God and Hamilton with Guest Kevin Cloud  - Episode 374

Today's podcast is brought to you by Audible. Get a free audiobook download and 30-day free trial at audibletrial.com/voicesinmyhead. That's audibletrial.com/voicesinmyhead. Over 180,000 titles to choose from for your iPhone, Android, Kindle, or MP3 player. That's audibletrial.com/voicesinmyhead. Give it a try today. Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, a songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more with friends, colleagues, and sometimes just by myself. Now make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes or by tweeting at me @RickLeeJames on Twitter. And please join my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. By the way, in case you're interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the voices in my head. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of Voices in My Head. Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I'm your host, Rick Lee James, and I thank you for joining us today. On July 3rd, Hamilton, featuring the original 2015 Broadway production of the smash hip-hop musical, releases on Disney+. Having captured the collective imagination of audiences across the globe, Hamilton has been woven into the cultural fabric of society, shedding light on issues such as immigration, gender equality, diversity, and race. But it has also raised deeply spiritual issues found throughout the life of Alexander Hamilton. The often forgotten and overlooked founding father, Hamilton, an orphan and an immigrant from the Caribbean, impacted the government of the early republic as much as, if not more than, any other founding father. As Kevin Cloud, a pastor and author, details in his book, God and Hamilton: Spiritual Themes from the Life of Alexander Hamilton and the Broadway Musical He Inspired, from Deep River Books, Hamilton's life story serves as a lens through which we can learn more about God God and ourselves, with themes like grace, faith, shame, doubt, forgiveness, and ultimate redemption. Kevin Cloud has stopped by for a visit on the podcast today. Kevin, welcome to Voices in My Head.

Yeah, thank you so much, Rick. I'm honored to be here with you today.

Well, Kevin, it's great to have you with us today, and I'm excited to talk to you about your new book, Congratulations on God and Hamilton. As we start our visit today, why don't you tell listeners a little bit about yourself?

Yeah, so I have been a longtime church planter in the Kansas City area and have planted 4 different churches over the last 20 years. I currently work at a non-for-profit arts conservatory. It's a faith-based community called The Culture House, and I serve there as the director of spiritual life. But I've always kind of lived at this intersection of creativity and faith. I've always felt called to ministry and loved the, loved the church and the impact church can have on people's lives, but I've always also been a musician and a creative thinker and have always found God in creative work, whether it's writing songs or watching movies or watching musicals. I always have just found a unique connection with God as I've pursued the creative life as well. So I love the idea of living at that intersection and trying to encourage other people to, to do the same.

Well, terrific. Now, although I have listened to the soundtrack of Hamilton, and even again today I listened through its entirety so I could be ready for this conversation. I love it, but I've never actually been able to see the Broadway musical for myself, and I'm guessing that's probably the case for many of our listeners because it's hard to get tickets and a lot of us don't live near where it is. But I want to ask first, what was it like for you to be able to see Hamilton live, and what was your initial reaction to that when leaving the theater?

Yeah, it was a remarkable experience. My wife and I lucked into some tickets probably maybe 2014, I think, is when we saw it on Broadway. And we had a trip planned there and kind of kept checking for tickets, and they kind of released a new block the week we were going to be there. And so we were able to go see the show. And when we went, I had all this— I had listened to some of the music, and I went with a great sense of anticipation. And I had heard all these people talk about what a remarkable piece of art it was and what a beautiful story it told. But to be honest, it It was so far greater than my expectations were actually seeing it and experienced it. I mean, it was a remarkable story, a profound experience in a lot of ways. And really, the idea from the book came from seeing it and experiencing God in that theater in a number of different scenes throughout the story that was told. And it was better than I could have ever imagined. I have a friend who saw it. I live in Kansas City and the touring came through Kansas City, and I had a friend who saw it and who kept telling me, like, it can't be that good, right? Like, everybody keeps saying it, and it can't be that good. And then afterwards he called me, he said, nope, it's that good. And I understand why you wanted to write a book about it after he saw it.

Well, that's terrific. And from what I understand too, you were also inspired by the book by Ron Chernow, also titled Alexander Hamilton as well.

