God Gave Rock and Roll to You - Dr. Leah Payne Voices In My Head (The Rick Lee James Podcast) - Epis

Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I am your host Rick Lee James, and I'm so grateful for all of you who are here listening today. This is going to be a really great episode. I know this because I, I read the book that we're discussing today, and we have the author. It's Leah Payne, and I'm really excited to be able to talk about her new book today, God Gave Rock and Roll to You. So let me stop the music here and we will get on with conversation. I think— did you hear music today, Leah?

I did.

I did. All right, I think I got it working this week. My last guest I had on— I've only been trying to do this recently where I do it in the episode, just so everybody listening at home knows. I haven't quite learned to fade out yet, but last time I didn't even get the music in the episode, so it just sounded weird at the beginning.

But well, as a fellow podcaster, I have all the empathy in the world for you. I know it's— the editing stuff is really, really tough.

It does. So anything we can do to take a little time out, that, that's a big help. But, uh, but let me share quickly your bio with everybody today as we begin, because it's very— you have a lot of credentials that I want to share. Uh, Leah Payne is Associate Professor of American Religious History at Portland Seminary and a 2023-2024 Public Fellow at the Public Religion Research Institute, PRRi. She holds a PhD from Vanderbilt University, and her research explores the intersection of religion, politics, and popular culture. She is the author of God Gave Rock and Roll to You: A History of Contemporary Christian Music, which is published through Oxford University Press. And she is also the co-host of The Rock That Doesn't Roll, a public radio exchange on PRX, podcast about Christian rock and its listeners, and Weird Religion, a religion and pop culture podcast. Her writing and research has appeared in the Washington Post, NBC News, Religion News Service, and Christianity Today. And I'm so grateful to have you for this conversation today. So officially, welcome to Voices in My Head, Leah Payne.

Oh, thank you so much. I'm delighted to be with you.

Well, I really loved your book. And many of my listeners already know this, but my background is in, in writing CCM Music, uh, more on the independent side. But, um, a few years ago I was a writer with Lifeway Worship, so I did some recording in Nashville, probably with many of these same musicians who were actually on the records with all these hits, you know, over the years that CCM Music has produced. Because that's one thing about Nashville, everybody kind of draws from the same pool when it comes to music, for sure. And it doesn't matter if it's, uh, country or Christian or rock, it seems like they all kind of share musicians together. So it It was fun to read about some things in this book, uh, to read some names of people that I know, which was really—

oh, wonderful.

Um, and, and also sometimes good, sometimes not so good. The Church of the Nazarene, where I hold my ordination, uh, was mentioned, and it was fascinating. I did not realize how many times they would show up in your book and how much they were a part of even the building of CCM music, or for people listening, contemporary Christian music. We'll probably say CCM a lot.

Sure.

But I wonder if today we could just start, because the book starts in a really cool place of kind of your relationship with Charlie Peacock and how that all started in a coffee shop. I wonder if you'd mind just kind of sharing a little with my listeners, uh, kind of about that story and kind of how this journey began.

Sure. Um, but I do want to come back to that Nazarene thing. I'm super excited to talk with you about that. Um, yes, so, um, right out of college, I, I got married, um, to an aspiring CCM, contemporary Christian music artist, um, and we moved to Nashville, Tennessee, because that's of course what you do, or at least it was what you did. And, um, I, you know, this is— I actually got a job first at a Cracker Barrel, um, for like one day. But I'm not a southern gal. I had never been inside a Cracker Barrel before, and it was not for me. I didn't really know how to, how to be. Um, and so then of course I went to Starbucks because I'm from the West Coast, and that just seemed like that's where it should go. So, um, I got a job working at a Starbucks, and one of my— two of my favorite customers were Charlie Peacock and Andy Ashworth, who together founded the Art House, which is an incredible nonprofit slash arts collective slash art and theology meeting place slash studio slash everything. And Charlie asked me to— eventually asked me to be his assistant. And I, I said yes gladly and then worked for Charlie and Andy for several years. And, you know, they were, they were just super cool bosses, as you could imagine. And I just learned so much from Charlie. I didn't actually know very much about contemporary Christian music. And that's going to sound funny because I was raised in the Foursquare Church, which, if you've read the book, Foursquare comes up a few times as well. The kind of holiness, Pentecostal, Baptist-y type denominations come up a lot. So I was raised in that world, but my dad didn't like CCM. He didn't think it was any good, so he didn't want it played in our home. So, but of course, you know, you just grow up in that era. For me, in the 1990s, it's just everywhere, you know, like it was unavoidable for people who grew up in certain forms of, of, um, Protestant, white Protestantism in the United States. And so, um, it it was everywhere, but I wasn't like a fan fan, you know. So I wasn't familiar. I didn't really know who Charlie was, and I'm embarrassed to say that because I learned pretty quickly that he's a very big deal.

Yeah.

Um, and has a, has a career that far out, you know, it's, it's far beyond contemporary Christian music, although he was a really important figure in, in CCM as well. Um, and I didn't realize that you know, then that he was such an important thinker about what contemporary Christian music was and, um, and what, what he thought music made by Christians could be. Um, and so I learned so much from him, and then eventually, um, went on to grad school and, and I wrote a different book and just, you know, was kind of getting on with my life, but just the power of contemporary Christian music just kept coming back to me, and how— and also how, how little credit CCM got as a really important center for spiritual formation in, in, um, the communities who listened and consumed CCM, how important it was. Um, because a lot of times it gets, like in popular conversation, it gets, um, dismissed, I think, as being, you know, it's pop music. Um, sometimes it's, it's dismissed as being derivative or, um, um, like a form of kitsch or something like that. But I knew, because I had grown up in that world, that's not the whole story. Contemporary Christian music was incredibly powerful and formative in people's lives. Um, and so, yeah, so that's how I kind of got from, from Charlie, you know, working, working for him and learning so much from him, um, and then to kind of thinking about it academically.

