Episode Two: The Joy of Fred Rogers

Welcome to the Neighborhood, a Mr. Rogers tribute podcast. I'm your host, Rick Lee James, of rickleejames.com, and I run the Mr. Rogers Quotes Twitter account found @MrRogersSay. As we venture once again into this podcast neighborhood, we want you to know that no matter where you are coming from, as you listen, we want this to be a safe place for you. We know that those of you who listen are coming from all walks of life, and we want you to know that you are welcome here. Every daughter, every son, every tribe, and every tongue. In the spirit of Fred Rogers and the life of welcome that he lived, we want to tell you that you are welcome here. So welcome to the neighborhood. May this podcast be a place of refuge for you. This Week in the Neighborhood. Our subject is joy.

Well, it's good to welcome back the Mr. McFeely of our show, David Dull. David is a teacher at Loyola University in Chicago, and he's an expert at helping people tell their stories. He produces engaging and innovative media for public radio, public television, and public events. He is the executive producer and host of Things Not Seen: Conversations About Culture and Faith, which airs weekly in Chicago on WYLL 1160 AM and is distributed by PRX. And he's also the executive producer of The Francis Effect podcast. I call him the Mr. McFeely of our program because he always brings something new and interesting to our program that makes us think. So welcome back, David.

Rick, I'm so glad to be here. It's good to be with you again.

Well, I am full of joy at your being here today, and I know joy is our topic, and you've prepared some good conversation points for us to have as we begin talking about the joy that we see exhibited through the life of Fred Rogers. So what do you have for us today?

Well, I was thinking when you told me that the topic was joy about the way in which my own life I've interacted with joy, and we tend to think of joy as being an always positive thing in someone's life. But I, I, I'm going to be honest with you and with our listeners. I, for most of my life, have suffered from a type of clinical depression, and I have had to be careful in the same way that someone who has a tendency towards migraines might have to be careful about a certain type of smell or bright light or other triggers. I've had to be careful about strong emotions because sometimes in my life, hearing a really beautiful song that stirs me or looking at a really beautiful piece of art or watching a movie that's either very very happy or very sad, these strong emotions can sometimes trigger a bout of clinical depression in me. For that reason, for most of my life, I've had to be careful with joy. And I imagine I'm not the only one among our listeners for whom that might be the case. And so even though I love joy and I enjoy joy, I also have had to be careful about joy through my life. And I wonder, Rick, when I tell you that and when I'm honest with you about that, how does that make you feel and what what does that make you think?

Well, that's actually something I had not thought about a lot before until you had mentioned it. And just, you know, viewers— viewers, listeners will, will need to know that David kind of sends me these things to think about in advance. And I've been thinking about it for a couple days now, and I don't know that I have ever interacted with joy in that way. At least I hadn't thought about it. But then As I got thinking about what I do for my living, I play music and I do concerts and I make albums. And, and of course, you and I both have written books and, and, and are making podcasts. And there's something interesting about the art that we make, and we put so much into it. And that is part of the joyful process, because finding our identity and living out our identity is much about joy. But have you ever noticed that often when you will release that thing into the world, that's when the depression comes. And your source of joy can also— at least for me, um, say on a release date, for instance, when my last album Thunder came out, um, or anything that I've ever released, you have all this buildup to a point where I don't know what we expect, but then it releases into the world and this thing we've worked so hard on, um, you don't always get feedback right away. You wonder, did people like it? Do they know it's there? And sometimes it's kind of a lonely place, and this source of joy can actually trigger depression in me. And I think that's why artists and people who are creative, um, they're often on these peaks and valleys when it comes to emotions anyway, which we can talk about whether or not that's actually joy or whether that's an emotion that we're feeling. But I, but I do find it fascinating to think through those things and to think that those things that can be a great source of joy can actually be a source of depression. And I don't know if that's exactly what you're talking about that you experience with your condition, but it has certainly made me think much more deeply on the subject.

Well, I think that it's in the same ballpark as what I'm talking about because you're describing a strong investment of emotion. Like, you, you gear up towards something, and there's— even if, even if it's just an emotion of expectation, that when that emotion wave crashes there's, there's kind of in the same way if you're standing on the side of a shoreline, there's the crash of the wave and then there's when the wave pulls back with not quite the same force as the crash, but that pullback is part of what I'm talking about. The crash of joy or the crash of expectation can cause that backlash, that pullback, and that's what I've always had to be careful of. When I talk about this with my wife and with my children, I talk about it sometimes like almost an invisible trapdoor opening up under me. And when I feel something very strongly in a positive way, I have to be careful because if that trapdoor swings open and I step in the wrong direction, I can sometimes feel myself pulled down by this, by this back pressure that comes at the end of the emotion. And so I think that that's similar to what you're talking about. But one of the things that that makes me think about is where do we locate joy? Is joy something inside of us or is joy something dependent on something outside of us. You talked about the feedback that you sometimes get or fail to get as being a factor in whether or not you feel this kind of depressive aftereffect. Is joy externally located or is it inside of us, Rick?

