Episode 542 - Nancy French

Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I'm your host, Rick Lee James, and I'm so glad that you are here with us this week. I know that this is going to be a wonderful episode, and I just want to say at the beginning today how grateful I am to all of you for being here today and for week after week listening in on conversations, uh, with literally the voices in my head, the people that inspire me, the, the people that really help me in my life. And today is, is no exception to that. I'm just meeting Nancy French for the first time today on this Zoom call, although I followed her online for quite some time. And I recently read her new book, which I'm going to share a little bit about before we have our conversation today. The book is called Ghosted: An American Story. And it releases on April 16th of this year. And she is a 5-time New York Times bestselling author, and she takes us in this book on a transformative journey from the coal mining foothills of Appalachia to the influential halls of the White House. Nancy's life weaves through hardship, faith, and betrayal amidst the chaotic climate of political change. From supporting her husband David French through war to becoming a sought-after ghostwriter, Nancy's path takes an unexpected turn when she refuses to endorse an unsuitable president leading to isolation, threats, and the discovery of her own voice. Today, Nancy is here to help us explore her American narrative of transformation, resilience, and the enduring pursuit of love in Ghosted. Nancy French, welcome to Voices in My Head. I'm so glad to have you here today.

Thank you so much for reading my book and for inviting me on your podcast. This is so fun.

Well, I am really glad that I had a chance to read it, and it was one of those books that I found very hard to put down. And you're story is compelling. I had followed you online, uh, for quite a while now. Just, I've been inspired by you and your husband both, just kind of at a distance, only knowing really a little bit of your story. And then when I got to dive in this week, there was so much I didn't know and so much that, um, honestly, it was, it was heartbreaking, it was poignant, it was funny. I mean, there was so much in the book, uh, to take away. And I just, I truly am inspired by your story. So thank you so much for being here and sharing about it today.

Oh, thank you so much for being interested. This is so fun to finally have the book out into the world and people actually be reading it. It's invigorating.

Well, I hope that it'll once again be a bestseller for you. I think it will. It's really something special. The title is Ghosted, and I know as I read through it, I wanted to say it has a double meaning, but it may even have more than that because there's so much that you refer to not only as a ghostwriter yourself, but I love how at one point you talk about being holy ghosted or something like that towards the end of the book. I wonder if you could just tell our listeners a little bit about the significance of the title of the book for you, Ghosted.

So, yeah, so I'm a 3-time college dropout, so I've never graduated from anything. I have no credentials. But about several years ago, I became a ghostwriter. So most people don't realize that almost every celebrity memoir is written by someone like me, someone who's just unknown and in car line at 3 o'clock and then at 5 o'clock still writing about, you know, celebrities. And so I have been a celebrity ghostwriter for a long time. I've written for GOP politicians. I've written for Hollywood type people. And so I've been a ghostwriter. But the topic of the book is more about when you're ghosted, when people ignore you or people ostracize you from their tribe. And so I feel like I've been ghosted from tribes that should have supported me and loved me because I've been in certain tribes my whole life. But then when I made some certain decisions, we became about as popular as head lice amongst evangelicals, conservatives. And we haven't changed. I've still— I'm still the same person that, that I've always been. But anyway, I feel like I've been ostracized from various tribes.. And I think that this feeling of homelessness, politically, socially, spiritually, geographically even, is something that a lot of people feel right now as Americans. And so I just sort of wanted to give credence to the fact that people are feeling this discomfort. Yeah.

Well, and I so appreciate that because I really feel like it— this book might be a real way of helping some people feel a little less alone. And that's a really wonderful thing to be able to share and put out into the world, I think. Let's, let's dive in. Kind of where the book starts, um, in the first chapters with your background, kind of growing up in poverty in the foothills of, of the Appalachian Mountains. And which may come as a surprise to many of our listeners, but some of your extended family you write about were members of the Ku Klux Klan. Some of them were even featured on wanted posters. And I wonder if you could maybe just like share some of your experience of growing up in this environment and some of the things it taught you, because I, I think that a lot of people would be surprised by your background story, right?

Well, I have a wonderful family, and, um, we're from Tennessee. My, um, father and his family comes from Monteagle Mountain, which is in the foothills of the Appalachians. Um, lots of coal. My grandfather was a coal miner, amongst other things. My dad, you know, my dad was a coal miner, but only like as a kid, you know. They didn't have like child labor laws that they followed, so like he worked in the coal mine when he was in elementary school, and just a very difficult life. And they was plagued with violence and just, just lots of turmoil. So when I would go to the mountain, I would see that sort of life. And I would encounter my relatives who were just, you know, I looked just like them. They have Cherokee Indian in them. And so I have dark hair, and they have dark hair, and my face resembles their face. And I just loved being with them, but it was so different from my actual life because my dad, when he was 15, lied about his birthday and name and identity and joined the Marines. So he joined the Marines, did a 3-year stint, and then came back and went back to high school. Like, he was so young, he never graduated from high school. He got his GED, um, and he later got his, uh, college degree in his 50s. But anyway, so Dad and my mom moved off the mountain, so is it was like they had the mountain life, but they didn't want me to have the mountain life. So I sort of had this dual thing where I was pantyhose 3 times a week for church in Kentucky, no cussing, chewing, or, you know, whatever, you know, like I was very, very, uh, Christian and churchgoing. And then the people on the mountain who were also lovely and amazing just had very different lives. So I got to see both of those.