Yeah, that's right. So that was the book that Lin-Manuel Miranda read that inspired him to go write the musical. And after I saw the musical and again, had such a profound experience with it, I went home and like you today, just listened to the soundtrack just over and over again. And then I tried to just read anything I could read about the life of Alexander Hamilton. And I started with the Chernow book. And as I read about his life, there were just so many moments that were so moving to me as I learned about his life and his faith and the way that he pursued God and the struggles that he faced and just the way that the great themes of the gospel were really at the center of his life story. And so the more I experienced God in the musical and saw God in the themes of the musical and then learning more about his life story and seeing God at the center of that as well, it really inspired me to try to write this book to help people kind of connect these dots from this remarkable cultural phenomenon to their daily spiritual lives.

Well, in your book, God and Hamilton, you point out pretty close to the beginning of the book the way that the musical has become a cultural phenomenon, and that people are paying thousands of dollars for tickets to the show, that Hamilton has appeared on the COVID of every major entertainment magazine. The cast recording rocketed up the Billboard charts and it set numerous records there. This was what I thought was interesting too, that gyms across the country are offering offering Hamilton-themed workouts, and the musical's popularity has even influenced the US Treasury Department, which reversed a decision to replace Hamilton on the $10 bill due to the popularity. I wonder, what do you feel has so captured the imagination really of the nation and even probably the world at large with this musical? Just in the general public, what do you think— that everyone is finding so appealing with this?

Yeah, I think there's really 3 reasons that kind of all speak to that question. And the first is, we've talked a little bit about it, but the first is that it truly is just a work of genius. And so anybody that sees it, I think, walks away with a sense of like, what did I just see and what did I experience? I've never seen anything like it. Michelle Obama had a quote where she said that seeing Hamilton was the greatest piece of art in any genre that she's ever experienced. And I just think a lot of people have had that experience. So I think that's one reason, it's just that good. The second reason is that I do think Hamilton in a very unique way deals with some of the critical cultural issues that we're dealing with today. And whether it's race, whether it's immigration, whether it's gender equality, there are just important issues that are right at the center of the story that Hamilton tells. That has connected with people and that people have found some hope in and found some, some inspiration in. Hamilton was an immigrant from the Caribbean. And one of the themes from, from the musical that you just see over and over again is his, his fight and his battle to, to find equality and be treated as an equal in this country. And I just think that story is so at the center of, of even today, the protests and the different things we see happening in our culture today around race and around immigration. And so I think the, I think the way that this musical connects with the issues our culture is grappling with today has brought so much inspiration and hope to people in the battles that we face today. Thirdly, I think the great themes of humanity and the gospel are absolutely at the center of the story. Themes like grace and shame and surrender and death and redemption, themes that you and I deal with every day of our lives. Are really just right under the surface of this musical. And so I think people, when they see this musical or listen to this music, these themes, I think, connect with them and grab them and inspire them to live differently. There's a great quote by an NBA basketball player from the Los Angeles Lakers who went and saw this musical, and afterwards they asked him what he thought, and he said something to the effect of, you know, sometimes you live your life and you don't see some things. You just kind of get to living life and you don't see things of how you live. But he said, "It's great when you go see a story like Hamilton and you can take things from his story and bring it back to your world today." And I just think that's been so many people's experience with Hamilton is they go to the theater and they see this story and there are so many different truths where they can take from that story and bring it back to their lives and let it change the way that they live today. Lin-Manuel Miranda talks about this. He talks about the idea, one of his favorite things that happens in live theater is what he calls moments of action, which is when something on the stage happens and that that moment confronts our lives as the audience and demands a response from us. It demands us to make a decision on how are we going to respond to what we just saw played out on the stage.