Hmm, that's interesting. And I'm gonna— as we talk about this, let's think about Fred Rogers for a moment too, a person that I think we would probably all agree is a person that exhibits a lot of joy.

Yes.

And as I've read about his life, and even as you watch him on the show, I wonder if it can't be a little bit of both. Because I think that part of the joy that he exhibited, and we could see in the show, is he would have this great amount of joy, um, at the people that he invested in. For one thing, uh, you just think about the neighbors that would drop by in the neighborhood on the show, and it always seemed like he was really invested in listening to them, and he was interested in what they were interested in. And I always wondered, like, is he really interested in this, or is he interested in this because they are so interested in this? And I think that for Fred, the more I read about him, we can see a person that really found a source of joy in finding that he was secure in his own identity. First of all, he was someone who learned that he was gifted to work with children. He was gifted to work with families and to help other people truly find their— where they were in this world and to be loved as they were.

And that seemed to—

when he discovered who he was internally, helped him to help other people find that. And that seemed to give him a great joy that came from others, which was an external source. So it's, it's an interesting thing to ponder because I do think there It could be a both/and answer. What do you think of that?

Well, it's interesting to me, as you were sending me information to think about this episode, one of the things that you highlighted, and I believe you'll talk about this also in your monologue, is that Fred Rogers built joyous habits into his day. And so, for example, he would reinforce every day some positivity before he would jump into the pool to swim at 7 in the morning. He would hum a little Tese tune called Jubilate Deo, or rejoice in God. And that, I mean, that makes me think that, you know, joy to some extent is internal, but joy also can be aided by the habits that we have, by the rituals that we build into our day. And you and I may know people like this, and in fact sometimes I've been guilty of this myself, where I will sometimes build habits of negativity into myself. So I'll be working on a project and I'll tell myself, oh, I'm really not ready for this, I'm not good at this, and I'll reinforce negativity. One of the things that really strikes me about Fred Rogers is how much he reinforced positivity, both to himself but also to others. He made a habit of joy. Do you see that as well?

Yes, I do, and I do think that his focus on others was a great source of joy. And I've been thinking about this a bit too. I think the more that we focus on ourselves and focus on especially negativity around around ourselves. We may not associate this always with narcissism, but I think sometimes our focus upon ourselves, even if it's bad thoughts about ourselves and habits of negativity, that can be a form of narcissism too, because we're always thinking about us and how the world affects us. And, and we almost are obsessed with me, me, me. And I do think that a great source of joy in our life is when we can cultivate some of those positive habits. And, and yes, you're right, later on in the show I am going to be talking about that. Um, but there is something about seeking that also outside of ourselves and being less focused on me and more focused on those who are around us that can be such a help, I think, to get us out of those negative feelings. So often we can be so hard upon ourselves and judge ourselves at a level that we don't judge anybody else in the world. By. And, um, and that can be a very difficult, very painful thing. And yet when you think about choosing to see the best in others and helping them to succeed, um, there— I think Fred would show us again and again that one of the purest sources of joy and places that we can find joy is helping someone else succeed, even if we don't get anything from that.

You know, it's so interesting. I was having a conversation a few days ago with the author David Dark, and he teaches at Belmont University in Nashville, and he has a PhD in religion, and he thinks a lot and writes a lot about the religiosity in America. And we were talking about exactly this, and he said that he struggled with the notion of loving others as you love yourself, because he said that for many years he had trouble loving himself. And I think it's an, it's an interesting balance that you're pointing to. We need to get out of ourselves, to get out of that narcissism. But it's also important to note that Fred Rogers never told us to completely lose ourselves, that we as we are, are important, and we were important to him. He liked us just the way that we are. But we need to remember that we're important. We're important in this equation too. And so it's a balance, I think, that we have to find, and that joy maybe comes in that balance where We are living towards others and living with others, but we're not losing ourselves. We're not making it all about us, but we're also not erasing ourselves in that process either. And as a person with depression, sometimes it's so easy to think, well, I'm the bad part of this equation. If I just got away from these people, they would be a lot happier. And that's a habit of negative thought that can be very dangerous. And so I just want to say to you and to listeners, as a person who struggles with those kinds of thoughts, the kind of habit of joy and building joy into the little things each day that Fred Rogers did is an inspiration to me. I find myself oftentimes repeating the prayer that Fred Rogers loved so much, "Thank you, God," just for the little things that are there that come to me in my life that bring me just a little bit of joy, not a huge amount, but just a little bit every day. I say, "Thank you, God," several times a day just for those things to remind myself that I am cared for and I am loved, and I'm part of this universe and my family in an important way, even if sometimes I'm not the most joyous person in the room.

