Episode Seven: The Gentleness of Fred Rogers
In this episode of the "Welcome to the Neighborhood" podcast, host Rick Lee James welcomes back his regular guest David Dalt, a Loyola University professor and public media producer. The conversation centers on the theme of gentleness, especially as embodied by Fred Rogers. They explore why gentleness is often seen as incompatible with masculinity, citing cultural conditioning that pushes men toward toughness. Rick shares a Fred Rogers quote about strength, arguing that true strength is often mistaken for aggression, and that gentleness requires its own form of strength. The dialogue uses analogies from ballet, figure skating, and superhero comics (Thor, Superman) to illustrate the idea of controlled power. David describes a parenting rule in his household—asking permission before any physical touch—to model gentle interaction. The episode then delves into historical material, recounting Rogers' 1969 testimony before the U.S. Senate Subcommittee on Communications, where he advocated for public‑television funding before Senator John Pastore, demonstrating gentle yet persuasive advocacy. Rick also discusses the Greek New‑Testament terms prautasei and epi‑ikē‑ā, linking them to meekness as controlled power, and references his own writing on meekness using Superman as an example. The conversation ties these ideas to contemporary relevance, noting the upcoming Fred Rogers biopic starring Tom Hanks, Rick’s own music project "Thunder," and the supportive @MrRogersSay Twitter community. The episode concludes with a call for more gentle voices in today’s polarized media landscape.
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Welcome to The Neighborhood, a Mr. Rogers tribute podcast. I'm your host, Rick Lee James, of rickleejames.com, and I run the Mr. Rogers Quotes Twitter account found @MrRogersSay. As we again walk into this podcast neighborhood, we want you to know that no matter where you are from, you are welcome here. I am glad to be your neighbor. Every daughter, every son, every tribe, and every tongue, in the spirit of Fred Rogers and the life of welcome that he lived, welcome to the neighborhood. This week in the neighborhood, our subject is gentleness.
Well, it's good to welcome back the Mr. McFeely of our show, David Dalt. I call him that because he is always delivering good conversation for us and helping us to think. David Dalt is a teacher at Loyola University in Chicago, and he is an expert at helping people tell their stories. He produces engaging, innovative media for public radio, public television, and public events, and he is the executive producer and host of Things Not Seen: Conversations About Culture and Faith, which airs weekly in Chicago on WYFF. KLL 1160 AM and is distributed by PRX. David is also the executive producer of The Francis Effect podcast. David Dahl, welcome back. Well, I almost said welcome back to Voices in My Head, but that's the wrong podcast. That's the other one I do. What I meant to say is welcome to the neighborhood.
Rick, I'm so glad to be here as always. It's great to hear your voice.
Well, it's great to talk to you, and listeners may notice just by even my stumbling over words as we begin today. It's been, I think, kind of a crazy day for me and you as well. We've been very busy. But how are things going for you?
Things are going well. As you mentioned, they are very busy. We're in the midst of the middle of the semester at Loyola, and so there's a lot of teaching and grading. But then, just like with you, there are a lot of extracurricular projects around school. And so not only the podcasts, but also writing and a little bit of travel coming up. And so a lot on my plate, but I'm I'm feeling blessed to have good work to do and good people to do the work with. How are things with you?
Very good and very busy as well. And I'm excited because we have actually a Fred Rogers-related thing happening later this week. It won't come out on this podcast until a few weeks down the road. But you know, there's a new movie coming out about Fred Rogers that Tom Hanks is starring in. And I have been working kind of behind the scenes with Sony Pictures to present a a very special podcast to you in the coming days. And I'm not going to spill the beans quite yet as to who our guest is, but I am very excited about a guest I'm going to be recording later this week. And as we move closer to the release of that movie, I'm going to get to share that conversation here on the show. So that's just kind of a teaser for everybody of something that we have coming up. And also, just personally, I think most of our listeners know I'm a musician, and the day after this podcast airs that we're recording right. Now on Tuesday, October 8th, I have a new radio special called Thunder that's going to be going out to radio stations nationally and a few international stations as well. So I'm very excited about that radio show that's going to be a sort of documentary-style feature about my newest album Thunder. So, so very, very busy on, on my end here.
So, well, congratulations with all of that. And while listeners are waiting to hear about your announcement with regard to the movie and, and, uh, something special that you're cooking up on that front. If they're wanting something to fill the gap, uh, on Things Not Seen, I just got done interviewing Shea Tuttle, who's, uh, the author of a new book about the faith of Mr. Rogers called Exactly As You Are, and it's a wonderful book, and we had a very good conversation. So folks can check that out on my show Things Not Seen.
