Episode 498: The Book of Ancient Prayers with Brent Neely

Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, a songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more with friends, colleagues, and sometimes just by myself. Now make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes or by tweeting at me @RickLeeJames on Twitter. And please join my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. By the way, in case you're interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the voices in my head. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of Voices in My Head.

Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I'm your host Rick Lee James, and I'm so glad for all of you who are listening today. Thank you for coming back for what I know is going to be another fun conversation today with my friend Brent Neely. Brent Neely is an ordained minister through the Church of the Nazarene, a hospice chaplain, and a Benedictine novice monk through the House of Venetia Nova, an Anglican religious community. We have to talk about that, Brent. I want to hear more. He's currently working on his doctoral dissertation, which looks at the possibility of monastic spirituality within the Church of the Nazarene. Recently, he published The Book of Ancient Prayers, 365+ prayers from the saints of the church, which offers prayers from throughout church history and from around the world. He is married to Reverend, soon-to-be Dr., Annie Neely. Together, they live with their cats Beckett and Gemma and their many fish in Kansas City. He can be found on Twitter and Instagram at @tatted @_pastor and by email at brent.d.neely@gmail.com. Don't worry, you don't have to remember all that. We have it all in our show notes here at voicesinmyheadpodcast.com. So without any further ado, Brent Neely, welcome to Voices in My Head.

Hey, thank you so much, Rick.

It's so good to be able to speak with you again. And I just wanted to say at the outset here that I am right in the middle of my chaplaincy residency at one of our hospitals about 45 minutes away from me. I just want to say thank you, because back whenever I felt God putting a calling on my heart, you and Annie were some of the first people that I reached out to because I knew that you had been in the middle of this journey. And when I say I was clueless about chaplaincy, I mean, I was clueless. I was as lost as last year's Easter egg, as the phrase goes. I had no idea what was in store for me. Didn't know why God was putting this on my heart. But you and your wife both, I remember that Zoom conversation that we had. And you just talked me through it. You told me you'd pray with me and gave me some advice. And along the way, you've been there whenever I had questions. And so I just wanted to start by saying thank you. It's been a wonderful journey. And you've been a part of that process. So thank you so much, my friend.

Yeah, yeah, I'm glad to. I'm glad you're doing so well in it. I, you know, I strongly believe that any pastor will be a better pastor if they go through chaplaincy. You know, I think clinical pastoral education is just such a, such an important tool, you know, not all, not all pastors would be great chaplains, and not all chaplains would be great pastors. But if you're able to, to kind of do some of that overlapping, I think just everybody's ministry is improved by it. So I'm really glad to see how well you're doing in it.

Well, thank you. And, and you're exactly right. I think, I honestly, I do think it would make any pastor a better pastor by being a chaplain, whether or not they wanted to continue in it, because I, I've never been in any sort of education experience quite like CPE, where it requires so much of you and, and, and makes you be so authentic. But so much is unlocked for me, helping me to get to places— the, the shadow self, as we talk about sometimes— that I didn't even realize was there, thinking I've already dealt dealt with this, and then realizing, nope, I haven't dealt with it. Uh, and, and so every day it's, it's an exhausting experience, but it's, it's wonderful, and, and it's God-led. So thank you for, for being a part of that journey with me. I, I so appreciate it. But, but we want to talk about you today and this, this amazing work that you've done. Uh, this new book, The Book of Ancient Prayers, 365+ Prayers from the Saints of the Church, it just released not long ago. So I'm glad to be able to have a chance to, to talk with you about it kind of where it came from. Before we get too deep into that though, I do want to ask, because I don't want to forget, um, I'm fascinated by you being a Benedictine novice monk, and which, which a lot of people wouldn't think, oh, married Nazarene pastor, sure, he'll become a monk. Uh, yeah, tell us a little bit about that, because I think there probably are a lot of questions and misconceptions, and I, I just love to know more personally because I don't know a lot about that and would love to hear what's going on.

