Episode 483: Elias Dummer - Voices In My Head (The Rick Lee James Podcast)

Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, a songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more with friends, colleagues, and sometimes just by myself. Now make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes or by tweeting at me @RickLeeJames on Twitter. And please join my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. And by the way, in case you're interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the voices in my head. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of Voices in My Head.

Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I'm your host Rick Lee James, and I'm so grateful for all of you who are listening today. Elias Dummer co-founded and fronted one of Canada's most acclaimed worship bands, The City Harmonic. As the group's principal songwriter, he helped pen such hits as Holy, Wedding Day, and Mountaintop, as well as Manifesto, which served as the theme song for 2011's National Day of Prayer. The City Harmonic earned 12 GMA Canada Covenant Awards and a Juno Award, which is Canada's Grammy equivalent, before disbanding in 2017. Dummer released his solo debut, The Work Volume 1, in 2019 and was named Breakthrough Artist of the Year at the 2020 Covenant Awards. Both as a solo artist and with the City Harmonic, Dummer's music has garnered more than 100 million streams to date. His much anticipated sophomore solo album, The Work Volume 2, released on July 29th. The 10-song recording laments the failings of humanity while ultimately amplifying God's lavish grace, his finished work on the cross, which offers new mercies every day. Elias Dummer has stopped by for a podcast visit to talk more about his new project. Elias, welcome to Voices in My Head.

Thanks for having me, Rick. I'm so glad to be here.

Well, I'm so glad to be able to visit with you today. I— congratulations on the new album. The Work Volume 2 has so many good songs. And I was even just sharing with you before, and we'll get into it later, because with your permission, I want to play the song The Gospel Is Rest at the closing of our show today.

Sure.

Yeah.

But we definitely need to talk about that one a little more. But before we do, I'd love for you to just kind of help us connect a little bit with how The Work Volume 2 kind of continues the themes from The Work Volume 1 and why you decided this would be a volume 2 rather than something else.

Yeah, well, the album titling is always a funny thing, and I have a— I am prone to overthinking that sort of thing. And so even in my best attempts at simplicity, I've probably overthought the whole darn thing. So as a, as a guy who writes worship songs, it's never lost on me that some part of what I'm doing is helping people to pray. I mean, that's— you're giving people language for prayer through music, for lack of a better way of putting it. Well, that's traditionally been called liturgy, and so that word liturgy means the work of the people. And so it was really intended to be no more or less than that. It was literally intended to be no more or less than that, simply that these songs are both doing the work in terms of a congregation or a church or a lived life of a community processing and what we're doing at that time. But also for myself, most of the time I'm trying to write prayers that I need to be praying, um, myself. And that's really where a lot of these songs come from. They tend to be very, uh, a lot more vulnerable than, say, a generic theological treatise, although sometimes surely that's part of what happens in worship. So Volume 1 ended up looking a lot like, uh, itches I never got to scratch as part of a band. And Volume 2 feels a little bit more like finding my feet and my place in the space that we live in. Um, so it, it's the longest I've ever worked on an album. We, uh, Brent, my co-producer Brent Milligan, and I were working on The Work Volume 2 for almost 3 years in total. We first met, knowing at the beginning that this album was going to be bittersweet. I don't know. I don't know how someone could live in the world we live in, seeing the church as it has been, seeing celebrities in the church as they have been, watching our very public failings and over and over again and not feel like, like the emotional state of examining our soul as the Christian church in the West could be anything but bittersweet. I think that person would be an ostrich with their head in the sand. So, so I, I think it just, you know, I, I— to me, worship music ought to reflect prayers we should be praying as a community. And, and, and I wanted to be wrestling through that myself. And so that, that really is what this album is doing. We kind of landed on the language of stubbornly hopeful to say, hey, look, we're not abandoning ship here, but we've got stuff to deal with here. That's really a lot of the sentiment and wrestling behind the songs on The Work Volume 2.

Well, that's a great explanation. And to my listeners, you're familiar with the dogs that have been barking, so my apologies as we've been talking. I guess they just got blessed at hearing about the new album and started barking about it a bit. They chime in again, we should also let listeners know you have dogs as well. So maybe, yeah, maybe they'll just get to do a duet while we're here doing this today. But, but thank you for that explanation. And I love how you talked about liturgy and prayer. And, you know, it really does seem appropriate now that I think about it with Volume 2, because our prayers are never-ending. And right, worship just continues. And as you've grown as an artist and try to, as you said, finding keep your footing and sort of what that means as a solo artist versus one who's kind of collaborating with a band on a different level. Um, you know, we, we do— we have growth periods and we change. And I, I think even over our life, as, as our faith matures, we almost wouldn't recognize our younger selves sometimes as we progress. So totally, yeah, I like that idea of, of Volume 2. And then with the, the stubbornly— say it again, it was stubbornly—

stubbornly hopeful. I think, like, yeah, I mean, I I just, I just think, um, we've, we seem to have lived in a very simple binary when it comes to emotions within worship.

