Episode 478 -As I Walk These Halls

Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, a songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more with friends, colleagues, and sometimes just by myself. Now make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes or by tweeting at me @RickLeeJames on Twitter. And please join my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. By the way, in case you're interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the voices in my head. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of Voices in My Head.

Hey friends, Rick Lee James here. Welcome back to Voices in My Head. I'm so glad to be with you again. I've been on a bit of a hiatus because I have been spending my summer in a very busy way, working as an intern as a chaplain at Kettering Health in Kettering, Ohio. And this is actually tying into today's episode. It's actually a friend of mine's show that I asked if I could release on my feed as well. His name is Chris Marchand, and he has a wonderful show called Post Consumer Reports. And he too has been a chaplain in the past. So we talk about some of my work as a chaplain and my new song, "As I Walk These Halls," which is about the work of chaplaincy. So I hope that you'll enjoy today's show. I hope that you'll also subscribe to his feed, to his podcast, Post Consumer Reports. It's always an honor to get to share with him. He's a great podcast host, a great author, and he's been on this show before. So I hope that you'll check out more about him. Please subscribe to his show. This will give you a taste of of what his programs are like. And he's really a great guy. And I so appreciate the opportunity to be able to share not only about my new song on his show, but also about my work in the chaplaincy. And I hope it will be enlightening to you if you've ever wondered, what do chaplains do? And so that's today's episode of Voices in My Head is actually an episode of his show, Post Consumer Reports. Just to let you know, though, my plan is to come back and be doing regular podcasts. I'm recording several interviews this coming week. Hopefully we'll get back on track here doing a weekly podcast.

So I guess that's it for now.

Enjoy the episode. Thank you for listening to Voices in My Head, and thank you for listening to my friend Chris's show, Post Consumer Reports.

Welcome to Post Consumer Reports, the podcast. My name is Chris Marchand.

Welcome to you.

This is my podcast, Post Consumer Reports. This is episode number 92 with an interview— or really, really, it's more of a long conversation— with a former guest, Rick Lee James. Rick Lee James is a musician, a church music leader, worship leader. Also a chaplain in training. And, and, and you might be thinking, a chaplain in training, why would I even bring that up? I mean, is, is that, is that relevant? Well, it just so happens that today's conversation is surrounding his new song called As I Walk These Halls. It's, it's, it's a, it's a work, it's a piece, it's a song that he composed as he found inspiration, as his heart was drawn to the training that he is currently in as a chaplain. And he, he contacted me a few weeks ago and said, hey, would you be interested in doing an interview as I'm releasing this song out into the world? And here's what I really like about this episode is that it's a companion piece. It's, it's, it's an unfolding, you know, it's turning his song inside out, explaining it in a way that the 4-minute song can't quite do. And this is, this is, this is maybe point number 1 of my little opening monologue here, is that art itself speaks to us in ways that we can't quite explain. So like, like Rick's song, like the music itself speaks to us in ways that we can go on and on forever about it. And you don't need to listen to my interview today.

That's the beauty of it.

Just listen to his new song, As I Walk These Halls. Uh, check the links out at Rick Lee James .com, at Rick Lee James, uh, his Bandcamp page. And he also has a link that I'll put up on the Post Consumer Reports website where different ways that you can stream and preview the song.

It'll—

by the time you listen to this, it will be out into the world.

But that's the beauty of art, is you don't need to listen to this interview, you just listen to the song itself. And yet at the same time, it's wonderful to have these long, drawn-out conversations about art We unpack the art in numerous ways over the next hour. So hope you enjoy it and go check out the new song.

Here's point number 2.

Here's what's funny about Rick Lee James is that I've never met him in person. And there are several people now over the years that are like this, where I develop these, you know, these friendships, these acquaintances online, and you get to know people and you follow them and you hear their voice, you hear the things they stand up for, the things that they're passionate about, the things that make them laugh.

And Rick Lee James is one of those people.

I've developed this online relationship with him, a friendship, and I just appreciate his presence. I appreciate his footprint in the world and the influence that he has on others. He has a, he's a Mr. Rogers podcast and a Mr. Rogers Twitter account, and he also has his own podcast, Voices in My Head, that I've been a guest on twice. So he's been gracious enough to have me on his podcast, and he's been on my podcast as well as a The Rich Mullins Podcast Between the Songs that I do. I have several friends like this. One of them is including Joe Cook, who I do my other podcasts with. But I don't know, everybody, what do you think? We're entering into an age where social media, it's, it's working less and less for people. Like, I'm finding that I can't get traction with sharing things on social media anymore. I don't know quite how to make it work. I think people are overwhelmed and anxious. They're sick of social media. They're distrustful of what it's done to them. They're tired of the, the animosity and the divisions and the debates that come up that are not healthy. And so it's funny, I have these relationships where I have real relationships with people I've never actually been in the same room with, and it's because of social media. And yet it's like I'm looking at it like we're at the end of the usage of it. It's gonna morph into something else. We'll figure things out.

But, uh, I don't know. I don't know quite what to do with that, but I'm grateful for the relationships that I have. That's point number 2.

Point number 3 is this: as you're listening to my conversation with Rick today, here's what I think is really fascinating about this. It's a guy, it's a person who's in the middle of change and transition. He is not where he once was. He has entered into training as a hospital chaplain. He used to just be a worship pastor and an artist and, you know, some— a minister, a teacher. Now he has— is considering a new field, becoming a chaplain. And by the way, I think I've said this before, but I was a chaplain in training and as a resident in a hospital setting for a year. And I was in the, I was in the same boat that he is in and will continue to be in. And I decided not to do it. It was not for me for various reasons that I will get into during the interview. Rick, though, is right in the middle of it. So he, so what I love about today's conversation is it's about somebody who is not where he once was And he's not quite to where he's going to be yet. He's, he's in this great, you know, year-long transition of his life of discernment, of new experiences, of being challenged in the midst of training. And then last point, last point that relates to all this is he's an artist. And so that's what our conversation is about today, this understanding of like the fact that I'm actually curious about this. Even my last interview with Joel Heng Hartzi is about what, what do we artists do when we have our other careers and we have our other pursuits? And so this interview, this conversation, is about this convergence of our artistic pursuits with these other things that we end up doing. Most of us can't just sit at home and make our art every day.

We have to do something else.

Myself, I have been a pastor, and I'm currently doing a lot of teaching. I teach for an online academy, Scholae Academy. Sign your kids up, I still have openings if you want your kids to learn some Middle Ages and Renaissance history and literature, along with American literature and history.

So that's what I do.

That's gonna be my day job. I don't podcast all day, I don't write all day. Well, anyway, hope you enjoyed this conversation with Rick Lee James about his new song, "As I Walk These Halls." Check the song out. And I hope you enjoy our conversation.

In the face of the rain, we can find the face of God. Give us eyes to see the holy ground we're on. Give us eyes to see the holy ground we're on.

As we walk these halls, So yeah, I spent a year in a residency, uh, you know, a CPE residency, and yeah, did the whole thing. You know, it was, it was a full-time job in that sense. And so what I'm curious about is what you've been doing, like what does it look like for you right now? And then I know you're going, you're going to jump into the residency. So maybe the first question is explain what, what you've been doing the past few months here or the past year.

All right, sure. Well, should I, should I start by explaining to anybody listening what CPE is?

