Episode 600 Celebration! guest host Charles Christian Voices in my Head (the Rick Lee James Podcast

Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I am your host Rick Lee James, and I am so glad that you are here with us this week for the 600th episode of Voices in My Head, depending on how you count it. It looks like according to Podbean, I have a few more than that because we've had some special episodes along the way, but, uh, but for my celebration purposes, this is number 600. And I'm so glad to be here with you tonight. And I have a special guest who I'm going to kind of turn the show over to tonight, as I've done a few times in the past whenever we've had special shows celebrating different occasions like this. He is Charles Christian, and he is not only just an amazing minister that I've known for several years, part of the Church of the Nazarene, he's also an author. Had him on here a while back. He wrote a book on ethics, which is excellent. And so I really want to recommend that to anybody who's listening. But also he is a newscaster in the Kansas City area, and I'm just so glad to have him here tonight. And I thought it might be fun. Hey, how about I get a professional broadcaster to, to, to ask me some questions about 600 episodes of Voices in My Head? Just kind of turn it over and let him ask whatever he wants to ask, and I'll do my best to answer it. So, uh, Charles Christian, welcome back to Voices in My Head, and now you officially have the steering wheel tonight.

Thank you so much, Rick. Rick, it is a pleasure to be here again. Uh, as Rick mentioned, we've known each other for quite a few years now. We're both guitar players, uh, we're both ministers. Uh, Rick's chaplain, and, uh, we both have a lot of mutual friends in common as well and kind of kept up with one another through the years. And, and I was very, uh, very proud to be on the, uh, podcast several years ago when my book on clergy ethics came out, so I appreciate that. And I have kept up with Rick, not just personally but through his podcast. And just every once in a while, you know, I will get to tune in and hear wonderful interviews with great musicians, great leaders, great ministers, influential folks in all kinds of realms that Rick has had the opportunity to talk with, and I feel like Rick always brings out the best in people, and that really suits his job, and it also suits this podcast because— so I hope to get to do that. I hope I get to do a little bit of that tonight.

Well, thank you. Yeah, I'm so looking forward to getting to chat with you tonight, so, and thank you for those kind words.

Well, thank you. And 600— I know you do something special for every 100 podcasts, and so for 600. Let me start out by asking you, uh, are there a few— I know you treat every guest especially good, and we are always appreciative of that— but, uh, are there a few guests that stand out where you say, man, I wasn't sure I'd be able to get them, but I got them, and, uh, and here's what I learned from them? Is there— there are some— a few impactful ones that come to mind? I know there are a lot of them, but a few that come to mind right away over these 600 episodes?

Yeah, that's a great question. And I— one that stands out to my mind is one that we just lost here recently was Walter Brueggemann. And Walter and I became good friends as a result of the podcast, and it was always a pleasure to be able to catch up with him whenever I had a chance. I would— for a while he was living in Cincinnati, and so I got to go. It's— Cincinnati is really only an hour and a half away from where I live, so I would be able to go down and take him to lunch at First Watch, and we'd sit and chat together for a while, and then we'd go back to his church where he would attend and sit in his library, and he would just let me ask him questions, and we would record it for the podcast. And so he was one that at first I thought, oh, I could never get a theologian like Walter Brueggemann. What would I even say? And I found him to be just the most personable, funny, very warm, one of the— I don't know, he was just one of my favorite humans, to be honest with you. I was pleasantly surprised he even did an endorsement of some of my music. He really liked my song Advent Hymn: Watching, Waiting, Longing from the album Hymns, Prayers, and Invitations. And I know for people that are mostly in the musical realm, not everybody knows who Walter Brueggemann is, but in the theology world, there are few people more revered. And so for me, it was just personally, that was a really wonderful relationship. I was so sad when we lost him just a few months ago, and it's It's something that, that really hit me hard when it happened because I hadn't talked to him probably in, in a year or so, or, you know, corresponded in any way. I knew he was failing in health and had moved up to Michigan, and, you know, you just kind of lose touch with people. But that was one. I really, really enjoyed my conversation with Stephen Tobolowsky, who you would probably know him from numerous television shows and movies, everything from The Goldbergs to He was the principal on The Goldbergs whenever that show was on. He's been in countless movies. He was— he's a voiceover actor, but everyone knows him best for Groundhog Day, where he plays the report— the insurance man, Ned Ryerson. And he was a wonderful conversation to have. I remember both of us even getting a little choked up during that interview because there was some spiritual moments we touched on out of his book. That was fun. Always love having Andrew Peterson on. He is always a great guest with so much insight. Both as a musician and an author and multi-talented now, you know, basically a TV show producer with all of his Wingfeather Saga books. I could probably go on and on. Jason Gray, Sarah Groves. Gosh, there's just been so many in 600 episodes. And I guess I'm always a little surprised when people want to talk to me and when they want to come on the podcast because I podcasts are strange. Sometimes it's famine or feast as far as the number of listeners you have, and sometimes it's up, sometimes it's down. But it's really always an honor when people listen. And, and last week, in fact, the guest I had, which will be coming out next week after this episode, the guest I had actually quoted something from one of my past episodes he'd been listening to, and I was like, oh, wow, you know, you, you knew that show, you remembered something I said probably better than I remembered it. So Um, yeah, so that's it. Those are just a few people I think of.