Yeah, and you know what I want to talk about, earlier you had mentioned his immigration status and the equality that he was always fighting for. And there are a number of social issues that you already said that Hamilton speaks to. But, you know, just before I ask you about that, I want to ask you about the choice that Lin-Manuel Miranda made in making this a hip-hop musical. Because really, you know, most people, if they even thought about Alexander Hamilton before, we're not gonna think, you know, it would be great to tell his story, hip-hop musical, you know. Yeah. And everything about it, it makes it, I think, like the perfect vehicle for telling this story. And the idea that they used actors of color to play the roles of the founding fathers in Hamilton, which is also an idea that I don't think, you know, a lot of people would have, would have thought, hey, let's, let's try this before. So much of it seems so revolutionary even in its creativity. I wonder what it is that makes sort of the hip-hop genre the perfect vehicle for telling this story. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Yeah, it's a great question. And, you know, it's funny, I heard a story. I've gotten to know a few of the cast members through social media and different events that we've done, and one of them told the story of one of the original cast members who was in some of the workshops of Hamilton as it was happening. And he told his friend, he said, yeah, I'm a part of this new show, it's It's a hip-hop show about this founding father, Alexander Hamilton, and his friend's advice was, "Dude, get off of that show as quick as you can. That thing's not going anywhere, man. Go do something else." But it does, at first glance, it does seem like these worlds that are so far apart as far as the American Revolution and then this world of hip-hop, but there's another great book out called, oh shoot, I'm gonna, gosh, what's the name of the book? It's called Hamilton: The Revolution. Is the name of the book. Tells a lot of backstory about the actual musical and the creation of the musical. It's a wonderful book. And in it, they talk about how hip-hop is the perfect genre for this story of revolution, that it's the soundtrack of defiance, that because this story of these, of revolting against this oppressive leadership of Great Britain back in the day, that hip-hop just provides the perfect genre for that. And I thought that was really brilliant. And really connected it. And Lin-Manuel Miranda, when he read the original Hamilton biography by Ron Chernow, that's what he kept coming back to was this is a hip-hop story. Like these are guys pulling out, going out to the dueling ground and having duels. And it just made him think of, I forget the two hip-hop stars, but there's two hip-hop stars that were shot and killed that Lin-Manuel Miranda had said, man, this is their story. And so I just think that for so many reasons, it did, it did provide the perfect soundtrack for that. And I also think it opened up all kinds of new possibilities of what Broadway could be. I mean, I mean, this has never happened on Broadway, you know. Manuel Miranda's first musical on Broadway, Into the Heights, there were some moments of some rapping and some hip-hop moments, but it was nothing like Hamilton, I don't think. And this is the first truly hip-hop musical that hit Broadway. And in a lot of ways, I think it brought a whole new generation of people to Broadway and a whole new generation of people to musicals. And I just think a lot of people for the first time thought, what is this? I've never seen anything like this before. And something about it is really compelling to me. You also asked about the Founding Fathers as actors of color. And that was another just creative genius type of decision where you imagine George Washington and John Adams and these people as actors of color. And there's been a lot written and a lot of people that have discussed how impactful that's been to kind of reimagine that story and how one of the authors or one of the original actors, Chris Jackson, who played George Washington, said that even just by being on the stage as an actor of color brings all kinds of conversations to the forefront for these audiences that and see the show, and it helps all of us imagine new possibilities that maybe we hadn't imagined before. And so I just think it was a brilliant decision that brings so much texture to the production as well.

Oh, definitely. And you know, it really is a storytelling genre. I don't know how often people that don't listen to a lot of hip-hop music, if they really understand that, but there is some real storytelling going on in so much of that particular genre of music, and it really does feel like you know, with, with especially right now as we're looking around at our culture and we're still in, in the throes of so many protests and people are, you know, people are hurting, people are angry, they're trying to make their voice heard right now. You can really see in so many ways why that particular genre of music would fit really well with a story that really is about revolution and change, you know. So it really, it really is quite quite interesting just to think of all that has gone into play with this. And, and, you know, and you had mentioned before, there's a number of social issues, and not the least of which has been a real issue in our country, especially in the last 4 years, which is immigration. And Hamilton was an immigrant, and he came from the Caribbean islands, although I don't know that I would have thought about until maybe this musical and listening to it, that back in the 1776 era it seemed like almost everybody would be, you know, more in the category of immigrants at that time than now. But, but it seems like it really was a, a real point of contention for him with the people around him, wasn't it?

