Episode 506 - Shane Claiborne - Rethinking Life

Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, songwriter, author, worship leader, an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene, and most recently, a hospital chaplain. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss things that are on my mind. The Voices in My Head. Music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more are all on the table as I discuss them here with friends and colleagues and sometimes just by myself, processing what I'm learning in the moment. Make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes, tweeting to me @RickLeeJames on Twitter, and by joining my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com. Where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. By the way, in case you are interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the loudest voices in my head, which is ironic because he was such a quiet person. Also, if you do want to be notified about all of my latest releases, not just this podcast, sign up for email notifications on my Substack page found at rickleejames.substack.com. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so let's get to the latest episode of Voices in My Head, the Rick Lee James podcast. Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I'm so glad that you are here with us today. I'm your host, Rick Lee James, and today's very special guest, uh, Shane Claiborne, has return to talk about his new book, Rethinking Life. Shane is a prominent speaker, an activist, a bestselling author. Shane worked with Mother Teresa in Calcutta and founded The Simple Way in Philadelphia. He heads up Red Letter Christians, a movement of folks who are committed to living as if Jesus meant the things he said. Shane is a champion for grace, which has led him to jail advocating for the homeless and to places like Iraq and Afghanistan to stand against war. Now grace fuels his passion to end the death penalty and to help stop gun violence. Shane Claiborne, welcome back to Voices in My Head.

Hey buddy, yeah, good to be with you.

You know, last time I think we chatted, it was, um, on one of the, the anniversaries of, of Rich Mullins's passing, I think. And, uh, you had a chance to, to know Rich whenever he was still with us on this side of eternity, and it was so good to be able to hear some kind of firsthand stories, you know, from him at that time. And, and today is for a different topic. But it's one that, you know, I think listeners are passionate about a couple of things. One is Rich Mullins. For some reason, his legacy just keeps continuing. But also, I think believers are really passionate about conversations about life and what it means. There's so many different perspectives about those things. And yet we continue having these conversations. I'm, and I appreciate the way that you bring generous, grace-filled conversations about this topic, which can be so complicated in many ways. So I'm looking forward to having a chance to talk with you about your newest book, Rethinking Life. And just as we begin today, I wonder if— because the book has been out for roughly a month now, I think, something like that— so I'm, I'm sure you've done a number of interviews and had a lot of conversations about it. I wonder if for you there has been a common topic related to this that has come up again and again that you keep feeling like, wow, this is kind of where people's heart is and what they want to talk about? And has there been anything you've observed like that, that like this is the, the one thing that has really stood out as you have released the book?

Yeah, man.

Well, so the interesting thing is, you know, the last couple of books I wrote were pretty specific. Beating Guns was around, uh, gun violence. I mean, it's bigger than that, you know, culture of violence, the idolatry of weapons, all that stuff. And then, um, Executing Grace was about the death penalty, but it was also about restorative justice and redemption, you know. And, uh, but this is interesting because it's a broader brush, you know. It's, it's, it's, um, um, kind of zooming out a little bit and going, what does it mean to really, um, advocate for life, in a comprehensive way. Um, so it hits on a lot of cylinders really, and I find people are really resonating with this idea that we want to be not just pro-birth but pro-life, uh, womb to tomb, you know, to be consistent in that. Um, there are folks that tend to be concerned about particular issues, uh, and certainly one of those for many Christians is abortion. And I, you know, kind of lead from the very start saying that abortion matters, and I think we can have a better conversation on it, but it's not the only issue of life. And, and I think that that's really, um, uh, created an open door for a lot of conversations to happen, and especially for young people that, that have grown pretty tired of the kind of dead end of culture wars and, you know, sort of cliché bumper stickers and talking points, and they really do care about life, but it's not confined to just one, you know, kind of hot-button issue.

Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that. I was gonna guess that probably the abortion topic was one that would come up again and again, but I'm so glad that you mentioned young people and the conversations that they are willing to have. I think sometimes, especially the youngest of generations that's coming out, they so often get written off as well. They just don't— aren't serious about faith. And yet we see things happening like Asbury, you know, that's been happening just a few weeks ago, where we see young people not there because there's a celebrity speaker or some amazing musician that came along, but just because there seems to be— it kind of seems to be the opposite of that, doesn't it? That it wasn't a social media-driven thing. It was just something authentic and real. And I feel like a longing for connection from young people. And so as they enter into conversations like these, it's, it's really encouraging to me to see, like, I don't know, sometimes people like me— I'm a 45-year-old man and I get a little jaded sometimes, and I think, are we past those days? But I can remember when I was in college, and I remember those revivals we would have on campus, and I remember the way that God moved in such a real way. So I guess the encouragement is God's still moving in the lives and hearts of young people in ways that we may have forgotten about sometimes.