Well, I am really excited to hear that, and I can't wait to read that book. And, um, you, you always makes such wonderful podcasts and really great programs. And as always, I want to encourage people to check out the podcast page for Welcome to the Neighborhood, which you can find at fredrogerspodcast.com, and you can find out more about all of the great things that David is doing. And I can't wait to hear that conversation. So David, today's topic is gentleness, and I wonder what we could have a discussion about today on the topic of gentleness. Gentleness. It is a huge one, and it certainly is something that I think most people associate with Fred Rogers when they think about him.
Well, one of the things that came to mind when I started thinking about this topic, Rick, was how hard it is for men in our culture to be gentle. We are taught from a very young age that we are to be tough, we're not to show emotion, And I see it happen with my own son. I see my son get into a funk or get into some point where he starts to well up with tears, and there's a reflex in me that wants me to harden him and to get him tough. And I have to work against all of that programming. And it's not even— it's not anything that I want to do, but it arises in me sometimes. And I wonder why it is that it's so difficult for us to have men be gentle in our culture, and I wonder if you have any thoughts about that.
Well, you know, I don't know if I could add a lot to the conversation more than what Fred had said, and I actually have a quote that is conveniently here in front of me right now that might have something to do with this conversation. It's actually talking about strength, but it also has to do with gentleness, even though the word is not used in the quote. Fred Rogers said, most of us, I believe, admire strength.
It's something we tend to respect in others, desire for ourselves, and wish for our children.
Sometimes though, I wonder if we confuse strength with other words like aggression and even violence.
Real strength is neither male nor female, but it is quite simply one of the finest characteristics that any human being can possess.
And I, I just wonder if adding on a little bit to what Fred says in that quote there, maybe we do tend to confuse strength with things like aggression and violence. And maybe if we think we're being gentle, which really gentle is not a word that means you can't be strong. Actually, it takes a lot of strength to be gentle, I think, and maybe even more strength to be gentle. But I do think that there is a real problem with confusing those things in our society. I mean, we see it everywhere from the things that we read and shows that we watch on television to even movies. We really do seem to admire aggression and violence. If that wasn't the case, we wouldn't have so many action movies that are so popular right now. And yet, how many movies or media that we consume, how many of those type things really aim at males that it's okay to be gentle and that that is actually something that we should value.
You know, Rick, as you were talking just then, the images that came into my mind were of figure skaters and ballet dancers. And I think about a ballet dancer who can lift his leg so high and then bring it down to the ground with the lightest touch and make it look so effortless. But how much strength and control and training that takes. And so when you said that Being gentle actually takes a lot of strength. That was what came into my mind. The, the fluidity and the grace is not a matter of random motion. It's a matter of discipline and control and tremendous, tremendous, tremendous time spent building up muscles and the ability to be strong. But with that strength comes these light touches and these beautiful movements. And to me, I think that's what we're talking about. And It gets back to something that I've said often about Fred Rogers on this show, and that is he spent a lot of time disciplining himself to be kind and to be temperate and to be even in his demeanor with people. But that doesn't mean that he never got angry, and that doesn't mean that he did not have a quiet strength, but it was a strength nonetheless, wasn't it?
Yes, definitely. And again, I feel like we could just fill volumes with his example of being so disciplined and having so much strength in that regard. And yet I think in his time, you know, Fred Rogers was, was almost mocked. He was mocked, you know, by people who were considered to be the tough guys of our society, and his gentleness was not seen to be cool. But I think as time has gone by and we've seen maybe that the boastfulness of people is not so attractive after all, I think we're seeing all the time how truly appealing a this controlled, what I would call not just gentleness but meekness, as we're going to hear later in the show, this controlled strength, this controlled power even, is really something that is so valuable. And Fred, you're right, he just exhibited that in so many ways, whether it was his discipline to write back every letter like we talked about last week, or his time that he spent swimming every day, or the time that he dedicated to Spending time in prayer each morning early when he woke up, or even his rigid bedtime. He made sure he was in bed pretty early every night. But he was a person of great strength in that regard. I think that it's much easier to be lazy and not have those routines, but he was so productive and had so much output because of that and because of the way that he was sort of rigid in his rigid in his gentleness. I don't know if that's the best way to put it or not.