Yeah, it really was. He, he, he really struggled getting along with the rest of the Founding Fathers. He and George Washington had a very special relationship. And George Washington immediately respected and admired him as a leader and as a collaborator in the American Revolution. But the rest of the Founding Fathers really didn't like Alexander Hamilton. And he could be brash and proud and arrogant. A lot of people think he had kind of a chip on his shoulder in the sense of him not coming from a family that had a good reputation, a family that had a lot of wealth, like many of the other Founding Fathers did. But it is interesting to your point how quickly that maybe immigrant bias can creep into the conscience of our country. I mean, this isn't even an established country yet, right?

Mm-hmm.

And yet the newer immigrant that's just come from the Caribbean is looked down upon by people like John Adams, who would kind of call him the Creole bastard, was kind of the name he would have for Hamilton as a way to kind of keep him in his place and not accept him as a true contributor at the American Revolution and beyond. And it was something that in Hamilton's private letters, you could see that kind of frustration and that angst and at times even the embarrassment and shame of coming from the family that he came from. I mean, his father abandoned their family when Alexander was around the age of 5, and his mother died when he was around the age of 11. And he was also born into kind of controversial, a controversial situation where his mother had actually left his previous, or her previous husband, and some people thought it might have been an abusive situation, but she had left him, but the church didn't grant an official divorce. And so when she married this second man who became Alexander's husband, a lot of people considered it an illegitimate marriage. And so some people thought Hamilton was then born into illegitimate circumstances. And so there just was a lot of controversy. And then on top of that, coming from the Caribbean, it just, it created so much angst and shame and embarrassment really throughout Alexander's entire life. And that same thing continues today in this world, unfortunately. I mean, the idea that— I mean, you look at the news today and you can't escape this narrative that says that an immigrant is not welcome, an immigrant is not equal, an immigrant is not worthy. And it's still a narrative that we are battling against today.

Yeah, for sure. It's amazing how timely it is for being a story that happened so long ago, for sure.

That's right.

You know, Alexander Hamilton, a lot of us, since we've learned about him, and, and really because of things like the musical and the book, I, I think most of us didn't know a lot about him before because he was so forgotten. But what we've discovered, he was a great man, but he was also a flawed man who was a failure in many ways. He had a moral failure in his very notorious affair with with Maria Reynolds. He had a political failure and a real fall from grace, tumbling from the second highest position in government to really political exile within a few short years. And, and spiritual failure, in that he appears to have drifted away from his faith during his, his, the middle years of his life. So I want to ask you though, because there's, there's a character in the story who is, is very important and that is Hamilton's wife, Eliza. And in all of his failings, she really becomes an agent of grace in his life and in his redemption, doesn't she? I, I just wondered if you could talk to us a little bit about her role in, in his life.