Yeah, man. And, you know, I, I had a personal connection down at Asbury, uh, not just because I'm from, you know, East Tennessee and not too far away from Wilmore, but, uh, my friends, uh, Sarah Baldwin and Clint Baldwin were, you know, pastors and, uh, walking with the students through that. Um, I mean, incredible historic moment, you know, and Sarah's one of the many, you know, pastoral folks there and the vice president of spiritual life. But, you know, so I reached out to them and said, I'm praying for you. I'm excited. I might, I might come down there, you know. Yeah. But yeah, I think there's a longing for God and there's a longing for a version of Christianity that's worth believing in, you know, that, that looks like Jesus again. And that's why, you know, at Red Letter Christians, that's what we've said. We want to live as if Jesus meant the stuff he said. And we get our name from the you know, the words of the gospel that are often highlighted in red. But the fact is there's a lot of things that have sort of called themselves Christianity, but they— it doesn't look like Jesus, it doesn't sound like Jesus, it doesn't smell like love. And we know what love is like. And so that's what I— I'm so excited. And we, we've held several red-letter revivals, and we're going to do more of them. But I think we're in You think of young people, I mean, when it comes to advocating for life, um, I mean, one of the, the, the things that we've seen is on the front of, you know, environmental justice, or whether it's advocating for folks who are living on the street, or the, um, the Black Lives Matter movement, um, concerns around immigration and how we can do a better job at welcoming refugees and asylum seekers. So I, I, I find that, that there, there's a real spirit of, um, of hope and of, um, kind of this ability to reimagine the world and this kind of fierce resistance to apathy and going, nah, I mean, don't give us any more excuses, you know. That's why I think they're, they're kind of tired of politicians and a lot of preachers that keep making excuses for, uh, you know, things that we could, we could change in the world.

Yeah. Oh, I, I agree so much. Well, you know, you mentioned, you know, being driven by love a moment ago, and, you know, in, in your new book, In Rethinking Life, there's a question that I think is so important that you ask that kind of drives everything that you're writing about. And you ask this question: what does love require of us? You know, and so all of these things that we could talk about today, whether it be the good questions that young people are asking, the, the good questions revolving around what it means to rethink Life from, from womb to tomb and all the things in between there. I wonder if you could talk just a little bit about that particular question, how, what does love require of us, and how that has been sort of a driving force on your journey, especially as you have written this new book.

Yeah, that, that's such an important piece of this, Rick, you know, and that it is, it is kind of the refrain, you know, I mean, you're a musician, you can kind of keep coming back to this chorus of what does love require of us.. And that just kind of happened, you know, books sort of unfold as you're writing them. And maybe, I don't know, maybe that's how songs are. But I, you know, I kind of, I kept coming back to that. And there's, there's a beautiful quote that I have in the book from Barbara Brown Taylor that is essentially, when my, when my theology or my religion gets in the way of love, and loving my neighbor, I'm going to choose loving my neighbor because God never called me to love my theology. And I think in some ways, politics and stuff can do the same things. We can have these ideologies that, you know, they sound good or look good on paper. But in the end, if it doesn't manifest itself in real concrete acts of love, especially to the most vulnerable people in our society, then yeah, we need to choose love, not our ideologies. And I find that especially on some of these really important but volatile issues like gun violence or abortion or immigration, even, you know, the death penalty. We can have opinions, uh, about people that we don't know.

Yeah, right, exactly.

And I love that scripture that says, you know, we can have faith to move mountains, we can speak in the tongues of men and of angels, we can do all sorts of miracles and prophecies, but if we don't have love, it's still empty. Yeah. So yeah, that's, that's what I keep coming back to. You know, one of the people I point to in the book that is such an inspiration, and, you know, I am grateful to have had the chance to work with was Mother Teresa. And that's, that's where I, you know, I kind of saw what embodied love and conviction looks like. I mean, she cared deeply about abortion, Mother Teresa did. But what that looked like was rescuing kids from train stations that had been abandoned as orphans, taking in 14-year-old women who were pregnant. You know, like it really had flesh on it. And on other issues, too. I mean, before executions, Mother Teresa was picking up the phone, calling governors and praying for them and saying, show mercy, because Jesus said, blessed are the merciful. You know, so yeah.

Yeah. Oh, man, what a powerful witness. And, and, you know, she's one that comes up a lot, actually. I, I've been working as a chaplain, and I'm in a residency program at a hospital this year till about August. So it's been a very busy year, just, you know, working in that way. And Mother Teresa comes up again and again in our conversations, not only from the work that she did, but the way that she honestly struggled with her faith, you know, and she is a good representative of a person that that was going to live out her commitment to the Lord, even if she was living in the silence of God, you know. And I just think that's a powerful, um, witness, you know, that it's not always about the things we're feeling at the time. It's about the actions that we're taking. Getting back to that question that you ask again and again in the book: what does love require of us? So that's so good. Well, you know, I, I want to dig in just a little bit deeper into what you wrote. In the book. And, and in the, the— I think it's chapter 2 where I made a note especially that I wanted to, to make sure we stopped for a moment. I had a feeling it wasn't a part that was probably talked about a lot in places where you've been interviewed. But you talk about, um, in chapter 2, uh, there's this really beautiful story about when you were working at a clinic. And I, I know I'm going to mispronounce it. I think it's, uh, Ganji Prem Nivas? Is that even close?

