Guest Jack O'Donnell - Episode 411 of Voices In My Head (The Rick Lee James Podcast)

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Give it a try today. Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, a songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more with friends, colleagues, and sometimes just by myself. Now make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes or by tweeting at me @RickLeeJames on Twitter. And please join my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. By the way, in case you're interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the voices in my head. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of Voices in My Head.

Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I'm your host, Rick Lee James, and I'm so glad that you are here with us for another great conversation today. Jack O'Donnell is a successful businessman, a bestselling author, and an athlete. He has been the CEO, president, or chief operating officer for some of America's most recognizable entrepreneurs, including Steve Wynn, Steve Case, Merv Griffin, and Donald Trump. Yes, the former president, Donald Trump. To say that he has worked with some of the best and some of the worst leaders would be an understatement. Jack has been featured in America's most prominent media outlets, from CNN and MSNBC, regularly featured on OutFront with Erin Burnett, The Beat with Ari Melber, Anderson Cooper, and others. He has been widely quoted by leading columnists from The New York Times, Washington Post, Boston Globe, and Politico. He has written numerous op-eds, being published in Politico and local newspapers across the country. He has also been prominently featured in documentaries on CNN, Netflix, and PBS. I'm excited to have a chance to get to know a bit more about him today, his time working for Donald Trump, and his thoughts on why Donald Trump has so captivated the imagination of the white conservative subculture. Jack O'Donnell Welcome to Voices in My Head.

Good morning, Rick. Thank you for having me. It's my pleasure.

Well, I'm so glad to have a chance to be able to visit with you for a while this morning. I know that you get a lot of questions about working for Donald Trump, obviously because he was the former president of the United States and he's still in the media, a little less than he was at one time. But before we get to any of that, I really am interested in you as a person. I do find you fascinating because you have done so much, and I do think you really have a fascinating story. You have described yourself as a survivor of childhood trauma, losing both of your parents at an early age, and, and I'm sorry for that. And I wonder if you would mind maybe sharing some of your personal story with us as we begin today, and how's that shaped you into the person that you are?

Yeah, sure, Rick. I don't mind doing that at all. I think you and most people know that our childhoods have a great deal of impact and influence on who we become later in life. And, you know, and that means for the good or the bad. And in my case, it's a combination of both, unfortunately. When I was 8 years old, you know, I lost my father. And, you know, through an illness, he actually was— had been sick for some time, and then he suffered a surgical infection and wound up killing him rather suddenly. I had an incredibly independent, strong mother. And when my dad died, she was pregnant with their 5th child, my brother Dan. And, you know, there was a lot of sympathy in the family and people wanted to take care of us. And she just said— we lived in Chicago at the time— and she said, "No, you know what, I'm gonna strike out on my own. I can survive." And she literally put us on a train from Chicago to Denver. And she rented a home in Boulder, Colorado with no furniture in it, you know, except beds. You know, she was able to get beds and, you know, she started a life as a secretary and, you know, in supporting us, just an incredibly strong woman. And so that was my new life. And again, unfortunately, that lasted about 4 years. She developed breast cancer And 4 years later, when I was 12, you know, she wound up getting the best of her. And so, you know, that was, you know, certainly, you know, both of those experiences are part of my childhood trauma, only part of it, because I mean, literally the day my mother died, I was on a plane back to Chicago with my brothers and sisters. Fortunately, we had an aunt and uncle that had the financial wherewithal to take all of us in. So there wasn't that threat of being separated, even though there was some talk of it early on. It really was never a reality. From the, you know, the first night that my mother died, I was sleeping in my new home in Chicago. And so I was very fortunate that way. The unfortunate part about it and the continuation of the trauma, as much as who became my new parents because they adopted us, as much as they loved us, it was a household affected by addiction. You know, my new father was an alcoholic and very successful man, but You know, so I became exposed to a significant amount of the dysfunction that alcohol brings into the family. And, you know, I literally became their caretaker in the sense that it consumed me that their alcoholism wouldn't kill them one day. And so it was a difficult childhood from that standpoint in that household. So that's, you know, that's, you know, without— I mean, I could talk all day about that subject matter because, you know, a lot of people know that alcoholism is a generational issue, and it certainly affected— I always say I feel lucky I dodged the bullet, but, you know, the You know, 3 of my brothers didn't, you know, the impact of growing up in an alcoholic family affected them and they followed the same path. All 3 of them are in recovery now, so that's a beautiful thing. But, you know, it takes its toll when you live in an alcoholic or an addictive environment.

Yeah, well, and I find that so interesting too because, you know, over the years you've been so successful in business and you've been in such diverse fields, and you've been in the hospitality business, and you also work now in behavioral health and working, helping people recover from addiction. And in those fields, you know, you do rely on, you know, serving others. And I, as you tell that story even right now and how you sort of were managing and helping with your new parents with their alcoholism and sort of managing them, you know, you really were sort of serving them as a child, at least as I hear you telling the story. Maybe I'm hearing you incorrectly, but it seems like you were almost, even as a child and maybe as a young adult, kind of in that role of kind of managing them in some ways. Am I hearing you correctly that you were sort of doing at home what you were kind of doing later in the business world in some ways?