Yeah, that's right. And this You know what, that's funny. That's funny because I've gotten into this conversation, uh, about like how there's just too many acronyms in the world in general. And so, yeah, like everybody's in their own field and they're like, they're all using these different acronyms and we're like, what are you talking about? So yes, yes, do it, explain it. That's hilarious.

Well, and, and I've, I've understood too that, you know, if you don't clarify it, like people think it's like a Certified Public account executive or something, you know, like different things on there. So, so, so first of all, as I, as I talk about my experience, CPE means Clinical Pastoral Education, as you know because you've done it. Um, and I'm doing it, um, through Kettering Health, which is a pretty large network of hospitals and, and places that care for people. So in essence, what I'm doing, it's— we could probably just call it chaplaincy training. In many ways. But it goes much deeper than what you would think, like in a training, because it actually requires—

in order to do it correctly, I think you really have to dive deep into yourself and come to know yourself a lot more deeply than you did before.

And I, I've always thought I was, you know, spiritually a pretty at least someone who tries to be pretty in tune. And yet what I have discovered is there are places in me I didn't know were hiding, you know. And there are places that I've found just over this summer that God has been doing some sometimes painful but always beneficial works inside of me that are still ongoing. So just to sum up what I've been doing this summer, I'm in a what's called a CPE intensive, a Clinical Pastoral Education intensive. So it's me and 9 other chaplains who we are at Kettering Health, and it's a 10-week program this summer.

And the reason it is an intensive is because it is pretty much every day of the week, and there's not a lot of downtime.

There's even time where you know, because I'm a music pastor at my church, there's times when I have to stay overnight at the hospital, sometimes 24, 48 hours, things like that. So I have to, you know, find ways for somebody to fill in for me at church while I'm doing that. But we're getting familiar not only with working in a hospital as a chaplain, but we're also in the classroom a couple days a week for, you know, roughly 8 hours per class, something like that.

So there's a lot of reading, A lot of writing, there's a lot of soul-searching and being pushed to go deeper, and it has been exhausting and wonderful at the same time.

So what that's leading into then is a residency which will start actually at the end of August. I graduate from my first unit of CPE at the beginning of August, August 12th, and then at the end of August I start a year-long residency where I'll be full-time, about 40 hours a week, working as a resident at the hospital. So I just found out this week that I was accepted into the residency program. So that's kind of, I guess, in a nutshell what I'm doing, and we can explore a little bit more about that and what it entails if you want. But that's kind of for people listening, that might be a little bit of an overview to kind of help understand.

Yeah, so I did a year-long residency, but in our summer we had a— we had, like you, we had a group. It was like only 4 students that came in. They did their summer intensive, so kind of that same thing. And so I kind of understand there's different ways of doing CPE. Some people break it up over many years. They get some credits, all that kind of thing. Many pastors, they only become a chaplain like maybe as an extra thing, or they There's different hybrid models to it. Some people, they end up— they end up— it becomes the thing, right? It becomes your career. You get certified, all that kind of thing. I know you're at the— you're kind of in the midst of it, but what are you— what are you thinking right now? I mean, you're— you're a church musician, you're an artist. Uh, I— I don't think I need to remind you that you're an artist, right? You know, it's like you're sitting here releasing a new song.

Uh, yeah.

Where do you think you're at in like discerning what you do?

Well, that's an excellent question, and maybe I should start with kind of how this all began for me. Would that be a good place to start?

And then just—

actually, you know what, you know what, start where you began, but I have one burning question. Talk to me about the 24-hour thing because I don't get it, because I never had to do a whole 24-hour shift. When you said that, like, I've been following your tweets, I'm like, are they torturing you? What is— what's going on? Because I had to do overnights, which bad enough, but this sounds intense, man. So just give me the details of that because I'm so curious, and then go into how it all started.

Sure. Yeah, well, what we do, it's basically a 24-hour on-call, but we have to be at the hospital for it. So about, you know, most of the day in the daytime, you're still kind of doing the duties of a chaplain, walking room to room, seeing people that need to be seen, and then you're there overnight as well. So we have like a sleep room we can go to, which you may or may not have a chance to, to use depending on if your pager is going off like crazy. Um, now last night was, was a 15-hour on-call for me, which I'm sure you did plenty of those.

Um, but yeah, last night was— it was tremendously taxing.

Like, it was one of those things where I thought the evening was going to start one way and it's like, oh, maybe I'll actually get some rest tonight, and then about 4:30 in the morning, the pager just, you know, so by the time between 4:30 and when I came home, you know, 2 deaths and sitting with families and, you know, just being there with them in the midst of their grief.

And one was a very surprising death, one was one that had been taking a while to get there, you know.

And so there's 2 different kind of scenarios happening and going on. So the 24-hour one And I almost did a 48-hour one, but, but I changed that, thankfully. But it's just basically you're on call for that entire time, and, and I'm responsible when I'm on call for, I think, 4 different hospitals. So if somebody needs something, you're, you're it, you know. So you kind of have to, to be ready to go whenever it's there. So you have to respond to each call within 20 minutes, and I live almost an hour away, so I have no other choice but to be like at the hospital.

So I don't like this. I don't— when I think about the setup, I go, oh, it's too much. Now, do you have a section of that time where you, where you are truly— you're rounding the halls, and then another section where you can theoretically get sleep, but it just depends on what the— when the call comes in?

Uh, kind of, yeah. Um, and I think every— I'm still kind of learning what to do and what not to do in those time frames. For me, like, I spent Last Saturday I spent about 15 hours without a break when I, you know, I got there at 8:30 in the morning and I started by just doing some rounds initially, but then it turned into, oh my, there's, there's a family member who, you know, is, looks like they are actively dying right now, so I need to go be with this family. Or I get a call from another floor. And so that weekend it was two families in the same ICU unit and I was kind of back and forth for hours on end, it felt like, checking on one family, going back to the other. And then really, it's just a ministry of presence. So you're, you're sitting with people and really doing more listening than anything, because we want to help people get in contact with their spirituality, which we really should talk about that too, like the difference between religion and spirituality, which will be a whole other thing. Um, but yeah, theoretically, they're you know, there's certain hours, like after 8, it's supposed to be kind of more quiet, so you can kind of maybe escape up to your room and, and the sleep room. And, and as long as you're not getting pages, you can have a little time to yourself. But it doesn't always work out that way.

So no, it doesn't.

Yeah.

And I, I didn't think our hospital, uh, you know, a minor complaint, it wasn't a great sleep room. I don't know, it wasn't, it wasn't that cushy. It was, there's a lot of clanging and it was hot all the time.

And yeah, well, thankfully ours, ours has just been remodeled, like in the midst of our— my doing my CPE, it's been being remodeled actually. And it's gone from being just kind of a almost rustic sleep room where they were, you know, still like literally painting the walls and putting carpet on the floor and things like that. But we have some wonderful people who have really— we're starting to call it the, the Grandview Hyatt now because I work at Grandview Hospital, and it used to be called Grandview, it's on Grand Avenue. But it's actually— I mean, it's not like a a hotel or something, but they've, they've done a lot to kind of make it comfortable for us and give us a little bit of an escape area for sure.

So that's nice. Yeah. So, so go into it, go into the, you know, how this started for you.

Yeah.