Wow, wow, that's amazing. Well, and, and you share in the book, and I do want to let everybody know in listening, there are some topics that I don't know if, if maybe kids are listening, they, they might want to wait and listen to this later because some of the things in your book that, that you talk about are pretty difficult. And, and this next part is, is one of those things. You were a deeply devoted person of faith until something traumatic happened with you when, when a young preacher you met at Vacation Bible School, uh, he took advantage of you and, and sexually abused you and, and made you feel like it was your fault. And, um, first, I just, I want to say how sorry I am that that happened to you. And, and I know that doesn't make it any better, but, but my heart hurt when I, when I would read things like that. And, um, and, and I was, I guess, both kind of heartbroken and infuriated all at the same time when I read that, as one who is a minister myself. And I wonder if you would mind just discussing a little bit of, of this incident, because I know it had a great bearing on your faith and, and, and the way that kind of life changed for you at that time.

Yeah, you know, I— it was— it wasn't like I met the guy at Vacation Bible School. He was a part of my church community. His dad was an elder at the church. He had his own congregation. Um, this is a continuing saga. I even— like this— so this guy abused me when I was probably about 12. Um, he's 10 years older than I am, I think maybe 11. Um, so it was like it— I have always felt very tenderly towards God. I just, I don't know why. I just, I know some people don't. I do. And I've always loved church. I loved the Vacation Bible School cookies that you could put on your pinky and make rings out of. I loved the Kool-Aid. I loved the balloons. I loved sitting in the— we had this little amen pew where all the kids would sit. We had a church by Kentucky Lake. Um, I mean, like, I just loved it. It was my entire life. And then when this guy, this preacher, abused me, it sort of pushed me to the outskirts of my church community because I wasn't really allowed— like, it was just awkward and weird, and I didn't know how to process it. And I was a kid, and I didn't know anything about bodily autonomy or whatever, you know. Like, we were taught to obey our elders, and, uh, that was severely reinforced in the rural South. Um, so yeah, so this abused me. It sort of put me on the outskirts of my community. I became, over the course of several years, uh, just disillusioned by Christianity. I thought I rejected Christianity, but really I was just having a reaction to all of this abuse. So I started painting my fingernails black and smoking clove cigarettes and sitting on the edge of campus in college, you know, drinking and getting in trouble. And, you know, so anyway, it set me on a bad path.

Yeah.

But, um, you know, I'm— in a way, I'm still on that path, you know, like I'm not It's like once that happens, it's like your path is different. And so I'm just on a different path than everyone else. But I mean, so many people are abused. This is not uncommon. And I'm very thankful to be connected to other people who've been affected in this way because I find that community very empowering. Yeah.

Well, and it's, and it's, um, I'm grateful that you write about it because I know that there are probably many people who have had your experience who maybe don't have another voice to listen to or to hear or anyone who feels like they're heard. And yet at the same time, I know that must make it— it's a heavy burden sometimes when you are helping others walk through experiences you've been through, too, even though it's, I think, also an amazing thing that only God could do to take your pain and your hurt to actually make it something that brings help to other people, you know, and that, that, to me, is the evidence of resurrection as much as anything that we could find life from these deep, dark areas. But I first just want to thank you for your willingness to talk about it for for the way it may help other people. But also in the book, you, you kind of write about the way that this incident— and you just told us it changed you a little bit, your relationship to faith and your relationship to God— it just puts you on a different path. I loved how you explain it that way. And after several unhealthy relationships, you met your husband David, who we just said hi to a few moments ago, um, who helped restore your faith and your mental well-being. And I, I just wonder if you could tell us a little bit sort of about how meeting him, you know, in this kind of friendly phone call you had with him and then the wedding in France, you know, not, not too long later, just could you tell us a little bit about kind of how the two of you crossed paths and how he was instrumental in kind of again taking you on a different journey?

Right. So y'all know David French. Y'all probably read some of his columns in The New York Times or The Dispatch. Amazing guy. So he was an amazing guy 28 years ago. We just had our 28th anniversary this week.

Congrats.

