Episode 531 - Pamela Cooper-White and the Psychology of Christian Nationalism

Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, a songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more with friends, colleagues, and sometimes just by myself. Now make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes or by tweeting at me @RickLeeJames on Twitter. And please join my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. By the way, in case you're interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the voices in my head. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of Voices in My Head.

Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I am your host, Rick Lee James, and I am so grateful for all all of you who are listening today. Thank you for being here for what I know is going to be another wonderful conversation. How do we overcome polarization in American society? How do we advocate for justice when one side won't listen to the other and cycles of outrage escalate? Well, these questions have been pressing for years, but the emergence of a vocal, virulent Christian nationalism have made it even more urgent that we find a way forward. In one of her newest books, The Psychology of Christian Nationalism, our guest today, Pamela Cooper White, uncovers the troubling extent of Christian nationalism, explores its deep psychological roots, and discusses ways in which advocates for justice can safely and effectively attempt to talk across the deep divides in our society. An Episcopal priest and pastoral psychotherapist, Dr. Cooper-White is a certified clinical fellow in the American Association of Pastoral Counselors, a National Board Certified Counselor, and a licensed clinical professional counselor in the state of Illinois. Reverend Dr. Pamela Cooper-White, welcome to Voices in My Head.

Thank you so much, Rick. It's a pleasure to be with you.

Well, and I, I'm going to let everybody know at the outset, uh, that if they go to our website for this podcast of Voices in myheadpodcast.com, or just wherever they listen. And there's a much more extensive bio of you because you have such an impressive resume. There's so many things that you have done. So I would love for people just to find out more about you and, and the many books that you have written. But I want to thank you with deep gratitude from my heart for your work on many subjects over the years. Books like Shared Wisdom, which we used often in my CPE program to talk about transference and countertransference, and now in psychology class that I'm taking where writings from you have come up again and again. And today, it is just a privilege to get to talk to you about this, this new book that has meant so much to me and helped me to understand so many things. So thank you so much for taking the time to be here today.

Oh, thank you.

Well, let's just begin today, because I know there's going to be a lot of people asking this question, and maybe wondering, well, what's wrong with that? And the question is, what is Christian nationalism?

Right. Well, and sociologists of religion have been refining the definition over the last, say, 5 years. But the most recent surveys have asked people to agree or disagree with 5 statements which basically describe the tenets of Christian nationalism, uh, that the United States government should declare America a Christian nation formally, that U.S. laws should be based on Christian values. If the U.S. moves away from our Christian foundations, we will not have a country anymore. Being Christian is an important part of being truly American, and God has called Christians to exercise dominion over all areas of American society. So, you know, as Christians, we might look at some of those statements as, well, okay, you know, that makes some sense. But we really need to understand that this is a movement that developed in alliance with very, very right-wing political operatives. And it's basically a social and political movement with the goal of restoring the United States to a fictional origin as a Christian nation with a not at all fictional origin in white masculine supremacy. Christian nationalists erroneously believe that all of the founders and the writers of the Constitution were all evangelical Christians, which is simply not historically true. And particularly as Reconstructionism, which is a theological thread that has infiltrated a lot of evangelical Christianity but has really provided the foundational theological ideological roots for this movement, it's perceived as a battle to restore a threatened white dominance in government and in all of civic and private life, and cloaked as a cosmic battle of good and evil to bring about the second coming of the reign of Christ on Earth.

Wow. Well, that is quite a, a big definition, actually. I don't know that a lot of our listeners knew that it was actually defined in such a way. So maybe you could help us understand then how that is different than just pure patriotism, as you have outlined in your book.

Right. I mean, patriotism is love of country. And many, if not all of us, have a certain affection and loyalty for the country that we were born to. And there's nothing wrong with loving the land of the United States or loving its democratic principles, even though we often fail to live up to them. But nationalism— and this is not just unique to the United States— nationalism as a political movement everywhere that we see it is a fight for ethnic superiority. And that leads easily to violence. And at its worst, it's genocidal, as in the Russian attack on Ukraine. But we see a lot of nationalist movements cropping up all over Europe. Hungary, for example, is, is a very prime example of that. Currently, there's a tilt toward the right in Italy. There's a persistent 25 to 30%, uh, very right-wing pro-Austrian thread in Austria, and so forth. And so we see these strongmen leaders who pump up love of country as being an ethnic superiority where the true American, the true Hungarian, the true, the true Russian is someone who is a particular ethnic group and that that defines what the country is.