Oh yeah, man, it's close. Gandhiji Prem Nivas. Yeah, I mean, it means Gandhi's new life.

Okay, Gandhiji Prem Nivas. That sounds so much better when you said it. But, but anyway, the— in the story, uh, you, you're talking with a man who— whose wounds you were wrapping, and, and he, and he looks into your eyes and he says this word namaste, which is a word that probably a lot of us have heard before, but you bring some new significance to that when it's explained to you what it really means from the heart of that culture. And I think it's a, it's a, a very beautiful thing for us to reflect on for a moment, especially as we move from when we were just talking about Mother Teresa and you were in that part of the world. I wonder if you could share just a bit about the beautiful meaning that you discovered, uh, from the people there about the meaning of this word namaste and how they hold it.

Yeah, I think folks that do yoga, uh, you know, hear that word, and there's others that may have heard it. But, um, I mean, it was one of the most profound encounters of my life. I was in this little village, had several hundred people that, um, all had skin diseases. And, um, uh, really leprosy was, uh, different forms of skin neglect that, um, were life-threatening, right? And so, um, in India's caste system, they were also outcasts. So they weren't allowed in restaurants and, um, schools and stores and things like that. So Mother Teresa had created this village, and that's where I had the chance to stay for a bit of time. So this one day, you know, in the clinic, all the clinic is— the whole clinic was run by folks who had been treated for leprosy, and then they were treating one another. But one of them had to leave early, so he sat me down. He said, you're going to— we need your help. And so I'm treating this man's wound and. And we don't share the same language. I tried to pick up a little Bengali and Hindi here and there, but I'm, you know, I'm trying to treat, treat his wound. And then he, in this really profound moment, like we just stare at each other and I'm wrapping his wound up and he says that word, namaste. And, and it was, I had heard it before, but it, he, he wanted to make sure that I didn't just hear it, but I listened. And so we're, we're in this kind of awkward silence, but the guy standing, sitting next to me, he says, "Do you know what that means?" And he explained to me that it's very hard to translate it into English and capture the full depth of it. But he said the best we can do is that the Holy One who lives in me honors the Holy One who lives in you. And man, I mean, so this idea that we're made in the image of God, that's what I'm kind of getting at, you know, in this section and really in the whole book. And And you think of Paul when he wrote, the life I live, I no longer live, but Jesus lives in me. And, you know, all these verses about Christ living in us, or the Spirit dwelling in us, and the songs, right, Rick Lee James, of I'm a Sanctuary, you know.

Yeah.

But to really think, I, I want to look into someone's eyes and have that depth of love and appreciation that I say, I can see Jesus in you, I can see the image of God in you. And I think that changes everything, you know, that we know no matter how much this world has crushed or tried to crush the image of God in someone, we can still see it and know nothing can put out the light, uh, of the Holy One that lives in us. Uh, so I've carried that word with me, you know, and I— it's a beautiful one.

I love that. The Holy One in me honors the Holy One in you. Well, you know, as we, as we get into that whole idea, which I really think drives everything about this book You know, we're looking at the life that God has given us and how we honor that in other people. And when we talk about life, again, you were so right to point out that too often we think of it as just being pro-birth, you know, and not a lot beyond there. And yet the issues around things involving birth are so complicated. Matter of fact, just yesterday, if you don't mind, I want to read just a little bit from a post of a friend of mine, another musician in Nashville. John Tibbs, when we talk about these complicated issues around things like abortion and, and what is abortion versus what is actual real health care that is needed to happen for people. And, and he says, hi everyone, I want to share this story not for any other reason than to raise awareness of a major issue happening right now in the U.S. Sadly, at the end of last year, Emily, his wife, suffered a very hard and complicated miscarriage. We were absolutely devastated. On top of that initial loss, there was such an extra and unnecessary burden placed upon us. After visiting multiple hospitals and having the miscarriage confirmed by 5 different doctors, my wife's care was delayed by a lack of clarity in the trigger laws that have been forced by doctors to choose between malpractice and committing a felony. Due to that, Emily was sent home to miscarry in our home for a month. There were many days she was unable to get out of bed. And he goes on just a little bit about it, but I, I I felt it was so important to, to let a story like John and Emily's to, to come to light today. Like, this is a real thing that just happened, you know, among people that we know and love. It's not, it's not a far-off issue in the news. It's not something else. Um, but, but it tells us why we have to enter in with some nuance into conversations like these, because these are real lives and real people. I can't imagine the, the pain having, you know, my wife and I have been there too through miscarriages, and if my wife would have had suffer for a month at home, you know, waiting on things like that, um, because maybe we weren't willing to have these, these difficult conversations. So I, I love it if, if we could talk just for a minute, because you do such a good job in your book of, of laying out how the church, the early church especially, was, was very anti-abortion, um, but how the conversation is not quite the same, you know, in the way that it was then, in the way that it is now. I wonder if you could maybe just speak to some of the nuance of the differences maybe between what the early church was speaking of, and maybe some of the complicated ways that we talk about the issue right now, if that's not too difficult of a question. I know it seems kind of broad, but I just think it's an important one for us to keep having.