Um, so, so 28 years ago we met. Well, the way that it all happened was our relationship was based on deception and lies, and this is 100% an accurate description. So I, my, I was a high school senior. My parents were forcing me to go to this college in Nashville called David Lipscomb University, and I did not want to go. It was one of the only pre-approved Church of Christ denomination colleges. I went to this small, uh, sect of Christianity, and there were only a few that you could go to, um, because we were taught that everyone else was going to hell. So there was no way I was going to go to college with a bunch of y'all heathens. So, um, my parents were going to make me go to, uh, Lipscomb, and I was a jerk about it. So the admissions people would call and they would have some sort of variation on, oh my gosh, are you so excited you get to go to Lipscomb? And I would always make up crap. I would say, oh well, I'm not excited because I want to go into veterinarian school and you can't get into a good veterinary school from Lipscomb. Or medical school from Lipscomb, or law school from Lipscomb. Well, that last one got me because the guy who had called me was like, oh, well, my friend David French is at Harvard Law School. Is that good enough for you? He just graduated from Lipscomb last year. And I was like, oh, well, Harvard was one of the places I was considering. Now, mind you, not only did I not want to go to law school, I knew no one who was a lawyer, and of course I couldn't even spell Harvard, and we didn't have like a computer. Like, I didn't know anything about this. So like, I had to go to the public library because David French was going to call me in a week. So I could read about Harvard Law School so I would not sound like a complete buffoon because I'd lied about it. So a week passed. GQ had this amazing article about Harvard. And when he called, I sounded sort of like I knew what I was talking about. But he was engaged to someone else. He was, you know, 6 years older than me. We never met, you know, like it was like just— it was like a 1-hour conversation. But oh my gosh, I thought this guy is the most fascinating person I've ever met in my life. I could talk to him forever and I would never get sick of him. He's just so fascinating. But then the conversation ended. Years passed. I do go to this college that I did not appreciate as much as I should have, probably. And one day after he graduated from Harvard, we met on the sidewalk and I said, are you David French? And he said, yes. And I was like, I came to the school because of you and I hate it as much as I thought. So I was so like, acrimonious and weirdly mean to him. But he was like, okay, great, do you want to go out? So we talked on the sidewalk for 4 hours that day. And again, on that day, I missed my class. And I thought to myself, I could be with him forever and never get tired of him. He's so fascinating. So 28 years later, I'm happy to report that I was correct in my assessment. Everybody was— so David and I dated, I think on the second date, I decided I wanted to marry him. We were We were married, I think, within 3 months, and we got married and he proposed without a ring by a sewage pipe. I'm not sure why. And I was like, sure, but let's get married in France and let's live in New York with a view of the Empire State Building. It was like I was just so criminally unsophisticated. I didn't know, like, how to act. So, like, I thought, well, this person went to Harvard Law School, so therefore he must be used to people who go to France. Of course, you know, I'd never been to France or, you know, traveled like that. So, so I was like, yeah, we have to get married in France. And he was like, okay. And I was like, okay. So like we did all this stuff just because I didn't know how to interact like a normal human being when, when I wasn't trying to impress somebody with how fancy or sophisticated I was. But over the past 28 years, I don't have to have that pretense and y'all can know that I'm not fancy or sophisticated.

Well, I, I, I love hearing, uh, about about your story, and, and there's obviously a lot more in the book about that. But when you first got married, there is a story that you have shared a number of times, and I was so grateful that you, you wrote it down in the way you did in the book, about some phone calls that you began receiving, which— it's, it's a great story now, and it's very funny, but I'm sure at the time it must have been anything but humorous to you when you started getting phone calls for your husband from all these different women, and they were, they were very sensual. And, and I, I know was, was, uh, it's quite a story. I wonder, could you share a little bit about that with our listeners today? Because to me, it is one of the all-time great stories that I have ever heard, and about like a newly married couple and just how things could have gone so wrong, but thank God didn't.

Yes. So, and this actually is going to be coming out, um, I recorded this story for The Moth, um, and it will be coming out in April on NPR. So I will not give away the punchline, but let me tell you about what happened. So I married this complete stranger, David French. My mother called him the rank stranger. She goes, I don't know why you would marry this rank stranger. People had interventions for us. David's friends invited us to his apartment and they cried as they begged me to finish college. And they were right, y'all. So I was dropping out of college, moving to New York, and marrying someone that I just met. So these people were not completely wrong. But I still put them on a skillet in my story when I tell it because they are— they're wonderful people. We're still all friends now. But, but so everybody was upset with us. People at my church even wrote me letters. The deacon at my church tried to stop me from getting married. I mean, like, it was insane how people were so— well, it was understandable how people were so opposed to this because it seemed like a slow-motion train wreck. So I get married in France to David French. We move to New York City. We live in Gramercy Park. As promised, I have a view of the Empire State Building if you crawl out into the fire escape and sort of tilt and use your imagination. But then after about 2 weeks, I start getting phone calls from women asking for David, and he was supposed to be at work. But over and over and over, women would call, different women. Sexy voice, sultry voice. And they would ask to speak to David and they'd say, well, I just saw him last night. And I'd say, what do you mean you saw him last night? Where'd you see him? Soho at a club when he works at Midtown at a law firm, you know, it was like so confusing. So after this whirlwind romance with David French, we moved to New York and for about 3 weeks, women called me asking for him. And I had this crisis where I thought I'd made the worst decision of my life by getting married. And I could not go back home because I defied everybody. But the way that the story resolves is something that you really cannot predict. It's insane.

