Episode One: The Kindness of Fred Rogers

Welcome to The Neighborhood, a Mr. Rogers tribute podcast. I'm your host, Rick Lee James, and I thank you for listening today. I run the @MrRogersSay Twitter account where I daily post quotes from Fred Rogers, and I want to welcome you to This Neighborhood and this brand new podcast in our very first episode. Well, let's get going. Today's episode is titled Kindness. As we venture into this new podcast, we want you to know that no matter where you are coming from, as you listen, we want this to be a safe place for you. We know that those of you who listen are coming from all walks of life, and we want you to know that you are welcome here. Some of you are single, some of you are married, some of you may be in a relationship that is falling apart and you don't know what to do about it. Some of you might be children whose parents are divorcing and you feel like it's your fault even though it truly is not.

It isn't.

Some of you are feeling like you are out of control in your life and no matter what you do, there are things that seem easy to other people that you just cannot master. In fact, you might feel like these things are mastering you on a regular basis. It might be anger or food or sex, or trauma from emotional or physical abuse that you have suffered. It might be that you are single and just so lonely, wondering if you will always be alone, or if you have any reason to keep on going. You might be wrestling with shame, with debt, with eating disorders, with HIV, with cancer, with relationship issues, or with a million other things that just keep breaking you down. Maybe you've been the one in the wrong and you've hurt others and you don't think anyone cares about you now. Maybe you think you've gone too far and there's no going back. You might be religious, you might not be religious at all. You might be a Christian, an atheist, an agnostic, a Muslim, a Hindu, a Jew, or any number of other religions. We hope this will be a place for you to feel welcomed and find encouragement and even friendship with those who believe differently from you. Every daughter, every son, every tribe, and every tongue. In the spirit of Fred Rogers and the life of welcome that he lived, we want to tell you that you are welcome here. So welcome to the neighborhood. May this podcast be a place of refuge for for you. This week in the neighborhood, our subject is kindness.

Well, often on the show Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood, Fred would have a guest that would walk through the door Many times on the show, it was someone like Mr. McFeely who had a speedy delivery, and he would bring a gift, or he would bring something that he thought might be interesting to Fred Rogers. And today we have a special kind of gift that we hope will be an ongoing thing here on the show. We do have a guest that has arrived today, and so welcome to my guest. We don't have a door, a doorbell, or a door for you to knock on, but we have the internet connection. So David Dalt, welcome to the neighborhood.

I'm so glad to be here, Rick, and it feels like such an honor to be occupying the Mr. McFeely space on this conversation.

Well, I am so glad to have you. David has been a friend of mine for a while, and I want to tell you quickly about him before we get into our conversation about Fred Rogers and kindness today. David is a teacher at Loyola University in Chicago. He is also an expert at helping people tell their stories, which is something that I hope we can do together as we tell a little bit more of the story of Fred Rogers each week. He produces engaging media and podcasts for public radio. He has a show called Things Not Seen, which involves conversations about culture and faith. It's an hour-long interview show. It's wonderful. I've been a guest on it a couple of times, and I really encourage everyone to check out Things Not Seen. It airs in Chicago on WYLL 1160 AM and is distributed by PRX. He is also the executive producer and co-host of another podcast called The Francis Effect Podcast. And he is just a really great guy, a person, and a big fan of Fred Rogers, as am I. So David, I'm so glad you can be here with us to have this conversation today.

I'm thrilled to be here.

Now, what Mr. McFeely would do often, as I described on the show, is he would bring something. To Fred Rogers. And what I have asked you to do in advance is to kind of think up some conversation points about the weekly topic. And so today's topic is kindness. And I wonder what sort of gifts of conversation you might have. What's been kind of rolling around in your head as you help us to tell this story together?

Well, I was so appreciative as I was thinking about this, the invitation, first of all, to come here, but also some of the differentiations that I know that you're making in your own, in your your own monologue about the difference between what we might say niceness and kindness. And one of the things in my life that was really helpful to me was discovering that kindness is really not related to niceness. Instead, kindness is something that happens because of intention, because you're choosing to do something. And so I'd like to talk first of all with you, Rick Lee James, about intentionality, how one chooses to be kind, and the reasons why somebody might choose to be kind.