Hmm. Oh, very, very good thoughts for us, David. Do you have anything else for us today, or are we gonna, uh, do you have anything else to share as sort of our resident Mr. McFeely today?

Well, I, I, I mentioned my family, and so I want to talk a little bit about raising children and thinking particularly about my daughter, who is 9. And seeing her struggle with these questions as well, she and I in many ways are cut from the same cloth. And I see that sometimes she will begin to do the habits that are negative, telling herself stories about herself that are, that are not helpful. And I wonder sometimes, because she communicates to me and to, and to Kira, my wife, that she feels sometimes like she has to be joyous for us, or she has to put on a brave face or a happy face. And we're trying to communicate to her that it is okay to be sad and it's okay to feel your feelings. But I wonder, and I want to ask you about this, the extent to which sometimes joy can be a burden or joy can be a performance that we feel like we have to do for others, the appearance of joy even when the actual joy is not there. Have you ever struggled with that?

Yes, to an extent.

But I also wonder if when you're talking about the performance of joy, I've come to think less about joy as sort of a feeling and something we do as just as more of something that is internalized, that, that comes from a sense of knowing who we are and sort of knowing what our mission is, maybe even what our vocation is at times. And that may not make a lot of sense, but there are times that I think you can still be a person who is living in joy even when you're in the depths of grief, or even at times where you feel like you might be despairing. And maybe it's partly because our culture has such a hard time disconnecting from feelings all the time. But I do think there is a sense of joy that comes from— again, let's talk about being creative people again for just a moment. Sometimes the greatest— some of the greatest things that I personally have created, I feel like they've been some of my greatest things, have been in the midst of some of my darkest moments. And maybe I'll sit down at a piano or with a guitar and I may even be writing lyrics and music that feels quite mournful in some ways, but at the same time I'm doing something that I have a real sense that I am created to do, and I'm doing something that I feel a sense of confidence about myself in being. And as I'm discovering who I am in that, there's a sense that there is joy that I cannot even feel in some moments that's coming through and pouring through in those times. Because joy is not an emotion. Happiness is an emotion. Joy is something that's much deeper. And joy is something that people experience even in— we have this in history. We have people that have even talked about experiencing something deeper, like when they're in a situation like a prison camp or something, and they found this deeper joy that is there that their captors cannot take from them because it is something deep and it is something abiding that no one can take away. And, um, and I— so I don't know your thoughts on that, but that's kind of where I have been coming down on this.

So if I'm hearing you correctly, you're suggesting that even when we're feeling grief or feeling lament, we can also— we can also be held by or be in the reality of this joy that is bigger than the grief or the lament. And that's not the same as feeling happy. And, and where, where I heard you anchoring that, Rick, was in a sense of belonging, in a sense of authenticity, of being where you're supposed to be and doing the things that you are called to do, like a vocation. And that's given me a lot to think about. I, I've never thought about that before in the way of the way that you described it. But now that you've said it that way, I can definitely understand now later in life as I've lived for, you know, more than 45 years with clinical depression. There are now moments when I look around myself and I can feel the dark feelings, but I also can sense the love that is there for me in my family and the belongingness that I have and the sense that I wouldn't trade even these negative emotions if it meant having to give up being in that place. And to me, that's, that's the closest thing that I can find right now to what I think you're describing when you talk about this joy that is more than just a feeling, but is a sense of belonging and a sense of, of being whole almost. Have I heard you right?