Yeah, it's a great story. So we won't spoil it today, but I really hope people will read the book. And I can't wait to hear the moth. You write about that in the book as well. So whenever you got to share that, that's a really neat opportunity. I'm glad you got to do that.

I can't believe I got to share at the Moth. That was like one of the biggest moments of my life. It was amazing.

Well, and, and that must have been— I, I'm— I was kind of nervous for you even as, as I was reading through about, you know, that not, not having any notes and kind of, you know, telling it off the cuff. And, but yeah, that's, that's a wonderful thing. So I can't wait for everybody to be able to hear that too whenever it comes out. So, um, well, I, you know, I wondered where to go next, and I want to make the most of our time. Um, I, I just quickly, I, I wonder if— I know some time went by in your marriage, and your husband did something that I find to be incredibly brave and courageous and went off to war when he didn't have to. I think it was, as I've heard him tell it before in stories that he's written and maybe even some podcasts where he's told the story, you know, he— I think he, I think he really wrestled with the decision of what he should do. And while you were separated for some time, could you tell us just a little bit about um, not, not maritally separated. I apologize, I'm tired and it's not coming out right this morning. But you had to be separated because he went off to war, and he took his Harvard Law degree and put it to good use working for the sake of others. And I wonder if you could just tell us a little bit about that time of your life when you couldn't be together and, and kind of the impact that it had on you and at that time in your marriage and in your life.

Yeah, so at the time I was a celebrity ghostwriter Um, and I was working with Ann Romney on her book. That one was never published because of various things, but, um, but she does, she does have an amazing book that she published that y'all should read. But I was with Ann, and I was talking to Ann a great deal about what it was like for her to date Mitt while Mitt was sent to his Mormon mission in France. And during that time period, the Army was having a recruitment shortfall, and David was sort of like a talking head less so than he is now, obviously. And he thought that America was— he had said something like, America is losing its resolve to fight an unpopular war. And then he was immediately convicted and thought, no, I've lost my resolve because there's nothing wrong with me. Now, he was old. I can't remember how old he was. He was too old to join the Army, but they did an extension on the age for— and so that he could, during this very small amount of time, join the Army. So one day I come home from having the kids at the park and I see in his face he was ready to join. He was going to join the Army like he had a newspaper in his hand. There was a newspaper article about— I think it was in the New York Times about a guy who had just come back from the war and his wife and two kids met him at the airport and he was injured. And David was like, this guy doesn't love his wife less. Well, he loves his wife just as much as I love you. And adults need to be over there. And I'm an adult and I have this Harvard Law degree and I want to join the Army. Army. And I tell the story in the book, uh, you know, because it might sound like this was a calloused decision that he made, devil-may-care, this is what I'm going to do. But the way that it unfolded, it— God made it very obvious that this was the right next step, even though it was terrifying. Um, I thought when he would join the Army that he'd go to the Green Zone. You know, he's, he's an attorney, but, uh, the Army had decided at that point, during this point in the surge, that the terrorists would be processed at the point of capture. And so he was a part of the capturing terrorist, uh, regime, because like once they were gotten, he would have to interview them and stuff. So he had to go on these missions. So anyway, I was a little upset about that, and it was a terrible year, and his unit suffered more casualties than anyone else that year. It was, you know, he saw genocide, he saw horrible things. And he came back and he was— he's never been the same. He's not the man I married. Yeah. Um, so it's, you know, it's just— it's the most seminal decision, probably. You know, we've had a lot of crazy decisions, but this was— this was— crazy is not the right word. It was the right decision. It was very difficult. And I think Beth Moore said something like, I've been married to like 6 men, they're just the same guy. Um, that's, that's how I feel about David. He, he is— he is not the person I married, but he's better than the person I married. But it It's been difficult to, you know, it's been a difficult path.

Yeah. Well, and then the challenge for you while he was away too, and I know there was a lot that, that you went through in that time, and we won't have time to cover it all today. But I was inspired by the story. And it's not because it— I mean, honestly, I'm almost a pacifist in my life. And I, and if I was to go off to war, I would be the chaplain, you know, I would be there with the— and, and I feel like in some ways, him going in, even with with his law degree. In some ways, it really was an act of courage and bravery in a way that most people don't think about too, you know, when we think about the way that he was there to serve people in a way that not everybody thinks of when they go in the military. And I know that must have been tough on both of you, and you write about it so well in the book, so I won't give tons of that away. But just again, another way that I admire both of you and the sacrifices that you were willing to make. It's just, it's a very powerful part of the book to read for sure.