Yeah, and I'm still thinking of the story that you shared, you know, and it really breaks my heart. And I'm so sorry that, you know, folks experience— many people experience similar versions of that story. And And that's why I think it's so important to begin by saying, um, that what does love look like in, in this situation? And, um, and what does it look like to, to care about life in this situation? Some of these are really complicated, um, medical scenarios that folks find themselves in. And this affects so many people. I mean, I, I talk about this, um, in the book that I, I didn't know that my mom, uh, uh, had had an abortion until I started writing this. And I dedicated the book to my mom and my wife, who actually— my wife writes her own story, you know, in the book. But, um, 1 in 4 women have been impacted by this. And so that, I mean, that, that should, um, create a little different, um, posture in our heart, you know, as we're thinking about, um, something so complicated and so personal. I hosted two town halls on this with my friend Lisa Sharon Harper, and we had folk, women in particular, that had been impacted. And one of those was a woman who had had an abortion late in pregnancy. And we often hear the, you know, these kind of talking points, right, of like late-term abortion. And yet in her case, she was carrying twins and lost one of those. And not only was the other twin's life at risk and all this, but her own life was at risk and all that. And I mean, what a nightmare, a horrific situation to be in, right? And you think like, I don't know how I would navigate that. But the people that make it seem so just about you're a murderer if you do this or something like it seemed, it seems so unchristlike, right? So I think it's important to have a better conversation about abortion. And that's what we've tried to do. In these town halls and to, to, um, but also to realize that, um, while scripture is pretty vague on this, I mean, we have very little in scripture that can really, you know, speak directly to the issue of abortion. Jesus doesn't mention it. That doesn't mean it doesn't matter. I always say Jesus never mentioned nuclear weapons either, but I think God cares about them. But, but the early church did. Um, abortion was very prevalent, and they spoke, um, very passionately about it. But it is important that the way that we think about abortion, you know, um, 2,000 years later was pretty different. Their version of abortion included things like exposure, which was leaving a newborn child to die in the wilderness or, you know, in the desert or the, the forest. Um, and, um, and it was often men who were making that decision because they kind of the power brokers and the regulators of life in one sense. And so, you know, to think about a medication or a pill, you know, the day-after pill or something that might stop a pregnancy early on is pretty different from what we would call murder, you know, leaving a child in the wilderness. That doesn't— I'm not trying to conflate those and just saying that they were very passionate. Even about, um, terminating a pregnancy in the womb. And it's— I think it's helpful to know that because I look to the early church for a lot of cues on things, right? They were really near to Jesus. They had this fresh passion of life. But what's also, like, unmistakable and so important is how comprehensive their, um, passion for life was. So not only were they speaking against abortion, but they were speaking passionately against the death penalty, uh, around war and combat. And I mean, even went so far as to say like a Christian can't be in the military unless they commit not to kill. Yeah. Um, and, and they spoke against the gladiatorial games, which they saw as this sort of, um, you know, cultural glamorization, you know, uh, of violence and, um, in, in their own world. So That's— I think that's really helpful, you know, and then to say, so, you know, let's advocate for life without exceptions. And let's also— let's also talk about abortion. And the fact is that, you know, in our world, the number one reason listed for abortion is usually financial stability, just feeling like the person doesn't have the resources to have a child or to have another child brought into their, their life.. And so if we really care about that, then you would think that we would advocate for things that might, that might make having a child more, uh, financially viable, you know, that we might advocate for child care and health care and living wage and, you know, things that would, would, um, along with the pastoral work, you know, walking alongside people, volunteering crisis centers and all that stuff. But I think there's also policies that reduce abortion. And I'm not just talking about laws that would make it illegal or something, you know, but I think we could advocate for things that are life-giving.

Yeah.

Policies. And I mean, I do think that we, we can, just as we talk about gun violence, we have the language for common sense gun laws that would limit the capacity of guns, you know, that would keep dangerous people from getting them, domestic abusers from getting them, having background checks, you know, these are common sense gun laws. Having a limit to the amount of handguns, you know, one person can't have more than 12 handguns a year that they buy. You know, I think those are like reasonable laws. Yeah, I think we can have conversations around abortion and other policy issues that go, you know, if it's not a medical thing, like then no one's going to have a late— an abortion late in their pregnancy. And, you know, people talk as if like a mother just decides 8 months in, I don't want this kid. And I'm yet to find a a single person that had an abortion late in their pregnancy that it wasn't someone's life that was at stake.