Well, and maybe I can kind of tell the journey. I'll try to tell it as succinctly as possible and lead into where this new song comes from because I am still doing an artist. So, um, so if if any of your listeners have heard me before, and maybe they have, maybe they haven't, if they've listened to some of the past episodes. But I've been recording music for some time now and traveling, doing concerts and things.

And last summer, uh, 2021, I opened up an email, and in that email, I don't know why I was subscribed to it or if it was spam or what it was, but in this email there was something about jobs available and it said chaplaincy.

Chaplains being looked for. I still don't know how I got on the list. I don't know what it was from. I think I deleted the email and was like, huh, oh well, uh, spam, you know. But for some reason, that word chaplaincy, which I had never even pondered before, it would not leave my brain.

And I was like laying awake at night and I just kept thinking, "Chaplaincy, chaplaincy, chaplaincy." Why am I thinking chaplaincy?

This is weird. And I thought like medical chaplaincy was all my mind went to. I've got plenty of friends who are military chaplains. I even have some friends who are corporate chaplains, but for my mind it was medical.

I didn't know why or quite understand.

So I started talking to my wife as I would pray, and I'd say, "I don't know why, but I think I'm supposed to look into chaplaincy for some reason. I don't know why. I don't even know what that entails, but I feel like in order to be obedient, I ought to at least look into what it is." So I called my friend David Dalt, who teaches at Loyola University, and the reason I called him was because when I did a search online for chaplaincy, Loyola University was like the first search result that came up for a place that does a master's degree where you can get it specifically for chaplaincy. And I remembered my friend David, who is a fellow podcast host, and he, he hosts Things Not Seen, and he also hosts the, the Mr. Rogers podcast that I do, Welcome to the Neighborhood. He kind of co-hosts that with me sometimes. And it occurred to me, well, I'll just call David. He works at Loyola, he could tell me what's up. So I talked with him and he said, "I think we need to pray about this together." He said, "It sounds like you're having God speak something to you and maybe you should pursue it." And he told me about how his wife had done chaplaincy. He told me about the good things that he's heard about, you know, the program that they have there. So long story short, I applied at Loyola and thinking I probably won't get in because they're kind of hard to get into Loyola and I wasn't I wasn't a terrible student back when I was in college, but I wasn't the greatest either. And I kind of thought, my GPA is probably not something they'll accept. And I figured, I'll try this, they'll say no, that'll be it. I've just been, you know, crazy, you know, I don't know. Wouldn't you know it, I got into Loyola University. I get the acceptance letter and I go, oh shoot, God.

Remind me, where are they located? Because I think of Chicago. Where did you go?

Chicago. There.

Okay.

That's where I'm at.

Yeah.

There's a number of— there's actually a number of Loyola universities around, but this one specifically, and this is specifically their Institute of Pastoral Studies at Loyola, they call it Loyola IPS.

And okay.

And are you a distant learner or do you travel back and forth?

Yeah, distant learner. Yeah. So I do online. So we gather kind of like we're doing now over Zoom, but we do it with a class.. So we do all the papers and things and reading, and I was so nervous when I started. Like, I did not want to go back to school. It had been at least 20 years since I was a college student. I was feeling pretty good about, you know, my doing music as a career and doing music pastor on the weekends, things like that. And I was so anxious, I was like in tears before my first class at Loyal. I was sitting in this very room where I'm sitting now thinking, God, you're gonna have to help me.

I have such anxiety, and I don't even get anxiety that much, but I was, I was scared. I mean, really scared.

Probably sounds silly to some people to think that, but I was.

And from my first class, Peter Jones, who is the dean there in that department, and he was my teacher for one of my first classes, he spoke and he said, you know, as we begin, he said, the main thing that we're doing here is we want to help you discern what it is that God is doing in your life and where he is taking you.

You know, and he said, I know some of you are here because you don't know even what that is right now, but we're here to help you find that, you know. And he put me so at ease. I mean, he said that to the whole class, but it felt like he was speaking straight to me because I— to quote Rich Mullins, I have quoted Rich Mullins again and again and again with Hard to Get, with the line that says, I'm lost enough to let myself be led. And that's truly how it felt. I just felt completely lost, not knowing where I was going, except I was trying to follow God on this journey. And I don't mean like lost bound for hell. I meant just like lost like Abraham. I don't know where you're sending me, God, but I have to go. So I did a year of classes, and they told me I needed to apply for this thing called CPE, which I had I had no idea what it was.

And so I did, and I got into the CPE program, which started this summer, which means, as we talked about, Clinical Pastoral Education.

And as I started the internship program, I thought, well, this will be a rough summer. It'll be 10 weeks, and I'll lose my entire summer, but then I'll get back and finish my degree at Loyola. And then I was told while I was in the summer intensive said, they said, you really should try out for the residency program because I knew I needed, you know, another year at least of CPE to graduate anyway. And they told me when I started, either you're gonna, you're gonna hate this at the end of summer and never want to do it again, or it'll be something that you can't get out of your system and you really need to go back and do more. And I thought, I don't know if I can skip, you know, a year of classes at Loyola because I won't have my I don't have my degree yet. And they said, well, talk to your, talk to your school, see what happens. So I talked to my school and they said, absolutely, if you get in the residency program, it's really hard to get into residency programs, and some of our students finished all their classes and then they can't get into residency programs to finish their degrees. So, so this is part of your schooling too, so if you get in, take it. So I applied and then I found out last week that I was accepted and And so I'm in the residency program now where I will be working as a chaplain for the next year starting at the end of August. So it'll go August to August. So I know I'm talking a ton, but let me get to the artist thing. I've been asking that exact question, where do I see myself now? Because this summer, I mean, I've done one concert, but I pretty much said I can't do anything else. You know, even that was stretching it. For me. I had to travel. But while I was away doing that concert, I wrote this song that's coming out as a single now, and I didn't expect that was going to happen. And then I recorded it at home, it all came together, and it sounds like it just— it basically sums up the process of CPE into a song, basically, is what I feel like. And that's what my instructors— I shared it with the class. I wanted to do it as as kind of a gift for my fellow classmates. And now the instructors have asked if they can use it in CPE training courses and things because they feel like it sums up kind of what the mission of CPE is together. And I was like, oh my goodness, what an honor. So I know that like Andrews University, they're gonna be using it. And I know some of the CPE programs around in Kansas City and different areas have already kind of let me know, yeah, hey, we're gonna be using your song. And you know, so it's a whole other kind of avenue now. I've never thought of having music through the medical community, but I've even played the song for like a nurse in my church, and she said, "This reminds me of what I do as a nurse. I always feel like I'm walking these halls looking for Jesus as I walk through and serve these patients and things." So I don't know, again, I still feel a little bit lost in the process.

Like I'm not sure where God's leading. But it's at the same time, I feel like I'm being born again, again, you know, like there's something new that is being birthed in my heart that is changing in me.

And I don't know where God's taking me, but I'm so grateful for the experience.

Well, let's talk a little bit. I'm curious on the convergence of this new thing you're doing with the arts. So let's go there first. And then I want to actually talk about some of the aspects of chaplaincy and what does it mean, like that whole difference between religion and spirituality, all that. I'm actually fascinated by that. There's a lot of tension in there for me about that. I'd like to explore that with you. Here's my question. This is a, you know, Post Consumer Reports. I like to talk about art and faith, right? So like, how do they come together? So, so Rick, you didn't actually have time to write that song. Like you didn't have time. You didn't have time to record it. You know, so like, isn't it interesting how art, like I have all these stories that I'm working on and I'm just trying, I'm always grappling to find time to get to the stories. Writing projects and stuff. So I mean, I guess maybe I'm partially wondering, like, did you— was it unwise? How do you, how do you weigh that in and out? It's like, you know, you're doing these overnight shifts, you're tired. How do you— how did you make that decision to be like, you know what, I've got to record this, I got to get this done? Walk me through that.