Wow.

Well, thank you for helping us understand that a little bit more in depth. And for some reason, as you write about in your book, you discuss the rise of Christian nationalism within white evangelicalism especially. I was wondering if you might be able to explain why this ideology has gained traction within this particular religious group, especially in our country.

Right. Well, 88% of Christian nationalists are white evangelical Protestants, but that still leaves 12% who are not. But among white evangelical Protestants. The latest statistics say that 84% agree. And there's also a significant swath of Catholics who call themselves integralists who also agree with Christian nationalism along many of the same lines. This is not a new phenomenon. It was given a louder voice from the time that former President Trump first ran for office in 2015, but it has been simmering along really in this iteration of it since the Reagan administration. And there's always been in America a white nationalism that has been fused with some sort of Christian religious fervor going all the way back to the founding of the country by the white settlers. I also think that there is a kind of moral injury, which is when one is traumatized by what one has done or what one's group has done. That goes all the way back to the genocidal origins of this country where we wiped out Native Americans and imported Black slaves into bondage in this country. So unfortunately, the founding of the nation with its European Enlightenment ideals, which I think are beautiful ideals, but nevertheless, they are founded in white supremacy in the way that they were imported here.

Wow.

So this is not a new movement. And one of the, one of the phenomena that is kind of fused with this movement is a nostalgia for the pre-Civil War South, which of course is also a nostalgia for an era where Blacks were enslaved. But there's still a lot of Lost Cause rhetoric that gets piled up together with Christian nationalism, particularly in the South. And throughout Christian nationalism, there's an appeal to nostalgia, like the good old times when all of us, in quotation marks, were happier. And all of us, of course, doesn't include most of the groups of people in the United States who did not enjoy privilege. But there is a real erosion. Of white supremacy in this country, just numerically, we know that the Census Bureau has said that by 2020, uh, 2042, I believe it is, that whites will no longer be a majority in this country. So for many of us, that's an exciting prospect, that the United States becomes more diverse and more culturally rich. But for people who perhaps the only thing they had to cling to was that being white was better than being non-white,, and now that's being taken away from them. And so there's a lot of fear around loss of jobs, which is statistically not accurate, loss of authority, loss of a sense of dignity that has been built up but on a misplaced notion that being white is better.

Wow. Yeah, it's, it's very interesting. Hearing all of that and hearing all the ways that it's kind of become intertwined in so many ways with, with a certain segment of the population. And you're right, there is that connection to nostalgia. I think sometimes we, we think back to, well, wouldn't it be nice if everything was like Mayberry again? And yet we often overlook that, you know, there's a certain group of people that were not in Mayberry that, you know, were left on the outskirts of town. I remember talking with, I believe it was with Walter Brueggemann, on a couple of years ago on this podcast, and he was saying, he said, I grew up in a town very much like Mayberry. He said, and we made sure that all of the people who were othered were pushed outside of town and were not allowed to be a part, you know, of things. It was, it was a very interesting juxtaposition to think about in ways that a lot of us don't often think. So, great again for who is a good question. And, you know, and also in your book, you, you dive into why people are drawn in to Christian nationalist groups, and you've already mentioned some of that this morning. But there is this cult-like behavior that you write about in the book, and I wonder if you could elaborate a little bit on what drives individuals to, to join, or maybe even some of the recruitment process that is involved. Because some people might think, how in the world would a person ever get involved in this, especially if they see some of the darker side of things? But they, they really are recruited, I believe, as you write about.