Yeah, that's exactly right. And one of my favorite, uh, people in the whole journey as I learned about his life and his, his rise and fall was learning about Eliza Hamilton and learning about her faith and learning about her character. She was an absolutely remarkable woman. And through all of his ups and downs, she stood by him. I think one of the most powerful scenes in the entire musical is when Alexander has committed this affair and his relationship with his wife is strained and they're singing this song and he's trying to kind of woo her back. And she is cold and distant, and she flinches at one point when he reaches out to touch her, and she's just really struggling with how can she forgive this thing that's happened to her. And not only that he had an affair, but the way that the affair became public is there were rumors that were being spread around this relationship that Alexander had with this woman and this woman's husband. And the rumors were that he was engaging in speculation, meaning he was giving this family inside information financial information so that they might benefit on decisions the government was making. And people saw correspondence between Alexander and this woman and didn't understand what was happening. But Alexander responded to these rumors by basically confessing in lurid detail this affair that he was having with this woman and published it in the papers. And so it was really his own, his own voice that confessed this crime publicly to save his political reputation. And so even that act, you can imagine Eliza being so not only devastated, but so angry that her husband would try to save his political career by making this such a public thing. And yet she got to the point where she did forgive him and they did rebuild their marriage. And I'm sure it was a hard season of marriage. There was, what someone I read in a biography on Eliza Hamilton was that they had a, I think they had 7 children, they had a big family. And they had children pretty consistently except during this kind of season. There was like a 2 to 3 year gap where they didn't have kids. And it seems like maybe a lack of intimacy in their marriage and going through a season of real struggle. They bought a house up north of the city and they said that Alexander would, as a way to rebuild his trust with Eliza, instead of having a place in the city where he would work all week and then come home, that their whole family lived up in this house and he would ride horseback miles every day, there and home, so that he could be with his wife and try to rebuild this marriage. But she does, she finally forgives him. And there's this moment in the musical where she forgives him and reaches out and takes his hand and the whole chorus sings out, "Forgiveness, can you imagine?" And when that moment happens, you can feel the atmosphere in the theater change. You can feel this weight this presence, I think the presence of the Holy Spirit in that moment just falls on everybody in that theater as we are all then challenged about this act of forgiveness. And as I travel and speak about my book, I preach, one of the sermons I preach is about this very issue and the idea that every one of us struggles with unforgiveness. Every single one of us struggles with forgiving the people that have hurt us so badly. And yet this moment where Eliza forgives her husband, it challenges each of us. And it makes us look at our lives and it makes us say, will I walk the path of forgiveness the way that Eliza Hamilton did? And will I let that moment on the stage pierce my heart, change my heart, help me see the cost in my life of unforgiveness, and help me move towards forgiveness as well? And so that redemption really happened both in their life, but even more powerfully, I think, after Hamilton's life. And what happened after he died, he was gunned down in a political duel with the sitting vice president, Aaron Burr. And a lot of people think politics today are out of hand. I mean, back then we had duels of honor where guys got guns and went on the dueling grounds. And in this particular duel, Hamilton was shot and killed. And Eliza, as you can imagine, was devastated and so deeply grieved. They had actually recently lost their eldest son, Philip, also to a duel of honor. Philip challenged another man who was disparaging Hamilton's honor publicly. And Philip challenged this man to a duel and he was shot and killed, which is a part of the story in the musical. And so Eliza now has lost her oldest son, now she's lost her husband, and she's just absolutely overwhelmed by grief. But she works through her grief and a few years later she partners with some women and really feels called to build an orphanage in New York City. In fact, it's the first public orphanage in New York City. And I think it's a remarkable example of, you can imagine Alexander living with this shame and regret and grief and embarrassment about being an orphan. And then Eliza, who I can imagine sharing that burden with her husband, takes that hurt, that pain, that brokenness, and she uses it for good. She goes and she starts an orphanage and she offers this incredible gift. I mean, to be an orphan in New York City in the early 1800s would have been an impossibly difficult road. I mean, there were no good options. But now there's this orphanage that these new kids can come and be a part of. And Eliza, she has this line where she says, "In each of their eyes, I see you, Alexander." And it's how the musical ends, is her singing about the orphanage and singing about what a beautiful thing that is to keep his legacy going. And it is. And to me, it's one of the most beautiful moments of redemption I've ever witnessed on the stage.

Well, and you know, just today as I was listening through the soundtrack again, her story I think stood out to me more than it ever had before. And it reminded me of one of my very favorite definitions of forgiveness that I've heard before, is, is that forgiveness is when the person who has been sinned against allows the person who sinned against them to re-enter their humanity. And, um, and I really think that that comes through, uh, just listening to the soundtrack again today. I thought, wow, she really is this agent of grace and really, really a Christ figure in many ways in this story, in the way that she is able to allow him back into his humanity. So thank you for, for sharing a bit more with our listeners tonight about his wife and, and just the amazing person that I think she, she would have had to have been, for sure. Well, yeah, that's beautifully We're, we're, uh, getting close to the end of our, our visit tonight here on the podcast, but there was one more thing from your book God in Hamilton that I wanted to ask you about. And there's so much good in the book that you have written about, but I wonder if you could tell us the story as we start to wind down tonight of Christopher Jackson, who was a member of the original cast, and how he would pray for the cast each night before their performances of Hamilton.