Okay, well, honestly, it happened for me. It started on while I was on an overnight shift and I was just finishing up my shift. That's good. And I brought a guitar with me to the hospital just to leave there. A friend had gifted me this guitar a few years ago, and it's not the best guitar, but it's not the worst, but it was one I felt like I'd be comfortable leaving in a hospital. And I knew some of my fellow chaplains actually played guitar too, and it was something I thought, well, maybe this would be just a nice outlet, you know, if they have a few down minutes and they need to play some music. So I told everybody, I'm gonna leave this guitar here in our office. So if any of you need it for a patient or if you just want to play, use it. So at the end of one of my overnight shifts, I think it was my very first overnight shift actually, I just sat down with my guitar, just tired, waiting on my shift to end. I had maybe 30 minutes or something and I was waiting on the other chaplains to get there. And I just started kind of strumming out the bones of what this song would become. You know, just kind of—

you know, just kind of—

I don't know how else to describe it. It's like double stops on a guitar is what I was doing. Then I just kind of started thinking, huh, kind of digging, you know, how this is sounding. And the song is called "As I Walk These Halls," and I just started kind of humming out some music to it. You know, and then, as I walk these halls, you know, I thought that might be kind of a good hook for a chorus. And so I recorded on my phone like 15 seconds of just like an idea, and I thought maybe one day when this is all over I'll go back to it. And then next thing I knew, I went upstate in Ohio, about, you know, 3 hours away from where I lived to do this concert that I had already told them I would do. And I got there and they put me up in a nice little inn and I just couldn't get it out of my mind overnight. So I was literally up during the night when I should have been sleeping or reading or writing a paper or something and I couldn't get the song to stop. And I just started writing down things and in, I don't know, in about 2 hours, which is which is not characteristic for me. It usually takes a lot longer to write a song.

By the time I had about 2 hours of work on it, I basically had the song written and I recorded it.

And I was trying to record it softly so I wouldn't wake up, 'cause it was kind of a little, almost like bed and breakfast, so there's people in other rooms and down below and the walls weren't thick, you know?

So—

Yeah, Rick Lee James wailing in the middle of the night in a cute little bed and breakfast.

Yeah.

You need to hear my new song.

That's right, that's right. Getting kicked out of the bed and breakfast for—

yeah, that wasn't the plan. Yeah, so yeah, no, it was—

no, it went, it went well, but I was being as quiet as I could be. Yeah, I recorded it. So yeah, and I, and I recorded it and I played it for my wife and I actually shared it with a couple other chaplains, just this rough demo. And, and they were like, wow, that, that really like kind of sums up what we're doing here. And I thought, well, if I have time I'll try to, you know, record a little bit of this. And it takes me forever to record stuff.

I have a studio in my home here, but it just, it just takes time.

And especially when you're doing it all yourself. And I just started recording it at night whenever I was home and I wasn't doing an overnight, after everybody went to bed. And I would just spend a little bit of time here, a little bit of time there. Within about a week I had it recorded and I played all the instruments, sang all the parts, everything except drums because I'm not really a drummer, and I had a friend record some drums on it. But yeah, it just happened. It was kind of inside of me and I needed to get it out. And it actually, to me, sonically, it's like one of the best sounding songs I feel like I've ever recorded. And the message of it, I think, hits so well with what I was trying to say, but I feel like it could work in a lot of different contexts. So the artist side of me, I was again, I think, just trying to be obedient to what I was hearing because it's not like you just have a lump of clay and then it appears. You do have to kind of work at it and get it to form. But for me, it felt like another confirmation that what I was doing was the right thing because I thought there's been a few times in my life where ministry has happened, and I thought, am I supposed to give up music to do this new thing? And it almost felt like a confirmation for me, like, no, you're not supposed to give it up. This is supposed to be sort of in addition to, and maybe I'm even going to use it in the midst of what you're doing type thing.

So I think we should be careful as artists to go like, I'll do this, but I won't do that, and I'll go this far, but I won't do this other thing. Because it could be that we're saying, in the midst of what God might be birthing in us, we might say to God, no, I'm not going to do that, when God's saying, oh no, this is going to take you to a whole new place that you've never been with me and with the people around you. And so that's kind of my experience.

So I hope that maybe answers the question a little bit.

It is.

And I mean, maybe what I'm thinking is, is, you know, you could have done an acoustic version and that could have been enough, right? That could have sufficed. But something in you drew drove you a little bit further, like, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this. You know, one of the things that I would— maybe one of the ways I would characteristically call your— some, some of your music is kind of like roots rock, maybe a little bit. Uh, yeah, I mean, some, some of your stuff reminds me a little bit of Tom Petty, but that's, that's my realm of things, right? So I don't know where you, you might— I interviewed you before, but I can't remember all your other influences. But, but yeah, but maybe, maybe, maybe there's an acoustic demo version of this, but you want— you went in, man. You went, you went for the full studio stuff. So that's cool. It's just cool.

Yeah, in fact, I kind of thought it was just going to be a little acoustic thing too, and then it turned it up. It ended up being like almost— it's like there's like 4 different electric guitar parts, there's an organ, there's bass, and then I just put a very simple strummed acoustic in the background. You could hardly even notice it. It's there. I thought, what in the world? You know, which— that's the other part of it that kind of felt almost— I'm not going to say miraculous, but it was amazing. How it came together, because when you're working with different guitar tones and things and trying to get it just right, it doesn't always— it doesn't always go as planned when you go in. Matter of fact, I had spent, I don't know, months and months working on another song that was pretty much electric guitar, kind of rock-driven, and I still haven't— I still haven't gotten it together like the way I want it. I would— I would never release it in the form it is right now. So the fact that The fact that the writing of the song took place over a couple of hours, and then within a week I was able to record it and get it mastered, and then even have a drummer. Like, this is another part of it which was interesting.

The engineer for this project at Paraphonic Recordings, his wife was just about to have a baby, and it was going to be any day.

And he was like, well, if we don't do it right now, like, you know, the baby's gonna gonna be here. So that was even kind of a driving factor, like there's just been no time to do this at all, and yet somehow it got done. So I'm thanking God for all the help that happened that was not of me.

I just felt like there was—

honestly, it felt like divine intervention helping things to happen that I couldn't have orchestrated.

So I'm grateful for that.

And that's not to say that I think this song is like a divine gift to the world or something something that it's going to change, you know, whatever. But for me, it was just sort of, again, confirmation in my life that God was doing something and working in me.

I think God shows up in those small things.

So even if it's just you and me and your podcast listeners who hear the song, it's still a confirmation for me that God was working in my life at the moment.

Moving down the halls, praying with each step I take in these hospitable halls. Being quick to listen, slow in what I say. God, please let a word that's heard come from you today. And I wonder, where will you be found today? In the healing of a sinner, in the suffering of a saint, every soul that I will meet today is a soul that Christ adores. Every living human document is a letter from the Lord. In the sickness and the suffering, we can find the face of God. Give me eyes to see the holy ground I'm on.