Well, look, from a clinical standpoint, they will say that I became a codependent or an enabler or a caretaker of my parents. And that's all true. I mean, look, you know, I had role reversal when I was a child. I mean, I was the one that had to go to the police station to pick up my parents when they were, you know, when they got in trouble. Sure. And they were going to do that for me. But, you know, taking care of others really is part of both from a career standpoint, both the entertainment industry is, and that's really how I describe my hospitality and casino background. You know, we are there to serve the people and make sure that they have a positive, good experience. And on the behavioral health and the addiction side, some of the work that I've done there, you know, it is the same. You know, you are there with a sole purpose of taking care of those individuals. And in this case, in one case, it's seeing that they have a good time, right? And in the other case, it is, you know, seeing what you can do to help them get healthy. So, yeah, I mean, I, I mean, I, I mean, I see the, you know, I see the comparison to some extent. And there were, believe it or not, Rick, there were when I transitioned from the casino industry into wellness and behavioral health, there were a lot of similarities from a business standpoint. So people sometimes look at it and they go, God, what a strange combination. And on the surface it is, but from a purely business standpoint in terms of operating the business itself, there were just so many similarities that it was an easy transition for me.

Oh, sure. And, and, you know, let's, let's talk about that a little bit later. And I was hoping we could do that later on. And as we, as we flow into that part of your story. But let me say first though, because I know it's been many years since that happened, but that just seems like such a profound loss of both of your parents, by the way. And I just, I want to say I'm sorry for that too. And I know it's been some time, but even though the breaking may not still be there, I know that the aching probably still remains at the loss of your parents after all that time. And so I'm I'm sorry, I just want to express that.

Well, thanks. And if you don't mind, I'll make a comment about it because maybe it will help some people. You know, you're right, the pain is there. I mean, I still have days, you know, at 66 years old where I cry and I miss my mother. You know, that's part of the grief process that never goes away for people. But the thing that's important for me, Rick, just to say this, is that, you know, self-care, taking care of yourself. I stuffed a lot of those feelings for many, many years. And then I, fortunately or unfortunately, I had a child that had to go into treatment for addiction. And during that family week, my childhood resurfaced. Okay. And, and this was just 6 years ago. And, you know, I wound up having to go back to that same facility for a week of a survivors program is what they called it. And it was at the Meadows in Wickenburg, Arizona. And it's just a phenomenal program. And I was able to finally You know, at 60 years old, I was finally able to do some of the work that I wished I had had access to, you know, a long, long time ago. So it is something you have to keep looking at because that grief stays with you for sure.

Wow.

Well, thank you for saying that. And I— it takes as long as it takes. And I'm really— I'm grateful to you for saying that. And I hope that people listening will really hear that and take that to heart today for sure. Well, let's talk a bit, if you don't mind, about some of your work in the casino business because it's probably something that is pretty foreign to most of my listeners, for sure, just wondering about that end of things. And yet I think it flows into the conversation and into a lot of the business that you've done. And again, as we'll talk about later some more, hopefully, into some of the recovery work that you do now. From what I've read, the person who really gave you your big break was a man named Steve Wynn. And I wonder if you could tell us about some of your time working with him and who Steve Wynn was and what he meant to you.

Sure. And, you know, like everything, Rick, you know, it's a little bit complicated because, you know, Steve, you know, Wynn has his own issues and certainly has had some very public issues that, you know, are disturbing, you know, in terms of how he lost his business. But back in the days that I worked with him, Steve was a revolutionary in the gaming industry. He was a visionary in the gaming industry and he was pure genius. I don't— regardless of his issues today, it doesn't negate that he was by far the smartest individual I've ever worked for. And he was the kind of guy that I was fortunate enough. I was a a senior vice president in his organization, but I dealt with him almost on a daily basis, and I learned something from him every day. And he was a tough guy to work for at times, very demanding. I mean, he could be— he could call you when he was in Atlantic City, he could call you into his office at 3 o'clock in the afternoon and say, you know, what are you doing tonight? And you might think, oh, he's probably going to go to— he's probably going to ask me to dinner. And he would say, well, okay, well, you know, I want you to fly to Vegas with me in an hour. So you'd get on his plane and fly to Vegas and you wouldn't go home for a week. Wow. You know, so he could be demanding that way. But the interesting thing about him is that I always learned something from him. I mean, and even I'll tell you a quick story about him. He asked me to attend a board meeting and make a presentation one time to the board members about some of our marketing strategies. And in the midst of the meeting, he got very angry at something that I was saying and an example that I gave of a direct mail piece that I sent out. And he was furious about it. And he crumpled up the direct mail piece and he literally threw it and it bounced off my head. Kind of an embarrassing scenario in front of the board of directors, right? And so I got through the meeting and I went home that day early because I had said, well, I don't really want to work with this man anymore. This is just too intense and demeaning because that was demeaning that day. And the next morning He called me and he said, "What are you doing for breakfast?" It was early and I said, "Mm, I don't know, I'm gonna go to work in a bit." He said, "Come over and have breakfast with me." And so I went to his house. He had a house in Margate, just down from the casino in Atlantic City. And he said, "First off, I want to apologize." He said, "Number one, I shouldn't have acted that way at the board meeting, but number two, I haven't explained some things to you about my vision for what we're— our product. And we sat at that table in his kitchen for the next 5 hours, and he walked me through how his mind works and how he envisions every little detail from why the bathrooms are this way, from why the entryway is this, to why the letters have to— we send out have to have gold foil print on them. I mean, he walked me through and explained his philosophy.