Yeah, I love this story, and it's actually a tradition that continues to this day. I mean, as I talked to a couple of people I've gotten to know, they say every single night they still do this. But the original idea was Chris would gather up the cast and they would all pray before the performance. And what they would pray, they would ask that their performance that night would change every single person that came into the theater, whether it was the actors on stage whether it was the orchestra or even more so whether it was the audience that were coming to see the show, but that that show would transform people and that what would happen on that stage that night would help people become more human, become more forgiving, become better versions of themselves. And I love that example of these people on Broadway that are understanding how powerful the story they're telling is and spending time together praying and asking for that to impact people's lives. And that has happened for hundreds, if not thousands of people that have seen it. I've read story after story of people saying, "This musical has changed my life." In fact, as I've traveled the country preaching about my book, "God in Hamilton," one of the most profound stories I heard was from a young woman who came up after I preached a sermon and she told me that this musical saved her life. And I said, "Really? Tell me more about that. That's a pretty profound statement. Like, what happened?" And she told me that she was listening to the soundtrack one night when she was in a very dark season. And on this particular night, she had decided she was gonna take her own life. And she just was in her bedroom, kind of listening to the soundtrack. And there was one particular line that Chris Jackson, in fact, George Washington, sang out where he was talking to Alexander Hamilton and he said, "Dying is easy, young man. Living is harder." And she said that that lyric just struck her like a bolt of lightning, that the idea of death is the easy way out, that death is easier than living, that the hard path and the difficult path is choosing to live. It just woke her somehow, and she decided that night that she would not do that, and she ended up reaching out to her pastor, got more involved in her church, and completely changed what could have been a horrific tragedy by listening to the story. And that's one of many, many, many examples that I've heard firsthand. There was another I remember this great story of a middle school workshop that I was leading on creativity and faith. And this young girl was telling me about how she made a decision to run for student council. And she said at the last minute, she almost bailed on it. She almost decided to not do it because she was really scared of giving a speech in front of her peers and worried about the potential failure of not getting elected. But then she thought of Alexander Hamilton and she thought of the lyric, I'm not throwing away my shot. And that gave her the courage to go try to become on student council. And she gave her speech and she actually did end up winning and became on the student council at school. And what I told her, I said, if you keep living that way, if you keep taking initiative every time you're faced with fear or doubt or insecurity, but if you keep saying to yourself, I'm not gonna throw away this shot, I'm gonna take initiative here, it would lead to a radically different life than if we would keep shrinking back from fear every time that we face insecurities or difficulties or discouragements. And so those are just a couple of many stories I've heard whose lives have been radically changed by this musical. And I think it's just a beautiful example of how God can use story to transform our lives.

And there's a great chapter in your book on initiative too, and I really want to point people to that as well. And, uh, and I, and I thank you for being able to, to talk, uh, so much about the book to us. Tonight. Your book, God in Hamilton, we know what the cast was praying now before the musical each night and what they— the tradition continues to be as they pray for people to walk in the theater. I wonder, what are you hoping and praying for as far as your book, God in Hamilton, when someone picks it up? And what are you hoping people will take from it?

Yeah, you know, I hope that— my hope in writing the book really was to try to connect with people who have just fallen in love with this musical. And, you know, the fact that it's come coming out on Disney+ just expands the reach exponentially as far as the amount of people who will see it and watch it. And I just hope that it can help people connect some dots between that story that they see, that they feel such connection with, that they feel so inspired by, and then it connects some dots for them to their faith. And it helps them maybe look at that and ask the same question that the NBA player Josh Hart had said as far as what truths can I take from the story and bring back to my life today? What would it look like for me to be more forgiving? What would it look like— for me to live out a story of redemption for some of the brokenness that I see in my life? What would it look like for me to take more initiative? I hope that the book can help inspire people, learn to see those truths, and then learn to apply them to our lives today.

Well, thank you so much for writing it. It really is an excellent book. I've been enjoying reading it, and thank you for sharing so much about it tonight. I do want to let all of our listeners know that the new book, uh, God and Hamilton, is available now. And we are going to have links to the book on my website at voicesinmyheadpodcast.com, and we will also have a link to the website godandhamilton.com, and you can find out more information there as you listen to this show. My guest this week has been Kevin Cloud. He is a pastor, a church planner, and the author of the new book God and Hamilton. He Kevin, thank you so much for being one of the Voices in My Head this week.

Yeah, thank you so much, Rick. I really enjoyed the conversation, and it was an honor to share with you tonight.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, follow my blog, and even schedule me for a concert or a speaking engagement. Better yet, even a book signing in your neighborhood. You can find all that and more at rickleejames.com. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, the more visible this podcast will be online. And now for the benediction: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. God bless you, and thank you for listening to Voices in My Head.