Well, there's been such a wide range of the wonderful people you've mentioned. I know Will Willimon has been on.

Yes.

I know Phil Keaghy and several, uh, very well-known and well-respected musicians have been on, actors, producers, writers. So you've kind of run the gamut, run the gauntlet, and I, I think that's why Voices in My Head is a perfect I actually, when I got to be on a few years ago, I told Fran, I was like, I have heard the best podcast title I've ever heard in my head. And where did you come up with that? I know it's catchy, but yeah, speaks to a lot.

Well, it was exactly that. I was becoming a fan of podcasts, and I think it was back in I— gosh, if I think back, I think it was January of 2012, uh, when I first started recording episodes. So it's been several years ago now, and I was listening to quite a few podcasts just, uh, when I would run or when I would do things around the house, and I kept thinking, that would be really cool to have a podcast someday and just talk to people. And I wasn't sure what form it would take. I'd never tried anything like that. I knew that I was earnestly trying to pursue a career in music at the time, and I didn't want to be necessarily bound to only music in what I talked about because I have so many interests, and sometimes music is the thing that helps me, um, to focus a little more, and I put a lot of passion into music. But I really enjoy reading, I really enjoy watching things, I enjoy following kind of news. And so Voices in My Head just seemed to be like the one. I wish I could say I knew where the inspiration came from, but I felt like that title would allow me to talk about a lot of different things and not be confined to any one thing necessarily. So it ended up being faith-driven conversations with people who were or were not possibly part of the faith community, but always trying to look at it through that lens and ask certain questions as I had conversations. So yeah, so thank you. I love the title and I'm glad I chose it years ago. It's all— I've always gotten good comments about the name of the show.

That's great. Well, give us an inside scoop on a couple of things. One, what— how do you normally approach folks who, you know, really, I mean, some big names who are, as you mentioned, sort of jokingly, like, why would they talk to anybody, frankly, not just a podcaster, but some of them are very well known in their fields. You mentioned that there are some— and I'm going to follow up on that too— who may not be directly known for being connected to faith, the Christian faith per se, and yet they appear on, on your podcast. So two things: how do you, how do you usually get a hold of them? And secondly, um, talk briefly about the folks who may not be as directly connected with faith is, you don't have to name names you don't want to, but, but what has stood out to you in some of those conversations? Because those are fascinating as well.

Yeah, well, you know, the way that I reach out is, I didn't know at first how to do it. So the first couple episodes were just kind of some friends of mine that I was like, hey, you want to come on and talk and have a podcast? I remember having Brandon Hancock and different people on just to talk about you know, different things. And then I thought, well, maybe I can, I can reach out. And I think, I think it was somehow I found information management. Somebody, I think for Andrew Peterson, was one of the first ones that I had reached out to. It wasn't— I think it was within the first 10 episodes. And then asking Andrew Peterson, like, who are some of your favorite writers, influences? And he named Michael Card, Sarah Grose, you know, different people. And so I reached out to their people and said, hey, I just want to let you know, I had Andrew Peterson on my show and, um, did mention, you know, you were one of their big influences. Wonder if you'd like to come on and have a conversation, you know, and talk about that. And one thing just led to the next. A lot of times it just turned into things like that. I would make one contact here and another there. Sometimes I would just take a chance and reach out through by email and say, hey, I don't know if, you know, you have any interest, but this is what I do. I'd love to have a conversation. And not always— there's still a couple white whales that I haven't been able to catch, so to speak— but almost everybody who I've really wanted to have a conversation with, I've been able to have a conversation with somehow. And I think at this point, just having so many episodes and a consistent listener base, that's helpful. And if a person, especially, it's hard to sell books, it's hard to sell music. And I think people are kind of always looking for ways to have conversations and kind of get it out there. And giving them an opportunity just to share about themselves is a really helpful thing to them too. I feel like we're— you're doing a service for other people that way too. Um, and then there's been connections that I've made through that, uh, that have helped me have, you know, people to play with along the way, be in the studio with people, and then you meet other connections there. So that's a lot how I meet people. When it comes to people that aren't necessarily part of the Christian faith or, or a part of other faiths, or maybe, um, people who don't have any faith at all, um, I, I have found that that oftentimes they are still interested in a conversation as to their particular point of view, and they appreciate having a conversation that's not combative, a place where someone can listen and hear a perspective that is different and say, thank you for that, thank you for sharing, I appreciate where you're coming from, and ultimately finding that there are things we always hold in common. And faith is a beautiful thing that we share, but not everybody shares the same faith, if any faith at all, for sure.

And do you find yourself at times having to sort of say that up front, like, hey, I'm not here, I'm not going to debate you per se, I'm not going to play gotcha with you? Do you have to have that conversation at times?

Uh, sometimes I've, I have said that in the past, uh, but not, not very often. I usually just kind of couch it in This is who I am, and I am a Christian, but I want you to know it's not my goal to proselytize you or to fight you or anything. I'm really genuinely interested in you as a person, and I'd love to talk and let you ask me questions if we can have any discussion along the way. And almost always it's turned out very well doing it that way, whether it be in the realms of music or politics or movies or authors that come on. One of my favorites was, uh, was David Morrell, who, who wrote First Blood, uh, created the character of Rambo, and he's written a lot, a lot through the years. And David doesn't have any particular faith leanings at all. He said he doesn't believe in organized religion, and I said, well, you should come to my church. We're the most disorganized place I've ever seen, you know. But anyway, he kind of, he kind of laughed at that, and we just kind of talked for a little bit. But he had some really great insights just into humanity. And through his books and hearing his perspectives on a character that he created like Rambo, that we only think of now as this action figure, but he really created it as a person who was dealing with PTSD. And his novel was based on instances of students that he was teaching coming back from the war, and teaching them on a, on a very on a very human level, seeing the pain they were going through, trying to figure out how to help. So it's— it was kind of a mystery to him how Rambo turned into this action, you know, shoot 'em up, bloody star when he really was trying to create a statement about the pain that people were going through in that moment. So I just think good conversations come from our humanity, and he has a real heart for shared humanity. So that's, that's one instance that I think of.

But first of all, and you know, and just real quick on that character, I mean, First Blood, which was the first Rambo kind of movie, was exactly that, based on his novel. And it was the— this, this guy just wandering through a town, right? And he, he was sort of trying to sort his life out after the Vietnam War. And of course, things go haywire. But yeah, the What you have in the original Rambo is this, uh, guy who's trying to come to grips with being back in the non-combat world again. And so it was very ahead of its time in a way when people weren't talking as much about PTSD. So it's fascinating that you can get guests like that who can shed a little light, educate folks, and also of course talk about what goes into the crea— that creative process. And speaking of the creative process, I'm doing a transition here. You can tell. But you, of course, you're a musician. You've recorded. You've been— you've gotten to go to the Grammys. You've gotten to play music with a variety of musicians and wonderful opportunities. How do you— and you mentioned you're a chaplain as well, which we know that's a very involved profession, and music is— it takes to keep your chops up and to keep connected with folks. It takes a lot of time. And then, oh, by the way, you have a podcast. So how have you found a way to balance your music and your interest staying up with kind of what's going on and who's out there, and of course just your regular job as a chaplain dealing with often difficult situations in people's lives? How Talk about that balance and how you have sought to achieve that.

Well, I appreciate that question. The answer is I don't know that I balance it very well, unfortunately. I think for a while I thought, I'm going to be able to do it all. I'm going to keep doing music. I'm going to keep doing chaplaincy. I'm going to keep doing the podcast the way I've always done it. I'm going to keep up my songwriting. I'm going to keep working at the church where I'm music pastor at. And I had to surrender a lot of that and just say, I can only do what I can do, uh, at this moment in life. Uh, I am called into full-time healthcare chaplaincy. It was not something that I looked for or wanted even. It was something that God surprised me with. And so it's been a matter of a lot of it, uh, God kind of breaking me free from having to be on top of everything all the time. And what's interesting about it is whenever I started the schooling for chaplaincy, going back to school, getting a master's degree, which all of this was just such a hard journey for me. That was the same within a month of when I was welcomed into the Recording Academy, the Grammys, you know, and it was like, I mean, I didn't win a Grammy, but you have to be brought in by peers and you have to have a set number of people who have actually made recommendations who are part of the Recording Academy. So then I become a I'm a voting member. And it was like this kind of milestone musically. And I thought, oh, finally, I'm, you know, I'm getting some not only like really good reviews of my music, I'm getting good press. And now I'm in the Recording Academy now, like I'm finally arriving. And it was then that God was like, nope, you're going to head into healthcare chaplaincy now and start your master's degree. And, you know, it was, it was such a derailing. I felt like, God, what in the world? And yet in the process of doing this healthcare chaplaincy, I finally, after several years now, have achieved my master's. I finally was able to officially apply for board certification and do all the things that take so much time, so much effort. And it was through that process I started getting invitations to play on other people's albums. And so, and as you talked about last year, Totally unexpectedly, this great artist Antonio Verguera reached out, said, "Love your music, I love your playing." And he's doing it through a translator because he only speaks Spanish. He doesn't speak English. So we're kind of going through this online and using— I think he's got Google Translate or something on his end and welcomes me to play on this blues album. And so I'm playing electric guitar on some of his music and Next thing I know, the album gets nominated for a Grammy. So in the midst of me thinking I'm surrendering it all, wondering, you know, what do I give up? What do I keep doing? It was almost like God in the midst of like, don't quite give up on music yet. I know you, you've kind of surrendered that over. But the next thing I know, I'm in LA for the Grammys. And, you know, being a part of this whole crazy process, it was just a whirlwind. So sorry for my long answer.

No, no, no, but I was going to say, you're kind of leading in my next question. Spiritually, then, as Christians, we, we do believe that God works often through a process that includes trust and obedience. The old hymn, Trust and Obey. Yeah, it's a big part of the Christian life, the Christian walk, and the Christian tradition. And so it sounds like sometimes that trust comes with some sacrifice that that we just pray and hope and, and often find that God in his bigness and goodness kind of helps us with on the other end. Sounds like experienced some of that, especially lately.

Yeah, for sure. And, you know, the other thing I had to give up that I didn't want to give up was being a music pastor. I was at my church for 24 years as a music pastor here in Springfield, Ohio. And it just— I just couldn't continue to do everything all at once. What I didn't realize was how much music was going to be involved in my chaplaincy work. And to the point that one thing that I am discovering I'm doing with music now, and I almost wonder, Charles, that if all of my training and working hard and trying to be the best musician I could be didn't lead into this moment in chaplaincy where I do— I've never heard anyone else call it this, but I'm calling it this. I do what I call a musical life review with people. So I will sit down with my guitar, or sometimes I'll take a keyboard in to a patient's room, and I will ask them, if I know that they connect with music, tell me a song that's really meaningful to you. And then if I know it, and so often I do, where I can, I can fake it pretty easy. I'll play a song for them. And then that leads to, tell me why that song is so meaningful to you. And then that's when the stories start to come. Then they'll, they'll go back to their childhood or they'll go back to their wedding day or they'll go back to, you know, different, very important moments throughout the life, or there'll be this line in the song. And then that leads into another song. And I said, why don't we try to play that one too? You know? And so there's, there's been a lot of music in chaplaincy. And it's, it's not something that's on stage, but it's something that I feel has been so healing in people's lives and even in my own life. So it's been— music has looked quite different, but I feel like in some ways I'm doing music more than I ever have before. It's just, it's just I'm doing it one person at a time, you know.

I get it. That's great. Well, very affirming along the way.

Yeah.

Those gifts that you've invested so much time in haven't gone away. They've just been sort of repurposed in a way, or at least refocused. And, uh, and, and of course, by the way, you get to, uh, still be a part of some pretty exciting bigger recordings from time to time. Yeah, beautiful. That's a great thing. A couple more things. I know our time's getting a little short here, but you mentioned earlier something about you still got some big fish that you want to pull in here to the podcast, just not only for your own, uh, uh, you know, edification, but to share, uh, with folks who, who may not realize that, uh, you know, the, the importance of some of these folks. Uh, are you comfortable naming a few that you're hoping to get over the next year or two, or at least, at least the categories of folks if you don't want to name the actual folks?

Yeah, well, you know what, just for the sake of time, I'll just name one tonight. And this is one that I have been trying consistently since 2012, and I have never had a reply. Stephen Curtis Chapman. I have tried so hard. I feel like every other person that I have reached out to just about has at least— I've had management contact me back and say, you know, oh, we'd love to, or wish we could, can't work it out right now. I've never even had a response from any of his people. And I know he's like the biggest star in the world, at least in Christian music. And, uh, but it's always interesting because his wife is from the city that I live in, and I know they come back every year at Christmas time. They always are here in town, and I know so many people that know them and say what sweet and beautiful people the whole family is. And I always just think, oh, one of these days when he's in Springfield, it would just be great if I could just sit down with him. And then I'll run into people, you know, it's like, hey, I ran into Steven the other day, he was here with his family. And I was like, don't— you know, it's— I just never— we've just never connected for whatever reason.

So he's busy playing all those free Taylor guitars he gets now.

That's right, that's right. It's the Taylor guitars. Yeah, he's just— he would be amazing to have on. I feel like if I had him, I could probably just quit the podcast. I'd be like, okay, that's, that's fine, I've achieved everything I wanted to achieve with this show. Um, so maybe one of these—

you do, you can tell him, uh, I met him, uh, when I was— uh, he's a little bit older than me, but, uh, I was at the end of high school and I met him when he was a solo opening act for a group called Whiteheart. Oh wow, I got to actually walk up in a gym and meet him just briefly, and when he had the super long hair going. Anyway, yeah, it's a thumb high for me. That was, uh long time ago. But anyway, that's great. Finally, what are some then goals that you have going forward? And I know with your busy schedule and with all the irons in the fire that you are seeking to manage and do well in as you're doing, uh, you— it helps to have, uh, some motivating goals. And you've mentioned one, getting certain names on that you really are still wanting to hear from. Through your podcast. But what are some things that you hope listeners take away as time goes on, as the podcast continues on, Lord willing? And, you know, how— what are you hoping— what are your goals personally, and what are you hoping folks can take away from your podcast going forward?

Well, well, that's a— that's wonderful. And maybe this is a great place to kind of close close our conversation out with tonight. I would love— I feel like in my heart where I'm really passionate about right now is helping people be spiritually healthy, uh, emotionally, physically, but, but especially spiritually. There's all these ways of trying to be healthier, and I think especially pastors are among the least emotionally healthy people, and, and I don't mean that as a negative towards pastors. I just mean there's so much on them. And there are always people telling ministers, and not just ministers, Christians in general, like, you need to be doing more, you need to constantly be reaching out, you need to do this and do that and win this person and do, you know, and it, and it just feels like we are raising them up to be absolutely burnt out and exhausted. And if I could do anything through this podcast and even through my music in the coming days, and when I have the privilege of speaking, whether it be at a church or at seminars with people, I always want to remind them that they can just be and that they can rest in God and allow God to restore them and renew them and know that the goal is not necessarily to win the whole world to Jesus. The whole— the goal is to love people and to see Jesus in them, just like Matthew 25, where whatever you've done to the least of these, you've done it to me. I really think we would be healthier if our goal was not look at me and see Jesus. I think that it would be so much healthier if the goal was look at others and see Jesus in them and love them like you would love Jesus. And it takes so much pressure off your shoulder that I have to be constantly on or performing or doing something for others.. It's a matter of just being and just loving Jesus and just loving Jesus and the person in front of you that you see, letting God do the work that needs to be done. So my hope is that in the coming days I'll be able to flesh that out a little more. I, I've finally reached a point where, uh, there's so much work getting ready for board certification, and I'm about 90% done with that, that I'm able to hopefully start honing in some things. So coming up in January, I will be doing, um, some workshops at Worship 424, which is a big conference that happens that involves several states at Cedarville University. And I'm going to be talking about our emotional and spiritual health. And I'm— so I hope a lot of people will come in and talk about that. But also I'll be talking about the way it can be useful in your songwriting too, allowing yourself to be vulnerable, allowing yourself to just be and, and not trying to copy other people, but actually just being the person God made you to be, and that is enough. So I think that is a wonderful way to, to end our time.

And thank you for the privilege, brother, of letting me interview you for a change and, uh, hearing that, that commitment of, uh, which is a great lesson for all of us really, is to just be and to see Jesus in other people. Uh, I'll just say, not because I'm hosting your podcast, but I've always seen that in you, Rick, and always admired that about you and, uh, hope someday we can— we got to jam briefly one time at a couple guitars, that was so fun. I hope we get to do that again someday.

Indeed, me too. I think that would be great. Well, Charles, thank you so much for, for doing this tonight. This was fun getting to talk about some of the things I have going on, and I do hope we can jam together again. That was fun.

All right, well, Rick, best wishes to you, and, uh, again, congratulations on 600 podcasts.

Thank you so much. And I'm going to actually hit the outro music here real quick. So everybody, thank you so much for supporting and being here for 600 episodes of Voices in My Head. Who knows how many episodes are ahead after this time? We'll just see where God leads us. But thank you. If no one was listening, there'd be no reason to keep recording. And so I'm grateful for all of you. Have a wonderful evening. Thank you again, Charles. Charles, uh, for helping this happen tonight, and I hope everyone listening just has a wonderful, blessed week. Take care.