Yeah.

Um, and so this book is in some ways, you know, it's like a— it's maybe a 5-year project, but in other ways it's like a 20-year project. Yeah.

Oh, it's, it's a huge deal. And the amount of research and time that you put into it. And I hope you'll take this as a compliment. I feel like what Kristin Dume did with— or it might be Dumez, I might be pronouncing it wrong. But what she did with Jesus and John Wayne, I really feel like you've done something very similar, only from the music side of things and the way that your book looks at the history of things. It would be a mistake to think this is just like like, oh, Christian music's great and here's all the reasons why. This is like some really strong journalism, I think, just looking at like the history of things, where it came from, the good, the bad, the ugly, how it has been formative in people's life, the way that it has actually been used as a tool not for good sometimes, I think. And so that's— it's, it's unique, I think, in the marketplace of books on this topic, for sure. And, um, And I think, you know, as you mentioned Charlie Peacock a few minutes ago, I think one of the easiest things to point to kind of just outside of the CCM world was, you know, the group The Civil Wars, which, right, I mean, was just a huge, you know, secular band that— I mean, a duo really, but they really kind of changed things, I think, in Christian music again, because people started thinking, partially due to Charlie's influence, like, oh, you mean we can sing songs as Christians that aren't necessarily just for church on Sunday, you know, or aren't strictly Bible, like we can actually be the creative people God made us to be and not, you know, every word doesn't have to be dripping with the scripture passage, you know.

Right, right.

So it was, yeah, so he, you're right, he's just revolutionary in the way that, that he did things. But, but okay, well, let's go to the topic I know you wanted to talk about because it's not very long into the book at all when you start talking about some people from the Church of the Nazarene.

That's right.

And I specifically, the ones that come to mind are the Benson family. And, and I will say this, the, the Bensons you mentioned, I, I don't, uh, I didn't have a lot of connection with them, but the Benson family still is a part of the Church of the Nazarene, and, and I still run across Bensons from time to time, you know.

Oh, that's amazing.

Yeah. And, and the, the ones that I have met and know anyway, I mean, some of them have like— when I was growing up, they came to my church to preach revival services and stuff. Okay, sweet people. Um, but it was interesting kind of hearing the story about them and kind of how their whole influence influence on music. In fact, Bob Benson— who I don't remember a lot about Bob in, in your book, as opposed to probably Bob's parents— but Bob was kind of known for his amazing preaching and writing and, and was also involved with music too. But when I say the complexities of like what the Nazarene Church brings to us, Bob Benson was one that when I think of, even though I never got to hear him while he was alive, I still have some of his books, and I just tear up almost reading some of his stories that are in the book.

Yes.

And the way that he would just talk, he, he almost reminded me of the, the Mr. Rogers of the Church of the Nazarene in a lot of ways. He just kind of has that presence. So, so maybe we should, we should just go right into the Nazarene thing. I'm, I'm a minister in the Church of the Nazarene today. It's a lot different than what it was back then. There's a lot of and actually even today I can think there's a lot of division in our denomination with people with different thoughts and ideas. Um, but tell us a little bit about how the Church of the Nazarene and the Benson family specifically, how they play a huge role in bringing, uh, making Christian music in the contemporary fashion a thing.

Sure. You know, um, one of the things first, I'm always, um, I've, I always feel very It's a compliment to be compared to Kristin Kobes Du Mez. And I think, you know, she and I and, and many other scholars are trying to explore the kind of cultural history of groups that we call evangelical. And so one of the things that I'm— the question of this book is, what do you, what do you learn from what do you learn about evangelicals through the music? And the music is really important, not just because it's a historically important part of Christian worship. Of course, it's like all the way back to the Bible. Um, but it's important because it's one of the most, um, powerful and in a mass media age, one of the most profitable forms of, of Christian formation. Or evangelicals. So what I found is that, you know, if you look at a lot of histories of evangelicalism, there are certain groups that get more play than others because of where they're, where they're at, you know, in, you know, so if they're a group that has historically been a part of the, um, like, uh, local governments, like magisterial traditions, you'll get a certain, you know, you'll, you'll find out about certain groups. If you find out, or if you're looking for groups who are about um, you know, getting legislation passed, especially like the religious right. You know, if you're looking at the Christian Coalition or the Moral Majority, you'll get a certain, um, vision. A lot of Baptists, um, you'll see a lot of Baptist names. What do you— you know, whose voice do you see when you see the music? And that's where, um, you see holiness people. Holiness people generally, and for if your listeners aren't familiar, Nazarenes are part of a larger group, um, holiness, Wesleyan holiness movement, um, that we, we call. And, um, the Wesleyans were very, um, very good at, at putting on revivals. They were really, really, um, the revival meeting where there's, um, you know, emotive preaching a moment called an altar call, which is where the preacher will, um, give an invitation to people to commit their lives to God in some way. You know, usually the kind of initial one would be for salvation, but then holiness people add sanctification. So holiness, you know, you get up and work. Yes, absolutely. Um, and some, some depending— I mean, a lot of Nazarenes believe in entire sanctification, so you're made like entirely perfect. Um, so that moment is a huge deal in holiness movements, not just holiness people. Pentecostals are really into it too, and they add things like tongues. Um, but, but, um, that moment is so big, and music is very key. You know, because you're a Nazarene, right? Like, you don't, you don't give an altar call in silence. Nobody does that, right? You know, you gotta have music. Music is the thing that really moves So, um, the, the book starts with, um, two people, John and Eva Green Benson, who were, um, just kind of regular people. Um, John was in insurance, Eva played piano, very talented musician. Both of them were, were really talented. And they went to an open-air meeting, a tent revival meeting in an abandoned lot in Nashville in, in the late 19th century. And they heard this hellfire and brimstone type sermon from a guy, a really radical holiness preacher. And at that time, the Nazarene Church didn't exist. The Bensons were instrumental in creating— they were kind of co-creators of, of the Nazarene Church. And it was based in, in large part on their life-changing experience during this revival meeting. And so they responded in, um, it was, it was such a radical experience. They wanted to respond and they did it through creating a publishing company. And initially, um, the publishing included pamphlets and tracts and, and newsletters and things like that and, and songbooks.. And pretty quickly, songbooks became the, the core of the print publishing business. And eventually— by the way, at that time it was called the Pentecostal Church of the Nazarene, right? Um, they dropped Pentecostal when Pentecostal became associated with tongue speaking and, and kind of the real wild meetings that Pentecostals had. I grew up Pentecostal, by the way, so I'm not saying that— I'm not saying that in any kind of derogatory way. But, um, So, so these two people, um, I would guess that they had absolutely no idea that they were creating the foundation for what would become, um, an almost billion-dollar industry. They were trying to respond to the work of God in their lives. And so, and they did it, I think they intuited rightly, and this is where holiness people, I think I think we're due for— in scholar circles, I think we're due for a kind of renaissance in, in exploring the influence of holiness people because, um, because they emphasized things like codes of behavior and, um, physical manifestations of, of the work of God and songs. You know, sometimes we miss their contribution to Christianity, because we tend to— we live in a sort of, um, Protestantized, uh, world where we favor the written word a little bit more. So if you, if you favor, you know, sermons and books and stuff, you might miss people like the Bensons because they're not writing theological tomes. What are they doing? They're writing songs about the second coming. Yeah, if you, if you know anything about, um, like where kind of general garden variety quote-unquote evangelicalism is today, I think you can see their influence in really profound ways. But if you're not looking at the music, you might miss it.