Yeah, it's actually a perfect time for that question too. This upcoming Sunday, which I guess when this episode will air it'll be the Sunday we just went through, um, in the Episcopal Church is actually the newly created day, um, for a celebration of religious life, um, celebrating those that are actively in some form of monasticism, whether it be Benedictine, Franciscan, you know, or one of their many other avenues of monastic life. But yeah, it would seem a weird combination to be an ordained Nazarene elder and a Benedictine monk, but for me it makes a lot of sense, especially with some of my strong Wesleyan roots, you know. I think Wesley and Saint Benedict would get along really well. Benedict phrases it, ora et labora, prayer and work. And John Wesley says, works of piety and works of mercy. And really, you know, I think those two go hand in hand together. And for me, it was kind of a weird journey. It all started at the end of college. I was introduced to a more liturgical way of being a Christian. I was introduced deeper into church history and into the church fathers and mothers and just really exposed to a Christianity that went beyond the year 1900. And that, that really impacted me. And throughout my seminary journey, I studied a lot of monasticism and the saints. And a lot of, a lot of the people that I looked up to were were monastics, where they were either in a monastery or they were a friar or they were a nun or a sister or something like that. And so I remember praying in my seminary bedroom at one point, all right, God, you're either going to get me married or you're going to make me a monk. Like, these are the two options. Um, and shortly after that, Annie and I started talking more, more intensely. Um, and the, the rest there was, was history. Um, you know, we, we fell in love and got engaged and got married and, you know, have been, been happily married ever since. Uh, but during all that time, you know, there's still this sense of, for me, an intentional formation is really important. Having a, a community around me that is shaping me in a certain way so that I look a certain way. That I act a certain way, that I, I become a certain way. Um, and so, you know, I, I'd been really interested in monasticism and the monastic life and following a rule of life and, and having the daily prayers. And I'd been praying the Daily Offices of some variety for the last, I don't know, probably 8 years or so. Um, but really wanting a, a community around me to, to be support And there was a point where I even tried to start a group within the Church of the Nazarene. And there, there was some interest, there was a few people that, that were a part of it, but it kind of, it was difficult because none of us had done it before. So somebody kind of had to go off and learn what it looked like. And when I was in seminary, I discovered Anglican religious orders. So the main one, the first one I saw that really drew my attention was the Society of Saint John the Evangelist. They are a traditional monastic community. And so I thought before Annie and I became serious of, oh, well, maybe I can become Anglican and join them. And like I said, Annie and I got together and, and we got married. And so that option fell off the table. But throughout my studies, through my doctoral work, I found different communities that were a part of the Anglican Communion but were also open to married men and women. You know, a lot of people mistake monasticism as having to be celibate, which isn't the case. Um, especially for Benedictines, our vows do not include celibacy or chastity. They're obedience uh, conversatio, conversatio morum, the conversion of life and stability, while the evangelical vows are poverty, chastity, and obedience. But even there, chastity does not necessarily mean celibacy, it just means a proper sexual ethic. Um, so throughout those conversations, I, I met with the abbot of the House of Initia Nova. I had made several friends on Twitter. That were a part of the community and I really looked up to. And so throughout the conversation, he and the Bishop Protector, which is the bishop that oversees the community, you know, we had talked about it and they had decided that I was, quote, Anglican enough to join the community. And so on May 8th, 2022, I officially entered the House of Anishinabe as a postulant and Then in November, I became a novice as I continue on towards solemn vows. And so, yeah, it's just been a really good opportunity for me to, to be shaped and formed by, by a community in a, in a time-tested way. You know, I, I think the Benedictines have made wonderful Christians and wonderful saints and, and a wonderful witness to, to the work of Christ and in the kingdom. And so there have been several Nazarenes and several leaders who have been confused, to say the least, about what I'm doing. But after explaining it to them, they've all been maybe not supportive, but okay with it. Yeah.

Okay. Well, I'll tell you what, I'll be one that's supportive of you. In the midst of that, I love that story. And I love that the way that God is guiding you on this journey. It doesn't have to look the way it looks for anybody else. You know, I think that's, that's part of the beauty of the personalness of who our God is, you know, and the way that he leads us in this way. And I love the part of your story where you said, Lord, you're gonna have to get me married or make me a monk. And, and look at God, here you go, you get to be both. How about that? So that's a, that's a beautiful part of your story. And I thank you for sharing that today. And it's, it's not a story I don't think I've ever heard before. I really don't. And so, um, it's, it's going to be one that I'll, I'll get to have conversations with people about in the coming days and say, did you know that this could happen? And, and, and you're right, uh, Wesley, Anglicanism, everything that you talked about, the Benedictine way, I think all of them are very good complements to each other. Yeah. Well, with our, with our brief stop at, uh, at the Anglican religious community, we, we want to move into something that's not really unconnected is actually quite connected. This new book that you've come out with, which I don't know how, as one who wrote a book myself a few years ago, which is nowhere near as good as yours, I know. It's, it's amazing to me that you found time in the midst of your doctoral work, in the midst of your chaplaincy work, and even just being married, that you found time to put this book together. But here it is, The Book of Ancient Prayers, 365+ Prayers from the Saints of the Church. Tell us about, uh, really how this all came together and, and why we needed another prayer book, in your opinion.