Yeah, yeah, I agree that. And, and working around a hospital now too, especially, I, I see just how painful it is. It's, it's, it's never a decision that people cheer about when they make it. It's never an easy one, and it usually is filled with so much pain and heartbreak. And, and, uh, so anyway, I, I appreciate you, you touching on these difficult things. You know, years ago, your, your dear friend Tony Campolo, He wrote a couple of books about hot potatoes Christians are afraid to touch, you know. And I feel like this is, this is almost a book that's, you know, Hot Potatoes 2.0, you know, when it comes out. But you do touch on some of these difficult topics and you alluded to it as well. Another thing I really wanted to talk with you about, because I'm very interested and passionate about it as well, is the idea of the early church and its relationship with the military. And the idea. And I want to read a quote just real quick before we go too far in, because you have a great quote. It says, it's a strange thing, thing to live in a world where we can be pro-military, pro-guns, pro-executions, and still say we are pro-life so long as we stand against abortion. Um, and but alas, that's where we find ourselves. And, and when you talk in, in the book, um, it's something I'm glad to see someone writing about, because I've read about it a number of times as I've read the early church fathers and, uh, different writings about military service. But But help us expand our imagination a bit, Shane, if you could this morning, because there was not necessarily a prohibition against being in the military, which is very interesting in the early church, but there was a prohibition against killing. And I, I'd love for us to just think for a minute about the idea of like, uh, we so often associate killing with the military, but imagine there are many other things that that the military can be used for that are actually life-giving, aren't there? And, and the, the amount of courage and dedication it would take for a Christian even today to say, I will be in the military, uh, but I will not kill. I, you know, I'm working with, uh, Seventh-day Adventists in the, the chaplaincy work that I'm doing, and I believe his name was Desmond Doss. They made a movie about him a few years ago about the one he joined. He literally joined the military but would not carry a weapon. He simply wanted to be there to, to give life, to save life and help life, and literally went on the battlefield not as a chaplain, as a soldier, but with no weapons so that he could save people. And I, I love that whole idea of like what a countercultural thing for a Christian to do. So that very long prelude to this— help us this morning, Shane, like in— we— when we use our imagination in this way, what does it mean for a Christian to be in the military, and how does being a Christian make a difference? In that?

It's such an important question, uh, and, and I like the way that you framed it because it's exactly right. The, the early Christians said that, you know, they, they were debating this, um, but one of the things that they were saying is that some of them said you could be in the military as long as you committed not to kill. And that, that, you know, we think of that now, um, maybe in a different light, but, you know, in that time, the the military was building aqueducts and roads and doing all sorts of things other than fighting wars. But the early Christians were really clear that if there does come a point where there is combat, then you would, uh, refuse to kill. And Christians were killed for that, for refusing— for refusing to kill. So this was also an act of conscientious objection or civil disobedience, you know, um, And so they're generally, they were saying, like, serving in the military is incompatible with our commitment to Christ. Because there's going to be that collision. And they, you know, the, the early Christians said, for Christ, we can die, but we cannot kill. And they often referred to, you know, when Jesus disarmed Peter, when he picks up his sword, and they would say things like, when Jesus disarmed Peter He disarmed all of us. Because if ever there was a case for using violence to protect the innocent, Peter had the case. But the sword and the cross give us two different versions of power. We might even say the sword and the gun, or the bomb, right? There, um, you can't love your enemies and simultaneously prepare to kill them. Like, this becomes a collision of interest. And it's interesting because today I think of so many of my friends that have felt that collision in their soul. Um, friends in Iraq that said said, you know, I'm trying to love my enemies, but I'm also being given orders that feel like they're in direct collision with my commitment to Christ. And one of them literally said, I don't feel like I can carry the cross in one hand and a military weapon in the other. So you kind of feel that I'm trying to serve two masters thing, you know. And what I think is troubling is that, um, if you went into the U.S. military saying, I'm a Christian so I can't kill, they would be like, well, then you— I'm not sure this is the best job for you. That's kind of exactly the point, is that being committed to Christ might not be compatible with some jobs. And I, you know, I kind of also point to others, like, you know, the early Christians also mentioned running a brothel, right? It might be hard to do that job as a Christian, right?

Right, exactly.

But, um, you know, I think we're, we're a little bit more, um, conditioned culturally to try to keep these together. And I think what we do is we set people up for kind of moral injury or an injury of consciousness, collision in their soul. Um, and I, I have another friend that I work with at Red Letter Christians, um, uh, Diana Oestreich, and she wrote a book called Waging Peace. And in it, she talks about her story as a sharpshooter and someone brought into combat as a Christian. She began to feel this idea that I can't kill, and she was being desensitized. I mean, literally, she was told, if you can't, you know, run over people with, you know, combat vehicles, then you're going to be in a position where you're disobeying orders. And she ultimately had to, you know, redo her, you know, I mean, find— she found her whole vocation in the midst of that. So I think those are really important questions. And even military chaplains are told— I was just meeting with one last week— they're told, you're a soldier first, you're a chaplain second, you know. And so you can't be a voice of conscience in some ways, or you face losing your job if you do it. If you say to folks, you know, you shouldn't kill. So I think that's why, you know, what the early Christians said was really important. Um, and it's really hard, I think, for us to imagine, you know, can— could, could you go into the military as a Christian saying, I'm committed to loving my enemies, I'm not going to carry a weapon, I'm not going to kill anyone? Um, and, uh, I don't know, you know, I think there's all kinds of ways that we can try to follow Christ. Um, but, uh, it raises some important questions for us.