Yeah, no, that's good. I'm glad you made that point because even like the guiding question of your book is, is about what we can learn from the development of evangelicalism through CCM. And you're right, so often we think about the people who, who wrote things down. And I even had a church history professor in Nashville. I went to Trebekah in Nashville.

And oh, wonderful.

Okay. He used to always say to us, you know, the people who changed the world are the ones who learned to write and they put it down in books. And that's true. However, I always try to remind people who preach— I don't usually preach, I'm always the one leading the music— that people don't leave humming the sermon. They leave with kind of the song in their heart, you know.

1000%. And there are so many instances in the book where, I mean, it's sort of implicit, but I'll just make it explicit here, where there are people who are trying to harness the music and make it subservient to like the preached word, and it does not work. So one of the, the instances that you and I are both, um, you know, we were probably both of age at this time, but, um, I, I talk about the rise of Passion, um, and the kind of neo-reformed musical efforts of John Piper. And Piper, who, if you're not familiar with him, is very famous for being, um, involved in the kind of New Calvinist movement. And if you're gonna do like two groups that repeatedly don't get along, I think you'd have to do the Calvinists and like the Wesleyan Holiness. So, so, but, um, Piper was really influenced by the, uh, charismatic movements on, on the West Coast. But he did not like those, you know, loosey-goosey, like, uh, Jesus is my boyfriend lyrics that honestly people from the Wesleyan tradition tend to appreciate, myself included. You know, I consider myself a part of the— like, very deeply influenced by, um, Wesleyan ideas. And, you know, Wesleyan people like their hearts strangely warmed by thinking about Jesus. And so, but Piper, you know, really wanted to emphasize things like the sovereignty of God, the bigness of God, and, and would work really hard to, you know, he recognized the power of the music, like how it was just like really able to move people, but had really specific ideas about how that should be handled. But the problem is that there were all of these charismatics that kept kind of sneaking in with their charismatic, you know, messages that were very mystical and very— I mean, you know, I'm pretty familiar with a lot of, you know, discourse around Nazarene identity. Um, just being the school where I am is, um, historically Quaker and historically Wesleyan. And I would guess that, um, you know, among your colleagues, there are some people who, you know, the Nazarenes were deeply influenced by the fundamentalist movement in the 1920s, but they preceded it. And so there are some folks who would identify as Nazarene that we would probably categorize pretty safely in religious right, you know, like very traditionally politically conservative and all that kind of stuff. And then there are others who, um, would maybe be more like the historic Wesleyan tradition interested in things like social holiness, interested in kind of the— the tradition has origins in, um, like with really deeply concerned with, um, public life and supportive of things like the temperance movement and Prohibition because of the social ills of, of, um, alcohol at that time in the late 19th, early 20th century. So, um, I mean, I would guess that you can— you feel those strands around you in the Nazarene tradition. And I think that if you look at a lot of the music, you can see those tensions play out as well. You know, there's, there's these— the music is not just important because of what it does in liturgy, although that's very important. But contemporary Christian music, most of it was made to be an alternative form of popular culture. And that made it about really about parenting. And it was about how are we going to raise kids who will honor God and live in a way that we think is for the good of, of the kingdom of God and the country. And that's where it gets like really high stakes.

Yeah.

Did you experience it like, were you a CCM fan as a, as a kid?

I really was not. And it's not— it's interesting because I liked at the time country music, probably. I was, you know, late '90s, mid-'90s, you know, when I was a kid.

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. Although that changed when I discovered there was this guy named Stephen Curtis Chapman because I was a guitar player. And I realized, wow, that guy can play, you know. So, like, I became, like, obsessed with Stephen Curtis for a while. He was kind of my big CCM guy, you know, at the time.