And thank you so much. Well, Rick Lee James, let me tell you this. I'm sick of people being mean to David French. I do not get it. Like, I log on to Twitter. The number of people who hate him with a hot, burning passion is so shocking to me. He's the best. Like, he's— he has no pride. Like, I was with him. Like, the man loves the Memphis Grizzlies. He was meeting with a senator and he had one of those beanie hats with like a sock like poofy thing at the top, and it said Grizzlies on it. And I was like, you're meeting senators. And he was like, I gotta represent, man. Um, you know, like, he, he has no gall, he has no pride. He is what he is. He serves people. He joined the Army. I mean, all these people who criticize him— I have a very, uh, I think, well-curated social media presence where I do not clap back at anyone typically. I say this, I'm reining myself in, but I, I just don't get it. David's the best. I've been married to him for 28 years. I know him better than anyone, and I know that I'm biased because of that. But normally when you know someone for 28 years, you're like, oh yeah, you've got a point here or there. He's the best. I'm so sick of everyone just giving him such, um, hockey sticks over his actually good decisions and his good takes. So I probably shouldn't go on a rant like this, but y'all need to know it.

Yeah, well, no, no, I, I, I, I agree with you, and I, I hate that. I hate that honestly both of you have, um, have received such vitriol from people, which, which we'll get into that a little bit again in a minute. But your husband, um, and I've only met you today for the first time where we're actually talking, but your husband and you both, I, I feel like, exhibit such an amazing amount of grace, uh, in the social media world, um, which is, which is often where I follow you, um, and one when I hear especially your husband, he's a lot more on podcasts and things where I hear him, and he, he reminds me of, um, this may be a terrible comparison, but his voice when he speaks, he almost reminds me of a Mr. Rogers type person, when like with that kind of kindness that comes across. And I'm the one who, who curates the @MrRogersSay Twitter site, so I just put out Mr. Rogers quotes every day. So I love Fred Rogers, but his kindness really comes across, I guess. And that's one of the, the best things I could say. And I would say that about you as well. I really feel like there is a Christlike kindness that comes across in those places. And speaking of that, I, I love— you, you mentioned Ann Romney a few minutes ago, and, and I, I know— I hope this isn't too weird of a left turn into what we're talking about, but it's a really interesting part, um, of the book because, uh, when you became, uh, good friends with Mitt Romney and his wife both, and as you said, you, you wrote a memoir for her, which that one didn't get released, but it opened you up to some, some different, uh, other writing opportunities. And, um, that led you to writing for Bristol Palin, which I didn't know a lot about Bristol Palin until I read in your account of her life in this book. And I know, again, that's a person that probably at one point I, I judged her story, you know, just based on different things. You had a real way of— the way that you wrote about her really humanizing the story, and I, I really appreciated that, the way that You know, she, she actually kind of, uh, comes across in this, in the story very in a sympathetic way that I don't think a lot of people would give her, um, would give her that angle very much. But you also write about things like, um, hanging out in that world of people that were connected with people like Fox News and, and Steve Bannon and different ones. And I, if, if memory serves, I apologize because I read the book quickly over the weekend, but Did it say something about Steve Bannon made breakfast for you guys while you were writing the book or something like that? Or—

that is completely false. I made breakfast for you.

Made breakfast? Okay, I apologize.

Weeks. I, I— this is not my proudest moment, but I— yeah, I was living with the Palins in Wasilla writing. I did like 3 different Palin books, and I was living with them when Steve Bannon shows up. And, uh, in my place where I'm sleeping and I'm in my pajamas, and I look up and it's Steve Bannon, and I'm like, hey, do you want some bagels? And for some reason I started making a breakfast every day that they were there, his crew. But yeah, I got to see a lot. Yeah.

Well, and I mention all that because that really was the world that you were a part of for a while in that way. And which is, which is why when, when the political environment sort of dramatically shifted in your life, I think that's part of why there was maybe such shock in the midst of it. Here you were, you and David, both very prominent Christians, people who not only stood for, you know, what you felt like was right in your political views, and you had strong opinions about it, and you were writing for people in that world, but I really feel like your faith was first, and it was the thing that was guiding you in the midst of all that. But then this political environment shifted dramatically, uh, in the last couple of decades, and your support for some conservative leaders came to a head during the 2016 presidential campaign, really, when, when you and David both stood your ground and chose not to support a man who was for president, as you write about. And at that moment, or I guess really at what moment did you kind of know that you could not support Donald Trump and kind of set on this path which caused you and David still, I'm sure, a lot of, a lot of difficulties along the way? Can you kind of describe that moment where you felt like we've, we've got to make a choice here, you know, for the sake of our own soul, I guess?