As I walk Lately I've been really immersed in Tolkien a lot, and one of his big concepts is sub-creation. So we are put on earth to be sub-creators, and I, I, what I, all I mean to say is, is it's, it is our job to bring things forth into the world, into the world, to create more beauty, more meaning, to make connections with people. So I mean, on one hand, yeah, there's that danger of saying, I received this from God and now you have to listen to it or whatever. I mean, yeah, there's a danger to that. But there's the other thing over here, which is like, we've been given this holy task, but all of us have. Even if it's just like, you know what, I built a beautiful home for my family. Well, that's a form of sub-creation, you know? So I don't know, like, you know, the song, you worked at your craft. Now it's up to us to engage with it. So you've given the gift to the world, you know.

Yeah, well, I hope it— I hope it's received as a gift. Yeah, that's, that's, that's a good way to put it though. Yeah, I appreciate the sub-creators.

I love that.

And I love creating too.

Yeah, there you go. I have a quick— I have another quick question about, about the artistic side of your life. Uh, you've put out a couple of singles since your last album, Thunder, is that correct? And so, and I know it's like, I mean, we're living life, it's tough. And, and so what, what are you thinking on that end in the sense of Are you chipping away at another album eventually? But this next year of your life, you're going to be taken up with, with CPE and chaplaincy.

Yeah.

What are you thinking about that?

Um, yeah, I'm kind of thinking I'll, I'll keep probably releasing music kind of like this, maybe a song at a time rather than an album. And, and partially because I'm finding too, even now when I play concerts, where it used to be, um, that I would sell like a ton of CDs whenever I would finish a concert and by tons I don't mean like hundreds or a literal ton, I just mean there would be several that you would sell and it was worthwhile having CDs on the table. I found that now I still sell a few, but more often than not people come up to me and say, "This is on Spotify, right?" Or, "This is on iTunes or Apple Music." And I'll go, "Yeah." And they say, "Okay, I'll listen to it there." And I'm even fine with that.

You can really snarkily say, "If you want, you can just give me a dime right now if you want to do it." Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. That's right.

Yeah, I have this, I have this, you know, kind of love-hate relationship. I know, streaming services. Because on the one hand, you know, if I just sell an album to you, it's $10. But if you stream it and keep streaming it, you know, I keep getting, you know, money perpetually. So I might get $10 a month for a while, you know, like things like that. So I have— yeah, there's this whole other side.

The downside of it is like the last album I did Thunder.

I've got all these albums that I haven't sold, and partially because of the pandemic and not being able to travel. And so they're like all these brand new fresh, you know, vinyls and CDs, and they're just gonna probably sit there forever, you know, like that, because, because I only sell them when I go out on the road, which is less than less. Occasionally people buy them from the website, but almost exclusively people are streaming.

So I have more streaming audience, I think I do, than what I actually do in concert anymore. So I think just right now anyway, it makes more sense.

And I'm probably having a little bit more fun doing it this way, just kind of maybe do a song at a time.

New, but the ancient roads are calling you. Yeah, the same old love is crying out to you. Say it! Where there is hatred, let us love. Where there is doubt, let us trust. Where there is cursing, let us bless. Let us bravely walk through the shadow of death.

We're almost back in the era again like it used to be when they put out vinyl singles, you know, back in— what was it, the '50s or whenever? And there's an A song, A-side and a B-side, you know, and those are the two songs you initially get until an album comes together. So it almost feels like we're in that age of You know, you can just do a single and that's fine. People listen to that single. And how often do people buy the album for the one song anyway, you know? So to me, it feels a little bit more fresh to keep putting it out when it's fresh with you and when you're doing it. Like this one, being able to write it and release it within a month, you know, is kind of like unheard of if you were doing an album because it takes so much time to get all of it together and So we'll just see. That's probably my plan right now though, unless someplace like Lifeway contacted me again and was like, "Hey, we want to do another album," and we'll do it, but that's probably not going to happen this next year. So I'll just do it as I have time and see what God opens up in the middle of what I'm doing, I guess.

Man, that's a remarkably good answer. I mean that to say it's It's just like the way that artists, all of us, we have to navigate moment by moment, kind of just like, okay, you know, what's the pathway now type of question. So, all right, let's talk about Chaplaincy by kind of talking about the song in itself. Now, again, I don't have all the lyrics in my head, but boy do I get like your fellow classmates, your people, it's like, hey, this really defines what we're doing. So yeah, maybe here's my first question that really is kind of a lead-in to the whole religion versus spirituality thing. I loved chaplaincy, but then there was all these elements to me that were unsatisfying. And, and it was, it was kind of exactly where you're going. It's the beauty and also the, the tension of like Oh boy, how do I describe this? You go into a room, you see, you try to discern what type of story this person has, what are their belief systems, uh, or lack of belief systems. And so my main job was to let them unfold their lives before me. And maybe some of the aspects that I found unsatisfying was like I couldn't really be a counselor or I couldn't write them a paper. You know, I couldn't, I couldn't like, like, I guess I struggled with it is what I'm trying to tell you is there's kind of an in-between nether region of being a chaplain where you, where you don't have a whole lot of control and you kind of just be what people need you to be in the moment. And this does relate to religion and spirituality in that sense because I mean, I don't know about you, I grew up evangelical. We're always like witnessing and sharing our faith and I've let go of that need to do that. But at the same time, chaplaincy was maybe a little bit too much in the, in the neutral ground for me. How have you done? How have you been wrestling with any of that?

For me, it's been freeing, uh, I will have to say, in many ways.

And I want to say it like this— I wish I could remember the reference, but there's a reference in, I want to say it's 1 Thessalonians, where it says we no longer have It says something like, "If a ministry of condemnation was so great, how much more is a ministry of righteousness?" Or how much greater is that?

And this idea that chaplaincy is a ministry not of condemnation. It's one where we're coming in to be present, to listen, and in some ways we get to seek a Matthew 25 sort of spirituality in that 'Whatever you've done to the least of these, you've done it unto me.' You know, and so when I walk into the room, for me, the freeing part of it is I'm not walking in to like share the gospel. I'm walking in first of all to maybe see Jesus in the room in a way that I would not see Jesus before, and then help that person discern in whatever way they need to discern what it is that's bringing them meaning in that moment. As a person who follows Jesus, I tend to look at that scripture passage that says, you know, "No one comes to the Father except through me," when Jesus says that, I tend to look at that less as like a person has to say a prayer in the name of Jesus or else they're not right. I tend to look at that more as Jesus is is so transcendent, and Christ in who he is, is so transcendent and so all around, that when a person experiences God, because we know that God is love, and we believe as Christians that we experience the image of the invisible God in Jesus, that Jesus is so present with us in those moments, whether the person can even name it in that moment, I believe it's Christ. Who is there offering new life, offering new meaning. And so almost like if we would walk into some tribe far away that's never heard the gospel, and you say, "Can that be someone who receives God?" I think yes, because I believe that Jesus is that big, you know, and that holistically. So they may not have language for it at the time. We may not even talk about things that sound spiritual in the moment. But as we start discovering what is it that brings meaning in your life, where are you finding meaning, what's helping you right now as you're facing this, I mean, whatever it is, you've got cancer all through your body, what's bringing you meaning right now? How are you getting through this? Can you tell me more about that? And I think in the middle of that, it's been freeing for me to look for Jesus in those places.— and I had a little bit of a—

I had to be confronted a little bit to change my thinking of like— I think I thought at first, I'm gonna be Jesus walking into that room.