Yeah.

And it is a binary that the Psalms do not reflect at all.

Yeah.

And I think that if, if we don't wrestle seriously with that, we're going to find ourselves with increasingly with a liturgy in our churches, whether we realize that's what we're doing or not, contemporary song or hymns, it doesn't matter. We're going— we are giving people language that helps to form their understanding of the relationship between their faith and their lived lives.

Yes.

And if we don't give people language that seems to acknowledge complex emotions and acknowledge complex situations— and I mean, David seems to go from wanting to make death threats to God's faithfulness in the span of 3 sentences. So, so I think we can at least grapple more seriously with what it means to be human. As we pray these prayers. And partly, I think on some level, many have looked to worship as an escapist sort of thing. And, and I, I look at it more as a formational thing. It is, it is shaping who we're going to be when the church doors open and we get in the parking lot. Yeah, we drive home. That, that is what worship is doing on some level. And so, so for me stubbornly hopeful just means clinging to the hope that I know to be true and, and put trust in, but not shying away from the thing that we are and seeing it for what it is.

Definitely. Well, I'm in your amen corner on that one for sure. And, you know, and I can tell you, I mentioned before we started recording today, and my listeners know that I, I've been working as a hospital chaplain here.

Yeah.

And it's been fascinating to me to find this disconnect between— we don't understand as humans, it seems many of our believers, it seems like we don't understand that suffering is not a punishment from God. It's part of life. Right. And, and so many times I'm with patients, and I see them asking this question, what did I do to have this happen to me? And I wonder if sometimes, and a lot of times, these are godly people that are in the church. And it's not that that's a, like an unholy or unreasonable thing to ask. But at the same time, I often wonder, have we done such a poor job of presenting, as you said, things like the Psalms, where those were all worship songs of Israel, you know, and they were crying out because they were in suffering, not because they had escaped out of it. And there's a— there's something to that. I think that maybe we haven't bolstered our people enough to understand that now when you're in suffering, this is what we get to see, like like when, when we are believer and what it looks like for believers to suffer. Not just, you know, sometimes worship songs, as you said, there's this binary of like, well, I was suffering, but then I found Jesus and everything got so good. Yeah, right. And that's not to say that there isn't an immense amount of joy in following the Lord. However, sometimes it means we have a whole new set of problems, you know.

Yeah.

And if we don't give people permission to have a complex human experience even as Christians, then so many feel that they are forced into a false choice, which is to say, well, if my experience doesn't match that of the fiction that's propped up over here, then I suppose I'm not a Christian. Or I suppose— and there's not to make that the only explanation, but I'm just saying that that is, if we're constantly forcing people into that corner, we shouldn't be surprised if people find them— find that version of Christianity, which isn't what the Bible puts forward, certainly, um, and certainly not what Christian tradition puts forward either. I mean, it— if, if that fiction is the thing that they're choosing from, well, we shouldn't be surprised if people don't choose it. Yeah, you know, because life is complicated and hard. I mean, you can see that in the hospital.

Yeah, well, and I think even somehow we've almost lost our ability to even repent almost in church, you know. It's almost like it becomes a dirty word. Well, I did that once. And, uh, you know, it's almost like, well, I guess I don't need to do it again. But as you've already talked about today, we have so many examples of in the times we live in where the church has just failed to be like Christ in the world. And it would be so cleansing, you know, through our worship songs, through, through things like you're doing, talking about real life and how it hits home and how people of faith— we're not living separate from all this. We're actually going through it and saying, but how can Christ still deliver us?

How can—

when the church gets lost, how do we find our way back?

Yes, that's such a great question. And that's— so it's funny because like one of the songs on the album is a song called Curie et Liaison, It's Mercy We Need.

Yes.

