so I think there's a couple of reasons. Well, so one, I think we need to, as the church, be honest. Yes, that's true. In few of our churches do you see gay Christians thriving according to a traditional sexuality. Now, I could have a whole further conversation about how I think when gay Christians follow a progressive sexual ethic, there's even worse fruit, there's even more destructive results. But, you know, that's a whole other conversation. But I want to focus on the truth, the recognize the reality that We're not seeing good fruit according to a traditional sexual ethic. Why? We need to own that. We need to recognize that, and we need to address that. So why is that? First, I think we have a lot of people who are still dealing with lingering wounds of the closet. We talked earlier about some of those negative effects of that 5-year gap between when a kid first recognizes same-sex attractions versus tells a parent or pastor.

Right.

That's really tough. So you got those lingering wounds of the closet. I think the second thing is that a lot of our churches are continuing to hold gay people to a high standard of sexual stewardship, but then they're kind of fudging the rules, compromising a bit, bending the rules for straight people. You know, they're kind of, "Oh, well, you know, is really saving sex before marriage reasonable? Do straight people really need to consider What Jesus and Paul have to say about a lifetime calling of celibacy, you know, is, is the— is an openness to raising children really central to Christian marriage? Is, you know, is marriage really until death do us part? Um, you know, do we really have to take what Jesus and Paul had to say about divorce and remarriage seriously, right? We bend, we break those things for straight people, but we don't do that for gay people. And this double standard It creates kind of a poisonous victim mentality for gay people that makes it hard for us to feel like, you know, the only explanation we can come to for why the Bible is being applied differently to us is homophobia. Well, they just don't like gay people. Um, and so I think that is poisonous. That needs to make negative fruit and makes it hard for gay Christians to steward their sexualities according to a traditional sexual ethic because they don't feel like gay— straight people are taking a traditional sexual ethic seriously. So it undermines, makes it easy for the enemy to whisper in their ear and say, hey, why follow this wisdom? No one else is.

Yeah.

But then I think the third reason, and this may actually parlay into kind of more of the conversation we want to have, is, you know, some gay Christians committed to a traditional sexual ethic may walk that out by— with enduring same-sex attractions, marrying someone of the opposite sex with complete honesty with that person about their enduring same-sex attractions, and navigate the complexity of that kind of a marriage called a mixed orientation marriage. That may be a good fit for some people, but for a lot of gay Christians committed to a traditional sexual ethic, the way they're going to walk that out is celibacy. And the reality is few of our churches are places where anyone can do lifelong celibacy for the sake of the kingdom well with reasonable effort, regardless of sexual orientation. And one of the big resources that is lacking is there's no way, there's no place for celibate Christians to find lived-in lifelong family in our churches. And listen, when we go to the scriptures and we see how Jesus and Paul are teaching about this kind of committed singleness for the sake of the kingdom, they're not talking about exchanging human intimacy for more God intimacy. They're not talking about running away into caves or prayer closets away from the church and not needing any, any family anymore. It consistently, when they speak about this committed singleness for the sake of the kingdom, they're still talking about it's a call to family. It's a call to human family. It's a call to human intimacy. And so I think that's a third, and perhaps even more important than the first two, reason why we see gay celibate Christians, um, not bearing good fruit, um, in their lives is because they are being starved of the family they need. But I don't think the solution is to just discard a traditional sexual ethic and then get them all gay married. I think the solution is for us to take seriously what the Bible has to say about committed singleness for the sake of the kingdom, for gay people and straight people, and to resource them and, and, and help them cultivate intentional Christian community where they can find family in celibacy. Um, and I think that's a key lever, a key work that our churches need to be doing.

Wow, well, that's a lot, uh, for us to think about right there. This is excellent. Tell you what, let's turn this into a two-part conversation if we could today. We'll make this the end of part one, and, uh, and then we'll come back with the continuing topic. So you're, you're going to get a two-podcast, uh, thing out of this. This will be great to continue the conversation because we've talked about a lot. So, uh, I guess I'll say to those listening, come back next week and we'll get the rest. Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, follow my blog, and even schedule me for a concert or a speaking engagement. Better yet, even a book signing in your neighborhood. You can find all that and more at rickleejames.com. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you would It would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, the more visible this podcast will be online. And now for the benediction: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. God bless you, and thank you for listening. Listening to voices in my head.