I get to be the presence of God walking in there. And maybe I do sometimes. Maybe God uses me that way. But I think more often than not, getting back to that Matthew 25 sheep and the goats thing, I'm there to observe the way that Jesus is present in those suffering people that I encounter, in their families, in the staff, you know. So for me, the freeing part is seeing Christ in places I may not have seen Christ before, you know.

And now it's like I'm looking for Christ everywhere, you know. Rich Mullins again: "Everywhere I go, I'm looking," you know.

So I can understand the frustrating part.

I get that.

But right now I'm feeling the freedom of it. You know, I'm feeling like it's so good to know, like, as I walk in this room today, I'm not here to convert this person.

I'm here to just kind of be like a person on the boat that's steering the rudder, and hopefully I'm just a companion on the journey to whatever God's gonna do today in the midst of this situation. You know, does that make sense at all? Is it making sense?

Oh man, it makes total sense. I think maybe my tension or my juxtaposition has to do with individual gifting. And for me, it was kind of two factors. And these are two things that I've learned about myself in recent years. I've always known that I'm an introvert and I've known that. But what, what chaplaincy really helped bring home to me is that sometimes conversation after conversation after conversation, I'm just a bit too depleted. Like, and so if I'm going to be depleted, then it's not good for me. I can't bring these people what they need, right? So, so there's that aspect. I'm curious if you have any reflections on that. My, my other aspect is— I, I'm, I'm still trying to wrap my head around this, so I don't really know what I'm saying. I'm just kind of like pondering this— is sometimes I feel like I have more of a prophetic gifting. And so that, that in-betweenness of chaplaincy kind of irritated me as a chaplain. Even if I didn't want to just come in and convert anybody like that, I was okay with that. Like, I didn't really feel the need to do that anymore. I had moved past it. But there's something about the prophetic nature where you're like, you feel like these things you need to say. Now, I'm not denying that chaplains can certainly be prophetic, but it's just a matter of like discerning through our own giftings is kind of what I'm trying to say. And so I think I struggle with that. And so there's a part of me that I was like, I've realized hospital chaplaincy isn't really for me. But guess what? I respect all the people I worked with that year because I'm just like, you people are amazing, you know?

So yeah, no, you know what? And I get that because I've always been one that said, you know, like, I never see being a senior pastor, you know, like— there you go, like, yeah, something like that, as a preacher. Like, and I— it's not that I don't I don't respect it and love it and appreciate the art. And it's not even that I don't preach from time to time or that I'm even closed off to it. Like, if God did another thing 10 years from now and was like, "Senior pastor," like, you know, like you did with chaplaincy. Yeah, I know that in obedience, if that was something I was feeling like I was being called to, then I need to do it.

But for me right now, like you're saying, I feel like everybody has different leanings, and every chaplain is a a pastor, but I don't know that every pastor is a chaplain, you know. And that might be a better way to look at it. For me, it has been— again, it's been life-giving, meaning-giving, and I've been finding some new ways to experience God in the people that I'm with. And so I totally understand it.

I'm in with a group of people, and this is not a slam against my other chaplains at all. Matter of fact, I admire that some of them know exactly what they want to do and what they don't want to do. And some of them are just there because it's credit that they need for their degree, you know. And they've said from the beginning, and they haven't changed their mind, you know, like, I'm here because I need 3— or I need a unit of CPE to graduate, you know, and I'm here in this course of study and I need to do this.

And yet that doesn't mean they're not great at what they're doing.

Like, they're there and they're, they're really embracing embracing the experience, but they know, you know, kind of like you, it's not something that I think I want to do long-term or anything.

And they're going to be actually wonderful in whatever field God leads them to, I know. But for them, they know it's not chaplaincy, you know. For me, I'm still not— I don't know where God's taken me in all this, but I know that it didn't feel complete at the end of this summer., and I felt like I need to pursue more where it's going. I think it's going to ultimately end up with me doing chaplaincy beyond this next year, and you know, the degree that I'm getting, I think I'm gonna end up— I mean, who knows what aspect. I'm finding that there are so many areas of chaplaincy you can be a part of, but I never realized the richness that could be there and even the creativity that could be unlocked and even the moments of finding God in new ways. I feel like this is the best ministry I've done in 20 years, honestly, and it feels so good. And it doesn't mean it's not hard. I don't remember if I mentioned it like when we started today, but this morning started out with the 4:30 AM, my pager went off, you know, and I was bleary-eyed and I'm like, I can't even think right now. I'm so I was so tired, and yet there was a family that, you know, they just lost a loved one in the ER. And I mean, it was shocking, it was unexpected, and yet I needed to be there for that. And then that was quickly followed by another death, you know, with another group of people. And you would think I would come home and be like, I never want to go back there again.

That's—

this is too taxing, it's too tiring. Wearing, and yet for some reason I'm invigorated. Like, it's not that I love the death part, I really don't, but my goodness, what an honor to be able to walk with these families in this time and to be that person that gets to be there. And the side of me that does want to say, like, there are those moments when I do feel like I get to be God's sort of presence in the room, and in those moments like sometimes as I look for people in the hospital beds, it does work the other way sometimes too, where I think I get to be what they need, hopefully, in that moment. And sometimes, sometimes it's like this. There have been times where a family has no religious leanings at all, okay? And I've walked in the room and they've locked lost a loved one and they were so angry. I mean, I mean, ready to— like, sometimes they probably want to just punch me in the face. And, and honestly, we'd probably both feel better if they did, you know.

It'd probably help them, and I'd feel like, okay, at least I did something here, um, you know.

But, but there are times, I think, and I've seen this once or twice, where I needed to be for them to show them that like, God can take it. If you need to yell at me and scream at me right now, and I need to be God's person in the room for that, like, let that come at me, you know, in that moment. And, and I've seen it at times where that happens initially, and that opens them up to be softened later, you know, because in that moment, I mean, where else can we go in those times of crisis? Crisis, sometimes we're scared to let all that fury out at God. And yet if we can be sort of that person that's there even to receive that anger on that end— like, I didn't know what to do with that at first. Now I understand, like, oh, maybe that's my place here with that. I get to help this person do that. And I won't go into tons of details because we're not allowed to do that anyway, but I have seen beautiful moments, birth of that in people's lives, where they might look back in 10 years and go, you know what, where that day that was the darkest day of my life where I lost my dad as a child, I look back now and I see that hospital and the way that they were there and loved me, and it wasn't all bad memories, you know. I'm looking back and I'm seeing maybe that was the first time I experienced Jesus in my life was that day, you know, 10 years back. Maybe they're going into the CPE program themselves 20 years from now and they're going, you know what, I'm here today because somebody stepped in and said, I love you and I'm so sorry. Sorry, I'm getting a little emotional.

It's okay.

But, but in the midst of it all, like, you know, God, God's working in those places. And I think when we talk about, like, when we find God in the suffering, when he promises he'll be revealed there, like, it's real. We do find Jesus in those places. Or maybe he finds us, you know, maybe that's the more accurate way of putting it. But sorry, I'm getting choked up a bit, but it's a good joke.

Yeah.