And he, he's such a tight songwriter too. I can totally see how— yeah, his— it— when you listen, you know, I write about the so-called Nashville sound, um, and one of the characteristics includes like really hooky, tight songs. And I think he is a great example of someone who just knows how to— like, a little turn of phrase, um, and you don't forget it.

Yeah. And I think he just had his 50th number one, like, radio song at this point. And so he's been doing it for so long. But for me, it was, it was, it was like the heart that he had that I could feel coming from lyrics, which at the time I didn't know of too many people quite like him that I felt like, oh, there's real depth here. But man, he's a great musician and I'd really like to aspire to be like that, you know? So, so yeah, I definitely experienced it. And, you know, you mentioned something about, you know, like kind of the country being entwined, parenting being entwined, all that stuff. Oh yeah, you don't mind, there's a, there's a little section I want to read from your book real quick.

Sure, of course.

Because music, again, it covers all these things. But you say, um, I don't know what page it is because I have the Kindle version in front of me, but, um, it says one way to win the admiration of the nation was to glorify it. And Southern gospel quartets sang patriotic standards like My Country 'Tis of Thee and The Star-Spangled Banner, as well as traditional church hymns, because Southern The gospel seamlessly combined patriotism, traditional white Southern musical styles, cultural tastes, and political orientations. It was an ideal vehicle for promoting a form of American civil religion that was soaked in white Southern traditionalism. That is completely my experience growing up. Uh, wow. I mean, just totally. It was, um, to where, as today, I feel like it's blasphemous to be pledging allegiance in the church because, like, oh wow, this is, uh, this is the house of God. And, you know, like, we can look Scripture where people literally laid down their lives so that wouldn't happen, you know, and in different stories. And yet you're right, the way it was all combined. Um, also speaking of the Church of the Nazarene, somebody like James Dobson, who, you know, was very much Church of the Nazarene guy, that, um, he was always one that like got pointed out like, oh, he's one of ours, you know, uh, whenever we would talk about things, um, especially as it related to parenting.

And you know Oh, go ahead. I'm sorry.

No, no, go ahead, please.

Uh, well, I was gonna say what's interesting— I'm so glad you brought him up because it— and it's interesting to me to hear your perspective, like, growing up as a Nazarene, because a lot of times I think Dobson is branded as kind of generically evangelical, but he does not make sense if you don't know about the Nazarenes, right? Like, because he— I write in the book how he, um, and I'm not the first person who's noticed, um, you know, what he, he does with psychology. Um, there's a great book— Sarah Mosliner has a great book about that. But, um, one of the things he does is he secularizes holiness codes, essentially, like the, the ideal way of raising your child and the level of attention that you're supposed to pay to your child, which is like, in my experience— I'm a parent— it's an overwhelming, like, task that that, that Focus on the Family and the Dobson organization sets out for people. And I think it makes a lot more sense if you think about he is one or two— he's one, one generation removed from those really radical holiness people who were like, we're not going to go to movies, don't even think about dancing, you know, social dancing, or, you know. So I think like he makes the most sense to me as a Nazarene guy. Like, yeah, oh, you know, because if you think about it, I mean, one thing a lot of people are very— I feel like holiness people are not well understood just generally. One of the things that I always try to remind people is, you know, like these kinds of holiness codes in their original forms are not about oppression or legalism or anything like that. They're about the, the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit. So like the Spirit is moving in you and doing this in, in you, and you demonstrate the work of the Spirit through really radical holy acts. Um, and that is not how they're often seen, you know, like it's, it's, it's often seen. And of course the meaning of those, those codes change over time. So they, they, you know, obviously there are communities where they are quite legalistic and, and and that. But I think, you know, you got to keep in mind, like, those revival meetings, like, what's God, you know, doing in your life and how exciting it is to experience the presence of God and you want to respond.

So anyway, yeah, well, it was, it was just interesting too, because I, I mean, all of that is— I don't know how many times I could hear on the radio growing up because Dobson would have a radio show. So you might hear, you might hear one of the CCM artists you know, like on that show. But you're right, as one who's— I'm in grad school right now, and I had a psychology class last semester, and they would very much, you know, like Dobson is not a good one to listen to for psychology. Like, he's not the— like, if you think— you're probably a Nazarene if you think, you know, or somebody in the CCM tradition if you think he's good at that type of thing. Matter of fact, let me tell you, go the opposite way from Dobson because he basically is teaching you to abuse your children, and it's, you know, it's crazy, you know, some of the things that we have. But a lot of that comes out of, again, like you talked about— I love how you spoke about the Holiness Code. Some of it, where it starts with a good heart, can sometimes become very strict authoritarian things. And it's interesting to see the way that that plays out in music. Even the passage that I just read, where church starts kind of forming into this sort of national identity, where America is the kingdom of God. And then we'll see it, and, and you go on throughout the book, there's so much to talk about. And it's really more towards the end of the book where we kind of get into our present situation where we're still getting into trouble with that. My dog might start barking in a second. Oh, don't worry.

That's totally fine. No worries at all.