Yeah, well, I would, I would highly advise anybody thinking about working on a book and a doctoral dissertation at the same time to, to not do it, um, unless, unless it is your doctoral dissertation. Yeah, yeah, you know, but yeah, no, it was, it was definitely days where, uh, one or the other got kind of shafted or put aside for a while. Um, a lot of, a lot of intense days of, oh, I gotta, I gotta really get this done today. And so it came about through A Plain Account, which is an online lectionary website that utilizes the, um, lectionary throughout the church year. And we also have music resources and curriculum resources, liturgical resources, and a number of other things. Last year, we started putting out a Lenten devotional as well as an Advent devotional. And in, in those devotionals, part of what we included each week was, on the Sundays, we included a prayer from somebody throughout church history. And that was, that was part of my job as the, as the liturgical guru of the group, if you will. And so each Sunday in Lent, you know, there's a prayer from somebody throughout church history. And it was actually Danny Kwanstrom. He's the president of A Plain Account. It was actually his wife Kayla that utilizing that resource told her, she was like, you know, I really like these prayers. Like, it would be really, it'd be really nice to kind of have like a resource of, of where to find stuff like this. And so Danny volunteered me to, to write a book. And so, you know, he, he had talked about a Plant Account creating a publishing wing, which, which we're all really excited about. They've got, I think when I talked to Danny the other day, I think right now they've got 5 more authors lined up.

Great.

To, to write and publish throughout the next year or so. And so we're, we're really excited for what's coming for that. You know, we, we're really trying to be a practical resource for people. But he had told me, hey, we're going to start this publishing wing, you know, and you, you know where to look, you know where to find this stuff. Could you compile something? Could you bring together some of these resources so that others could be introduced to it? I think people would really benefit from it. Yeah. And yeah, I, I was looking really for— or I was really excited for that and really looking forward to that. Because, you know, as I've— excuse me— as I've mentioned with other people before, one of my character flaws, and I, I'm getting better about this, is sometimes I forget that other people have not had my experiences, that they've not learned what I've learned, that we're not all at the same place. And so for me, you know, my first thought was, well, these prayers are really easy to find. Well, because I know where to look, because I've been studying this stuff for a decade now. Yeah. And so, you know, with the question, why another prayer book? In some ways, it's different than, you know, if you look up a typical prayer book, like the Book of Common Prayer, or like a breviary, you know, they're very set for, okay, these are a list of prayers that we're going to go through each day. And you know, it's very set in being multiple prayers each day and kind of what one would do through the Daily Office. This book is hopefully more of a devotional book where each day just has one prayer from somebody throughout church history. And it's my hope that as people use it, they're, they're introduced to a wide variety of people, a wide variety of resources. Hopefully some that they've not heard of before, some that they've not seen. And I, I hope that as people use it, they, they come to recognize that there's so many ways to pray, and there's so many things we can be praying for, and there's so many, so many good prayers that have been out there that can form and shape us.

Yes.

And so one of the things that I tried to do with this book is I utilize prayers from right after the time of Scripture. So the oldest known Christian prayer outside of Scripture comes from St. Clement, and that's in this book, all the way up to the most recent prayer was prayed by Michael Judge, who was a Franciscan friar and a chaplain for the New York Fire Department who died on 9/11.

Wow.

And so it covers you know, 21 centuries of prayers. And, you know, and anywhere that there's been Christians, I tried to take a prayer from it. So all, all the different continents, you know, and some, some are very, you know, high church Catholic Orthodox saints, and some of them are more what we as evangelicals would likely consider, you know, some of our saints. And so, yeah, really trying to just introduce people to a broad spectrum of good prayers.