Well, please do. Let's hear some of those reasons.

Well, I mean, for me, when I was growing up, I had, I guess, the erroneous notion, the wrong-headed notion that I always had to be nice. And I felt really awkward if I ever thought that I was in a situation where somebody thought that I wasn't a nice person. And it wasn't until very late in my life that I began to realize that I'm not in my nature always a nice person, that oftentimes I can be a little edgy and gruff. And I used to really beat myself up about that. But as I reflected on it more, and Fred Rogers and his, his teachings helped me a lot with this, I realized that instead I could cultivate a sort of notion of kindness and intentionality of kindness that would, would not create in me niceness because I don't think of myself as fundamentally a nice person. But I do try every day to be a kind person., and I do try every day to treat people with respect, and I do try every day to, uh, to be a person that makes a little bit more of that kind of good in the world. But I don't, I don't think at the end of the day that that necessarily has to make me a nicer person. But I'm curious what you think about that. Do you struggle with this niceness-kindness tension in you, in your own self?

I do, and I think I often want to be such a people pleaser that it's hard for me sometimes to differentiate. But you know, one of my very favorite clips of Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood, and you can find it on YouTube, by the way. It's where Mr. Rogers gets angry at Mr. McFeely. And so, since you're kind of in that role today for our conversation, it's an interesting thing to look at because Mr. Rogers is putting a puzzle together. And then out the back door in the kitchen where Fred Rogers is putting the puzzle together, Mr. McFeely is is knocking at the door, and he's often very impatient when he arrives. And he comes in, "Speedy delivery, speedy delivery!" And Mr. Rogers is trying to finish this puzzle because he has to send it somewhere. And of course, McFeely is the delivery man. And Mr. McFeely sits down, and Fred has a few pieces left, and he's trying to get the pieces in place. But the whole time, Mr. McFeely is just egging him on, "Gotta go, gotta hurry up, you know, speedy delivery, let's go, let's go, gotta hurry, gotta hurry." And you can see in the show Fred is getting agitated and he's getting angry and he just can't get the pieces in in time. And finally, Mr. McFeely tells him, "I've got to go right now," you know, something to that extent. That's, of course, a paraphrase. And so he grabs the puzzle up, Mr. McFeely does, and Fred Rogers stands up to help him get out the door. But he tells Mr. McFeely, he says, "This makes me very angry to be so rushed like this." And it's a very interesting thing because Fred isn't necessarily being nice in that episode. I think even often on the show, we think of him as just always being kind and nice and friendly to everybody. And he's not being unkind in any way. In fact, he's letting Mr. McFeely know in probably the kindest way that he is getting angry and he doesn't like— he tells him, "I don't like being rushed this way. I don't like being pressured." And it goes on with the show and it takes it more places, but then Fred talks to the children that are watching at that point about what to do with the mad that they feel. And he starts beating on some clay and things like that. So, what's interesting to me in all that is he's letting this other person that he's angry with know that he's not pleased with them right now, but he's not being unkind. And to me, that's kind of an interesting study of something he actually did on his show to show the way that we can be kind of people, even when we maybe disagree with them, or maybe even in times that we're not liking them. Um, so what— I don't know, have you seen that episode?