Well, you may be giving me too much credit. You said, you know, I made all these decisions, my faith was first. I'm not sure that it was. I think the number one thing that was going through my mind was I loved owning the libs. I loved to make sarcastic jokes. I was rhetorically pugilistic. So like, I would go to Fox News and I would sit off, off outside the camera range, and I would help my clients say mean things. Like, I loved, you know, making people drink liberal tears. That was my spiritual gift, not listed in 1 Corinthians. And I, for some reason— I, I might be alone in this. I'm— this is a confession. This is— this does not reflect well on me, but like, I thought, I thought it was fine. I thought it was fine, you know. Like, do you ever— I grew up listening to like Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill go at it. You remember how Ronald Reagan would make fun of Tip O'Neill being fat and calling him Pac-Man and And, you know, they would just criticize each other before 6 o'clock, and after 6 o'clock they were friends and they would have a drink. And when Reagan was shot, Tip O'Neill was there reading the 23rd Psalm with him in his hospital room. And for some reason, I thought the political acrimony that had furrowed into our brows was okay, that we were saying all of this like wink wink, you know, like, oh, well, we're just— this is what politics is. It's not beanbag, you know. This is, this is what we do. And then the moment that I had this like throw up in my mouth feeling was I was at church and I was scrolling through Twitter as one does. Sorry, God. Sorry, God. And I saw that Donald Trump was making fun of John McCain being a prisoner of war. And I was like, what on earth?

I—

that's not calling somebody Pac-Man. That's like, that's evil to make someone, you know, who was so courageous and to It's calling evil good and good evil. So I was at church and I was getting coffee and I was like, oh my gosh, y'all are not going to believe this. And I explained it and people laughed and I was like, wait, what? Because the people that I was with, the wonderful people at my church, they supported the troops.

Hmm.

They were patriotic people. And yet when he was making fun of John McCain being a prisoner of war, they laughed. And I thought, I have been a political ghostwriter for years. I could tell you exactly what to write. On 50 million different topics, including the military. And now I have no idea what's happening because my clients wanted me to write about the insult. So like, I had all of these clients that were conservatives, and they were like, oh my gosh, did you see he owned McCain? And I was like, yes, I did see that. Should we condemn this? You know, like, what do you mean? What do you mean he owned him? What? And so my clients were like demanding that I write stuff, but I I didn't feel that it would be the right thing for me to do, to use my God-given talents to mock a prisoner of war. So I just decided I'm not doing that. So anyway, it made me, uh, unemployable, but that's what I did. Yeah, well, but it was my fault though. I, you know, like, that's the thing. I, I was in the stream. I was the one who had owned this part of you know, owning the libs and making jokes. And I was— and I would do things that were uncharitable. Like, I would say, oh, there's this nutcase in Topeka who's a liberal who did this, and that's how liberals are, you know. And so, like, that's not true, because you could say that about Christian people, you could say that about conservative people. But that's what I would do, and that was my MO. And so when I decided not to lie about my liberal neighbor, not to bear false witness against my liberal neighbor, which is what I was doing, I was unemployable.

Wow. I, I loved how you— I mean, you stated again, but you do say that in the book too, that when you, when you decided not to lie any longer about your liberal neighbor, and that encapsulates so much, and, and it, it does happen, um, to all of us. We're probably all guilty at some point of, you know, um, making a more simple caricature of people that are different from us or people that we disagree with. Um, Um, but I love the way that you described that you decided not to bear false witness against them anymore. And, and I don't think that we often stop and take time to think about, wow, that's what we're doing, we're breaking a commandment right now.

Yeah. And it's like a seriously significant spiritual decision.

Yeah.

Because once I made that decision, it was like, oh, I can't write that, I can't write that, it's not really fair to write that, you know.

Yeah. Well, and you know, I just was thinking about, as you were talking about that too, with someone like Mitt Romney, for instance, who is a friend of yours. And I don't know, I wasn't really like super engaged in anything politically thinking probably back when he was running for president that much, to be honest. I was a little younger. I just didn't pay attention to the news that much. I don't remember feeling strongly one way or the other, but when he was the sole person in his party, it seemed like like, um, to stand up even at the impeachment hearings and, and to make that difficult choice. Um, he seems like a man to me, for, for all of us who are Christians who want to say, you know, oh, we're, we're superior in some way to, uh, to the, the Mormon people in, in our midst or whatever. To me, it seemed like he was the picture of integrity, and, and honestly, it was a, it was a Christlike picture to me whenever I would see him standing up in such a way, you know, not willing to bear false witness in that way. So whatever I didn't know or knew about him before, to me, that was a moment where I felt like, wow, this man, this man is, is standing on, on a deep faith right now, you know?