Right. Well, and of course, with social media, you have an ever-reinforcing bubble that once somebody is drawn in a little bit, they tend to get then drawn in a lot because it's inescapable. In my book, I talk about conscious motivations and unconscious motivations. So if you've got a little bit of time, I can run through the conscious motivations first and then talk a little bit about the unconscious dynamics that I You know, I'm psychoanalytically trained and oriented. So I also always think about what's going on at the unconscious level. But conscious motivations, I mean, this is a very powerful one, belonging. And so there's a heightened sense of purpose and bring— being brought together with other people in a moral battle to engage with others, even in a sort of a cosmic battle of good versus evil. There are a lot of Christian nationalist preachers who really do talk about spiritual warfare. Affair as fighting the devil and fighting evil in this country, and then that becomes politicized. So once you— the way people get drawn into these things, this is part of your question, cult-like recruiting tactics, a lot of times, uh, moving people along from being visitors to seekers to believers, especially, that's a very well-known megachurch tactic at this point that's actually been adopted by many churches of all stripes. Uh, but the cult-like recruiting aspect of this that happens really intensely, uh, with, with, uh, particularly fundamentalist and evangelical churches is love bombing. Uh, reaching out to people and, and telling them how much they would love being in this community because everybody is all about love, and then bombarding them with the same messages repeatedly and the use of media. And then within the use of media, predicting opposition from liberals who are vilified, thus nullifying whatever so-called liberals would say against what they're doing. So they're going to tell you this, but it's a lie. It's the devil working in them. So belonging and staying in the group, which is very hard to leave once you're in a group because even if you begin to question things, you might kind of get slapped down a little bit. And, and if you do try to leave, you're leaving behind people that you have now bonded with and you care about. And so any good person is going to feel some hesitance to leave a group that has cared for them, even when the care has morphed into something that's more like, um, shaping you into who they want you to be.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, there are two forms of fear that also drive the conscious motivations. One is the fear of the loss of white social status, which I mentioned already. Um, and part of that fear also has— the second fear really has to do with, um, the evangelical Christian belief in male headship, which reinforces a fear of the loss of patriarchal authority, both in home and in public. And so the recent revelations of the Southern Baptist Convention's cover-up of sexual abuse is really not surprising given the tendency to protect and elevate men's rule over women and children. And the Supreme Court's overturning of Roe v. Wade also relates to the control over women's bodies. Um, I do want to say that guns come into play with this sort of nostalgia and desire to preserve patriarchy, because of course a gun is a potent symbol of masculinity. And almost half of evangelical Christians own guns, according to the latest research, whereas less than 30%, slightly less than 30% of mainline Christians do. And while there may be a prejudicial trope about Blacks being those who own the most guns and are the most violent. Actually, Black Protestants are the least likely to own guns. And this might be a good time to also mention as an aside that while theologically many Black churches would align with some of the tenets that you see in white evangelical churches, they also align politics often with faith, but in a completely different way, because in Christian nationalism, what you have is an alignment of politics with the alt-right, essentially. Whereas, and they oppose, they oppose the rights of people of color, as we've seen, very actively opposing voter rights. They oppose immigrants. They oppose Muslims. They, as in ages of old, oppose Jews. And so, and they oppose LGBTQ, liberal LGBTQIA legislation. There's a playbook actually that they use rather frequently from a group called Project Blitz that proposes model legislation for all of these oppositions. Right now they're focusing also again on abortion, but they're also focusing on anti-trans legislation. And it's no surprise that these bills look so similar because many of them are coming from the same source, which came out of the Congressional Prayer Caucus. Um, but what I want to say about Black church Protestants is that yes, they align politics with religion, but they align it with the social gospel mandate of Jesus and the gospel toward healing and empowerment and justice, whereas the white evangelical conservatives tend to be aligning against holding on to the conservative principles.

And then— sorry, no, I was just going to say that's a very important distinction. So thank you for making that. But please continue.