I have. It's been a few years, but I'm familiar with what you're talking about. But Rick, you just said two things that I kind of want to explore more deeply. You said earlier in your answer that you consider yourself to be a people pleaser, and then towards the, the end of your answer, you talked about how Mr. Rogers was teaching children And that actually makes me think of kind of how we address this with our own children, this balance between niceness and kindness. I think that, that I see it in my children, maybe you see it in your children, that, uh, that they want to please their mom, they want to please me, they want to please other adults, they want to be people pleasers. How do we help them to understand that they don't always have to be They don't— they can get mad too, just like Mr. Rogers showed in that episode. How can we say it's appropriate sometimes to get angry? It's appropriate sometimes to not be nice, if we can use that phrase. But even when you're doing that, it sounds like— and we can see that when we watch the clip on YouTube— that Mr. Rogers, even though he was not necessarily being nice, he was feeling anger, he was still able to be kind about it. He didn't throw things at Mr. McFeely. He didn't shout at Mr. McFeely. He found other ways to take out his anger. So how can we be helping to teach our children and maybe other people's children, uh, to extend this to our listeners, how can we be helping children to understand the difference between feeling like you have to please somebody all the time and actually being able to kindly tell someone else that you're displeased or that you're angry or that you're upset?

Well, I am a big proponent of just being very honest with our children when it comes to things. Like that. I like Fred's approach of kind of being honest and teaching them to let the other person know what they're feeling. We've had some incidences this year where my son, who is 6, he was in kindergarten and he's about to go into first grade in this next year, but already had been experiencing some bullying at school. And we keep trying to tell him to be kind to people, and he just really is is having a hard time at school with this person that, you know, he keeps getting hit. The one day he got spit in the face. I mean, things you wouldn't even expect in kindergarten sometimes. And one thing that we tried to tell him was it's okay to, for one thing, tell him you don't like what's going on, and, and, but also you need to tell an adult in your life that might be able to help. And I think maybe that's helpful too for children, um, that Sometimes we need somebody else's help. And we're trying to teach our son that kindness is about looking out for the good of the other person as well, and not just only what's about what might be good for me. And I hope that makes sense in a way to him at his very young age that, that he can express that things are not making him happy, but he doesn't have to do the things that are making him unhappy back to that other person either. There, there may be a better way and a a better solution. What are your thoughts on that? You're a father as well, and I know you must have some great advice.

Well, I, I hope so. I, I've got a daughter who is 9, and I have a son who's about to be 8. And one thing that my wife Kira and I have done every day that we've dropped them off from school, and when we, when we part company with them, we give them hugs and we, we say a little something to each of them individually. So my wife will say it to my son while I'm saying it to my daughter, and then we'll switch and I'll say it to my daughter and my wife will say it to my son. And it's this little saying: Be a helper, not a herder. Be a builder, not a breaker. And above all, be kind. And we've been saying that to our kids every day for years, which means that at this point they've heard it several hundred, if not a couple thousand times. And to me, what has been helpful in that is that when, for example, a child has done behavior like the behavior that you describe, hitting or spitting, we've been able to ask, you know, my son, my daughter, do you feel like they were being a helper or do you feel like they were being a herder? Well, I feel like they were being a herder, Papa. How can you be a helper to them or how can you be kind to them in a way that might help to make that better? Is there a way that you can still fine to be a friend to them. I mean, I know that you come from a, a Christian background. I also come from a Christian background. These are values that we're trying to instill in our children, and certainly Fred Rogers, even though he wasn't explicit about it a lot of times, he definitely also came from a Christian background. The idea of seeing the best in the other person and also imagining what might be going on with that other person— I'm aware that, that there are children who come who haven't had enough to eat children who come from homes where they are yelled at or where there is violence done to them. And sometimes when they're young, they don't know how to act out or process that. And so instead, they, they themselves begin to inhabit and embody these same hurtful behaviors towards other children. We've tried to help our children understand that sometimes it might come from a place of meanness or, or, or anger on the part of the child, but also sometimes it might come from hurt or frustration on the part of the child. Now, that doesn't mean that this kid gets to beat up on my kid. That doesn't mean that. So having escape hatches, having my children be able to go to an adult and say, "I don't feel safe," that's very important and they're always encouraged to do that, but not to think that the other child is necessarily bad or mean or evil or wrong for doing that. That might be the best way that the child knows at that moment to work out what's going on inside of themselves. And that's what was so important with that lesson that Fred Rogers gave when he asked the question, "What do you do with the mad that you feel?" And he talked about pounding on a piano, or he talked about, you know, kind of beating some clay with his fists. Those are more productive ways, but he's an adult and he's figured those things out. We need to help the children in our lives to understand that these are appropriate ways to take care of their anger, because unfortunately sometimes adults around these children have shown them very inappropriate ways to deal with the mad that they feel.