Right. And he was the only one. It's so sobering, isn't it? Sobering and strange. Yeah. His little hands were shaking, you know, and this is a man man of deep integrity, you know, and he, he's such a noob, you know, like a noble man. And he, he was willing to take that. And when I saw him stand up and his hands were shaking and he was alone, that's when I decided that I was not going to write for any more GOP politicians. Because there's just— you've got one guy, he'll stand up, you know, whatever. I'm not, I'm not wasting one more second on up.

Yeah, it's a, it's a powerful example, and, and I'm grateful for that. And well, and then, and then your family as well. You, your book actually opens describing this moment, um, which I think all of us, our heads would just spin if this would happen. But you describe when an FBI agent contacted you about your family being a possible target of an attack by conservative extremists. Um, could you walk us just through a little bit of what that experience was like? Because it really is because I think many of us just couldn't imagine it.

Yeah. Do you guys remember Cesar Sayoc? I think that's how you say his name. He was the Florida guy, MAGA guy who lived in a van, probably down by the river. And he was sending pipe bombs to all these famous liberals, except the pipe— he was incompetent pipe bomb builder, thankfully. And so like Robert De Niro and Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden and the Obamas, and for some reason we were on that list because Sesame Street is like, one of these things is not like the other. We, you know, anyway, we were on that list. And so one day I came home and there was a message from the FBI taped to my mailbox saying, call me at your earliest convenience. And when they came over, they were like, uh, your name is on this list. You, we are trying to intercept all packages to your house, but they might come through. This is what the pipe bomb packages look like. You have to tell your neighbor. And I live in Franklin, Tennessee, and my neighbors are super— like 85% of them are Republicans in my neighborhood. And so I had to go to my neighbors and say, so, hi, it's nice to meet you. We're not actually super liberal, but we're on this, you know, if you get a package anyway, shut down our neighborhood like 3 times because the people in the neighborhood, of course, they would get a random package. It'd be like a Yankees poster to a guy 3 houses down and they'd call the bomb squad. So yeah, that was fun. That was just one of the many things that we— I mean, white nationalists have targeted us. We've just— we have an adopted daughter, our youngest is from Ethiopia, and so that caused a whole thing. So yeah, we've, we've been through it.

And I think there was a passage in your book, again speaking of your daughter, that, uh, if, if my if I'm recalling correctly, someone had either posted a picture of your daughter's face next to Trump, like pushing her into a gas chamber or something like that.

Yeah.

I mean, they were just, yeah, just horrible pictures and videos and things of you. And I'm amazed, honestly, that either of you can speak with any grace at all in the way that you have because of so many attacks. And when I'm, when I say attacks, I don't mean just like somebody said something bad about you on on Twitter or something. Like, things like that are a whole other level of just someone that's depraved, I think. And, and the way that you've been able to come this far, and I, I feel like grow, uh, in, in a way that puts a lot of us to shame, again, I'm grateful to see. It comes through so well in your book. And then, um, you became someone who spoke out, and I know we're running low on time, so I want to be conscious of that today, but You became someone who used your own pain and your own past, um, to write about, um, your own experience of being abused. And then you became a researcher, um, researching— I always want to pronounce this camp incorrectly, but I believe it's Canicook. Is that how you pronounce it?

Camp? That's right, Branson, Missouri.

Okay, in Branson, Missouri, which was a very prominent— I guess still is a very prominent Christian camp. Um, and your own experience of being abused led to, to advocate not only for yourself but for others who have been abused, and particularly as it relates to this camp. And what amazed me is you wrote about it in the book, was you received a lot of criticism for— from Christians for uncovering the abuse that was taking place against children. And I, I just want to read one part from your book for our listeners because this is powerful. You said to those who were critical of you, said, my response was always the same. There's no statute of limitations on truth or for individual and institutional accountability. Um, nobody resigned as the failure to stop a decade of abuse. No disciplinary action was taken against any of the super predators, supervisors, and Joe White is still the head of the camp today. They still used NDAs against victims and refused to acknowledge their role in allowing this abuse to occur. I was correcting the false narrative which has circulated about Kanakuk for more than a decade because I wanted parents to have access to material facts before they sent their kids to worship in the same place where other children were raped. I was not attacking the church, I was protecting the children. I like to believe Jesus would be okay with that, even if individual Christians shockingly were What? Um, I'm, I'm sorry to get emotional when I read that. Um, no, I'm not sorry. Um, because we should be emotional about it. Any of us, um, who, who love people, who love God, who love others, um, we should be shocked by that. And, and the fact that anyone would say no, we need to protect ourselves rather than protect children, um, I, I just just, again, I don't feel like there's a question here as much as I just want to say thank you for this work that you do. I feel like it's so important. I, I have a, I have a son myself, and, um, to think that someone would take advantage of, of innocent children in that way, um, thank you for the way you have defended and helped them. Um, I, I don't know if it, it means, uh, much at all to anyone else listening, and I'm sure it will, but for me it means the world. And I know that you have sacrificed a lot to do that, um, so I, I really appreciate it. And, um, again, you have a powerful way of writing about it, uh, so just thank you. That's— I guess that's, that's mainly what I wanted to say.