Yes, I think so. And I also want to refer to an episode of The Neighborhood. It was the one where Mr. Rogers goes to the fish tank and he finds one of his goldfish has died. And there's a sense in which that episode, like, it takes a very mournful turn, which was a very interesting thing to do, especially on a children's show that kind of starts out happy and then all of a sudden, you know, he's sad because this fish has died. And then he talks about when he was a kid and this dog that he had had died. And there's a sense in which joy is not gone, but there's a sense in which he had to be true to himself in that moment too, or he wouldn't be able to go back to a happy place if he was untrue to what he was feeling at that time. If he wasn't secure enough to say, you know what, this is sad and this is hard, and in order to be the person who I am and to embrace the joy that I find in all other areas of life, I also need to be honest. And that honesty even in grief, I think, can be a source of our joy in some way. And that may not make any sense, but I think when you experience it, I, I think it maybe does start to click a little bit. And, and I don't know where that finds you, but that just kind of came to my mind as I'm thinking about this intersection of sort of the light and the darkness that is in our life, that the darkness will ultimately be overcome.

I like that so much. And you talk about honesty and trust. Well, you're my friend, Rick, and I I knew that I could trust you with the honesty about my own struggles with clinical depression through the years, and I knew that you wouldn't mock me. I knew that you wouldn't take that information and use it against me. I knew that you would be able to be trusted with that information. And because of that trust, I was able to be honest. And I really like how you talked about that, that to be ourselves, to really be ourselves honestly, is exactly what Fred Rogers taught us to be when he said that he liked us just the way that we are, and that being able to be who we are means that we won't always be the nicest, shiniest, most polished version of ourselves. We'll be in transition, we'll be in struggle, sometimes we'll be in despair, sometimes we'll be in grief and lament. But even in those moments, we have friends around us and people around us that love us and will accept us just the way we are.

Well, this has been a rich conversation, and I wish we could go on further, but today we have to end it here because there's more to our show. But thank you so much. I appreciate you, and I am so glad that you are a friend that stops by often here in this neighborhood. Thank you for sharing that with me today, and thank you for trusting me enough to kind of lay those things out. And that's what— something that we do want to encourage our listeners to do is to, you know, this is a safe place for you. So as you're listening to the show today, maybe you're resonating with some of the things that David has said or that I have said today, and maybe you are feeling like, boy, it's good. It's good to be in solidarity with somebody else. And again, we always want to iterate that this is a safe place for you.

So, David, thank you for stopping by the neighborhood today.

I always enjoy our visits.

Rick, it's so good to be with you. Thank you again for inviting me.

What is joy? Is it different from happiness? If so, what makes us joyful? Why was Fred Rogers such a joyful person? Joy and happiness are wonderful feelings to experience but are very different. Joy is more consistent than happiness. And is cultivated internally. Joy is something that comes when you make peace with who you are, how you are, and why you are. Happiness tends to be more external and is based on other people, things, places, thoughts, and events. While I think Fred Rogers was probably a very happy person, I believe that his happiness was derived from the deep sense of joy inside him. If joy is something that comes to you when you are at peace with who you really are, having a deep sense of your identity, then I think it's safe to say that Fred Rogers cultivated a truly, deeply felt sense of joy in his life. Fred Rogers found a great amount of joy in his life By being a man of intention and ceremony. As Amy Hollingsworth writes in her wonderful book, The Simple Faith of Mr. Rogers: Spiritual Insight from the World's Most Beloved Neighbor, his daily routine was impeccably observed. He awoke at 5 AM for prayer, reflection, and Bible reading, took a 7:30 AM swim at the local pool, where he weighed in at exactly 143 pounds daily, followed his usual workday routine, and kept to a 9:30 PM bedtime. Even his diet had Wright-like clarity: no alcohol and no meat. It isn't difficult to see why a man with this level of discipline would be able to cultivate an interior, an interior life that would inspire awe in others. He once asked me, "You know how when you find somebody who you know is in touch with the truth, how you want to be in the presence of that person?" End quote. Swimming might be one of the best examples that we can give when we talk about joy in Fred Rogers' life. Swimming was very important to Fred, and Fred was intentional about making it a joyful activity. Again, I quote Amy Hollingsworth describing Fred's daily swimming routine. She says, "Before diving into the pool, he would sing out loud, but not too loud, Jubilate Deo, a song Henri Nouwen had taught him from the Taizé community in France." Jubilate Deo. 'Jubilate, Deo, Alleluia,' which means 'rejoice in the Lord, rejoice in the Lord, Alleluia.' He would sing and dive in. He emerged from the pool ready to face a new day with a fresh slate, as if wet from baptism.

End quote.

Well, I think we can see that as important as swimming was to Fred Rogers, swimming was not his source of joy. Swimming was just an area of his life where we can see evidence of the joy which he possessed, or maybe which possessed him. He didn't always want to swim. He didn't always feel like swimming. Fred once said, "I like to swim, but there are some days I don't feel much like doing it, but I do it anyway. I know it's good for me, and I promised myself I do it every day, and I like to keep my promises. That's one of my disciplines.