It is. And I, and I appreciate the, the way that you explain those things. And I And I want to say at the same time, I'm grateful for the people in my congregation who have served in the military, and I think who have done it in ways that have honored Christ, you know. And I believe it can be done, but I think it's tricky. Like you said, it may be, it may be something where when the time comes to it, you may have to decide who your Lord really is for sure, you know, in those, in those matters. But again, I appreciate the nuance that you bring when you're talking about that. It just brought up a memory from probably 20 years ago when I walked into a church on on Sunday morning, and it was on one of the patriotic, you know, days that I come to dread sometimes in churches. And I walk in and there's a man dressed in full military uniform with a gun standing in front of the communion table as service is beginning. And I thought, my goodness, the fact that— I don't know what's worse, seeing that or seeing that nobody in this congregation seems to have a problem with it. You know, the idea that it feels like a failure of discipleship in so many ways. Um, so I again appreciate you having these difficult conversations.

Um, yeah, I was thinking of that song, uh, I was trying to look it up here, the While the Nations Rage, right? You know, I mean, he said, you know, he says that, you know, they plot and scheme, why do the nations rage, their bullets can't stop the praise, we, the prayers we pray in the name of the Prince of Peace. You know, you kind of think of that, like, I didn't grow up, Rich grew up, you know, and very influenced by the Quaker tradition, which is committed to nonviolence. My dad was in the military. So I've been discovering all this stuff, Rick, you know, but the more I lean into Jesus, the more I see that the early Christians were right, you know, for Christ, we can die, but we cannot kill. And I mean, some of this came when I was in Iraq. And this was exactly 20 years ago this month, the anniversary of when we were there. And I write about this in Rethinking Life, you know, that the US was dropping 900 bombs a day on Iraq. And I, we, I lived there in Baghdad, and we went to hospitals that where a bomb hit the children's ward. We went to a school that was bombed by the US and coalition troops. We went to a shelter, Amariya Shelter, that was filled with women and children when we dropped two smart bombs on it and killed everyone inside. So I think all of this like, you know, we, we sometimes look back and we think that we are using violence to try to rid the world of evil, but we often become, um, the very thing that we are trying to heal the world of. And you think of, like, when it comes to the weapons of mass destruction, like nuclear weapons, we're the only country that has used those, and we did it twice in one week in Hiroshima and Nagasaki and killed hundreds of thousands of people. So right now we look at Russia and go, I mean, this is, this is horrible evil, and it is. Um, but we've, we've often been, um, on the other side of that. And, you know, remembering in Iraq as those bombs were falling on us, thinking that, you know, this is our country that's dropping those. And I was there during Lent, in the season of Easter, you know, praying with Christians for peace and volunteering in the hospitals. So a lot of this, you know, as I say in is where we sit determines what we see. And, you know, when I was in Iraq with Christians in Iraq, um, they are— they were very, very deeply heartbroken that Christians were not more of a voice of conscience against the bombing and the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for, for sharing that with us today because it's something we don't talk about enough. I agree with you. And, and you know what, and unfortunately, I want to be conscious of your time as well today. So it was probably only one or two more topics we can hit on today. And I, I want to refer everybody to your book, which I, I definitely am going to have, um, in the show notes that hopefully they'll just be able to click on a link and get right to it that way, if all the technology works the way it's supposed to. But, you know, there's, there's a topic that I'm so glad you talked about, and we could, we could go on a lot. You've done— you're doing so much work with, uh, trying to end capital punishment, and I'm so grateful for your work with doing that. But, you know, there's, there's another kind of really dark spot on American history that we don't talk about very often. It's starting to be talked about more. And I think of just, just a couple of months before he passed away, I had a chance to go and listen to James Cone when he had just written his new book, The Cross and the Lynching Tree. And, and it brought to mind some of the things that you write about in your book when you were writing about lynchings and, and and the way that it happened in this nation. And so often it was, you know, kind of the church that was actively being a part of this, not seeing any disconnect between, you know, their discipleship and let's go out after church and have a lynching and take pictures and sell concessions and all kinds of things like that, which is just horrible when we think about it today. And there's a number of racially related issues that you have there. Here. In my experience, and I can only imagine in your experience, anytime that I bring up, even bring up a topic such as this, I immediately, at least in social media and among people, it's immediately, you know, lambasted, and you're called all kinds of terrible names, and it suddenly turns into reverse racism and everything, you know. It's, it's like, it's just a hard thing to talk about for people, I think, because it is such a dark spot. But I, I would, I would love to pause just for a moment because you talk about everything from— there's whole sections in your book in Part 2, we talk about the Crusades, the Inquisition, the transatlantic slave trade, the conquest of the Americas. But then we get to lynching and Jim Crow laws. And I think people would be surprised to find out that lynchings were still legal until 2022. I mean, there was no law against that, which tells us how deep of a part it was in our history. Would you mind just kind of talking a little bit about that with us? Because just because slavery ended, it didn't necessarily end, and it leads into other things. And you talk about incarceration and things like that, and, and lynchings are, are an especially heinous part of our, our past that, again, if we don't acknowledge it— and we're in the season of Lent— if we don't confess it, if we don't begin to say, you know, Lord, hear our prayer for forgiveness on this and help us to change and repent and do better, then I don't know if ever going to be able to heal. And I'd love to just, just hear some words from you on that this morning, if you don't mind.