Well, it makes me think, Rick, of— there's a cartoon that goes around every once in a while on the internet, on Facebook and on Twitter, and those that are younger may know the comic book character from Marvel, the Mighty Thor, and he carries a hammer and he's very, very strong. And in the movies they joke about how he's always boasting how he's the strongest of the superhero team that he's on. But in this particular cartoon His hammer is sitting on the ground and Mr. Rogers walks by and picks it up. And the thing about the hammer is that it can be wielded only by those who are worthy. And usually the story is that, you know, Thor is worthy because he's so strong and he's so valiant of a warrior. But in the conversation that ensues between Mr. Rogers and the mighty Thor, Thor comes to understand that it's not simply physical strength, but also maturity, emotional strength, those kinds of things that also make a person strong. And that just struck me speaks to exactly what we're trying to say is we so often mistake physical strength for true strength, where restraint, discipline, and the ability to control oneself can be as much or more of an example of true strength and masculinity in many ways than sometimes we're told by our culture.
Yeah, that's, that's very true. And I, I do remember that cartoon. I'm going to have to look that one up again because it has been shared several times, and especially on the the @MrRogersSay Twitter account. That is, that has come up more than once or twice for sure. People share that all the time. But I really like your analogy on that, and thank you for that, David. Well, there is a lot to think about when we think about the gentleness of Fred Rogers, and it may have been one of his defining characteristics. I think all of us would agree when we watch his show, he comes across as a very gentle person. But again, that does not mean weak, and it does not necessarily— it does not at all mean that a person is lacking in anything. We just— I really admire that about Fred, and I admire that about friends that I have and people that I see. And, you know, we talked about being parents here a few moments ago too. Do you ever have trouble, David, being gentle with your children in the sense that when you get frustrated? For me, sometimes— I don't like this about myself— but sometimes I feel like I snap too soon and I'm not as gentle as I should be with my son.
Do you ever struggle with that?
Yes, I do. And as our children have grown, we have instituted in our home a rule that no one touches anyone else without asking permission first. And that, that means no violent touching, certainly, but also that means that I don't reach out and hug my children without asking them first. And there's reasons why we do that, but one of the reasons why is exactly what you're saying, because in our culture it is possible to become physical too fast. Before you think about it. And we have tried in our house to slow that down, both amongst the children but also from parents to children, to make sure that we're taking time to use our words first before we intervene with a sort of a hot temper. And that was a hard-learned lesson for us, but it has been one that has paid off in our household. And it's not for everybody. I mean, I tell some people that I don't hug my children without asking them first. And getting their permission to touch them, and they look at me funny. But there are reasons why we do that in our household, and for our household it works for us. It may not work for everyone, but yes, it is absolutely something that we have thought about, that we have struggled with, and that I as a parent have struggled with because, because of my background, Rick, and because I was raised in a household where violence was the first option, there are reflexes in me that I am trying desperately to unlearn and to undo. And until I know that that wiring is gone, I want to make sure that I have everything working for all the people in my family to make sure that everyone feels safe at every moment.
Yes.
Well, I admire that. That's actually not a bad idea at all, and I had not really even thought about that before, but I really like that idea of asking permission, and I think that really would go a long way in helping our children understand that they're— that that touch is a sacred thing, you know, and it is something that can be used in very good ways, and it also helps us to teach them to protect them from bad touch as well. So I appreciate what you have shared today and the gentle spirit that you bring when you bring those kind of words to us. And you know what? Speaking of good and gentle spirits, we have had quite a few people on Twitter over the last few weeks that have given us some really wonderful comments, haven't we?
Yes, we have, and, and have shared with us that they're listening and that what we're saying is meaningful to them. I just want to say how thankful I am, first, that people are listening, but that we have the opportunity to do some good in a media landscape, Rick, that you've said this before, oftentimes is so negative and so toxic. It's nice to be able to say something good and have it echo out into the world and have it sort of touch the hearts of people that need to hear it.
And then the way that we get to receive that back when people are so good to respond to what we've presented, it feels like such a wonderful circle to be a part of. And I do feel like the community that is forming around this podcast and the Twitter feed and so many of us that have been communicating together, I just appreciate it so much. Well, is there anything else that we missed today in our conversation before we move to the next part? Part of our show, David.
No, I think that we've covered a lot of the ground of gentleness, but as always, Rick, I'm just so glad to get a chance to talk to you.
Well, it's always very good to visit with you, and I'm glad that you had the chance to stop by again today in our very busy and hectic lives. But listeners, stay tuned because we have much more of the show to go, and this is an episode I am really excited about. So let's continue in with the topic of gentleness as we look a little deeper at the gentleness of Fred Rogers.