Which to some people's surprise is a song that one could argue is initially anchored in anger. Um, myself and Zach Bolen— Zach Bolen's from the band Citizens. Uh, Citizens was a, a well-known part of Mars Hill in Seattle. So it was not long after we wrote that song, actually, that we found out that the Christianity Today podcast, Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, was coming out, and Mark Driscoll's very public Failings were going to be the talk of the town. We had no idea when we wrote the song, but Zach and I became friends over the fact that he, of course, had an experience with a very domineering and troubling leader in Mark Driscoll. Um, and that was, that was his experience of that as part of that church. And then I also had an experience in a very different setting with no, no lights, no cameras, no media departments, but a small church nonetheless, with somebody with very, very similar traits at times. And the truth is, for both of us, looking back on that season in life is complicated. And there is, there is both positive and negative that, that came from those things. But with me having had many years of separation from those experiences, and with Zach having even just had 5 or 6 years separation from those experiences, both of us were led to a place eventually of saying on some level, this is what happens when we prop up a person as the answer to the problem. And it's not for no reason that Kyrie Eleison, this ancient prayer of Rome that became an ancient prayer of the church, means Lord have mercy on us. And I feel like on some level we've become so enamored for so long in the church with dictating how other people should live and dictating how laws and culture should be and so on. And we, we lose some of what the Orthodox do in the Jesus Prayer, which is that, like, how does it go? Uh, Jesus Christ, Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. And I think, like, if only that— if Christians were known in the world, for seeing ourselves first as, as broken among a broken world, and therefore a salve of peace and grace and mercy, because our starting point in faith and life is having known and experienced mercy ourselves as broken people. If that was the sentiment with which we approach the world, I believe we would be viewed very, very differently than we are And I think that's true of those leaders too, even as they fail us and even as we're angry about it and even as it's disappointing and frustrating. If I were given ultimate power in some organization and ultimate influence, I surely would disappoint someone eventually. And now, does that mean I'm off doing toxic things? No, not necessarily. But I am a human being. And so, I think that for that song, it was really saying, hey, How is it that mercy becomes the starting point of our conversations and our approach to the world? Mercy, compassion, and kindness. I can't think of, you know, if you boil it all down, loving God and loving your neighbor, needing much— I mean, there's a long list of complexity to it, but needing much more than at least those three things as a starting point for how we engage culture and how we engage each other. And so often we're kind of coming at it from a very different place.

Yeah, truly. Now, what a, what an excellent answer. And thank you for talking about that. And you know, that, that song is, is another one I could have gone on about for a while too. And it's hard for me because as I listened through the song, there's several I want to talk about, but knowing that the, the limit of a podcast format like we're doing today limits it. So I'm gonna first of all tell all of our listeners to just go and listen, stream it, wherever you stream music because it's very good. And it really is kind of a journey. Start with the first song and just roll right through it.

Oh, well, thank you. That's, that's very much the intent. Yeah.

But there is one particular song, and I'm just gonna point it out because for me, it's one that I have just continued to go back again. And we've even, we're putting it into the rotation with our worship band at church because I feel like it's so unique. It's so needed. And to me, it feels like the Sabbath put to music, you know. And it's, it's a song, it's a song called The Gospel Is Rest. And it really is something that I felt like I needed when I heard it the first time. And I feel like a lot of people, when they hear it, would just go, oh, thank the Lord, you know, we can stop jumping around on the platform for a minute, you know. Excuse me. Um, and I, I'd love for you to, to talk about this song a bit because I want to play it at the end of our conversation together. Um, but I know you have a story about it too, and I think I, I've read a little bit about when you started writing it, but then it took on a whole new meaning when we entered into the COVID world and then kind of now where we are. Uh, so would you just indulge me because I love the song so much? Tell us, yeah, the behind the music story behind this song, The Gospel Express?

Well, um, so I wrote this with a few good friends, Land of Color, Gary from Land of Color being one of them, uh, actually at a songwriting retreat with— at Brent's place in Florida. Um, and we were— I had, I had helped to plant a church back in 2015. Um, so I knew all the things of the burnout of church planting and trying to help raise something up from zero. I was not the senior pastor, of course, but, but got to see that, that thing firsthand. Um, and so that— when that retreat happened, I needed it very badly. I was stretched pretty thin, um, and I frankly was just tired. I was probably on the edge of burnout myself. We wrote that song. I knew it was going to be special and on the record. And what do you know, by the time we start producing the record, everyone's in lockdown and churches are virtual, and I spent months editing video every week and all that stuff. By the time the record came out, it was like a whole nother ball game where now Christians are exhausted, pastors are exhausted. Trying to navigate all of this stuff has led to unprecedented amounts of frustration and, and burnout. So this song, which really was intended to sort of say, hey, um, and it's, it's interesting, uh, we kind of tried to give this song a certain unfinished lyrical tie. I think of the U2 song I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For as being— I, I know it may not check all the boxes neat and tidy, but for some reason there's something in that that seems very real and satisfying to me. And always has. I think this song does that in a sense, because the lyrics are sort of saying, uh, I've heard it said that the gospel is rest, and oh how I need it. So say it again until I believe it, cause oh how I need it. And, and, and so there's like— because the reality is, even in finding that, that merciful moment of peace and grace and restoration it's— I may find energy for tomorrow. But it's not as though I'm suddenly fixed. You know, that, that the problems suddenly disappear, and I rubbed the genie lamp and everything was great. It— that's not— I don't know anyone who's experienced that in these kinds of things because of the season that we live in.