So yeah, you know what, let's— you know, you are getting choked up, so like, let's— I want to do a little reflection as we, you know, come kind of come in here to close. About what this process does for us when we're going through it. So here's my example. I had this moment during my chaplain residency where there was this conflict. There was a misunderstanding and there was a conflict between myself and some other chaplains. You know, it created a situation and it had to be resolved. And my CPE instructor, he sat me down at one point And it was, it was fine, you know, like, it wasn't just me being, being upset or anything. It was, it was a whole thing that we all together needed to deal with. But my instructor, he sat me down and he said, hey, do you think you're an anxious person? And I said, and then my brain, my first reaction is like, no, what are you talking about? And, and so that was a moment for me of a way of like CPE allowed me to see myself and go, oh, I've been anxious the whole time. I've been carrying these things with me, not just during CPE, but when I say the whole time, like my whole life. And it's caused me to do like, I am still like, it's, it's opened up these things about my own life and ministry and just dealing with people like leadership, church leadership, business, whatever it happens to be. Like, I see the world differently now because every time something happens, I'm thinking like, what is going on internally and why am I reacting the way that I'm reacting? And so the process hasn't stopped, right? So I'm still— it's still happening every time. Like, now when I think about anxiety, I laugh because I go, yep, I'm an anxious person. Okay, what do I do about it? Like, okay, what's my step today regarding me being anxious? And that's just that's just one sliver, right? You know, anxiety. But there's other parts too, right? So I'm curious, what's— give us a glimpse right now of how this is shifting you and opening you up.

Well, I'm coming to understand that we all have anxieties, um, and it's not like anxiety is not a good or bad thing. It's just something we have, you know, and sometimes it's higher than others and sometimes it's lower, but it's always there. In some ways. So in some ways, like, there's a good anxiety about sitting down with a podcast today and like, oh, what's going to happen?

You know, we don't know exactly where it's going to take us, but hopefully it's someplace good that'll be used.

Uh, for me, I think if I'm understanding your question, you're kind of asking where I am right now.

Um, is that—

you know, it's almost like— it's almost like, so yeah, you're out there doing this ministry, but then there's the work that's being done on you Yeah, like, so for example, one of my teachers, he would always talk like— he would say, I would bring up something about my father and he would be like, it sounds like your dad's walked into the room with us right now. And so am I reading my father onto this patient that I'm with, right? So I'm seeing an older man and then how does my relationship with my father reflect how I treat this patient? And so, so those kind of those continual self-process that I— is there something along those lines? What about you?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you do.

You walk in and you see family members, you see friends, you see people, you know, like they're not literally in the bed, but they're there, you know, in the room with you in those times. I think for me it's been, you know, I'm grateful that I have instructors that have like enforced in us like you need to have goals when you're doing that you're working on.

So for me, like, my personal goal is first of all, like, what do I need to discover? What gifts do I have that are not musical necessarily? Because I've relied on music for so long. I don't want to say a crutch, but kind of a crutch, you know?

Like, I've for years labored under this, what I think might be a delusion now.

I even say that tentatively, but the delusion being that I'm probably not good at anything else. Like, I don't have any other gifts, you know.

I can't, you know, build a deck for you or paint your house, or, you know, I'm like, I mean, I could, but you wouldn't want it, you know. Like, it wouldn't be— it wouldn't be a gift to you.

Um, but it's, it's forced me, like, for my personal goal, to look into, like, what are some actual giftings that, that you have, you know, that, that God's working on you. And And so I've discovered a few things about myself I didn't know. But then, interpersonally, one of my goals has been, you know, to become a more active and present listener. So I find that I've started to listen differently. You know, I've started listening to my family differently. I've started realizing how much I'm not hearing. And for the longest time, you know, how often has my wife wife said, "Are you even listening to me right now?" And the fact is, you know, I needed to be more attentive, and I still need to learn how to be more attentive. But then there's a spiritual goal, this educational goal, that's a theological goal, which is kind of deep in my heart as well as in my brain. For me right now has been, where is God in the suffering? You know, where are we finding God in the And I've discovered suffering isn't just what happens to a person. We have these sources of suffering that, like, you know, if a person has a leg amputated, they know the source of their suffering is, "I've just had a loss." But what do we do with the suffering that we don't know what's causing it?

Like, there's something in us psychologically, things that are hurting, like we don't know why. Suffering right now.

I'm in such despair and I don't understand why I'm in despair today. You know, there's a suffering that's there. Sometimes it's self-inflicted and things. So what I'm discovering is lots of things about me and things about the world around me, you know, and I'm discovering that in suffering. And I'm starting to uncover things I haven't really thought about before, like like the other side of sin, you know. Like, what about— I'm reading a book by a friend of mine, Brent Peterson, right now that's about— it's called The Other Side of the Cross, and it's about what about— what does the cross of Jesus have to say not for those who need their sins forgiven, but for those people who have been sinned against, those who have been victims, and those who are abused, and it's not enough for me to go to them and say, "Hey, you need your sins forgiven." Because to them they're like, "Man, I just got raped. Why do I need my sins forgiven? I was sinned against.

I mean, the cross may have something to say to my abuser, but what's it say to me, the abused?" You know, in the midst of all that.

So for me, my heart and my brain are being unlocked to some uncomfortable places. Places that are good to deal with, you know, in those things. Like, what does atonement mean for those who have been abused and victimized?

But I'm probably going way off of the initial question, you know, but it's where my brain and heart are right now.

Right. Yeah. And again, so I think the majority of the cases when we walk into a room with a patient is there, they are kind of the both/and, meaning like, they're going to be a little bit of that victim, and they're going to be a little bit of that abuser, or, you know, what, and I don't really necessarily mean to say abuser, but, you know, they've carried with them their family relationships. And so they're holding a lot in tension. And so the chaplain is doing this balancing act, right? Of being gracious to this person, giving them this opportunity to do a turn or to open up their heart to God, whatever it happens to be, even just to love, the love of their family, you know? 'Cause you find people that are near death and they're not reconciled with their families. And, and, you know, it's— anyway, so yes to all of that. Yeah, I, I resound with it. But I'm also seeing like, all right, I understand why I'm not doing it. Um, because sometimes it was a lot for me to carry with me. My, my wife has had a lot of health issues over the years and, and, uh, some stuff, health issues with our kids. And so sometimes, depending on where we're at in life, we're not always in a good place ourselves to be the care that people need. And so that's, that's, that's part of been my own self-discernment.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. What I was going to say, maybe, maybe we can kind of close the conversation on this if it's all right with you. Um, I, I just want to make the distinction one more time too, so it's real clear to everybody about like the difference between spirituality and religion when we talk about that. Yeah, there— people think they're the same thing, but they're kind of like distant cousins, you know, in some ways.

Like, and to me, and what I'm learning, and this is something that I learned during this time, is our spirituality, we often think of it as like, ooh, spirit, like, you know, something almost otherworldly. And, you know, like we have to sit and, you know, shut our eyes and chant and something, you know, to get into a spiritual mind frame. But what I have discovered is what most people mean by spirituality is it's the place where they find meaning and the place where meaning in their life— they may not realize it, but it's probably a divine place. You know, it's probably a place that God is speaking to them even if they don't realize it, acknowledge it, but it's something that for them really gives them life and meaning and help, you know. So for some people, um, you're gonna find like going outside—

that's why some people say like, oh, nature is my sanctuary or something.