End of quote.

Maybe the joy we were able to see displayed by Fred Rogers came not only from the intention of cultivating it in his own life, but maybe it was so evident because Fred didn't make his life about himself. What Fred saw in other people, what he chose to see in other people, and what he chose to do for other people certainly seems to be one of his great sources of joy. Fred Rogers loved people. He loved hearing from people. He loved corresponding with people. He seemed to know who he was. Who he was made to be, that he was a person who helped children and families to know who they are. Fred once said, "I just love hearing from those people who watched The Neighborhood when they were children and are now adults, and many of them are parents themselves, and they say, 'I sit and watch with my child and remember what it was like for me to be a child.'" Well, that is a service that the program really gives to people, because if parents can remember what it was like to be a child, then they are going to be much more empathetic with their own children. End of quote. Fred seemed to have uncovered the secret in life that true joy came from loving others well. He seemed to almost have a superpower of self-awareness, and it was like he was on a mission to help others know who they were too. One of my very favorite stories of Fred investing in another person is found in Tim Madigan's book on his friendship with Fred Rogers titled "I'm Proud of You." Mr. Rogers had an appointment to visit a teenage boy who was severely afflicted with cerebral palsy and terrible anger. One of the few things in life that could console this young man was watching Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood on television. Tim Madigan recounts the story in his book, told by Tom Junod. Tom writes: At first, the boy was made very nervous by the thought that Mr. Rogers was visiting him. He was so nervous, in fact, that when Mr. Rogers did visit, he got mad at himself and began hating himself and hitting himself, and his mother had to take him to another room and talk to him. Mr. Rogers didn't leave, though.

He wanted something from the boy, and Mr.

Rogers never leaves when he wants something from somebody. He just waited patiently, and when the boy came back, Mr. Rogers talked to him, and then he made his request. He said, "I would like you to do something for me. Would you do something for me?" On his computer, the boy answered, "Yes, of course." He would do anything for Mr. Rogers. So then Mr. Rogers said, "I would like you to pray for me." 'Will you pray for me?' And now the boy didn't know how to respond. He was thunderstruck, because nobody had ever asked him for something like that. Ever. The boy had always been prayed for. The boy had always been the object of prayer, and now he was being asked to pray for Mr. Rogers. And although at first he didn't know if he could do it, he said he would. He said he'd try. And ever since then, he keeps Mr. Rogers in his prayers and doesn't talk about wanting to die anymore, because he figures Mr. Rogers is close to God, and if Mr. Rogers likes him, that must mean God likes him too. As for Mr. Rogers himself, he doesn't look at the story the same way the boy did or I did. In fact, when Mr. Rogers first told me the story, I complimented him on being smart, for knowing that asking the boy for his prayers would make the boy feel better about himself.? And Mr. Rogers responded by looking at me first with puzzlement and then with surprise: "Oh, heavens no, Tom! I didn't ask him for prayers for him. I asked for me. I asked him because I think that anyone who has gone through challenges like that must be very close to God. I asked him because I wanted his intercession." Mr. Rogers seemed to possess such joy, and he seemed to walk in that joy with such daily intentionality, that it seems he considered joylessness in life to be not just a bad way of living, but a disability. Fred once said, "Part of the problem with the word disabilities is that it immediately suggests an inability to see or hear or walk or do other things that many of us take for granted. But what of people who can't feel or talk about their feelings or manage their feelings in constructive ways? What of people who aren't able to form close and strong relationships? And people who cannot find fulfillment in their lives, or those who have lost hope, who live in disappointment and bitterness and find in life no joy, no love. These, it seems to me, are the real disabilities. End of quote. I think we can all agree that Fred Rogers was a person who embodied joy. He found a great amount of joy in his life by being a man of intention and ceremony. He was intentional about sharing, but he was also intentional about receiving. It was joy that Fred experienced daily in his life that helped him to make such a beautiful day in his neighborhood. Even when it was raining, even when it was sad and full of grief, the joy that sustained him was evident in all that he did. We could use more joy like— that in the world. We could use more joyful people who have discovered the truth about who they are. I just believe so much of what Fred Rogers did was because he was a man of joy, and he wanted others to experience the joy that he had found. Thankfully, there is a wonderful moment in television that can be found on YouTube when Fred Rogers is inducted inducted into the TV Critics Television Hall of Fame. This moment is especially touching when Jeff Erlanger, who had visited on Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood as a boy in a wheelchair, surprises Fred by making the presentation on stage.