Yeah, man. Well, I mean, that's a great starting point, is that in our tradition, um, as Christians, we believe that confession is, is, um, a holy and faithful act, um, that confessing our sins to one another, um, is the beginning of repentance and repair and healing and makes room for the Spirit to move um, the truth will set us free, right? That's what we believe. And, and I think we sometimes make that so individualistic and so personal that we miss the truth that this is also true as a nation. Um, it's true of all kinds of people in, in scripture, you know, that, that, that we, we're not just judged as individuals, we're judged as, as, as, as nations and as people. And, and some of this history was our national history. And as my friend Bryan Stevenson says, we, we can't get our future right until we get our history right.

Right.

And there's some of this that Dr. King talks about being like an untreated wound, right, that we just keep rebandaging and it just keeps getting worse. And until we actually treat it and address it, it's going to continue to make us sick. And that's— I think a lot of our racial history is about that. And that's why we have this culture war happening., around critical race theory, which is kind of the shiny object to distract us from really talking about truth, right? That— and you can have multiple truths, you know. We can have, like, uh, people can say good things and also, um, say untrue things. And I try to, like, you know, be, be truthful about that in my book. You know, Martin Luther, um, said some beautiful things and some not beautiful things, uh, you know. Um, Thomas Jefferson person, you know, helped create some of our beautiful language around the founding documents. But he also exploited a 14-year-old woman, girl. That would be illegal. And she, you know, she was an enslaved person that was still enslaved as he was. She was his mistress. And, you know, I mean, abuse and exploitation. I think we've got to tell those stories. And lynching is one of those. So like, I think what we got to be— to do is get rid of the mythology of America and tell the truth about our history. And Brian, you know, has done some of the most thorough work with the Equal Justice Initiative on documenting lynching. And one of the things he did years ago that I remember, I was down there in Montgomery with him, is that he put a map up of all the Confederate monuments throughout the South and in Alabama in particular. And then in a map of the memorials to folks who were lynched, and there were almost none, only the ones that they had began to install. And so now there's historic markers that are being put up to remember those lives that were lost, that were, uh, really a part of racialized terror. I mean, they were never really tried for any accusations. They were often just allegations, sometimes just calling someone referring to someone as ma'am or sir, or walking on the wrong side of the street. I mean, these were not even crimes, right, that people were lynched for. Um, so that's, you know, when I look at scripture, there's one that I talk about in the book, Rick, that I think so appropriate to all this. And it talks about how we're in Corinthians, we're all one body with many parts. But then as you get to the end of that verse that's very familiar to a lot of us. Um, it says the parts of the body which have been dishonored are now given special honor. And you think, man, that, that's so deep, right? And, um, so my friend Alexia Salvatierra calls this God's affirmative action. God's affirming what we have refused to affirm. So that's why it's so important important to be able to say Black Lives Matter, because historically we have said that white lives matter more, right? Um, I mean, in the Dred Scott case, we say Black folks don't have any rights that white people have to acknowledge. We said that Black folks are three-fourths, two-thirds human, you know. We said that, like, um, that, that, um, even as we said all men are created, uh, all men are created equal, those same folks writing that document owned Black folks as property. So this is a, you know, there's that kind of paradox inherent in American history. And so now to say Black Lives Matter is simply to be specific about the folks that have been historically dishonored. And it's not to say white lives don't matter or Black lives matter more, you know. And, and I think matter is a starting point. I think we should be able to say like Black lives are sacred. And you're in another place, like Palestinian lives are sacred, right? Uh, yeah, I mean, Jewish lives are sacred. If we can't affirm with specificity and particularity that this person is made in the image of God, they are beautiful, they are holy, uh, then there is a hole in our theology, I think, you know. And I, I think that's, uh, where we're at, is, is, is, um, to heal some of that history history, we need to be able to say Native lives matter, right? And, you know, and this is not going away. I think, you know, Ahmaud Arbery was killed in Georgia as he was running, taking a jog. Yeah. And, and, and, and when it comes to the death penalty, this is also important, is that Brian says it, you know, it's the direct descendant of lynching. As we move from lynching to execution, executions, Black folks were 75% of the executions that were being carried out, even though they were like a very small, like 20% of the population. Now about 12% of the population, but it's still half of death row, you know, is African American. So that legacy is still there. And this is what's stunning, is exactly where lynchings were happening 100 years ago, is where executions are happening today. The same, the same states that held on to slavery the longest have held on to the death penalty. And so if we want to heal those wounds of history, um, and I think particularly as Christians, right, if we want to, to champion life and say every person is made in the image of God, then, you know, racial justice and eliminating the death penalty and addressing mass incarceration— these are also issues. Yeah, that are about being for life.