Yeah.

And so I think there is something to confessing and acknowledging our need for it. Experiencing it and also knowing that we live in kind of what many theologians call a now but not yet, a, a under-realized life that we look forward to in the hope to come of knowing what that is like for all eternity. But, but I think in the life that we lead, it is so often the case that we know it in part and we see it in part. And, and, and that rest, I think, is, is no different. That habit of Sabbath, that routine of peace It shapes us, certainly. It shapes our expectations, and those rhythms are very, very, very healthy and badly needed. But you still go to work on Monday. So there's something to all of that. Anyway, so the song really speaks probably more to need than satisfaction. And so to that end, I've been really really encouraged at hearing just how many people feel like they suddenly find a voice in it.

Yeah, yeah. I think you've, you've really hit, um, a place that just so many people need. And I, even with the— I believe the opening line of the song, and I apologize if I get it wrong, you can correct me, I don't have the lyrics in front of me right now, but, Lord, I've got the world on my shoulders.

Yeah.

And you keep saying, child, put it down.

Yeah.

And then you come back again like begging God, please take this load from my shoulders, and you keep saying, child, put it down. Yeah, yeah. And I, I love that. I love that image because it really does have this parent-child, you know, um, this person that is stronger, a person that's weak, and just begging, you know. The answer should be so clear. How many times, how many times have I said to people, it should be the easiest thing in the world for us to just stop?

Yeah, yeah. To stop grasping at control. Yeah.

And yet the hardest thing to do is to just let go and say, the Lord is going to take care of all this, and I don't have to be in charge, you know. And it's like, and Sabbath is so hard to come by sometimes. So I just love the idea that you're putting forth for us that God would— the image of God just saying almost humorously, if you don't mind me saying it, child, put it down, you know, like this. It's almost like, it hurts when I do that. Well, please just stop doing that, you know. It's, it's really a breath of fresh air. So I look forward to at the end of our conversation playing that for listeners. I just feel like if everybody could stop and just hear it a few times, you know, it almost feels like Sabbath with music put to it. So I really appreciate that. And it's, it's unique to— and I know my dogs are chiming in, they like it. It's, it's unique in that we just don't have that many songs that are about that. I feel like, and sometimes I do this as a chaplain, I will on occasion sing to my patients, especially those who are in like the ICU. Mm-hmm. And maybe they can't talk.

Yeah.

And they've got a trach in their throat or something. And there was a time even this week, and I'll try to find songs that can just convey to them ways that they can unburden themselves because frankly, they're, they're almost a hostage where they are, you know, sometimes they're a hostage in their own body, you know. And I think this is going to be one of those songs that just for me, whether I have time just by their bed, and there's no other way to communicate with them. Child, lay it down, you know, like the whole idea of just allowing them to have rest. And it may only help a little bit, But that's part of, you know, in the hospital we, we look at that as part of the care and part of the healing.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, yeah, water for the thirsty.

I mean, yeah. So, so I— all that is to say, sorry to just go on about the song.

No, it's awesome.

But it's unique, and I look for songs like that, things that, that I know I'm gonna need. And if it resonates with me I know it's going to resonate with other people because I know I'm not unique, you know. Uh, yeah, definitely. So you've, you've really hit on something special, and I really appreciate it.

Oh, thanks, man. I really appreciate that.

Yeah.

Well, you know, before we do end our conversation, and, and I, I'll play that song at the end today for everyone, um, it would be a real mistake if I didn't just talk for a minute about you and, and, uh, uh, Brent working together. Brent Milligan, who co-produced the project with you. Course, I've, I've seen him a number of times playing with like Stephen Curtis Chapman in concert, and you know, the, the different albums he's produced over the years. But I know that must have been such a great opportunity to, uh, to, to work with him and get together with him over this album. But yeah, just tell whatever you'd like to tell us. It doesn't have to be a lot, but maybe there's a special moment you had with him in the studio because he's— oh yeah, such a talent.

Oh, he really is. Yeah, he really is. I mean, I think for me, um, working with Brent on this record— on the first record, so I've been a producer all along. I, I, of course, with the City Harmonic, we were a very collaborative band, and I was occasionally heavy-handed too. Um, but with that first record, it really was like, I can do this all myself. And so I really did do a lot of it myself. Um, and I think going into Volume 2 I just knew on some level I need to do cool things with my friends, and, and that needs to be the foundation for this thing. It needs to be fundamentally collaborative, and that bled through the whole project. Um, one fun challenge we had was some of the sort of crowdsourced, like Kyrie, for example, the choirs from across the world uploading their vocal performances during lockdown. So it's like, stuff like that was really fun, but Really, it was just time spent with Brent. I mean, he's such a, such an open-minded kind of creative force. He worked on so many cool projects and we became friends before we decided to work together, just through some conversation groups online and stuff like that. And so, yeah, it just sort of was this great process of making music with my pals and just like hanging out. You know, getting in the car and going out for lunch. And, and it's funny because we worked out like what the album would look like in terms of time spent and, and how much energy and, and money there'd be involved and this and that. And the moment the project started, he just didn't care because it was just us hanging out doing— it was like, let's go, let's do it. And we made the record. We made the record the best we possibly could. And we took a long time doing it. Brent had some health concerns a couple of times in the middle of it during COVID and it affected him really seriously. And so that gave us pause at a couple of points during the process. But just going through this with him, I was so glad to have somebody who was basically as invested as I was in making this the best it could possibly be. And I'm someone who's probably prone to being like, hey, let's move on to the next thing. This is done. We're not— it's not going to get better. And he's really good at not doing that. So it was really, really— I'm really, really grateful to have had a partner to kind of dig in to make it the best it can be. And yeah, couldn't say more about it.

Good. Well, that's great. A great story. Well, you know, it's been wonderful getting to talk to you today, Elias, and I really appreciate it. And once again, I just want to encourage all of our listeners to go out and stream your new album, The Work Volume 2. And we're going to close the show today by just playing the song that we were talking about today, The Gospel Is Rest. And my encouragement again to everyone listening, just allow yourself to just kind of let the song wash over you. It's been so healing in certain parts of my own heart as I've heard it and allowed God to just speak through it. And I feel like there are certain songs Elias, that for whatever reason, um, you know, we write them, but God has his hand on it. You know, it's like we're in collaboration with those. Um, and I just feel like this is one of those songs, at least it has been for me. And, and while you are the one singing and the instrumentalists are playing, it's been God who's speaking through it to me. So, uh, thank the Lord for, for the way, uh, that he's using you. It's a, it's a wonderful thing. So please, please keep doing it. Thank you, Rick. Yeah, we need more, uh, songwriters like you in the church today.

Thank you, sir.

Well, we're going to close with that song. And as I say to my guests each week, Elias Dahmer, thank you for being one of the voices in my head this week.

Thanks, Rick.

Lord, I've got the world upon my shoulders, but you've been saying, child, put it down. <LYRICS>I prayed and prayed that you would take my burden, but you keep saying, child, put it down.

Maybe I'm addicted to the worry. Maybe I'm a</LYRICS> Slave to holding on.

Help me put it down. Help me put it down.

I've heard it said the gospel is rich. Oh, how I need it. Say it again till I believe it. Oh, how I need it. Oh, how I need it.

You keep saying, child, put it down.

Well, maybe I've been trying to be the hero, fighting wars that you've already won. Help me put it down.

Help me put it down.

I've heard it said the gospel is rich. Oh, how I need it. Say it again till I believe it. Oh, how I need it. Oh, how I need it. Oh, how I need— Let it be said, besties. Understand me how I need it. Oh, how I need that peace that passes understanding. How I need it. Oh, how I need it. The gospel is rich. Oh, how I need it. Say it again until I believe it. Oh, how I need it. Oh, how I Oh, how I need it. Oh, how I need it. Oh, how I need it. Oh, how I need it.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at RickLeeJames.com, where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, follow my blog, and even schedule me for a concert or a speaking engagement. Better yet, even a book signing in your neighborhood. You can find all that and more at RickLeeJames.com. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, The more visible this podcast will be online. And now for the benediction: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. God bless you, and thank you for listening to Voices in My Head.