Yeah. And you know what I, what I really love about what you just said? You said there are so many ways to pray. And I think that gets lost on us sometimes. For all the talk that we have in churches and even in popular evangelicalism about prayer, and there must be 1,000 books about prayer, I think of all these Is it Stormy O'Martian who, who write, you know, The Power of a Praying Husband, or, you know, there's all these different things about prayer. But when it comes down to it, oftentimes we don't really help people know how to pray. We so often just, I feel like we just kind of throw people into the wind and say, well, go pray. And what I love about your book is you even say in the introduction, and I'm just going to read it, it says, it's my hope that this book will strengthen you in your prayer life. May the words of the saints penetrate our hearts and lead us deeper into the love of Jesus Christ. And I feel like books like this one, and especially this one, do such a good job of helping us be formed in our prayers, you know, not, not just that we're throwing words at the wall, but that they're helping us take time to actually think about the words that we're praying, giving us words that are worth praying, for lack of a better word. Because when we pray in, in proper ways— maybe proper is not the best word because I also feel like there's a place for, you know, being extemporaneous in our praying, for sure. But there is something about the way that these prayers have been thoughtfully formed and shaped that is so helpful. Last semester when I was at Loyola, for one of my classes, for the final paper, he actually gave us the option to sort of write in the form of a prayer book. And, you know, kind of instead of doing like a 9-page paper, do 3 3-page prayers and write in the way of some of the church fathers and almost like a psalm, you know. And I loved that assignment and when I took time to, for the first time, maybe not just write for myself personally, but think about ways of writing that could help other people, you know, in prayer, it really is an activity that you put real thought into, and it can be so formative. So I want to just, I guess, thank you for this as well. Sometimes in the Nazarene Church, I don't feel like our tradition has always embraced written prayers in this way. At least certain pockets of it. There have always been places where it's going to be more welcome than not. But I have leaned on the prayers of the church in many ways, even in my songwriting. So often I will go to the Book of Common Prayer and look for phrases and things that can help me. And I know my album Hymns, Prayers, and Invitations, there was a couple songs on there that I really relied heavily on some of the Anglican prayers that I found, and especially like a song like Morning Hymn, The Long Night Is Past, and things like like that, that are about, you know, how— why would we need a prayer in the morning when we first wake up and greet the new day? And why is it significant that the long night would be passing away? So anyway, I, I've talked too much, but I, I just want to— I just want to say how grateful I am that you're out here doing this good work for the church, and not just putting another book out there, but it's a book that's helping us to be formed and to be shaped and learn how to pray in ways that will help us to grow. And, and I think that's just so important. Let me ask you this question, because, you know, we could, we could go on for a long time, but we only have a few minutes left. Is there one particular prayer in the book that if you said to someone, you know what, if, if I had only one prayer to give you from this book, this is the one that either is the most meaningful to me, or I think someone else would find it most meaningful? And I know even that is kind of a broad question, but can you think of one that just off the top of head, like, this is the one that maybe even just today is sticking with me. Because I'd love to have you— if you have a copy of your book handy, I'd love to have you as the author of the book just kind of read it for us, if you don't mind.

Yeah, there was one that I'm trying to find that I'm not 100% sure where I put it in the book.

Okay.

So it's fine if I don't find it. That I'll just mention it and other people can go and find it. Okay, that's fine. But there's a— I think one of my favorite prayers that I found, and it's not even necessarily what the prayer was, but it's who prayed it. And kind of how I went about finding it is one of the prayers is from an unnamed saint. You know, I don't know who said it. Where they said it. Oh, I do know where they said it. Um, so the prayer is titled, um, The Prayer of an Indonesian Leper. Oh, unnamed person, don't know who it was, but somehow, you know, they prayed this prayer and somebody was listening and they wrote it down.

Um, it's, it's prayer number 152, if that helps you.

It does.

Yeah. Prayer of an Indonesian Leopard. That, that sounds amazing.

Yeah. And so, you know, there's, there's several names that people would know— St. Patrick, St. Francis, John Wesley. Um, I even included one of John Calvin, just, you know, to, to say like, yeah, we're— even those that are wrong sometimes get it right. But with this one, I what I found interesting about it— and there, there's a few other prayers that are anonymous, they're on codexes or papyri, uh, papyri, papyruses, whatever the plural of papyrus is, uh, but this one I really like because it shows that you don't have to quote unquote be somebody in the church.

Yeah.

To make a difference. And so this person prayed Oh Lord Jesus, you are full of mercy and also the Almighty in the world. Every day with you is better than the day before. I am aware of your presence inside always, even though my condition in this life is— only you can share in my sufferings. Oh, I am convinced that whatever sorrow I feel, you certainly feel it too. My fellowship with you is priceless. What can we do without you, Jesus? You never leave your people in trouble. Our debt is so big. If we look to the Savior who suffered, we receive medicine for our souls.

Wow.

Medicine for our souls.

Wow.

You know, my goodness, what a prayer.

Yeah.

And it just amazes me that, that these words of a poor leper halfway around the world, that I have no idea if they're male, female, if they were old, if they were young. I know nothing about them. Other than that their prayer is still affecting people today.