But it's fascinating because music is such an emotional thing that we have. And the funny thing about growing up Nazarene is we were always taught to be fearful of our emotions. You know, which is— it's, it's interesting because services could get so emotional. And yet you were always challenged to— I often was discouraged about listening, like, don't listen to contemporary Christian music because it's too emotional and you don't want to get your emotions involved, you know, forgetting too that, well, we're humans, you know, made in the image of God. We do have emotions. It's not like—

it's really I'm glad you brought that up because a lot of, a lot of the stuff— I mean, now, you know, because you've read the book, but a lot of the stuff that I talk about is how even contemporary Christian music had a pretty specific emotional range, you know, like, of the— some of the more fringe music explored more extreme forms of human emotion that I think both you and I would agree are just a part of the human experience and totally fine, present in the Psalms, you know, like they're not outside of the Christian tradition by any means, but that the, like, a lot of the sound of contemporary Christian music was, um, you know, to use a radio slogan, positive and encouraging. Um, so not meant to have really high highs or low lows. Yeah, um, just kind of stay in this, you know, like, pretty mellow lane. Um, and a lot of young people, because, you know, being a teen, being an adolescent is such an all-over-the-place experience for most people, and, you know, hormones just going crazy and you're all over the place. And so for a lot of teens, it felt— they chafed, you know, with those boundaries, in part because they weren't able to find music that reflected just the really turbulent, turbulent time of being an adolescent. Um, although there were some, there were some, especially in the 1990s, um, I talk about some, um, indie West Coast labels that really that, that, um, it had music that of many varieties that, that was able to kind of tap into those really like intense emotions, um, that you can kind of feel. But I think it's interesting. I think you're right that a lot of, um, forms of evangelicalism were leery because they felt that the emotions were supposed to be subservient to a godly intellect. I grew up in a tradition that was like emotions all the livelong day. That's a whole other story.

Emotivism forever.

Absolutely. Yep. Yep.

Well, you know, I think this conversation is very interesting too, because to me, music without emotion is dull as can be. And sometimes, you know, you mentioned Piper, and I've been a guest at the, like, the Sing Conference with—

Oh, right. Okay.

And so I've got to spend a lot of time, you know, backstage with a lot of these artists and the people who are speaking at the events and stuff. And it's interesting because like a conference like the Getty Conference is very— it is CCM, like on some level, like it's contemporary. And yet it's, it's so tied to like, like him writing. It's almost like every song has to be a like, here's your didactic students, like every, every song, like it's, it's trying to put emotion into something that is almost like a strict pattern of this is the doctrine and you have to learn it type thing. They do it very well and it doesn't come off like that all the time. But that is kind of— it almost sometimes to me kind of robs the heart just a little bit of it for sometimes writers like, oh, I wonder what they would have said if they could just put in what they were feeling in that. And yet it's, it's, you know, you contrast that with the emotivism of our day where it just seems like there is no layer underneath for anything to stand on, you know, because it's all just kind of what I feel and what I want in the moment. And this week, we were actually reading Augustine for one of my classes, and Augustine was like, almost leery of Christians of his day even going to the theater to watch a play. And he was especially leery of them being actors, you know, because, well, if you start acting, right, someone that could get in your heart and could become who you are. So you need to stray away from that. And, you know, it needs to be up here in your head and not your heart. So this battle is just like eternal when we talk about this.

So true.

Heart battle. And somehow, I think sometimes to me, the best, like Christian music is the kind that can intersect with both. I think of someone like Andrew Peterson, who's, who has such— I mean, is he worthy? I mean, is there a more perfect song in the world than that one? You know, one that that like gets to the heart of humanity, what we go through, the highs and the lows, but is actually so strong and built on such like powerful doctrine of scripture. And so to me, he's sort of like what we aspire to as, you know, like writers in, in CCM type music. So I don't remember where I was going with all that. Sorry.

Oh no, well, I mean, I— one thing that you said that stood out to me was, um, I mean, among many things, but one is the is the restrictions of the form of the music. So something that I mentioned in the book is that there are, um, if you look at who actually produced contemporary Christian music, the vast majority are either Holiness, Baptist, Pentecostal, or charismatic. And charismatics would be the, the kind of cousin-sibling tradition to Pentecostals. And they're all, they're all very closely related, and most of them come from the American the South and the West Coast, although there are— there's always exceptions, but you see like a fairly consistent community, you know, a couple of communities, and they're kind of going— they're trading songs back and forth with each other. And if you think of the, the format of radio, it lets you know like how, how the form itself can kind of be a theological determinant, you know. So if you, if you have certain Baptist, Holiness, or Pentecostal or charismatic ideas this, and you want to get them out in 4 minutes, you only have 4 minutes, you— it actually makes you have to change some things around a little bit. So you might spend less time on the suffering and the sorrow because you want to make sure you get to the resurrection, you know. So there's a lot of songs— like, a common critique from theological, theologically minded people is that contemporary Christian music is too happy like it's, it's, you know, it doesn't really give enough time to the sorrowful voice or lamenting voice or like even like rage and anger that you find in the Psalms, for example, kind of the biblical standard of, of, um, songs and, and, and poetry and stuff. And to say nothing of like Lamentations. Um, but anyway, so But, but you can see sort of how the form plays a role. And when I think about when you were talking about the kind of didactic hymns, traditionally those, those work pretty well because you can have, you know, if you've done— I'd guess you've done hymnsings. You can do 8 verses, you can get a lot in 8 verses, but you're not going to get that song on the radio now, you know. So just the way people consume music. Kind of puts restrictions, um, around it. One of the things that I was sort of— it, it actually kind of made me laugh because, because I did grow up in this tradition— was realizing that charismatic and Pentecostal people, the, the music of the church, um, was slow to get on the radio, uh, even though now the, uh, a large percentage of of, you know, contemporary praise and worship songs are written from charismatic or Pentecostal congregations. So they've— they won those worship wars. But one of the things that kept them off the radio and kind of kept them off the radar from a lot of non-charismatic or Pentecostal churches is the fact that they didn't like short songs, right?

I was gonna say, it's hard to put a 12-minute song on a radio.

Yes. And I talked to radio promoters who were like, oh gosh, you know, we really liked Hillsong, but the problem was they'd send us these 9-minute songs, and we're like, we can't get that on the radio. So, um, people like David Crowder, um, oftentimes would adapt those types of songs coming from Baptist networks, adapt those songs to kind of— to a respectable 4 minutes. Um, and they were huge hits, but it took a long time for the charismatics to get, get, get on the radio because they're like, no, never mind, it's a 26-minute song, or whatever.

That's funny. Well, and, you know, he's not really in your book that I remember, but somebody like Sufjan Stevens, who is right, you know, like, just totally doesn't care about radio anymore. And as far as we know, at least claims Christianity, you know, sort of where he lands. But his music, I mean, he does truly have like the longest songs you can imagine and yet became so popular and had such a following. Yeah, both in and outside of the Christian world. So it's kind of interesting to me. One thing that I think your book kind of highlights throughout is when, when CCM music does really well, it's usually because it is— it has found a way. Someone like Charlie Peacock, for instance, where we started our conversation today, they kind of are the rock that makes the pond ripple. And, and then a lot of CCM artists try to replicate that. And pop music does this too. And instead of being the rock that causes the ripple, they're just trying to be ripples, ripples that look like the original splash, you know, that came in, which I think is a big argument of a lot of contemporary Christian music is, oh, it's just trying to sound like this or it's trying to sound like that. But in its defense, as someone who writes and sings music too, we're always kind of formed by the thing that's around us too. Like we kind of you know, if a Christian song starts sounding like that song on the radio, we might also consider this other side of it. It's like, wow, my relationship to God really means a lot to me. And I also like this band who I happen to sound like sometimes because I just love that band, you know? And sure, it's not always the cash grab people think it is. Some, some of it is because a business is a business, you know, when it comes down to it. But there is something about people who are writing music, who they have just— they've been so inspired by the love of God in their life, and the kind of music they play just might happen to sound like another artist, you know?

Yeah.

So, yeah, to kind of give some grace for that too, I guess, is in the midst of it, because I think you write about that as well. I mean, you do have people that you mentioned, like I was just with Phil Keggy last weekend. He came up and did a concert and we hung out a little bit.

Oh, amazing.

And he was one that was originally, you know, he's kind of one of those people that that was— I mean, yeah, he sounds like Paul McCartney, but he's not like Paul McCartney.

Like, oh yeah, no, no, no, no. So like, yeah, one of the things I tried to talk about is that these, these— is that this is the history of the business, not the artists, right? Because artists have very little control over how people receive them, right? Like, yeah, you know, you're an artist, you put yourself out there people are going to have so many different kinds of reactions to what you've just done. And some of them may align with your intent, and then some of them may be like, what? How did you even— you know? And so for somebody, you know, like Phil Keaghy, um, I think, you know, I write about him as part of a collective of people in the coming out of these charismatic um, they called the Jesus Movement. Yeah, people who— young people who have these like wild mystical experiences with God respond, um, through art generally. Like there were cartoonists and, and poets and, and— but the musicians are the ones that most of us remember. So, you know, he's out there making music. It's the business folks who see him and say Oh, you know what, like, and of course he's influenced by Paul McCartney. No one— who isn't? Who isn't, right? Yeah, like, good luck finding someone in the later part of the 20th century who's not. So of course, um, and but, but for the, the, um, industry itself, that, um, for, for most of its history, contemporary Christian music existed philosophically to care for evangelical youths, you know, to keep them in the church, to give them music that was for their edification and, and, um, and aligned with certain conservative ideals and American patriotism and all that kind of stuff. But, um, so Paul McCartney is, is not, you know, super in control of what people do with his image, right? You know, he puts his music out there and it gets branded in a certain way. Um, and So, but, but you can see that if, if, you know, if say you're a youth pastor or a Christian mom, um, because the core customers of contemporary Christian music, the people who were buying a lot of the records, or at least the marketing people understood their audience to be Christian moms, um, who, who get known as an eventually by an aggregate name, Becky's.

Becky's.

Um, yeah. So, so those, those women, what do they want? They want, you know, safety, health for their children. They want all the things that James Dobson is telling them that they are responsible to provide for their children, which no pressure, by the way. It's like these women are under a ton of pressure. Okay. And, you know, say you go to a bookstore and you see someone who says, oh, your kid is into Paul McCartney. Here, have this. This is Phil Keaggy. Now, Phil Keaggy is a legend. Everybody knows that. If you know anything about contemporary Christian music. But, um, so he doesn't have control over that transaction at all, but it still happened, like, all the time. And I, you know, most kids who were raised in 1980s, 1990s, early aughts, um, in the communities that, that supported, um, contemporary Christian music have a memory of this thing called the comparison charts.

Yes.

Do you remember these?

Yes, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. So if you like this, you'll like— yeah.

Yeah, and so it's like that. I tried to, to be pretty clear in the introduction, this isn't really from the artist's perspective. And I talked to a lot of artists, and of course, you know, they, they would feel how I would feel, like, you know, I'm seeing people out here, they're reading this book and they're coming away with all kinds of things that I didn't intend. It's frustrating, you know, like, yeah, what are you gonna do? You can't really control that. So from their perspective I can't— I would be frustrated if I were them because I, you know, they didn't necessarily— several people that I quote in the book, you know, they— their image and their music gets used to support, um, social agendas that they're not actually on board with.

Yeah.

Um, and so it— so to me what's interesting is, is how that business functions and what it's supposed to do for evangelical communities, not really whether or Phil Keagy is himself, um, and it's not about whether or not he sounds like him. It's whether or not bookstore— Christian bookstores and their core customers, Beckys, thought that.

Yeah, yeah, it's just, it's fascinating to me, the whole— and, and you're right, the finding out more of the business side, um, I, I found out a lot, you know, that I didn't realize. And, and it's funny because I'm, I'm more friends oftentimes with people who are artists than I am people who are on the business side. And I love how you put that. Like, the artist doesn't necessarily have any say in what people— how people are going to perceive the whole Taylor Swift thing right now might be a good example of that. Yeah, because I just asked on a social media post this morning, I said, okay, I give up. Why is everybody mad at her? Like, you know, on this one side, like, It doesn't seem like she said anything much. She's just making her music and she shows up at a ballgame, you know?

Oh, totally.

Totally. So that's a good example of like, like, yeah, her, her, it's not going to even matter. I mean, she could come out today and say something completely opposite of what they, the, the, the image is or whatever, and it wouldn't matter, you know, just because what we say is not nearly as important as the sort of the public image that everybody has in their brain.

Oh, totally. You, you know, have you seen, um, do you know about Star Wars? I would guess you know about Star Wars a little bit.

Yeah. Okay. Okay.

So there's a movie and it's, it's not, it's not safe for the whole family language-wise. So I should, I feel like I should say that.

But, uh, especially since we're among holiness-influenced friends, plugged in magazine would give you a warning, right?

Plugged in would definitely. Uh, but anyway, so this movie called The People vs. George Lucas And it is about fans of Star Wars who are frustrated with George Lucas for what he did with the Star Wars franchise. And what you realize— I mean, it's hilarious. There's so many— but there's a lot of cussing. But anyway, but one of the things that you realize is that at some point, Star Wars does not really belong to George Lucas. You know, it's like public property. And I think with people like— especially the bigger stars. So, and, um, people like Amy Grant, you know, she is out there by all accounts. Um, I should say that people are so protective of her. I talked to lots of people and they were like, she is the kindest, realest, most wonderful person. And I can understand why they feel protective of her because she did face a lot of criticism for doing just bonkers things like wearing a leopard print jacket, you know, like what, or whatever. Um, so so, but she cannot control that. And it's just like, like Taylor Swift, I think she, they become avatars. Like we just, we put whatever our expectations are for, in the case of Amy Grant, for evangelical women, whatever, we just put that conversation on them. And they're, you know, I actually came away from this empathizing with people people like her, and that, that is probably not surprising, but also empathizing with the task of evangelical parenting in the late 20th century. Because people like Dobson and, and, you know, Gothard and just lots of other advice-y type, um, parent gurus in, in the evangelical space, they were— they presented such an intense vision of the task of parenting. And I mean, I, I'm a parent, like, that would stress me out. So I actually came, came away with a lot of empathy for the parents. You know, it's easy— there's a lot of conversation about, um, to be had about the potentially negative effects of those choices, um, on the children. And, and I'm familiar with that and, you know, lived a lot of it. So, but, but to me, I was like, well, what would I do if everyone was telling me, you know, this is super high stakes. If your kid listens to Prince, they're like going to hell.

Yeah.

You know, I think I'd be scared. I think I'd try and find a not anywhere near the incredibleness of Prince alternative, you know, for my kid. Um, so, so I, yeah, I I think that, that part, you know, that's an open question. How do you pass the faith down generation to generation? It did not get solved in contemporary Christian music, um, and it's like the task of every generation of Christians to, to take up.

Well, and one thing that's amazing about, about your book, by the way, is I, I want to point everybody back to— I can't believe we've almost been talking an hour. I'm really wanting our conversation, but if you have just a few more minutes, Oh no. I just— it deals with so much and the way that the music gets branded. And then not only for like church purposes, but then it gets into the way that it gets kind of taken over and married to. And a lot of this is due to some of the publishers and people who own the magazines and the people who own the radio stations. And it goes to like really extreme far right, kind of right wing. News media outlets and stuff, so much to the point that a lot of people have trouble distinguishing one from the other at times, you know. So you'll have, you'll have, uh, you know, Christian radio stations that play Fox News exclusively, you know, like as their, you know, here's a news update and here comes this whatever, and it's just all right-wing talking points. And it doesn't necessarily sound a lot like the kingdom of God, but it sounds very much like whatever right-wing talking points going on at the time. So your book is very interesting, kind of in the way that it kind of ends up and following this whole history of music. And again, for good or for ill, there are tools that it can be used in good ways and very difficult ways to reconcile as well. And sometimes it's, as you talked about, getting to know a lot of the artists too. A lot of them, their hearts are breaking, you know, to see the music industry go the way it has. Has. And they're asking the same questions and shaking their head just as much as anybody else. Like, what in the world is happening in this world? Some don't have a place to play their music anymore. It almost feels like, because unless you're willing to compromise who you feel like you are, not just as an artist, but even as a Christian, sometimes you can't make Christian music, which is very— it's a very difficult place to be. But the ones who can, I think it's— is it Shawn Foy? It looks like Foy or something, but is it?

Yes.

Yeah, who is not— I couldn't tell you anything he's ever written. I'm not sure if he even writes songs or whatever, but he holds these huge— they're basically just right-wing political rallies, you know, with, with all driven by CCM and things like that. In kind of our time closing today, would you mind talking just a little bit about kind of, kind of where a lot of it sits today, where it's kind of intertwined in places that I feel like can be just as hazardous to the soul as we would say. It's almost like the things that our parents were worried about secular things doing to us in the '80s is almost some of the things that Christianity has combined itself with today, you know, in many ways. And I think— and I'm not trying to like point fingers at people, but it's just one of those platforms. It's like, yeah, we have trouble seeing it, but it's kind of that thing that our parents were scared of that's now is completely embraced. By, uh, one part of the church anyway. But yeah. Wow.

Okay. There's so much there.

Yeah. I mean, that's not a very, very well-asked question.

No, no, no. I know. I just, you know, it was, it was a really great, um, uh, jumping off point and my brain's going a bunch of different directions. So I'm going to, I'll try, I'll, I'll pick, I'll pick a lane. Um, I think one thing that you said really stood out to me because it made me think of the very first part of our conversation talking about holiness people. And I think, um, you're totally right, and you're not alone in the kind of dismay that many people who were raised with the moral codes of the 1980s and 1990s, even if they don't even subscribe to them now, but the dismay they feel watching their parents' generation, um, make a what feels like an about-face when it comes to just moral codes, like don't sleep with someone who's not your spouse or something, you know, something like that. So in the person— and Donald Trump is the person who gets held up, but I think just the idea that that community would do that, I think, you know, I'm— I am not the only one. People like Anthea Butler and Gerardo Martí and Kristin Kobus du Mé have done a great job of coming at different historical lenses for showing how it's actually not that surprising if you look at other priorities in, in like evangelical communities. And I think, um, if you look at it through the lens of music, the ascent of a certain kind of charismatic Christian, predominantly white, but not exclusively, figures like Sean Foyt make a certain kind of sense because he combines the right-wing political activism with with the charismatic, um, world that had been brewing for some time. I write about how Amy Grant and Michael W. Smith were involved in a really charismatic church in Nashville. So that, that's well in the DNA. Um, and people like Carmen kind of presented this really dramatic Pentecostalized world. Um, so you can see that stuff, um, percolating, but Foyt kind of puts puts those, those things together. And the fact that he has an audience tells you how much the, the nature of what we call evangelicalism has changed. The fact that he can have these like kind of prophecy healing-y type, um, services, and, and it— he's been on the Reawakened Tour, which is sort of like a revival meeting meets swap meet meets magic show meets conspiracy convention meets MAGA festival meets a lot of other things. Um, you know, some of the— a Trump or two has appeared on it, and Michael Flynn. And anyway, the fact that that is, um, uh, not the fringe anymore, um, in the activities of the religious right lets us know Oh, this is maybe not the same thing, you know, like what, what Jerry Falwell was doing, what Pat Robertson even was doing. This is like the, the, the people who are engaged in this are, have been in many ways transformed. And they're, they're worshiping in ways that they haven't done before. They're engaging politically in ways that they haven't before. Like, how often did you hear Jerry Falwell Sr. talk about, um, like spiritual warfare and like discerning the times? You know, like, that, that was not— I mean, how often did you see a shofar being blown at a Billy Graham crusade? I challenge anyone to find it. Probably somebody will.

They'll probably—

I'm gonna find it. But, um, but those are things that charismatics do, you know, like, um, and so, and you saw that at the US Capitol, during the insurrection attempt. So I think people like Voight show us that. But I do want to end, if, if I could, on a note of what I hope is hope, which is to say that the market of contemporary Christian music has, I think, become diminished as the institutions within evangelicalism have changed. Many of them are in decline, and some of them have just so fundamentally changed. And then the internet and streaming technology really displaced replaced a lot of the, the culture. Um, and Christian bookstores— the demise of Christian bookstores has created like a big gap in, in terms of like how people get the music and everything. So quote unquote contemporary Christian music does not exist in the same way that it did in the heyday, like the late 1990s, early aughts. But that does not mean that there are no Christians out there making good art. There's tons of them. And I think through some of the same tech changes that undermine CCM, they empower artists to find their audience. So there are lots of people who are creating beautiful art. They are not captured in Christian radio playlists maybe, but they're out there. And through the magic of technology, you know, through Spotify, through YouTube, they have like robust audiences who are really engaged. Yeah, um, with what they So, I mean, on the one hand, there's— things have changed quite radically. But on the other hand, there are still people out there. I was on a podcast, Good Patron Podcast.

Oh yeah, it's a great one.

Oh my gosh, it's so great. Like, just the idea that, you know, get out there, support good art that doesn't necessarily reside in a label or at a label doesn't, you know, you won't find it on Christian radio, but it's still really beautiful art. That people are out there, they're doing stuff. So I don't feel, you know, it's, it's, but maybe I'm just a true charismatic, I've got a really optimistic streak. But I just think like, people are still out there doing great stuff. The world has changed, but that doesn't mean that, that those people don't exist anymore.

Well, and I think you're right to think that way too. And we are people of hope. And I love Jürgen Moltmann's definition of, of hope, that it's anticipated joy. And so I, I love how you kind of bring out— I, I even feel it through the, the reading of the book. It's— this is not a gloomy book. It's a, it's a serious book, but I don't think it ends us at a place of hopelessness. I actually think you're right. There's a lot of good, uh, still to come. And, uh, and I, I also love too— we, we won't even have time to talk about this today because we're way past where I plan to go, But I just think even the way that you do shine a spotlight on, hey, these are not just like copycat people. These are people who really had some creative genius behind them, too, you know, and there's a reason that they've stood the test of time, just like the people that you mentioned today. They do find an audience, you know, whenever it comes time for them to be heard. And, and some of the best that's worth hearing, we do hear it eventually, I think. So, yeah, very good. Absolutely. Well, Leah, you have been so generous with your time today. So thank you so much. And as I say to my guests every week, I get to say to you today, Leah Payne, thank you for being one of the voices in my head this week. And if everything works out, the outro music is playing right now. So I want to thank you. There you go. And thank you. You can go to my website anytime, listeners, rickleejames.com. And if the technology works the way it's supposed to. I think from this podcast, wherever you listen, you should be able to click on the link in the show notes and go straight to Leah's new book. And it's a really great one. I hope that everybody will check it out. I really enjoyed it. The book is called God Gave Rock and Roll to You. And I'm very grateful, very grateful for your time today, Leah. Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you so much.