Oh, absolutely. And since the Southern Baptist Convention's waffling on its statements back and forth. I've outlined this a lot more in my book, um, uh, that there's a kind of a one step forward, two steps back kind of waffling about apologies for racism and so forth. But a lot of Black evangelicals have stopped wanting to even use the term evangelical because they now equate it with, with white supremacy within the Baptist home. And then this sort of blends toward, uh, the unconscious motivations, but it's kind of on the borderline of that, and that's the allure of conspiracy theories. Trump's big lie about election fraud, uh, was an excuse for voter suppression. About 50% of white evangelical Protestants agree with QAnon, according to a Denison University study, and 1 in 5 Americans actually agree with QAnon as well. And at, at the incursion, uh, the insurrection at the Capitol, um, you saw flags that incorporated both Christian symbols and QAnon symbols. So, um, if you're surrounded by— this kind of goes back to the recruiting thing— if you're surrounded by going to church or watching a televangelist on TV where there's this sort of heart-arousing, physiologically arousing music and very fiery oratory and a whole bunch of people together with you imbibing all of this, it really creates a kind of a groupthink that is very hard to resist. Even if you go in thinking that you're resisting it, it's very hard to resist the emotional and physiological pull of this kind of of, um, style of worship. And in fact, in some cases it's difficult to tell the difference between a political rally on the right and a Christian right worship service because praise music and often thumping rock music and political and religious imagery and speech are all being melded together. And it— an epitome of this would be the reawakening tour that Michael Flynn has started going all over the country, charging people $250 to $500 to come in. It's like a big rally. It's a rally for Christ and the alt-right, and you can even get baptized there in a big metal tub if you so choose. Now, the other unconscious, the most important unconscious factor, I think, is that we all know that group persuasion is a very powerful thing, and it's also— it operates at both conscious and unconscious levels. I'm going to actually quote Freud, which is not always a popular thing to do, but Freud's little book, The Group Psychology and the Analysis of the Ego, if you read it, it reads just like it was written for yesterday for our current situation, that Freud's innovation was that, um, it was already understood that there was a kind of group persuasion that would happen in groups, but what Freud talked about was the importance of a narcissistic leader. And that in Freudian terms, but we could translate this into everyday terms as well, in Freudian terms, the members of the group unconsciously hand over their conscience, their superego, their ego ideal. They hand over their sense of moral responsibility to this powerful leader. And then they follow whatever the leader says is good and bad. And the great relief that that can provide for people who are weary of trying to figure out what to do and what's right and wrong. And now we have this person who says, literally Trump said, I am your redemption and your retribution. It's very easy to just go, ah, he's gonna, he's gonna set it right. And I'm just going to follow him no matter what. And that kind of explains why people can disregard all of the other swirl of political issues that he's facing right now, or all of his legal troubles, because they can believe him when he says, that's a witch hunt, they're trying to attack you, and I will protect you. So you've got this psychological splitting between all good and all bad, this cosmic battle of good and evil, and the fusion of religion and politics, and the immense pressure of groupthink all being consolidated under a narcissistic leader who says he's for you, but he's actually only always for himself.

Hmm.

Wow.

My goodness. Well, you know, there's so much that you just brought that I want to comment on. Um, but you did explain so well. I feel like for years I've been scratching my head thinking, how is the church behind this man? You know, I don't, I don't understand it. And yet the way that you have just described it in the way that you write about it, um, it does explain so much about sort of handing our, our morals over, handing over these things to this person that in, in really what seems like a very black and white way of thinking. There's not a lot of, a lot, not a lot of nuance there, you know, into looking deeper. It's just this person says he knows what's right, I'm going to give it over to him. It's just easier that way.

Um, so it's an us versus them, which is always very seductive for all Right.

And what I continually hear is, is, you know, yeah, but the other side's so much worse. They can't necessarily give evidence for that. But there's always, you know, it's very, it's, it can be very frustrating when you're trying to have a conversation. Often because, and this will lead into our next question I have for you, but often people are starting from a completely different place, receiving information from two completely different worlds sometimes. It seems like I'm not even sure that, that people on, on a certain persuasion of the news on, on the far right, or if their only news that they get is maybe from media like Fox News or Newsmax or a number of different programs, that they may not even know that someone like Trump, that he's under indictment for 91 counts right now, which are very strong cases against him. And it's just all you know, no, it's somebody's just made it all up, whatever it is. So it's, it's an interesting psychological study to me too, based on even if a person sometimes has all the facts, that's not as important as what they feel. And you've just described today this idea of being a part of something, feeling a part of something, actually being involved with other like-minded people, and how hard it is to get away from that group. So with that in mind, you have really written in a powerful way, I think, and I've heard you just talk about it before on a couple of different podcasts now about this system when you're engaging people, individuals in your life, maybe people you love and know well who are involved in this Christian nationalism. And you have a system based on stoplights, the red, yellow, and green lights of sort of a triage approach, as you call it, for engaging individuals who are involved in this. I wonder if you might be able just to explain a little bit of what you mean by the red, yellow, and green lights and how it can be helpful in engaging with people whenever they are maybe overtaken by a Christian nationalism mindset.