There are two Greek words in the New Testament that are so closely defined that you could swap one out for the other without significantly changing their meaning. One word is prautasei, and the other is epi-ikē-ā. Depending on who is translating the words into English, they might be read as gentleness or they might be read as meekness. By the way, disclaimer, I'm not sure if I pronounced those words correctly. When I think about Fred Rogers, I think about the word gentleness and the way that it could also be translated as meekness. Meekness is not weakness. Meekness meekness can actually be better described as controlled power. A few years ago, I wrote a book called Out of the Depths: A Songwriter's Journey Through the Psalms. In one section of that book, I describe the meaning of the word meekness using the character of one of my favorite superheroes, Superman. And it may be helpful to us as we think more in depth about the gentle meekness of Fred Rogers. I now will quote myself: A meek person isn't weak. A meek person is someone who controls their power. Superman seemingly has infinite strength, but he refuses to hit enemies with all the power that he has because he knows it could kill or seriously injure them. He holds back for the good of his enemies. He uses his power to stop their violence, and he refuses to let innocents suffer, but he also refuses to use deadly force. I get that he's a comic book character aimed at children, but isn't that something that as believers we would want to instill in our children? You see, there was a gentle fierceness about Fred Rogers. He was gentle, controlled power personified. When it came to his advocacy for children, he was as firmly rooted as an ancient tree that is planted by the water. He cared enough about his television neighbors to speak with them plainly openly, honestly, and gently about many of the very difficult things in life that others might shy away from. He spoke to children about the death of a pet, assassination, broken marriages and divorce, bigotry, anxiety, war, what to do with our anger, and disappointment.
Discipline.
He even dealt with the difficult subject of babies being born, showing graphic video of a cat giving birth. I've seen that episode, and it's not for the squeamish. But Mr. Rogers didn't shy away from the way things are, and he didn't shy away from talking to children about difficult things. On the topic of gentle embracing and the way that Fred Rogers would gently embrace difficult things. Rogers once said, "The world is not always a kind place. That's something all children learn for themselves, whether we want them to or not, but it's something they really need our help to understand." Mr. Rogers certainly wasn't afraid to talk about difficult topics, and as a reporter once said about him, him, Mr. Rogers was softer than anyone else in children's TV because so many of the messages he had to impart were harder. That your parents might someday decide not to live together anymore. That dogs and guppies and people all someday die. That sometimes you will feel ashamed and other times you will be so mad that you will want to bite someone. Maybe it takes a gentle person, someone who knows how to control their power, to help us come to grips with the fact that life can be difficult and none of us are as strong as we think we are. In spite of the gentleness of Fred's message, which was packaged in comfy shoes and fuzzy sweaters, Fred Rogers had a remarkable will. In fact, the very first week that Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood went on the air, Rogers took direct aim at the Vietnam War and the unneighborliness of building walls to keep change from happening in our neighborhoods. In his gentle way, he showed his television neighbors that strength doesn't come from holding on to power as tightly as we can,, but that true strength is exhibited in having the courage to love others well. On May 1, 1969, we can see the gentle courage of Fred Rogers on display as he addressed the U.S. Senate Subcommittee on Communications to argue that $20 million in funding for public television should not be cut. He was nervous, and his wife Joanne tells us that she could hear that in his voice as it shook. But being brave doesn't mean being fearless. Being brave means being afraid, but doing what must be done anyway. In his gentle, meek way, with a shaking voice, Mr. Rogers faced off with a very unfriendly Senate. Sitting in front of him was Senator John Pastore, the chairman of the subcommittee, who had a reputation for being a tough guy. Fred Rogers didn't waste time talking about budgets and funding and other minutiae that he could have talked about when it came to a speech on funding. Instead, instead, he talked about his show and what he was trying to accomplish with it. When facing the brash senator, he used simple sentences and simple words to get his point across. His strength was in his meekness and his gentleness, winning his would-be opponent over, not by matching the senator's rudeness with more animosity, but by sharing from his heart turning an enemy ultimately into a friend. It's a little more lengthy than what I usually share here on this podcast, but I really want us to hear the gentle fierceness of Mr. Rogers in action. Let's listen right now to that hearing in the Senate from 1969.
All right, Rogers, you got the floor.
May I use this? Senator Pastore, this is a philosophical statement and would take about 10 minutes to read, so I'll not do that. Uh, one of the first things that a child learns in a healthy family is trust, and I trust what you who have said that you will read this. It's very important to me. I care deeply about children. My first children's—
Will it make you happy if you read it?
I'd just like to talk about it, if it's all right.
All right, sir.