Yes, you're exactly right. I think we, we do our best to do it by example and to try to show that there was something else that came out of the school year when, you know, my son came home as well after this one particular kid that was— there was some trouble with. And at some point my son just kind of made the passing comment, well, because, you know, he came in with a black eye because his dad hits him. And it was really a telling thing for us. Like you just said, often people are, especially children, they're absorbing what it is that they're being shown. And the only thing they really know to do is to show it back in the way it's been shown to them. And it really breaks your heart in those moments. And I love the way that Fred would ask this question: What would be the kindest choice? And that's really what we're focusing on here. This week. How can we make those kind choices? And even when it's difficult, because it's not easy, uh, we're definitely, you know, this podcast started partially because of Twitter, and we have over 31,000 followers on the Mr. Rogers Say Twitter account right now, and it just keeps growing every day, and I'm grateful for it. But one thing I hear again and again from people almost daily in messages is it's so nice to have a place that just feels kind and a place that doesn't feel like it's joining in with the anger and the animosity that is going around constantly on social media. And I don't know if we're making a difference or not, but I sure hope that we are helping as we think about the legacy that someone like Fred Rogers left for us. I hope that we are beginning to ask those questions What would be the kindest choice? How can we love another person well? Which is really, I think, what we're saying when we're talking about those things. How do we look to the best interests of another person? How do we get to the heart of what's making them ask those things?

Well, I would turn the question around to you, and I would say, when we think about manifesting kindness, either on Twitter, social media, or face-to-face, What are some of the things we can help listeners to know and to spot? So, I guess my question to you, Rick, would be, what would you consider to be some of the fruits of kindness? When we see kindness manifesting itself, what does that look like concretely?

Well, I wonder if we'll be able to even measure that. I've been thinking about that a little bit. I wonder if sometimes the fruit that comes from that, it might not be something we will quite be able to measure, but it might be something that in another person's life who is received the benefit of kindness, that maybe it has made all the difference in the world. I think specifically about someone like Francois Clemmons, who was on the show, and I've been thinking about him. Listeners will know that he played Officer Clemmons on the show, and he had this recurring role for years and years as Officer Clemmons. And he told NPR's podcast StoryCorps, He said, "There was one particular scene Fred and I did where he had his feet resting in this plastic pool on a hot day, and he invited me to come over and rest my feet in the water with him." And I think many of us have seen that scene. And the icon Fred Rogers not only was showing my brown skin, he says, in the tub with his white skin, but as I was getting out of that tub, he was helping me dry my feet.

I think he was making a very strong statement, Clemons added.

And he said that he discovered a friend for life in that. And that's not a social media thing, but it is a thing where obviously he had a different idea of what was happening to Black people in white swimming pools at that time. And there is something about changing the whole narrative. And coming into a person's life and being something different and being something kind. I think in many ways, having gotten to know Francois myself a little bit over the years and having him on other podcasts that I've hosted, I think it really did make a change in his life that was immeasurable. And not only just the fact that he was Black, but also that he was gay and the relationship that was developed and Fred became almost like a second father to him. And there was just so much that I think happened in his life as a result of that kindness. So we might not even always be able to see it for ourselves when it happens, but I think sometimes on things like social media, sometimes the kindness that we might be able to display— and by the way, I'm not always very good about this on my own personal social media endeavors— but I think if we can learn to do this more and to become more kind and start to ask what would be the kindest choice 'Maybe I don't send that thing out that I was thinking of sending. Maybe I can rephrase this. Maybe I can look deeper into the heart of what may be causing that person to say those things.' Some of it might be immeasurable on our end, but I hope we can make a difference in another person's life by extending that kindness and maybe even sometimes the benefit of the doubt.