Sure. Well, and it's— I don't know how incredibly systematic it is simply because these three categories can, can slide back and forth depending on any given day or any people's disposition. But one thing that's important to know is that I think that there are also leaders and followers at different levels all the way down to the grassroots when it comes to Christian nationalism. And so the rank and file are not necessarily as They don't have the same investment in power as the people, the leaders in the church who have aligned themselves with right-wing political operatives. But they ride on the coattails of the power of the people who are directly benefiting. So there's— it's not like you can lump all people who agree with Christian nationalism together and say that they equally benefit from it. Everybody equally benefits from the emotional charge of it, I think, but not everybody actually materially benefits in the same way. And in fact, some people end up voting against their own best self-interest because they've been, they've been lied to, basically. So, so there's already some variation just in terms of who makes up this, this large group of people. But I always say the first question to ask before you even get into my sort of triage of stoplights is, am I the right person to have a conversation about this with this person? Is this the right place, you know, and the right time? So the Thanksgiving dinner table may not be the time where you want to just accost Uncle Eddie with your political views. And you may not be the right person at all, because maybe somebody who has been in evangelical Christianity and sees the dangers of it might have a better chance of having a dialogue with a person than somebody who's already been branded as one of those evil liberals with horns and a tail. So right person, right place, right time is the first thing. And then a red light, you know, stop, do not go. A lot of psychologists said you can't reason with someone who's gone all the way down the rabbit hole conspiracy theories and so forth. And so if you feel like a conversation is going into a place where either you feel like you're— to continue the conversation, you are almost colluding with their point of view because you're trying to listen to them reasonably, or you're being subjected to micro or even macroaggressions, then you need to step away. But what do you do then? I think you channel your energy and and perhaps your political outrage into education and advocacy for social change. And psychologist Bandy X. Lee has written a lot about that factor. I do believe, though, that conversation is possible. I'm a therapist, and I want to say that talk can be valuable. And so if you perceive that the person might have some openness to thinking about what they have come to believe critically, um, then the most important thing is to recognize that relationship building comes first, that there needs to be some common ground between you and that person. And that could be because you work together or because you're in church together or because they're a member of your family. Um, maintaining and building relationship and finding common ground is really the first thing you need to do and not just be arguing with people. I say argumentation does not work, period, because it just raises people's defenses. But in this sort of yellow light region, you need to listen more than you talk. One of my students at one point said, God gave us two ears and one mouth for a reason. I love that. And make I statements, come from where you're coming from, but don't Universalize your truth as necessarily what everybody believes. Be modest. In other words, intellectual humility is a good thing. And then operate by empathy. Try to understand where they're coming from. Empathy isn't the same thing as agreement. I can try to step into your shoes and try to understand what it's like to be you with the pressures and the struggles that you face in your life. And that may help me to have a little more compassion for why you think what you think. Doesn't mean I have to agree with all of the things that you are saying that maybe are replicating things that you've heard from Trump or from a televangelist, but I can understand why it would be compelling for you. And then the green light, uh, kind of builds on that. It builds on respect and kindness. I mean, who would want to be condescended to by you thinking that you should heal them or correct them or reform them? Nobody would like that. And this wonderful person, Loretta Ross, who's a longtime feminist activist for reproductive rights, she's a MacArthur Fellow, and she's recently been talking about calling people in rather than calling them out. So So what we often see as a practice on the left is self-righteously calling out people who we think have said something offensive in a gathering and publicly humiliating them, rather than what Loretta Ross says— take them aside first, see if you can have a conversation about it, tell them how it impacted you, and don't just go for the jugular at the first sign of somebody saying or doing something that you think is is not correct. So, so those are the— but just remember that a green light can turn into a yellow light, and the yellow light can turn into a red light in a moment's notice, if you have inadvertently or deliberately raised their defenses. And so this is a matter for really being respectful and listening and trying to understand. One of the things I love about the psychoanalytic perspective is that in practice, it's about fostering curiosity about self and other. And if you can be curious about something as opposed to being instantly judgmental, you're probably going to come to understand it a lot sooner and a lot better. And then you have something that you can share back and forth.

Yeah. Well, you know, one thing that I, I think of as I hear you talk about this and the idea that we would actually make space to listen. I'm grateful to my time as a chaplain and in my clinical pastoral education for reorienting my idea of what it means to be a witness. Because so often that growing up, I always thought being a witness meant I have to go tell somebody something. But truly what it means to be a witness is, is to witness the life in front of you, to listen well, to companion with, and to try to understand. And so That's one thing that I really love about the way that you write, which it's such a deep look into the psychology of Christian nationalism. But you're also giving us some practical ways for how do we actually enter in and engage and maybe do some things to help people flourish and get out of some things that are very unhealthy. And so I just keep coming back to that word witness as I hear what you're talking about. If we can witness that life of another person, maybe be using those, those different colored lights to know when is the right time, when is the right place, am I even the right person to be a part of this right now. But you're giving us a lot of wisdom today, and, and so I'm very grateful for all the things that you're sharing. These are, these are beautiful ways for us to look at this, I think, for sure. I know our time is running short, and you have been so generous to give of your time today, which I really appreciate. I was just wondering if maybe in, in just a couple of minutes that we have left together today, do you have any stories of maybe times that you or somebody else has taken the time to engage a person like this? Maybe people who were on completely different ends of the spectrum, one believing one way and one believing another, where this kind of approach of taking time to listen, build relationships, and, and, and hear each other has actually made a real difference.