Jesus, well, thank you for caring about it.

Yeah, Jesus does care deeply. Um, I, I take it very seriously when Christ says we must become like children to enter the kingdom of heaven. And I think that's a powerful place, um, maybe for us to start closing down the conversation today. Maybe all of this, even the not bearing false witness against our neighbor and people around us— there's so much more in your book, um, but I feel like in some ways your book is about, uh, helping us learn to grow young again. You know, Rich Mullins had that great song called Growing Young, you know, about as we become who we really were made to be again. It's not that get older, it's that Christ makes us young. And in some ways, when I read your story, I feel like in many ways, um, it is part of this journey of, of God helping us to see what it looks like for a person to grow young again.

And, and so, right, and when you make mistakes, how you can just— you could change. You can be honest about it. I think that's— I think in this acrimonious culture where everybody is so mad at each other all the time, it's like it's possible to just sort like, stop. Yeah. Like, you can just stop it and start loving people. That's what I'm trying to do. I do it so, uh, you know, I have fits and stops and starts, and I don't do it well. But it's really liberating when you don't have to, like, haul an entire political party on your back.

Yeah.

And try to defend it.

Yeah. And you know what, some ways it's, it's so liberating to be politically homeless because we were were supposed to be separate anyway. You know, God had called us into something that was so much deeper and richer and fuller with a king who loves us so much better than earthly kings ever could. You know?

Yeah, it's such a sacred place. It's so uncomfortable and so sacred. So yeah, so I've sort of— my book is sort of me reaching my hand out to all of you guys out there who feel politically, spiritually, culturally homeless. And I want to say, hey, I'm here too. Let's hang out.

Yeah.

Hang out with me, guys.

It's so lonely. Well, your book is wonderful. And I want to— again, if all the technology works the way it's supposed to, when listeners who are listening today in the podcast note, they should just be able to go to the notes and click on a link and get right to all of your links today. So hopefully that'll be an easy thing for them to find. But I wonder, just as a last question in closing today, What do you hope readers will most take away from your new book, Ghosted?

So I am not exactly sure the answer to this question, but that when I talk to people who have read it, it is interesting how they have a reaction toward my description of God. And I feel like I've— the way that I've interwoven God and the spiritual world throughout the book, it is interesting and different than I think maybe people talk about about it. I am not the type of person who's going to show up at church and do a Sunday school lesson and teach you anything about theology, um, but I feel very tenderly towards God, and I wanted to talk about the ways that I have noticed him manifesting in my life in ways that are really confusing and untidy and perplexing and baffling and horrifying and invigorating and wonderful and terrible. Um, so I just used it all, uh, and I didn't try to make sense of it theologically. So like, I had one, uh, PCA person read it and they were like, this does not reflect well on your theology. And I was like, I don't care. Um, and then I had other people read it and they say, this really reflects well in your theology. So I don't know where you're gonna come out on this. You'll probably read it and think this person should not go to our Sunday school class, which is true. But, um, anyway, I just grapple with God in a way, and I want people to grapple with God and to, uh, you know, to— in, in, in the real untidy way that God demands.

Yeah. Well, I, I think mission accomplished. And, uh, you know, the, the chaplain in me, uh, because I've been doing this chaplaincy work in hospitals, um, it's really taught me never to judge another person's God story for sure, but to actually be open to listen. Sometimes, um, as much as I love the church, and I do love of the church and religions. There are times when it gets in the way too, because there are moments where God is so surprising and meets us in such unexpected ways that to tell a person, no, you're wrong, it has to look this way, when God has clearly spoken in another path, is— it almost crushes faith sometimes to do that. So thank you for being your honest self. There's no better There's no better person for anyone to be but their honest self. And so thank you for presenting that in this new book. And it comes out very soon. Actually, at the time that you're listening to this, I think we're about a week away from its release. So— or no, I'm sorry, probably about a month away. I'm sorry, it's April 16th when it comes out.

More time to buy it.

That's right. And to preorder it. But it is, it is such a good read. Thank you for writing it. Thank you for sharing it. And I know your, your schedule is, is not easy these days, probably every day. So thank you for spending, um, so much time with me here on this podcast today. I really appreciate it. And as I say to my guests every week, I get to say it to you, uh, Nancy French, thank you for being one of the voices in my head this week.

Oh, thank you, Rick. So nice to meet you.

Well, just one moment and we'll head out of here today, but, um, I just want to thank everyone for listening to Voices in My Head. Thank you for being here. With my guest today, Nancy French. If you'd like to find out more about me, the music I make, the podcasts I make, even my life as a chaplain, as a music pastor, recording artist, you can go to rickleejames.com. And thank you so much, and we'll see you here again next time.