Episode 491 - John Marc Kohl - Voices In My Head (The Rick Lee James Podcast

Hey friends, Rick Lee James here. As you know, the holidays are just around the corner, and maybe you are looking to give someone the gift of music this year. Well, I'll tell you what, one thing you can do is go to rickleejames.bandcamp.com, and you can find all of my music. You can find books that I've written. You can find t-shirts. You can find Vinyls, uh, you can find digital downloads of songs that you might like, and you can gift them to people on your wish list. So if you'd like to give the gift of music and support independent music this Christmas, maybe go to rickleejames.bandcamp.com. Thank you so much, and I hope you enjoy today's episode of Voices in My Head, the Rick Lee James podcast. Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, a songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more with friends, colleagues, and sometimes just by myself. Now make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes or by tweeting at me @RickLeeJames on Twitter. And please join my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. And by the way, in case you're interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement. Beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay, where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the voices in my head. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of Voices in My Head. Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I'm your host Rick Lee James, and I'm so glad that you could be here with us again for another great episode. This week, my guest is John Mark Cole. John Cole Clark is a Dallas-based singer-songwriter, worship leader, and multi-instrumentalist. He recently released a new album called Still, which we're going to be talking about today. The album delivers deeply vulnerable autobiographical themes grounded in the promises of God's unyielding faithfulness. The album was co-produced by Cole and Will Hunt, with two tracks produced by Brian Fowler of TobyMac and the Newsboys. Cole penned or co-penned the entire 12-song set, collaborating with such acclaimed songwriters as Fowler, Shane Bernard, Mike Donahue, and the Worship Initiative's Aaron Williams, among others. John Mark has stopped by my podcast to update us on his new music, life, and ministry, and I'm so glad he has. John Mark Cole, welcome to Voices in My Head.

Thanks for having me, Rick. It's great to be here.

Well, I am really glad that, that Brian connected us because I've been enjoying the music, and honestly, um, I've been working as a hospital chaplain, as my listener— as my listeners will know, for a few months now. And I'm in a residency program, and there are times that I'll come off the end of a long shift where I'm overnight, and there are just certain songs that speak to me and help me. And Desert Places has been one of those songs after I've been through kind of a long night, and, and I keep coming back to it. And so just in the, the morning drive in my car— so without knowing it, you've been a companion to me as I've been doing ministry. And so I just want to Thank you for making music not only that we can use in our churches, but also just in those quiet moments when we need it. So I'm looking forward to talking with you more today about your ministry, some of the ways that you are finding God in what you do, and just hearing more about your life. So thanks for being here.

Well, Rick, thanks for mentioning that. I mean, that's just an answered prayer. That Jesus would use, um, this offering, this creative offering, is just a helpful moment for a friend in a quiet moment where he was needed. So that, that's, um, I've always said, like, my friend in college defined success in music as if, as if you can write one song that, and that song encourages a friend, then that's success. And so Thank you for proving to me that, um, it was worth everything.

Wow, wow, what a great way to look at songwriting too, if it can help, if it can help a friend. I really appreciate that look at it. Well, let's start today by, by just talking a little bit about yourself. I, I'd love to know, what does the day-to-day look like for you in ministry? I know for everybody it looks a little bit different, and I know with your work in music, um, it probably varies from day to day, but I'm sure listeners would be interested in finding out, uh, what does, what does day-to-day ministry look like for John Mark Cole?

Well, it's a lot different now than it was when I was on staff at a church.

Yeah, for sure.

Um, but it is just, I just feel so wired to do what I'm doing now. So no day looks the same. Um, and I'm constantly balancing and juggling a couple different things. So half the time I'm writing music, um, for co-writing sessions or just songs for the church, for my projects or for a friend's project. Then, uh, and that, that includes, uh, just, uh, traveling and leading at churches, going to help teams at churches or leading for events or conferences. And then the other half, which I really love being a part of the Worship Initiative because I get to do this, is focused on developing and creating resources for worship leaders through the Worship Initiative, which is a website that, um, just seeks to do that. So what that looks like is one day I could be writing a blog, um, about how to pick songs for Sunday or songwriting or something like that. Other days, it can involve recording videos on how to play a song, acoustic guitar shapes, whatever. Just basically however we can save time for worship leaders and provide some kind of help, um, discipleship, encouragement. To people who need it. So my time is split 50/50 between those two areas.

Oh, that's great. And, and you know what, we're going to talk in just a minute about the Worship Initiative because I love some of the things that they're doing and have been using them even in my church, whether it just be from getting tracks from Loop Community and things that, you know, have come off the album and trying to make it sound more full in your church. I mean, it's a great resource. Yeah, so we'll talk about tracks all day. Oh yeah, it's so much fun., and it really, I think, helps, um, helps our churches, uh, when oftentimes we don't have, you know, the, the big band we'd like to have. Sometimes it helps us to fill in some of the gaps and, and really make it sound, uh, much thicker. And so I really appreciate that. Um, so we'll get to that in just a second, but I'd love to know too, um, tell me about a little bit about your path in becoming a worship leader in the first place. I know that several people who are musical, they will kind of, you know, find their footing first of all as a musician. I know in my case, you know, about 15, I really got the bug for guitar and I started playing and I thought, oh man, all I want to do is just be like a session player or something. But then God took me a different direction in life, you know, and my story changes a little bit along the way. And I know everybody has a unique story, so if you don't mind, I'd just love to hear a little bit about your path to kind of becoming, um, really a worship leader more than just a musician. Although God uses us as musicians in those things, but there's a whole other level, as you know, that, that we come into of, uh, I guess it would be in some ways self-surrender, you know, in, in coming from like, I'm not just a musician, I'm, I'm a musician for the Lord in a whole new way. So if you don't mind, I'd just love to hear your story.

I love how you put that. I could just— I'd rather hear your story, honestly. I really like how you summarize that. I mean, that's so helpful. Yeah, as I'm through your question, which is just awesome, um, I'm thinking about how to describe it, and the first thing that comes to mind is Jonah, because when I think of my journey, I think of a big messy squiggly line going all over the place, just running from what God had called me to do. Um, so I grew up in a musical family. My mom is a choir teacher. Vocal performance major. My dad had a band in high school and songwriter for a little bit, and my sister sings, and she can sing tenor too. I can sing alto, so we switched ranges. She's an incredible singer. And so my whole family musical, I was always around it even as a baby. I remember— I don't remember this, but my mom told me she would put on classical music and I would just stop and just stare, just listen. So I remember loving music and singing as long as I remember breathing. My guitar— my dad gave me a guitar and taught me Puff the Magic Dragon and Yellow Submarine. And I remember thinking, man, an F major chord is really hard on the guitar.

I hate this. It is.

There's something about these strings. I was singing in elementary school and doing some stuff with church already, but something about the strings and, uh, making the music, it just— I just fell in love with it. And so fell in love with guitar, like you said, music. But it had always been— there'd been an application to use that in the church from the early stages. And I remember I was given a chance by my, uh, when I was in high school, by a junior high pastor to said, hey, why don't you lead worship for our junior high service? And it was in the gym of our church, and it was right by, um, my parents' Sunday school class. And so they could hear it, and it was terrible. It was a disaster. I mean, I could just— I was excited to hear myself through a mic.

I'm like, oh, this is so cool.

Um, but I was affirmed after that by him and by several other people throughout me serving in church consistently for the past 10 years or so, um, that I had a gifting to lead people and to lead worship, and I should continue to do it and serve the church. I kind of filed it away. I was like, well, that's great. Um, you know, I, I've liked different styles of music and was really focused on releasing that, and so that was always my priority. But I always wanted to serve the church because I I just loved Jesus and just wanted to be helpful. So that became that Jonah squiggly line where I was involved in church. Um, I, I was, uh, throughout college mentored by like a worship pastor who wanted to turn me into a worship leader when I just wanted to be an electric guitar player.

There you go.

And I had these people just constantly pulling in, uh, calling, pulling me in, calling me, affirming the call. All the while I had this excuse of I never had that cloud in the sky moment. I never had that thing where I walked up the aisle and surrendered my life to ministry like a lot of my friends did. And I just used that as an excuse instead of listening to, you know, the God also speaks through his people. But I kind of, so I always in my head rationalized, oh, that's why I'm not doing it, because I haven't had that Jonah moment, that very clear thing. But, um, it was clear. Maybe I just wasn't listening. So being on staff at several churches in various capacities, from full-time as a worship pastor to a worship leader, full-time to part-time, all in between, and, um, ended up recently after doing my own music stuff in different— a couple different genres, having fun with that. God just completely redirected my life and made the calling super clear.

And he was like, no, this is—

there was just something about the fulfillment of singing songs about Jesus that I just couldn't find in other areas of music. And I was still like, there were good ministry opportunities. I was talking to the bands I was playing with. I was getting to know but he just made it very clear, like, no, I'm calling you to do this. And that's right. I mean, Colossians— out of Colossians 3, um, that, that mission statement of this just started, that was something that my worship pastor had mentored me with, um, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, that whole section of Colossians 3. He used that to mentor me and Dwell richly. And I— that verse just started exploding. It just came to life again. Colossians 3. Colossians 3. I'm like, God, I know this, you know. I got mentored. I was doing the other— I was doing my pop project. Like, I, I— why are you— and then instantly got connected with the worship initiative, faked my way onto a live album convincing them I could play bass, and Then before the service, before the recording, Shane Bernard read all of Colossians 3, and the clarity was— I couldn't, you know, I just, I instantly changed everything I was doing. Yeah, it was difficult, but along after a year in, I've realized, oh, this is why God is— he's showing me little glimpses of why he's calling me here. So that's kind of the story. It's a bunch of ups and downs and mistakes and me running from the obvious, but just the kindness of Jesus to be still, yeah, pouring into me and, um, being patient with me, you know, as I, as I was genuinely seeking to follow him too. Like, I was really praying through everything in it, uh, but he's just so patient and, uh, eventually kind of had to hit me over the head and bring me back. And now my first worship album is out, which I never thought I would release a worship album, but it is And, um, it's just, just so grateful, um, grateful for his patience and kindness and goodness in my story. Yeah. So that's a long answer. I'm sorry.

No, that's fine. That's what we're here for. I love, I love hearing that from you and just kind of getting, uh, your perspective on your own story. I think that's wonderful. Um, yeah, you know, you had already mentioned Shane and you already mentioned, um, the worship initiative. And so I want to talk a little bit about that as we lead into your newest project still. Which really to me, it's, it's the, the— how do I describe it? Uh, many times worship music can feel, um, very utilitarian, I guess, you know, in the way that, um, you make something, you want it to be used en masse by churches everywhere, so it sounds a particular way. And you can, you know, find different companies that'll put out albums and they're specifically for that purpose. Nothing wrong with that, I think it's fine. But then there's ones that I'm hearing from you and and others through the Worship Initiative that I feel like is, uh, it's meant for churches to use, but it, it really gives you the space to be creative, to really let your artistic side shine in the midst of that, and encourages churches, I think, too, to not just necessarily use sort of the, the standard format of, you know, songs that come up, but give you some space to actually really find your own creativity, which is one thing I really like about it. So all of my rambling now is really to lead back to this question about, tell us just a little bit about the Worship Initiative. And I know you explained some of the work that you do with that, but for people that might not be familiar with exactly what that is, tell us more about it. We'd love to hear.

Um, thank you for saying all that about my album. I will— the Venmo will come through soon. Yeah, that is a— thank you so much for saying that. Means I feel very, very seen and appreciated, um, and grateful for the Worship Initiative, who really just allows every voice, um, to be heard, however uniquely made, to glorify God and to sing the word. So the, the Worship Initiative is a was, was started as a resource to worship leaders and development, for development purposes, 10 years ago by Shane and Shane. They, they basically wanted to create something to help worship leaders and worship bands, um, in whatever way they could. So they recorded 100 songs in something insane like 2 hours, I don't know, like a month or something crazy like that, and filmed tutorial videos for all 100 songs for every instrument using all these great musicians and I remember watching them initially when I was coming up. I was learning from one of their guitar players. I would watch every single video I could because he was amazing. And so they spent like the initial part of the initial season of the Worship Initiative was spent entirely on how do we just resource worship leaders, teach them how to play songs, develop their heart, their relationship with God, provide, um, all kinds of resources— blogs, content, devotionals, everything— just to pour into them. And this past year, moving into this new season, the vision has been we want to sing, continue to sing the word out of Colossians 3, but also like we would love to— we feel like we need to be writing songs for the church as well. And I like how they took a long time to do that, but last year they, uh, we decided we're And that's when I came on, just to start a record label and to bring in some artists and in community and together seek to write and just, um, yeah, make songs for the church that marry both truth and depth and richness of theology with beauty and the struggle that lies in that. But yeah, so we, uh, I'm one of the, the new artists that just got signed to the label. So my, um, see, that's me, Aaron Williams, who we mentioned, and then Davey Flowers, uh, who is incredible. And so both of them are amazing, but we're all kind of just being mentored underneath the Shanes and having them pour into us. And, uh, it's been a lot of fun. It's been wild. And really grateful to be a part of the family.

Well, that's terrific. Well, I, I'm glad that they're mentoring you in that way. And, and I have to say, um, you know, talk about amazing guitar players. I love whenever you listen to a Shane and Shane album, you at some point always hear that guitar trill that is like inhuman. And it's so great word for it. Yeah, right. It's, it's like, it's like an amazing talent. And I wish— I've tried for years. I'm like, one day I'm gonna perfect that and get that thing down. But, uh, yeah, just incredible incredibly talented. And I love the way that they, you know, even back— this has been, my goodness, how many years? Probably more than a decade. I know when Shane and Shane started doing, um, you know, really with their Psalms albums, you know, and really finding creative ways to express, um, things like just taking from the Book of Psalms and helping us to learn as worship leaders, you know, there's more than one way to do this. So I love that they've incorporated you and others and, and Davey, who I also hope to, to be able to have on the podcast soon. We been working out some things timing-wise to do that. But I love the way that they're creating space for you to kind of find your own voice in the midst of finding ways to help the church sing, which I think is wonderful. So this brings us to your, your new album Still, which this morning actually I was listening to it again. I started out with an early morning run on the treadmill. It's too cold right now here to run outside for me.

Get after it, Rick.

I'm on watch.

I'm on watch, people. Let's go.

I'm a little bit of a wimp when it comes to snow and ice, so I stay in on the treadmill in the morning. But we— here in Ohio, it's a little snowy and icy. But I went through, you know, I get through the whole album again and I just find, you know, there's, there's so many different ways to speak. But for the sake of time today, let's, let's just focus in on one song that I know you're going to be promoting pretty soon, if that's all right with you. And we'll close our time together by actually playing the song Tapestry. And it's on this album still, which I want to say, first of all, the album cover is— it reminds me of like an '80s throwback cover, you know. It's really cool, like, because of the different squares that are on there, and you're on a rug and, you know, wearing denim and everything. It's kind of— it's a really cool look. But there's parts of the album that almost feel, you know, with things that feel synthesized and things like that, like there's a way that the old starts to become new again, you know, in some ways when we look at like music from that era. And that's not to say that, that it's an '80s sounding album or anything, but it feels like there's maybe some influence of that time period on, on some of the music. Would you say that's correct, or am I just making that up?

I love Prince. Yeah, I, I love the '80s. It's, it's been, yeah, you nailed it. I just, um, lean towards that. I mean, one of my, my favorite indie pop band is a band named Joan, and they're retro pop, and so they just throw it back to the '80s. And they've had some new singles that are even '90s, and I can't believe that's already coming back. But learned a ton from them and just love their approach and You know, you reference the album artwork.

It's—

there's all these little pictures of little mementos that are from just my musical story. Um, the songs range from being written 6 months ago to 8 years ago. And the theme of the album, when people ask me that, I really think, you know, there's less of a theme and there's more of— it's just a collage, little snapshots of where I've been in my life and my relationship with Jesus over 8 years. So the album artwork, uh, is supposed to just represent that. Um, the, the most recent song, the 6 Months Ago one, is Tapestry. And so that's the first, first song on the album. It was written by 7 writers. 7. We wrote over 20 choruses, finishing 5 minutes. I'm texting my producer for those first 2 songs, Brian Fowler. I'm texting him 5 minutes before we have session singers booked to come in and sing the chorus. And we're like, oh, does the 'and' need to get out? What is it? Just trying to— we, we just really had fun with the song and just trying to make it as good as we can make it. So, um, that process was really fun. But ultimately, you know, the song is about just the evident glory of and goodness of God in the smallest details of creation to the smallest details of our lives, and how he cares for every little thing. He doesn't waste the breaking or the pain. And one day I hope we get to see more of a picture of the goodness and faithfulness of God in our lives.

Yes, amen. Well, you know, I, I'm going to share just a little bit of the, the some of the lyrics from Tapestry, and I really like the lines that say, every inch of your creation, from the sparrow to the sky, shows the greatness of your glory. Still, I'm on your mind. So when my heart is filled with questions and I'm drowning in the doubt, I will look to my Creator where my hope is found. And I love the way it's put. And then as you go into the chorus and you sing of the wonder of your tapestry, I think it's appropriate maybe that it had— I think you said 7 writers on the song. And just to think about all that that means when 7 different people, you know, I usually have maxed out at 3 writers on a song because it feels like we all go different directions. But maybe there's something to that idea of 7 people coming together, which is a godly number, you know, and being able to use it in that way. But I love the collaboration because I have found so often that that, that my music will improve with the help of others. And, and when— for a long time, uh, I, I didn't realize that, and maybe I wasn't humble enough to realize that and say, no, no, um, it's okay to let somebody else in and put their hands on this and help, because, um, you're trying to serve the song, you're trying to serve the church through what you do. And so I, I love the beauty of all of this kind of interweaved together from your experience as a worship leader and the way that the church play its part in your story. And working with the work— with the Worship Initiative, and then even when you're talking about calling the producer, we're still working on the chorus coming into this from, you know, 20 different choruses, bringing it down to the one that we feel like all of us together. I just love that collaboration that goes on there, really making it a process of, sure, my name's on the album, but this is something that has involved the community of faith around me to bring it here. To this place. So I think that's a good way for us to focus in on the Song Tapestry today. Again, you're the guest and I'm talking too much, but I'm grateful for artists like yourself who are helping us to realize the importance of that collaboration. I feel like if there's a flaw in much of our mindset sometimes, it's that we are supposed to be loners. You know, and that we're supposed to take everything upon ourselves. And sometimes in ministry, that is really a detriment to people when they haven't figured out that we're supposed to do this together. So thanks for letting not only this album, but the way you're doing ministry, all of that stand out. So anyway, I've talked too much, and I'm going to get back to you and let you have the final word before we close out our time together today, because we are going to close with the song Tapestry. Um, let me ask you a musical instrumental question as, as we close our time together today, because we have a lot of instrumentalists that enjoy hearing. I know you play several different things, and I know on albums artists like to play different things, or sometimes they let other people do the heavy lifting in that regard. What was it like for you on the making of not only the album but this song Tapestry? Were you one of the main guitar players? Did you go with other instruments on this? Did kind of pass it off to other people. I'd just love to hear a little bit about the musical process in the studio.

Yeah, um, well, we had a lot of people way better than me playing on this song. Um, so I played a little bit of acoustic. I did play some acoustic on it. I did all the vocals, and some of the vocal stuff I produced on my own. Wow. The rest of the record I played, um, a lot of the keys, which I don't play keys, so don't recommend that. That takes a lot of work to fix it. Bass, synth bass, some electric stuff, most of the acoustics, and a lot of the programming. It was just— it's just a lot of fun. My advice to instrumentalists listening: practice with a metronome and then turn the accents off. You'll be humbled very quickly. And see how long you can go. Start at 72 BPM and maybe do start with a bar of silence in between each and then maybe get up to 10 bars. And yeah, keep, don't forget your timing.

Yeah.

On it. That will set you apart.

Yes. And that is excellent advice, you know, and it brings us back around too when I talk about, you know, places like Loop Community and places that will sell tracks online. It's always humbling when bands at church first start out and they're trying to play with that click whenever they come together, you know, and they're hearing it. And if they've never done it before, it's like, what is this? I've never tried it. But you're right, we don't realize sometimes how far off we are. And it helps to have metronome. So excellent advice to musicians everywhere today. Don't forget the metronome.

Click is the musician version of accountability.

Yes.

Okay, we need to live with it. We don't always like it, but we need, we need it to reveal when we're not doing well.

I love it. Click is the musical equivalent to accountability. I love that. That's gonna stick with me for a for a while. So, well, John Mark Cole, this has been, uh, excellent. Thank you for stopping by today and for the visit. I really appreciate it. We're going to close out our time together today, uh, on the show just by listening to Tapestry. But I want to let everybody know that, as always, if you look in the show notes of our podcast at Voices in My Head, you'll be able to find links to, uh, all of the things that John Mark has going on right now. And so should be, if everything works the way it's supposed to in internet land, uh, as you're listening even from your phone or wherever you are, you should be able to just go to the notes, click on a link, and it'll take you right there. And if that doesn't work, you can always go to rickleejames.com or just look up the podcast and you'll be able to find it there. Well, as I say to my guests every week, I get to say it to you, John Mark Cole. Thank you for being one of the voices in my head this week.

You're welcome, Rick. Thanks for having me. Thanks for letting me in, I guess.

There's a tapestry you're making, full of color, full of life, weaving beauty from the breaking. On the other side, oh, there's countless threads of mercy and there's endless shades of grace. And the more that I discover. I can't look away. Your kindness awakens me. Your goodness is the air I breathe. And the more I surrender, the more I can see the wonder of your tapestry. Every inch of your creation, from the sparrow to the sky, shows the greatness of your glory. Still, I'm on your mind. So when my heart is filled with questions and I'm drowning in the doubt, I will look to my Creator, where my hope is found. Oh, your kindness awakens me. Your goodness is the air I breathe. And the more I surrender, the more I can see the wonder of your tapestry. I've tasted your good goodness. And now I can see there's nothing better, nothing better. There's no one above you, God. You'll always be so much better, so much better. I've tasted your goodness and now I can see there's nothing better, nothing better. There's no one above you, God. You'll always be so much better, so much better. You know, you're kind, awake tapestries. Your goodness is the air I breathe. And the more I surrender, the more I can see the wonder of your tapestry. The wonder of your tapestry. I can see it now. I see it now. Surround Surrounding me, surrounding me, all the wonder of the wonder of your tapestry, your tapestry. I can see it now, I see it now, surrounding me, surrounding me, all the wonder of the wonder of your tapestry, your tapestry.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com, where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, follow my blog, and even schedule me for a concert or a speaking engagement. Better yet, even a book signing in your neighborhood. You can find all that and more at rickleejames.com. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, the more visible this podcast will be online. And now for the benediction: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. God bless you, and thank you for listening to Voices in My Head.