Well, making the difference, of course, is the bottom line, right? Does any of this do any good?

Yeah.

I'm a great believer in planting seeds. I don't think you're going to have instant results. It's not like, listen and be respectful and stir, and now the person is going to completely change their mind. But what I do believe from my own experience and that of others is that that if you've been painted as, as a progressive Christian, as I am, or a progressive political person, as I am, if you've been painted with horns and a tail, then if you can open up a conversation with somebody who's completely opposite from you, but they see you as, oh, that seems like a kind of a reasonable person, oh, they care about me, uh, then it might plant some seeds of of critical inquiry about what they believe. If I'm not a crazy person, then maybe they can think about some things over time. And I did have that experience very much so with one person in particular. I went to a rally for Doug Mastriano, who was running for governor, was running for governor, and his His whole agenda is Christian nationalist. So I was going around at this biker rally where people were gathered to be with him and looking for people who were wearing a cross or having a t-shirt with a, you know, Jesus is my savior, Trump is my president kinds of things, but some religious signifier that they had and talking to them and asking them, you know, I'm writing on a book about, and I did say I'm writing a book about the connection between patriotism and religion, and I'd like to know what you think. And many people just said, oh, it's a no-brainer, and they really didn't want to talk much more. But with one person, I had a long conversation, and we kind of hit on all of the major points she wanted to talk about. And it was clear to me she really wanted to be heard. Her grandchildren had written her off. And there was a severing in her family because of her conservative political and Christian beliefs. And at the end of the conversation, she recognized who I was because my husband also had been writing for the local newspaper, and she connected our names. And she said, 'Oh, you're her.' I was like, 'Yes,' because I had just given a first name. And, uh, she said, 'Well, I want you to tell your husband I don't believe in all of the things that you believe in, but he's a great writer. And I just appreciate the fact that you and I could have this conversation. Wow. So I felt like something could have shifted over time in her because of that, because I wasn't writing her off. I was genuinely curious to hear what she had to say. And that comes through also. You can't fake it. But maybe a closing thought is to get back to the idea of the witness. I love that term. And in biblical Greek, the word for witness is martus, which is the same word as martyr. And now I'm not saying that we sacrifice our life for a conversation, but I do think that there's a cost to trying to quell our own impulses to want to change somebody or to fix somebody or to rescue somebody. That there's a martyrdom in withholding your zeal and really opening up to listen to what the other person has to say. Because a witness is someone who stands alongside that person and can see what is happening. And I think that companioning is costly but so important because so much of what we're doing now is screaming across the divide, and that is not going to change anything.

Yeah, and as you already stated so well, being argumentative just does not work. Uh, when, when we're, when we're yelling at each other across the aisle, sometimes it feels like the only thing we can do, but it doesn't, but it doesn't work. And so I, I really appreciate today you just making the time, uh, to go a little deeper in, in things that you've written about in this wonderful book. Uh, I want to let all of our listeners know, um, you, you won't ever go wrong if you, if you pick up a book or an article by Pamela Cooper White. It's always something that you will benefit from, and I certainly have in my life. And I want to thank you so much for taking some time to talk about your book, The Psychology of Christian Nationalism. I think it's a very important book, and I think it's deep and practical at the same time. So thank you so much for making some time. We've tried to connect on this for a while, and I'm just so grateful to you And as I say to my guests every week, I'm so happy to get to say it to you this week. Pamela Cooper White, thank you for being one of the voices in my head this week.

Oh, thank you so much, Rick.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, follow my blog, and even schedule me for a concert or speaking engagement. Better yet, even a book signing in your neighborhood. You can find all that and more at rickleejames.com. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, the more visible this podcast will be online. And now for the benediction. May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. God bless you, and thank you for listening to Voices in My Head.