Yeah, wow, that's amazing. And, and I think that is, is a beautiful testimony to, to the way that God will have his hand on certain works of the people too. I, I always think of things like songs that have lasted through the centuries, and, and you wonder like, why, why this song? Like, why is Ain't Can't It Be? It's just been that one that just keeps— it's evergreen, you know. Anytime you it. And, and sometimes I wonder, there, there are just maybe some songs, maybe some prayers, maybe some people that God just has God's hand on, you know. There's a touch of the divine that's interweaved into the work itself that, that just has such a lasting value to it. So I am grateful for the prayer of an Indonesian leper today. And I think this helps— thank you so much for reading that, by the way. I love having the authors read a passage of their own book, even though you didn't write that prayer, but, but you brought it to us in the book, um, and that gives people an idea of what these prayers are like in that book. And it's meant to be, um, not something you rush through, but you take your time with it, um, add it into your, your, your prayer life as, as part of the ritual. Maybe take some time to even jot down your own prayers. We've even talked about the benefit of that. Um, but this has been such a really good experience, uh, today. Thank you for, for taking the time to be here with me and, and to share with me about your new book. I'm really excited to be able to, to share it with others. Um, I want to make sure we've hit on everything that you want to hit on today in this conversation. I always try to, to take a moment in my podcast to think, what did I forget to ask? What should I have asked that, that, you know, my guests would really like me to ask today? So is there anything like that that's kind of burned on your heart that you'd like to share before we wrap up our time together?

Yeah, I, throughout this conversation, there was something you said early on that kind of spurred it on in my mind. You know, one of the things that I think is important, you know, you said, you know, there is room, and it is important to have, you know, our own prayers that just arise out of us, you know, I, I pray quite frequently throughout the day, you know, at least 4 times a day there, they're through a prayer book. But often as I'm driving or going to bed or stuff like that, you know, they're extemporaneous. They're just what's on my heart, what's on my mind. And one of the things that I found really beneficial about using prayer books or praying prayers of those that have gone before us is it helps me to practice praying. You know, I did a— I don't know what I want to call it, but I kept track of kind of my nightly prayers at one point just to see, okay, what am I I'm actually praying about before I go to bed. And I pray the same thing pretty much every night. Yeah, you know, just over time, it— some of the people change, or kind of what I'm thinking about changes. But for the most part, it's, you know, Almighty and Everlasting God, I give you thanks for this day. I give you thanks for your love and grace and mercy and compassion, you know, and stuff like that. And I always end the prayer, um, with, with asking for God's mercy throughout the night.. And I realized, I'm like, why? Yeah, I, if I was just left to my own, I would pray the same thing all the time. And so I think of, you know, praying prayers of others as, as a form of practicing prayer, you know, I can, you know, I could go out and be like, oh, yeah, I'm, I'm gonna go do curling, you know, I've seen people curl before. And I, I can maybe kind of get the gist of it. But I, I don't think I would do it in a way that would form me into a good curler compared to if I go to the curling rink, or whatever they're called. And, and go out onto the ice with a professional curler, somebody that has done this, I will then be shaped and formed into, okay, what's the best way to to throw the rock? What's the right amount of sweeping to do? You know, and that may be kind of a silly analogy. But that's, that's what I think about if I want to be better at prayer. If I want to be better at giving God praise, I need to look at those who have done it well. Yeah, I can, I can do it well. You know, because if I'm left to my own devices, I could, I could be easily malformed.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know what, and in a sense, let me just end our conversation by throwing the, the musical perspective into this too, because it's kind of like running your scales and learning to play with that metronome. And sometimes it's doing the same thing over and over and over again so that whenever it comes time to actually perform and, and be original and innovative, you're, you're starting to incorporate these ideas that you've already practiced. And so this practice of prayer that you're be introducing some people to for the first time as a way of our faith formation, of teaching us how to pray. It's like sometimes when I encourage pastors, you know, maybe try a lectionary when you're preaching so you don't just preach your same passages that you've always preached, you know, and can kind of break you out of your favorite ones. So all of this that we're talking about today, it's about faith formation and maybe some new ways for people. So Brent, thank you so much. This has been such a wonderful opportunity to get to talk to you today. I'm proud of you, and I want congratulate you on not only this new book, but your doctoral work, the work in becoming a married monk in the Church of the Nazarene that's also Anglican. I mean, all of these things are just amazing things to be able to talk about today. But I'm really grateful for you and the things that you're offering through your life. And I thank God for the way that God is working through you. And even just knowing a little bit of your story as we've met in the past and kind of following you online, there was a time when, when the prospect of even living was not something that you thought was going to be in the cards for you. And I'm so grateful for the transformation, for the beautiful story of grace and the way that you have walked with others and others have walked with you, and just what God's doing in your life. So as I say to my guests all the time on this show, I get to say it to you today, and I'm excited about it. Brett Neely, thank you for being one of the voices in my head. This week.

Thank you.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, follow my blog, and even schedule me for a concert or a speaking engagement. Better yet, even a book signing in your neighborhood. You can find all that and more at rickleejames.com. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, the more visible this podcast will be online. And now for the benediction: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. God bless you, and thank you for listening to Voices in My Head.