My first children's program was on WQED 15 years ago, and its budget was $30. Now, with the help of the Sears Roebuck Foundation and National Educational Television, as well as all of the affiliated stations. Each station pays to show our program. It's a unique kind of funding in educational television. With this help, now our program has a budget of $6,000. It may sound like quite a difference, but $6,000 pays for less than 2 minutes of cartoons. 2 minutes of animated— what I sometimes say— bombardment. I'm very much concerned, as I know you are, about what's being delivered to our children in this country. And I've worked in the field of child development for 6 years now, trying to understand the inner needs of children. We deal with such things as, as the inner drama of childhood. We don't have to bop somebody over the head to make him— to, to make drama on the screen. We deal with such things as getting a haircut, or the feelings about brothers and sisters, and the kind of anger that arises in simple family situations. And we speak to it constructively.
How long a program is it?
It's a half hour every day. Most channels schedule it in the noontime as well as in the evening. WETA here has scheduled it in the late afternoon.
Could we get a copy of this so that we can see it? Maybe not today, but I'd like to see the program.
I'd like very much for you to see it.
I'd like to see the program itself, or any one of them, you see.
We made 100 programs for EEN, the Eastern Educational Network, and then when the money ran out, people in Boston Washington and Pittsburgh and Chicago all came to the fore and said, "We've got to have more of this neighborhood expression of care." And this is what— this is what I give. I give an expression of care every day to each child to help him realize that he is unique. I end the program by saying, "You've made this day a special day." By just your being you. There's no person in the whole world like you, and I like you just the way you are. And I feel that if we in public television can only make it clear that feelings are mentionable and manageable, we will have done a great service for mental health. Uh, I think that it's much more dramatic that two men could be working out their feelings of anger, much more dramatic than showing something of gunfire. I'm constantly concerned about what our children are seeing, and for 15 years I have tried in this country and Canada to present what I feel is a meaning a meaningful expression of care.
Do you narrate it?
I'm the host, yes. And I do all the puppets, and I write all the music, and I write all the scripts.
Well, I'm supposed to be a pretty tough guy, and this is the first time I've had goosebumps for the last 2 days.
Well, I'm grateful, not only for your goosebumps, but for your interest in our kind of communication. Could I tell you the words of one of the songs which I feel is very important?
Yes.
This has to do with that good feeling of control which I feel that children need to know is there. And it starts out, "What do you do with the mad that you feel?" And that first line came straight from a child. I work with children doing puppets in in very personal communication with small groups. What do you do with the mad that you feel? When you feel so mad you could bite? When the whole wide world seems oh so wrong and nothing you do seems very right? What do you do? Do you punch a bag? Do you pound some clay or some dough? Do you round up friends for a game of tag see how fast you go. It's great to be able to stop when you've planned a thing that's wrong and be able to do something else instead. And think this song: I can stop when I want to, can stop when I wish, can stop, stop, stop anytime. And what a good feeling to feel like this and know that the feeling is is really mine. Know that there's something deep inside that helps us become what we can. For a girl can be someday a lady, and a boy can be someday a man.
I think it's wonderful. I think it's wonderful. Looks like you just earned the $20 million.
In the documentary "Won't You Be My Neighbor," Morgan Neville reveals that Senator Pastore and Fred Rogers became friends that day, and that they remained friends long after that hearing. After that day in the Senate, Rogers and Pastore started a correspondence that lasted for years, writing letters to each other each other and sharing a genuine connection. If that isn't an example of the gentle, transformative power of loving our enemies, then I don't know what could convince you. We could really use more gentle voices of strength in our world today. With the nastiness of social media, the us versus them way that we deem dehumanize each other, and the incivility of public discourse from our leaders to our people, we need Mr. Rogers more than ever. But here's the thing. Because I run the @MrRogersSay Twitter account, I see people every day saying things like, "We sure do need Mr. Rogers right now," "Boy, I wish Mr. Rogers was still alive." I understand that sentiment, and I wish he were with us just as much as anyone else. I really would have liked to have met him. But even if he was here today, we shouldn't expect him to be the answer to our problems. What Fred Rogers did was model for us the way that gentle meekness, controlled power, can change the world. I think he hoped that we would learn to live as neighbors. I don't think it's enough to say he would know what to do, because the fact is he showed us what to do, and he wanted us to do it. And in my opinion, in. He lived his life well. He set the example. He showed us how to do it, and now we need to do it. Won't you be my neighbor? Thank you for joining us here this week in the neighborhood. Music featured on the podcast MUSIC by Benjamin Tossett at bensound.com. Special thanks to my guest, David Dalton, and the @MrRogersSay community on Twitter.
I'm your host, Rick Lee James.
My Twitter account is @RickLeeJames. My website is rickleejames.com. My other podcast is Voices in My Head The Rick Lee James Podcast, and I look forward to being with you again next time. Until then, remember, you make each day a special day.
You know how?
By just your being you. There's only one person in this whole world like you, and people can like you exactly as you are.
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