I like that so much, and you hit the nail on the head. If we're looking for a reward for our kindness, something to kind of come back to us to make us know that the kindness has landed, we can't always find that, but we have to trust that if we put it out there, it's going to make a difference. And sometimes that difference will be visible, but sometimes that difference might not bear fruit for a season or two seasons, or maybe we'll never get a chance to see the fruit that it bears, but we have to trust that it's there.

Well, David, this has been wonderful to have you on this first episode today, and we're about to go to the next section of the show. But I hope that we can do this again and again. And I wanted to let listeners know that our plan, at least at this point, is to have 9 episodes in season 1 of Welcome to the Neighborhood. And we're going to hopefully have conversations like this every time that we come together to record. And this first week is about kindness. Each week will be a different topic that Fred displayed for us. But for now, we're going to say goodbye, and I want to thank you for stopping Bye with your— I'm not going to call it a speedy delivery, but I am going to call it a special delivery today.

Rick Lee James, it's an absolute pleasure to be with you. I look forward to being back. Thank you again.

There is a subtle but vast difference between being kind and being nice. Many people confuse being nice with being kind, but they are very different different things. Being nice can be a form of narcissism. If I'm nice to you, maybe you can be nice to me and give me validation. This might be happening subconsciously, but all the same, being nice can be all about me and what I can get. Going a bit further with the deceptiveness of being nice, niceness can be a form Cruelty. The southern part of the United States has a reputation for being nice, but that niceness can actually be a kind of meanness in disguise. You know what I'm talking about. Someone might say something like, "Oh honey, I'm so worried about you. Are you okay? You look just terrible." "Well, congratulations! I didn't expect you to get that job." Or maybe even, "I wish I could be more like you. I just love the way that you don't care about the way you look." Nice isn't always so nice, is it? Kindness, on the other hand, reveals itself in a person who is good to others with no strings attached. Kindness, translated from the Greek word philanthropia, can be translated as "friend of mankind." or lover of humanity. A kind person is a person who warmly loves others, treating them with respect. Kindness is a kind of benevolence that sees every being as one who is created in the image of God. Well, Fred Rogers was almost a kindness evangelist. One of his most famous quotes is, "There are 3 ways to ultimate success. The first way is to be kind, The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. Fred Rogers truly taught us to be lovers of all people and creatures everywhere, not just people like us. Rogers donated to several charities throughout his life, but one of his favorites was called the Humankindness Foundation. The Humankindness Foundation supported a prison ministry, which was in effect a religious commune where volunteers lived and worked with ex-offenders to help them complete their parole requirements. Fred Rogers deeply valued this ministry and on occasion sought the ministry's advice on how best to deal with the problem of children who were affected by prison culture. When Fred heard of an 8-year-old who said he wanted to go to jail because, quote, "you get 3 hots and a cot," he contacted the leader of the Humankindness Foundation to see about about the possibility of broadcasting a public service announcement designed to subvert the influence of prison culture on children. L'Arc Daybreak community in Canada was another favorite charity of Fred Rogers. Fred's good friend, Henri Nouwen, had moved there after leaving a prestigious teaching position at Harvard University. Daybreak is a community where people with intellectual disabilities live, work, and learn with volunteers and staff members. Fred loved Daybreak's celebration of the lives of those with intellectual disabilities and visited the community while Henry Nowen was still living and working there. If you search the Fred Rogers Archives, you will find some touching pictures of Fred at the Daybreak community, members enjoying each other's company. These were just a couple of the examples of kindness in Fred Rogers' life. When he would show kindness to others, and he would do it when there was no benefit to him in doing so. While watching an episode of Mister Rogers' Neighborhood recently with my son, I was taken by the way that Fred was introducing the Land of Make Believe segment of the show. He was describing a situation in the Land of Make Believe where someone was not being very nice and was hurting others. In talking with his television neighbor, Fred was asking the viewer to consider ways that we might deal with this person in the land of make-believe, and he summed up his philosophy of how he personally dealt with others with this one question: What would be the kindest choice? What would be the kindest choice? Isn't that a wonderful question for us to ask every day and in every situation? Fred Rogers was innovative in so many ways, helping us to grow up to become people who would do our very best to make the kindest choices in our lives. In an age when social media dominates our lives, we don't always seem to make the kindest choices, do we? Social media platforms like Twitter and Facebook can be very superficial places can't they? Social media can be a wonderful place for us to keep in touch with people we love, but it can also be incredibly harmful, too. Even though we try to present our best selves online when it comes to issues we care about or matters that we disagree with, we often allow the worst of ourselves to show, don't we? I wonder if we could imagine a world together where we daily ask ourselves the question Fred Rogers asked: What would be the kindest choice? Fred Rogers said in a book he wrote called The World According to Mister Rogers: Important Things to Remember, Mutual caring relationships require kindness and patience, tolerance, optimism, joy in the other's achievements, confidence in oneself and the ability to give without undue thought of gain. In 2002, Fred gave a commencement address at Dartmouth College, and he encouraged all who were listening to be kinder and more loving people. It was in this speech that he famously said, "When I say it's you I like, I'm talking about that part of you that knows that life is far more than anything you can ever see, see or hear or touch. That deep part of you that allows you to stand for those things without which humankind cannot survive: love that conquers hate, peace that rises triumphant over war, and justice that proves more powerful than greed. Fred Rogers was a Presbyterian minister, and his view of God was shaped in his view of the world. I believe Fred would agree with ethicist Stanley Hauerwas, who once wrote, "I believe that kindness is the very character of God." Because Fred believed this about his God, he also believed that he should live out a life of kindness. When Rogers encouraged children to be kinder and more loving, he believed that he was nurturing the most important part of a human being, the part that exhibits a divine spark. Fred believed that appreciation of other people is a holy thing and once said, "When we look for what's best in the person we happen to be with at the moment, we're doing what God does." So, in appreciation of our neighbor, we're participating in something truly sacred. Now, that's what Fred Rogers believed. It's what shaped him into being the champion of kindness that he was. That being said, even if you don't believe like Fred did, or worship the way that Fred did, it didn't matter to him, because he still chose to see the divine spark inside of every person he encountered, and he chose to treat them with kindness. Is there anyone in life to whom you have trouble showing kindness? Well, you don't have to be Fred Rogers, a Christian, a minister, or a host of a children's show to be a person who chooses to be kind. You just have to be yourself, the person you were created to be. Maybe for you, kindness will look different than it did in Fred. After all, there's no one else in the world exactly like you, and the greatest gift you can ever give is your honest self. So, looking deeply into yourself today, the situations you know already that you will be facing and the situations that will yet arise, what if you approached each new day with this simple question that was asked by Fred to his television neighbor? What would be the kindest choice?