Yeah, amen. Well, I agree with you, and I want to maybe close our conversation today with just something you wrote. It's in part 3 of your book, and your book is broken into 3 parts, just so everybody— a reminder to them as they're listening.. But I thought it said this very well pertaining to what you just said. You write, we need to tell the truth about ourselves. We need to tell the truth about history. We need to tell the truth about the sins of our past, even if we were not directly responsible. And we need to tell the truth about the church's complicity with evil, even if it wasn't all the church all the time, even if the church was simultaneously faithful and unfaithful. Grateful. And I, I really appreciate the way that you wrote that because that's— those are often the arguments that we hear on the other side. Well, I didn't do it, it wasn't me. But there is a sense in which we are the body of Christ together, and the good, the bad, and the ugly. And if we can't confess some of the things— and, um, it's amazing how healing it can be when we can actually become people with a humble attitude that come with a non-anxious this, a non-judgmental presence into places like this and into conversations like these where we can hopefully be agents for healing and people who are going to ask those important questions about what does it mean to love, you know, what does it mean to love well in this world, how do we carry this out in our faith and in our lives. So I, I want to thank you for— we, we've only scratched the surface of the, the powerful things that you've been writing about in this book today, but I really appreciate you, and I, I don't always get a chance to, to see you very often like this and, and have a conversation. Uh, so I just want to thank you while I have you here with me. Um, thank you for the way that you have dedicated your life to the Lord, and even when it's taken you to difficult, uncomfortable places at times. I appreciate the way that you have surrounded yourself with community, uh, the way that you are being a person of grace in this world and helping us to have these difficult conversations, or as we say, you know, hot potatoes 2.0, if we want to use the language that. But, but truly, I'm grateful. And I'm, I'm thinking I may actually close the podcast today with a song called Love Our Enemies, which I released a few years ago, but it just feels like it's appropriate to our conversation today as we think about what it means to love, not just from womb to tomb, but also even to love our enemies, as Jesus has called us into that place. All difficult things, but still part of the Gospel. So I'm grateful for that. Um, before we do, uh, kind of, kind of close out today, is there anything we missed, anything that you just really wanted to talk about today and they're like, doggone it, we forgot to talk about this? I, I always want to give our guests a chance to, to say anything that we might have missed.

Oh man, it's always a gift to be with you, my brother. And, um, you know, I, I, I would just say, you know, follow us on social media and join the Red Letter Christians movement because if we, we really are centered around Jesus and trying to live like he meant the stuff he said. So join us at redletterchristians.org. We'll, we'll all be better off with more of you as friends. So thank you, my brother, and, uh, we'll do it again soon.

And thank you. Well, Shane Claiborne, thank you for once again being one of the voices in my head this week. O God, you have made one blood of all the peoples of the earth and sent your blessed Son Jesus to preach peace to those who are far off and to those who are near. Grant that people everywhere may seek after you and find you. Bring the nations into your fold. Pour out your Spirit upon all flesh. Flesh, and hasten the coming of your kingdom, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Amen. The Prince of Peace. If we will enter in his kingdom, we must love our enemies. Lord, deliver us from hatred, prejudice, and cruelty. Come remove discrimination, that the truth may set us free. Lord and Maker of creation, every life is dear to thee. In the holy name of Jesus, help us to be free. Help us love our enemies. Jesus is our true example, showing us the face of God. When he chose to die for sinners, rather than to shed their blood. Father, show us how to love them with your mercy from above. For our enemies are brothers. We've forgotten how to love. Lord and Maker of creation, every life life is dear to thee. In the holy name of Jesus, help us love our enemies. So we'll fight them with affection. We will conquer them with grace. Till our enemies see Jesus when they look into our face. It is time for his pleasure. Pray we all will stand one day reconciled before the Father, and the old has passed away. God and Maker of creation, every life is dear to thee. In the holy name of Jesus, help us love our enemies. Be. You have made us in your image. You redeemed us through your Son. Let our souls be turned to plowshares and our hearts be turned to love. Let our hearts be turned to love. Let our hearts be turned to love.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. Music on the intro and outro of this show is from my single, As I Walk. Walk These Halls, which can be streamed on any streaming platform, including Spotify. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, schedule me for a concert, a speaking engagement, a podcast, or even a book signing in your neighborhood. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. The more positive reviews we receive, the more visible this podcast will be. And now the benediction: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope.