Episode 602 - Andrew Osenga on How To Remember

Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I am your host, Rick Lee James, and I am so grateful for all of you who have taken time to be here with us today. My guest this week on Voices in My Head is Andrew Osenga. We are so glad to have him back again. As all of you probably know, be— who have listened for a while on this show, even if you haven't listened, I'm sure you know his name. He's a singer and a songwriter, a producer, an amazing guitarist, and now he is the author of a new book, How to Remember: Forgotten Pathways to Authentic Faith. Andrew has played with so many artists, people like Andrew Peterson, Cade Moon's Call, Jars of Clay, among others, and he helped to bring A Liturgy, a Legacy, and the Songs of Rich Mullins Live at the Ryman to life, which was recently released., and all kinds of people are talking about it. He also hosts the thoughtful interview series The Pivot Podcast, where he explores how people navigate seasons of change in life and in faith. And I'm thrilled to have you back, Andrew Osenga. Welcome back to Voices in My Head.

Thanks, Rick. It's so great to be back.

Well, I'm very glad to have you here today. I was trying to think of when the last time we crossed paths. I think it was maybe Roughly 2 years ago, you were playing with Matt Maher and Mission House, and you were the guitarist for them. And I think it was in Anderson, Indiana, uh, that he had come to town. And that's just a couple hours away from where I live, so my wife and I drove over and just had a wonderful evening and got to just briefly catch up with you afterwards. But in that time period, I know you've had a lot going on in your life, uh, and And no small part of that being this new book, which I cannot wait to talk about. But I wonder if just really quickly, because this just happened, like, I think it was last week, actually, the new album release that you're on with Andrew Peterson. And I think if I'm not mistaken, if memory serves, it was recorded in 2017 at the Ryman Auditorium. Do I have the year right? Do you recall?

I think, I think that's right.

Okay.

That's— well, you know what, I have it on my— well, yeah, yeah, I have it on my wall. It was September 14th, 2017.

2017?

No, September 24th, 2017.

Okay, well, a lot of people have been, uh, talking about it. I've listened to it, uh, I've, I've listened and re-listened. I just love it. I'm so glad that that experience and that evening came back. Uh, I always love hearing not only you but so many wonderful artists on that. But, uh, catch us up just real quick on kind of what what that whole process was like, that maybe why, if you know, like why it took so long. And I know there was a Kickstarter that went on and some strings and things were added, but are you able to just give us any, a little bit of the behind the scenes information about that amazing album?

Yeah, well, it wasn't intended to be an album, so we, uh, were gathered by Andrew Peterson to celebrate, I think it was the 20th anniversary of Rich's death. We weren't celebrating his death, we were celebrating his life, but on the anniversary of his death, um, and it had been about 20 years since he'd passed. And the idea was not to gather a bunch of his friends because his friends had done a number of tributes over the years, but this was more a gathering of people who'd been influenced by him, and a few people had maybe met him after a concert or something, but none of us knew him, you know. We just knew his songs. And, you know, we knew his music in high school and college, and a lot of us became songwriters because of his songs. And so the idea was to play through the Liturgy Legacy Ragamuffin Band album, which is just one of the, you know, top 10, top 5 albums in Christian music history. To play, play it through note for note, because it seems like that record's kind of been forgotten a little bit, and, uh, to recreate it live and then, uh, just share some of our other favorite Rich songs and have this one night of celebrating it, uh, those songs at the Ryman. And because we play every year at the Ryman with Andrew's Christmas tour we sort of have an inn over there, and when we get an idea, we're able to do stuff there, which is a real, real treat. Um, so we, yeah, there's— we, we were able to pack the place out, have this beautiful night. Uh, we didn't video it, we didn't intend to record it, that was not a plan, but our sound guy Harold, who is— was our front of house guy with Cadmus Call and the Matt Marr Show that you were at, and The Stephen Curtis tours that I've done and Behold the Lamb every year, I think he and I have done 700 or 800 shows together, we think, at least. Um, I think I've done more shows with him than any other human being in my life, uh, with the Herald running sound and, and me playing.

That's great.

Um, and, and vice versa, I think we've done the most shows together. Um, he's just one of my dear friends, but he, anyway, he's up there at the sound booth, and he was like, you know what, I think I should record this. And he's got— this console had the ability to multitrack and to record at things, I think, on 24 channels or something. And so he was just like, at the right as we were starting, he just kind of casually hit record. It just— it saved it to a hard drive, didn't tell any of us, and forgot, forgot about it. To my— the best of my knowledge, forgot about it. And I think texted Andrew or Ben maybe a year or two later, was like, hey, I got these files on a drive, do you want them? And so then Ben had them on his hard drive for a while and just started kind of messing around with it and would every now and then just kind of mix a song and maybe fix a couple things, clean it up, and send one to Andrew. And his— in his words, his goal was to make Andrew cry today. And then, um, eventually they started kind of concocting a scheme like, maybe we should put this out as a record. And, um, that just took a long time. Yeah. And then they raised the money, uh, on Kickstarter. Uh, I mean, the record was essentially done. We had to clean up some things, you know, there were just some things that could have been recorded a little better because it wasn't intended to be an album. So like, we re-recorded the strings, um, because they weren't captured in a way that you would want to, you know, they didn't sound that great for an album. And then there were some, just some lyrics that got flubbed maybe, or, you know, little things like that. I recorded the song. I had played the song What Susan Said, which is one of my favorite songs off, uh, The World's Best, I Remember It Volume 2. And I always thought that the chorus said, uh, the thing, more than the things that we've got lost or something. Anyway, I, I just— I sang a word wrong that I had thought was right since high school. I'd always heard it because he kind of mumbles it.

Yeah.

So I'd always— I just— I didn't look at the lyrics. I just sang what I always thought he said, and then it turns out I was singing it wrong. So I had to just punch one word in each chorus, you know. And there was all kinds of stuff like that, or just a couple notes here or there. So we do some of that stuff. Actually, I don't think we punched any instrumentation. I think all the instrumentation for the most part correct unless it was recorded poorly. Um, and then, but we wanted to have it out on vinyl and we needed to get perm— and the other thing was we need to get permission. Um, and just because we don't own those songs and you want to honor the legacy is you got to take care of the— take care of, uh, the copyrights and, and make sure that— because a lot of his copyrights still go to fund the ministries that he cared about. So like that, that record is still funding like ministries in the Navajo Nation.

Yeah.

And so we wanted to make sure that we were paying every, every dime that needed to be paid for those. So that was worth raising money for.

Yeah. And I was just going to say, I can confirm that because I recorded one of his songs a few years back and I had to go through that same thing for one song. So I can't imagine Oh, it took years. Yeah. So for, for to do that for a number of, of songs, that's a, that's a whole big endeavor. I understand now all you're telling me, uh, why it took so long for it. And it's just amazing it was even recorded in the first place.

Yeah, accident.

And I'm, and I'm so grateful it was though, because I, I feel like I needed it. Like, I, I remember Dave Trout telling me, because he was there that night, and a few other people I knew who were there just telling me like, wow, it was just— it, it just like fed me in such like ways I didn't even realize I needed it. It was there. And I remember being a little bit jealous when Dave was, you know, we were talking about it, because like, oh, I wish I could have been there that night. It sounds like really special evening with a lot of really special people. And then to hear it, for me, um, it, it had that very same kind of thing. I didn't, I didn't know how much I needed it. I appreciated everybody's stories. I appreciated the spirit. I— it was a very It was very clear throughout the evening that everybody's heart was that the Holy Spirit would just speak. And it's very rare that I find any album that speaks to me in that way, but I'm just very grateful for it having come at the right time once again, as God so often does, presenting those things to us. And which brings us to, to now, um, with getting to talk to you today, which I feel like is a real gift and being able to speak with you about your new book. And I, I really am loving the heart behind this book, and I haven't finished it yet. I always try to read everything in advance as much as I can, but life has just been so busy lately.

Thanks for even trying, Rick.

Well, you know what, I have been able to read even this morning. Some of the time what I do, it's, it's a lot more listening than it is reading because I'm thankful that this Kindle app on my phone, I can, I can turn on VoiceOver and start listening. So I was out on a walk this morning and was listening to some of it. So it was almost like a book on tape, but not quite.

Oh, there will be an audiobook version out soon. I need to—

oh good.

Yeah, I need— I'm literally finishing it this week.

Yeah, that's terrific. That's great. Well, you have some very good, um, reflective things in the book. And as somebody who spent, you know, 25-ish years as a worship pastor in mostly one church, but who has led a lot of music in a lot of different places. Um, and then currently in my position at the hospital, I lead a service every week at the hospital. And I resonate a lot with what you're writing about with recapturing some of the things. And I loved how in, in the, uh, you, you say something to the extent of a lot of modern church can feel like 5 pop songs and a TED Talk. And, uh, I, I I really like that description, and I think especially since I have pulled away from leading in my congregation on a regular basis anyway, and leading at the hospital in different ways where we will grab a hymn book or we might just have to print some lyric sheets. It's very low-tech, much more low-tech than I've been in years. There's something that my heart has longed for, not known how much I needed to get away from the tracks that are running and the different things on Sunday morning and getting away from a screen. Um, so I, I wonder if you could maybe just tell us a bit today with the whole writing of this, uh, this book, what inspired you personally, uh, to write How to Remember? Because I know there was some really big things going on in your heart and mind.

Yeah, well, I was inspired by a few— first of all, thank you for your kind words, Rick. Um, I was inspired by a few different things. I think my own personal journey, um, was that I was raised in a, in a very kind of narrow view of the church, a very fundamentalist view, which I'm thankful for in a lot of ways, and also had to unlearn some things. Um, and then, uh, quickly started traveling the country when I was really young and playing music, music in a bunch of different churches, met a bunch of different people who had a bunch of different experiences, uh, and believed in Jesus in a lot of different ways, which is a really, uh, beautiful way to, to learn a lot about Jesus before I, uh, really knew much about theology or anything. Um, but then As my career progressed, I started getting, uh, kind of bitter, uh, about just the business side of, of Christian music. And especially, uh, let's be honest, I wasn't bitter when things were going well. I wasn't bitter when I had a single that was doing well early on. But when my career stopped doing as well as it did when I was the, the next big thing, then I started getting bitter. Um, and when I, when I, when the worship music sort of took over, uh, from CCM, you know, and all of a sudden every band had to have a worship song and a worship album, and it felt like I was seeing, uh, felt very performative at times. Not that everybody was being that way, but at times it felt like, oh, to, to sell a lot of records, you got to make a worship album. And something about it felt very disingenuous in some ways, and it just always kind of rubbed me wrong. And I was very uncharitable about it. And, uh, I think, yeah, I, I saw the, the darker side of what happens when we as a church, uh, put commerce, uh, at the forefront of how we want to communicate with each other, and when we let what is popular sort of dictate the things that we want to talk about. And as my career progressed, I ended up moving into executive roles at Christian music companies, and which in a lot of ways I loved and had some great experiences. And, um, that's the— I got to mentor artists and, and help bring songs to the church. And there are songs that are sung all around the world that I got to help, um, sort of, you know, be a part of in quiet ways that nobody will know about. And that was— that is such a huge gift. But I also have sat in boardrooms and have heard um, you know, marketing teams say, whoa, we can't talk about that, you know, Christians don't want to hear about sadness, or, uh, we can't, that's too, that, you know, that's, that's too real, or that's too this, that's too that, that's too this, that's too that. And, uh, every time it just kind of would, would break my heart a little bit because here are people that are trying to talk about the gospel, they're trying to talk about the real life experiences And I've been at church, I've been, uh, leading songs in church. I've, I've seen, uh, or I say I've been a person who's standing in church who's lost a lot of things, who's been suffering, who's been doubting, and who's been asked to sing a song that's all about, um, victory, or that, that feels very thin, uh,, and I've gone, oh, this song doesn't have anything to do with my life. Yeah, nothing about what's happening in my life where my house just flooded, my wife is sick, and my kids— and my kids hurting, and, um, you know, I don't have any money in the bank. Like, none of— none of my life is in the words on this screen. So what does God have to do with me? Do I belong here? You know, and particularly when you've got 6,000 people in a room and they're moving, or you're moving people in and out of 5 services a day, it's so easy to have no one know that you're there. And we become spectators. We become people who are buying a product of a church rather than being a part of a church. And that's the— that's, I should say, that's the worst of it, right? It's not It's not like that's what it always is, or it's not like that's what really anybody wants it to be. But too often, if we are not careful, that's what it ends up being.

Yeah.

And for many people, that is what their experience has been. And I've had—

I should—

all that to say, the reason I wrote this book is because I've had conversation after conversation after conversation dozens, now hundreds, now probably thousands of times with people, uh, or as I've traveled the country and as I've worked with songwriters who have said, I love Jesus, this was a huge part of my life, I don't think I belong here anymore because I just don't— this stuff doesn't resonate with me because I just feel like it's all for sale and I don't want to be a part of any of that. And I've heard it so many times, Rick. Yeah, that, uh, it's hard. It broke my heart because I know it's not true, right? It's not the gospel. It's not what Jesus came to talk about. It's not what—

it's not—

it's not what we're here to do. Yeah, uh, it's not why we're gathered is to sell stuff. Uh, in fact, there are two stories in the Bible where Jesus walked into a temple and made it very clear that he was not a fan of things being sold in that space, right?

Yeah.

Uh, but we, we, uh, as Americans conveniently like to forget that because our culture is just built around that.

Yeah.

And, and it seeped into the church. So, um, I'm definitely rambling right now, Rick, but, uh, I wrote the book around that idea of pushing back about that. And how do we remember that the church is more than that as we look at the church before this era of commerce? Because Christians have been making beautiful things and have been engaging with God for generations, and they've been doing it through songs and through prayers and through practices. And those things have been handed down And, um, here in our modern world, we kind of feel like we have to reinvent everything, right? So we've started over on all these things. We're singing all new songs, which in some ways, you know, sing a new song unto the Lord, that's, that's a good thing. Um, but we've forgotten the old songs.

Yeah.

And, um, or even to— yeah, we just, we've forgotten, um, to, to sing the, the wider vocabulary of songs. Um, and there's so much that we can sing about. And to know that we can sing about loving our neighbor, and we can sing about resting, and we can sing about giving, and we can sing about evangelism, and we can sing about grieving, and we can sing about doubt, and we can— all these things, as we sing about them, it helps us know how to engage the world and how to, um, how to walk through our lives as children of God.

Yeah.

And And the same thing with the different forms of prayer and different kinds of practices. And so as I've been studying that and, and kind of falling into these, um, older practices in my own life, uh, I realized that that's what has given me a lifeline out of this sort of commercial form of Christianity. Yeah. And I wrote the book to help other people find that too.

Yeah. Well, that's terrific. And I wanted to actually go into some of the actual things you wrote in the book because I find it very helpful. I wish I could cover the whole book, but we can't in the time that we have today. But I love the emphasis pretty early on. You talk about your collection of hymnals that you have gotten over the years, which I really love. I'm actually trying to find a common set of hymnals for our hospital chapel, by the way. So anybody listening, they're not willing to pay anything for these, but I I know they're around. I want there to be one that we could just have.

I mean, I feel like there's so many churches that just have a giant set of hymnals in a back room.

I know. But I love how when you're examining the hymnal, I really like the study that you did and some things that you found in common, because I'm always fascinated about the life of a song, especially a sacred song. And then what is it that makes it stick around for such a long time? I think there are some of the unseen things. Like, there are just some songs I think God has God's hand upon, and there's just something that continues to move in us again and again. And no matter how many times they're remade and rewritten and redone, they just seem to always resonate. Um, but there's— there are also some things that, that you, aside from that, which I think God works through, that you point out. And I love how, uh, you point out that there, there are some songs in hymnals even that Thankfully, they need to go. There's some things that have bad theology. There's even some racism and sexism and things like that. If you go through enough hymn pages, you'll find it just like always.

Yeah, there's some people like, I love the old hymns. I'm like, yeah, you know, yeah. So that's like saying I love the music of the '70s. Like, there was a lot of music in the '70s that was terrible. We also had Led Zeppelin.

I know. So yeah, exactly. So there's something even deeper than just like, well, it's in a hymnal, so it's sacred. There's something beyond that. That I think you're trying to get at. And what you found, I'm gonna just read a little bit of it here. As you studied from all these different hymnals and different things, you found about the songs that seem to last and be in a deeper place. You said, here's what I found: an honesty about suffering and doubt. Love that. An awareness of time and place, God's faithfulness and joy and spiritual intimacy and suffering and in doubt at all times and everywhere. And lastly, God's mysterious majesty, his presence, his glory, his goodness, and his otherness. And you say that these themes were present in virtually all of the songs that transcended eras and denominations. And I just wanted to add to that, I very much agree. And in my work now as a hospital chaplain, where I very literally am with people dying almost every day, sometimes several people every day, And a lot of what I do is I take my guitar into a room with them if their families are open to it. Sometimes they don't have families at all, but the ones who are, I find that they are asking me for particular songs. Almost always it's songs like, can you sing, um, uh, In the Garden? Like, they always want that song for some reason. Wow. Doesn't matter who it is. Like, even people that don't have much faith, they will ask almost always for that song. Really? Amazing Grace, um, the, the song It Is Well with My Soul. Uh, they're just different songs like that. Now it'll be— it might be different songs if it's a different ethnicity. So there's a lot of old gospel hymns, um, Give Me Jesus, or, you know, things like that, that, that'll come through and people ask for. But there are certain songs that as I see your list of things that you found, I'm looking at it going, yeah, this makes sense. I get it. There's songs about real life, about grieving, about hard times and, and things that you almost have to have a fullness of something like a hymn book to cover all the different things. Just like the Book of Psalms, which was Israel's, Israel's hymn book, um, it covered so many different things. It, it amazes me to think that every song in the book of Psalms was sung by the church together.

Isn't that the craziest thing? Even like the violent ones or the just despairing ones.

Break the teeth in their mouth, Lord, and, you know, dash their infants against the rocks and, you know, all those different things.

It's like there was a congregation singing that.

I know, it's wild.

It's insane.

And it just seems like we've lost a lot in leaving things behind. And the life of a song— I know you know this probably much better than I do, but just things I've been reading, even just in the early '90s, I think the life of a song on a CCLI Top 100 chart was something like 11 years. And now it's much more akin to 4, if that, because the songs are in transition so much. And I find I travel a lot on weekends now, still thankfully getting to play music and speak, and I find that there is not a common song very much anymore. From church to church, like, oh, we're going to do this, you know that, don't you? And I'm like, I've never heard that song. Or somebody else in another church, oh yeah, we do this all the time. Never heard that song. And they're really like, as I look them up, like, they're well-known songs, but just there's too many of them. Like, you can't hear everything. So my very long rambling is just to say I appreciate the emphasis of you drawing us back back to some things that we might need to, to uncover again. The old stuff may become new again, uh, because it's— it is things that we just haven't heard yet. Things like hymn books, for instance, which I, I think most children, if you give them a hymn book, or a teenager, they'd say, what is this thing? Yeah, if they've grown up in a church that was, you know, kind of revolves around screens and lights and new songs every week and, and So, but I guess all I'm trying to say is your book is giving me hope because it addresses suffering, it addresses sorrow, it addresses the real life points of it. Um, but, but I did have one question for you. Um, yeah, that I thought might be a good discussion point. And I know you're limited on time today, so I want to be, uh, careful that, that we, we don't take up too much of your time. Um, I find, and, and I wonder if you would agree with this. Um, I hope I'm going to be able to find the passage I was looking for. You say each generation and movement within it can be summed up with a primary theme, and taken together over 2,000 years, all of them might just start to hint at a complete picture of what it means to worship God. So if you have all these things throughout time, um, but, but no one of them tells the full story, which is what I think we've been saying this morning. It's far too vast. We are a culture in touch with our feelings, and it's natural that our worship of him would follow that form. So the question that that raised in my mind was when you said we're a culture that's in touch with our feelings, and I wanted to dive into that just a little bit. You probably didn't expect that one line would stand out, but to me it did.

Huh.

Um, the reason for that is I, I think everything you've said there is correct. None of us gives us the full picture in and of itself. But I wonder if maybe it might be a little bit in our current moment right now, if maybe our culture is not very much in touch with our feelings. And maybe, maybe that is why we are turning away from things like difficult songs and hymns and things. And the only reason I say that is in the hospital setting where I work every day, I sit with people and listen. They literally call chaplaincy a ministry of presence. And so you're with people listening to their story, hearing. And then I'll ask, "So what is it you're feeling right now? What is it you're experiencing?" And most people can't tell me what they're feeling. They go straight to their head. They'll tell you what they're thinking. They tell you what's on their mind, what's going on. But if I ask them to place a feeling to that, is this producing anxiety? Is this producing fear? Do you have isolation? You know, different thoughts like that. I literally have to get out a picture of a wheel of emotions and let people go around with their finger and pick out what it is they're feeling because they can't tell me what it is. When they identify it though, it's like, oh wow, I didn't know that was what I was going through in this moment.

Wow.

Um, and so that, it kind of fascinated me too because we, I think this is my theory, I think in what you're describing here, we are a culture who is in touch with our feelings is what you said, but I wonder if it's more that the church itself, in spite of what some denominations might say and think, I think the church has always been, the church at large, in touch with its feelings. It's been in touch with things that we're afraid to be in touch with right now. So we talked about the Psalms, and we talked about the vast variety of topics that are in something like an old hymn. I wonder if part of it now is we don't wanna deal with things I specifically have noted current songs that are coming out do not want to deal with death. They will— for sure, they will— they will do everything they can to dance around it. They'll deny it exists. There's even a song, a line in a song that says something about the death is a lie. And I, I heard that one day and I thought, this must be so offensive to the person whose room I just left, whose family just lost their loved one.

Because I think about that stuff all the time.

Like, death is very real. And it's not so much that death doesn't exist, it's when death takes our loved ones from us, the faith of Christians is that Christ takes our loved ones from death, but death is still that thing that's there. But anyway, I just— I'm sorry for my rambling. There's not even a question as much as I wanted to just talk about this with you. Like, I wonder if we are burying our emotions the way that the church has—

that's interesting—

so long tried to bring out in the book of Psalms and things, but just— I'll let you talk now. I'm sorry, I'm dominating the conversation.

No, well, that's really interesting. I love that question, Rick. You know, I think my statement was in response to generations of hymns that were either very, very theological, that felt almost mathematical, Oh, right. You know, um, that were, that were almost devoid of emotion, that were sort of, uh, very concept heavy. Um, which there are, there are a number of, of those kinds of hymns. Um, or, and then there are some hymns that are very justice-oriented, you know, or they're very hymns that are very action-oriented. Um, and our generation does talk a lot about how we feel. Um, and so I think that in essence that was what I was trying to talk about. And it's probably particularly the sort of the charismatic strain of songs that we're singing, that we're seeing right now, which are the most popular kinds of songs, which are the ones you're talking about, which, um, you know, these are our top CCLI songs, for the most part, they are very personal, they're very intimate. Um, I think there is value in, in some, in a lot of senses, in this intimacy that they sing from. And there are generations that, that, um, of hymns where you, you don't get that sense of intimacy. Um, you get more, more of a clinical sense, more of a distance. Um, but I think you are dead on about this other idea, this other sense of avoidance. And I think that, that, that's a big, um, I'll— the way that I've been looking at it is, uh, I think in church now we tend to sing about 3, and now maybe 4 topics, which is God is good, God loves us. I like how that makes me feel. And now we're starting to see a lot of songs about God fights for us. All those things are true and all those things are good. Um, the he fights for us, I'm a little worried about because I don't always know who we're fighting against.

Oh, right.

I think sometimes that's taken a lot more politically versus, uh, spiritually. Um, so that's— that could be a little troubling. Um, but we tend to have this very narrow view of our songs, and it's because— the reason we have that is because those are songs that get played on the radio. Those are songs that can sell. Uh, those are songs that are encouraging after a hard day's work, um, and that don't scare away the sponsors on K-LOVE. At 4:45 or 6:30 in the afternoon, right?

Right.

And those are actually where we get all our church songs now, because all top 50 CCLI songs were also top-charting radio songs. Um, it's one-to-one. There's— there are no top CCLI songs now that are also not top-charting Christian radio songs. Which means that we are only singing songs on Sunday, new songs on Sunday morning that will pass a Christian radio marketing board.

Wow.

Right, marketing radio test. Um, so we're not going to sing a song about doubt or suffering because that's not fun to hear Tuesday after a hard day's work in the car. Or with the kids in the back of the minivan, because that's not positive and encouraging, even though it is. It actually is, because it's actually what we need. Uh, that's why we're not singing songs about evangelism or songs about giving, because we are a culture that does not like to give. We like to keep and spend on ourselves. Um, you know, all, all these different things. But these are typically songs that are, you know, all these hymnals are full of those kinds of songs, a very wide vocabulary. Um, sorry, I'm, I, I'm taking your question out for a walk. No, that's good.

Well, it wasn't a very well-formed question, it was more an observation.

But, but what your observation makes me think about all that. Yeah, but, but you're, as far as being in touch and yeah, with our feelings Um, yeah, I think you're right. I mean, I, I do think we— being it, being able to, uh, to keep it to such a narrow thing allows us to avoid a lot of, a lot of feelings. I think you're, I think you're completely right about that. We avoid the suffering, death, all the sad things. Um, well, and we think— because we can think that being a Christian can keep us from that. Yeah, but it actually equips us to deal with that is the difference.

It's true. It's so true. And I, you kind of, as you were talking just now too, I think, I actually, I think my argument would be the church has at its best actually driven us to look at our emotions. 100%. But we have limited which emotions we're willing to look at. Let's put it that way. Yeah. And I don't know if you saw it or not. It's just been out in theaters for like a week or so, but the Springsteen movie, about the living.

But I want to.

I just saw it Monday and oh my goodness, like if there's ever a film that talks about what we're talking about today and, you know, kind of record labels driving everything, I don't want to hear these songs about the guilt you're experiencing and your sadness and your stories. You know, we want something happy and clappy and put it on the radio and go through. And Springsteen was just like, he was tortured. He was in the midst of chronic depression. He didn't know he was having chronic depression, but through the film, you find that that is where he is. And he seems to, at least if that film is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it's not, he seems to not want to embrace anything except what he is really experiencing and going through. And so it's okay that, you know, I'll write some radio hits, but right now this is what I'm really going through. This is what I'm struggling with. I don't know how to relate to people. I'm feeling isolated. I'm feeling doubtful and lonely. I have questions about everything from my family to God, and I don't know what else to do but write about it right now. And I have to get it out. And it needs to sound messy. It needs to sound like it was not done in a polished recording studio, but it needs to sound like it was in my bedroom, you know? And I feel like, wow, that is a great lesson for the church to learn because you find out that that actually did resonate. The particular album that came out from Springsteen at that time, the Nebraska album, had zero interviews about it. There was no promotion, there was no tie-ins, nothing. And it went to number 3 on the charts. Uh, it was like not talked about, no radio singles, nothing.

And everybody still references it.

Yeah, exactly. And it's sort of like, wow, so maybe in the church, you know, if Springsteen can get away with it, uh, maybe the church could could take a lesson and just maybe say what needs to be said. Um, all— so all this is to say, I know we need to wrap it up because I'm taking too much of your time today, but I am really— I am loving the new book, and I, I wanted everybody to have a chance to look at it. I think it's going to produce great conversations. I think that what you write about, spiritual practices, the hymns, um, just different paths that we've forgotten how to walk. So I'm going to make sure we I'll have the links in the show notes for everybody for How to Remember. But we haven't even talked much about your music, which is amazing. And I still think, and I know this is several years old now, but it hit me at the right time. After the Last Tear Falls, you know, the songs like that, they are very much songs in that vein of an honesty that needs to be had. And so I pray and hope you'll continue writing songs like that. Because they need to be heard. And I appreciate what you are writing about in your book. What have we not talked about today that I'm— that you're sitting there thinking, oh, I really wish Rick would have asked about this?

Oh no, man, this is great.

It's great.

I just am glad for the conversation. I appreciate it all. Thank you so much, man.

Well, well, you bet. Well, I want to also reference people to, to listen to your podcast, The Pivot. Oh yeah, always great conversations. Always. Um, so there are many outlets where you can get your Andrew Osenga to fix right now. So there's— if you like to read, there's a book and an audiobook coming. Uh, if you like his music, it's out there for you to find. Uh, and the podcast is great. I just applaud it so much, and I'm so grateful that you took some time to be here today. So, um, so do you have any plans, uh, to do some touring with the book, so to speak? Are you doing some, some bookstores and things like that, or—

well, uh, I'm not really in a place where I'm able to do that right now. We've got some health issues in my family, so I'm not really able to travel much. So, um, it's kind of podcasts and, um, kind of telling the story from, from here. And, um, and we, you know, that, that is the story that we've got these days. And okay, and, um, but that's all right.

So, all right.

Well, but thankfully podcasts are a great way to tell the story.

So for sure, for sure. And yours tell some amazing stories. I love hearing the different people that you bring on and the pivots they have made in their lives. So I look forward to hearing each episode when they come out.

So, well, thank you for helping me tell these stories too, man. I appreciate it.

Well, you bet. Well, thank you everyone for listening to Voices in My Head. I'm so grateful that you're here and And, uh, we'll be with you again next week. I always look forward to the great guests that we have on this show. And thank you so much, Andrew Osenga, for being here with us today.

Thank you, Rick.