I'm very much interested in choices and what it is and who it is that enable us human beings to make the choices we make all through our lives. What choices lead to ethnic cleansing? What choices lead lead to healing? What choices lead to the destruction of the environment, the erosion of the Sabbath, suicide bombings, or teenagers shooting teachers? What choices encourage heroism in the midst of chaos? I have a lot of framed things in my office which people have given to me through the years, and on my walls are Greek and Hebrew and Russian and Chinese. And beside my chair is a French sentence from Saint-Exupéry's Little Prince. It reads: L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux. What is essential is invisible to the eye. Well, what is essential about you, and who are those who have helped you become the person you are?

Thank you for joining us here this week in the neighborhood. Music featured on today's podcast was Nouvelle Noel by Kevin MacLeod, and all other music was by Benjamin Tossett at Bensound.com. That's B-E-N-S-O-U-N-D www.rickleejames.com. Special thanks to my guest, David Dalt. And I also want to thank the @MrRogersSay community on Twitter. Thank you for being there every single day. I'm your host, Rick Lee James. My Twitter account is @RickLeeJames. My website is rickleejames.com. My other podcast is Voices in My Head: The Rick Lee James Podcast. And I look forward to being with you again next time. Until then, remember, you make each day a special day.

You know how? By just being you.

There is only one person in this whole world like you, and people can like you exactly as you are.