For them it probably is, you know. Like if that's something that they really find meaning in and something unlocks for them there, um, they're gonna go out and be like, that's gonna do more for them than an hour in church on Sunday morning. The The difference being that for many people, the way that they will kind of live out their discipleship, or they'll live out that spirituality, is something that they'll find in faith. So it might be that in Christianity they find a lot of real meaning behind that, and they'll find it in churches. But sometimes churches get in the way of our spirituality too, sometimes.

Because it's like we come in and say, "This is about a relationship between you and God." And they go, "Oh, cool, great, you know, I find God so much in this." And then the church goes sometimes, "Well, no, you're not supposed to find God in that. You have to find him in this hymn book and in this," you know, things like that. So if that makes any sense at all. But I discovered, like, I had something hit me so hard last week.

Like, people find meaning in so many different places. And they may not know what to call it, but that's partly our job as sort of like pastors and chaplains and people who kind of help to steer the rudder a little bit of the boat, is we might get to steer them into understanding what that thing is to draw them to a deeper place with God. So it hit me the other day, like, why do I find so much meaning in the comic book shop that I go to?

You know, like it hit me.

And why do so many other people find like, you know, they'll go to the comic book store week after week, it's like a religion, you know? They go and they pick up the new books that are coming through. And it didn't hit me until the other day I was in class and we were talking about spirituality and meaning-making, and it hit me.

And I even had to tell my retailer about this, who I'm friends with at the local comic shop.

I said, I said, do you realize the care that you're offering to people? Like, you probably don't even realize this is almost like a spiritual practice for people when they come in here because they're grabbing these stories. And, you know, you mentioned Tolkien a little while ago. That's a place a lot of people find very deep meaning. You know, for many Christians, that's like, we see the gospel in that, you know, uh, even if they don't know how to explain it, that once they see something about got it in there. So I told my local shop owner, who is not a Christian and not a believer, but I said, do you understand, like, the care you're giving and the way that you are actually helping to feed people's spirituality as they walk in this door? Like, and I'm not—

and that's not to say that everybody that's writing is spiritual, but the people that are receiving it are receiving something.

Maybe these stories about heroes are feeding something in their heart that they need to know about themselves. There's this greater good behind it. Like, why would I want to self-sacrifice for somebody? What is that saying about me that I long to read stories about people who are laying down their lives for others?

You know, things like that. So I hope that kind of makes sense.

For me, it was like revelatory. Like, wow, the comic shop could be almost this spiritual retreat for many people, and they don't know why they're drawn there. But if we can kind of point the rudder a little bit, it may not be so far off where we go, "You know why I think you're experiencing such meaning in this right now?" Or in nerd culture or whatever, it's because you're being fed something that is deep in your heart, you know, like that you don't even realize you're needing right now, but it's there, you know.—

and so does that make any sense at all? I'm hoping it makes sense to people listening today.

It absolutely does. And I mean, because yeah, because I think it's a— I think what we want is the both/and. And here's what I mean by that. Like, in modern culture, too much entertainment has become kind of a problem in the sense of it's just something we zone out to. And so for me, the element is, is how— like comic books, how do we allow to be transformative. And so what you're actually doing, and this is interesting that you're doing this, is you're seeing something that other people wouldn't even see is there. And so you're kind of asking that extra question. It's like, hey, did you notice this about comic books? And they're like, they're like, huh? You know, like, but it's the beginning of that question, right? And so I think that's the fun thing to explore. I mean, another person might say, you know what, I just like to gargle. Garden, and then they don't, they don't see that the spiritual— there's like this amazing spiritual element to garden, to gardening. Um, so whatever it happens, even— I mean, I, I do not like to work on cars, like I have no interest in it, but the challenge would be like, this is actually a beautiful thing, you know, like whatever it might be. And that's kind of what I see you pointing us to.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, there was a person the other day I talked to in the hospital, just loved And when I started talking about fishing to him, he came alive. Like, it was like, "Oh, I love it. Like, I can't wait to get out of here and go fish again and do this and take my grandkids and spend time with my best buddies." And, you know, it was just like, for him, it was that place that he finds meaning.

And, you know, if you— you don't have to dig too deep with Jesus to understand the connection with fishermen. You know, it's kind of right there, like, literally in print.

Well, that's the thing that you You could do that thing that you could be like, well, you know, our Lord was a fisherman. You could really do that.

And there's the temptation to do that, but what I'm finding most interesting, and to me this is even like reinforcing my faith in ways that I needed, was I don't even have to say that sometimes because they're experiencing something there that God's working on them about. And sometimes all I'm doing is making the suggestion to where they can find this new meaning and like, "Huh, I didn't know I needed a chaplain today, but I guess I did.

Maybe there's something more to this that I need to understand." So it's a powerful thing. I think to me, maybe if I could sum it up, chaplaincy is teaching me to trust God in enough to not open my mouth and to not make noise and to trust that if we will just show up, that God will do something. You know, like, even if we don't show up, God will, but we get to be a part of watching what God is doing. And that's how truly remarkable it is that God is actively in the world and doing things. And I think it's a reminder that each of us kind of know this. Like, we, we get it drowned out a lot by all the noise around us, but, but we do kind of—

we will find it, you know, if, if we can connect with those parts of us.

We can find those spiritual areas that are important and, and that are needed. And I think that God's speaking to us through—

so yeah, but yeah, but I, you know what, I probably ought to go here pretty soon.

I'm—

I don't want— I don't want to end on a weird note today, but this has been a rich conversation for me, and you've even helped me to process some things today, and I really appreciate it.

So yeah, you know, you can turn this in for an assignment.

Yeah, there you go, Rick.

I appreciate your time and just your openness to be able to discuss these things, reflect on them, and thanks for the— thanks for the new song. Uh, we're gonna— we're gonna put out there into the world.

So thank you for sharing it with your listeners. I really appreciate it. We're— you know, I'm not really doing much in the way of marketing for this other than just a little bit on social media and good friends like yourself that are generous enough to offer a forum to say, hey, maybe this will be something that you could use. But I—

that's such a gift, and I really appreciate you giving me that gift by allowing me to share not only the song but my life.

So I hope all your listeners will enjoy As I Walk These Halls, and we'll stream it like a million times, and that would be great. So that'll help me Help me cover the expenses of being in school.

So there you go.

Oh, thanks, Rick. I appreciate your time.

Thank you.

All right, everyone, Rick Lee James, "As I Walk These Halls." Check out his other songs as well.

He has these great singles. I particularly like his recent song "Shine a Light in the Darkness," which you can— I, I play in an excerpt of during this podcast. So enjoy his songs, enjoy his older album Thunder.

You know, hey, go buy that on vinyl. From what I gathered during this interview, he has some copies of that left on vinyl, on CD.

Go check that out and, uh, let's listen to him. And, uh, as you wait for upcoming Post Consumer episodes, I wish you well, have a great week, and happy post-consuming.

Give us eyes to see the Holy Ground we're on as we walk these halls. As we walk these halls. As we walk these roads.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, Follow my blog, and even schedule me for a concert or speaking engagement. Better yet, even a book signing in your neighborhood. You can find all that and more at rickleejames.com. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, the more visible this podcast will be online. And now for the benediction. May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. God bless you, and thank you for listening to Voices in My Head.