Wow.

And, you know, for that, I walked out of that meeting one day being humiliated, the next day saying, I don't ever want to leave this man. He's, you know, he's, you know, it was phenomenal. And that was Steve Wynn, and that's why I had so much respect for him.

Hmm.

Wow.

That's amazing. And wow. And for him to, it seems rare today for For a person to apologize for one thing, it's an interesting thing. It just seems like a lost art almost, and it means so much when a person will actually do that. As inappropriate as it may have been, you know, for him to act that way, that does mean a lot for people just to actually humble themselves enough to say, "I'm sorry," and that really does mean a lot. So, wow, what an interesting story, and then to spend that much time— what a mind to be able to even have that much reasoning behind all of those ideas. You know, that's an amazing thing to think through. Well, thank you for sharing that, and that actually helps with this next question, because I remember reading in your book, and I was brushing up on it because it'd been several years since I had read your book, Trumped, and I was reading and recalling that you had decided you were going to take a job. I think it was after about 13 years, and you might have to correct me a little bit if my details are off just a little bit, but I think you had been working for Mr. Wynn for about 13 years and that you had decided to take a job working at a casino for Donald Trump, and you had called Mr. Wynn to tell him you were going to resign and take a job for Mr. Trump, and he told you on the phone, he said, "Please, please, Jack, don't do that. Don't go there. Go anywhere, but don't go there. I'll call Jack Davis. You'll be hired in 2 seconds down at Resorts." And I just wonder, first of all, are my details correct? But then what did you make of that when your friend and mentor, someone who you had worked for for so long, would plead with you in that way about not going to work for Donald Trump and why he would say that.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Rick. I worked a little. I was in— I'd been in the gaming industry for about that amount of time, but the 5 years prior I had worked for Steve in Atlantic City and suddenly it was really wasn't planned, but suddenly Steve got an offer to sell the casino in Atlantic City to Valley. And he took the offer. It was a great offer. And quite frankly, it's how he was able to begin modernization of Las Vegas by opening the Mirage with those funds. But so Steve, the day that he announced that he was leaving Atlantic City, he offered me a job in Las Vegas. And, you know, I was always kind of proud because I was the only person that he actually offered a job immediately to move to Las Vegas. But after, you know, listen, you know, there's career and then there's family. And I had a long discussion with my wife and we decided that we would prefer to, to raise our child in New Jersey versus Las Vegas. And so I had had a standing offer for a year prior to that, the sale of the casino, the Golden Nugget, that, you know, to come over to Trump Organization. And so I called my friend Steve Hyde, who was the president there, and said, I'm ready to make the move. And he said, start tomorrow if you want. And so I did tell Steve when And he was disappointed, number one, that I wasn't going to Las Vegas, but he really, you know, at the time had no respect for Donald Trump. And he knew him. I didn't. And, you know, he just didn't have faith that Trump knew anything about the industry or that I could actually learn anything. From Trump, and that was what was driving him. He viewed it as, as I might be wasting my talent working for a guy like that.

Okay.

And I think that there was a competitive thing too, that, you know, he just didn't want me working for a guy that, you know, he viewed as a competitor, not just in the industry, but really for You know, from like an iconic standpoint in the gaming industry, you know, there was Steve Wynn and Donald Trump, and that was really it at the time, right? So he just didn't want me going to work for him, but he knew something that I didn't. I mean, you're absolutely right. He knew that there wasn't, you know, that Trump wasn't an operator, but that's exactly why Trump needed guys like me. He needed people that did know how to run the business.

Okay. So did it take you long, like once you started working, to kind of understand what Mr. Nguyen was warning you about? You know, some of the warning signs.

Yeah, listen, I actually describe it in the book, Rick, where when I talk about my first meeting with Trump, because Steve Hyde hired me, and the first day I was on the job, Trump came down to Atlantic City to spend some time with me, to meet me. And, you know, he walked into my office and he sat down. And quite frankly, I was expecting a conversation similar to the kind of conversation I would have had with Steve Wynn. I would have expected him to say, 'Hey, I'm thrilled that you're here. Tell me what you want to do with this business. Tell me your philosophy on how to grow this thing. Tell me what we need to make the business better.' You know, I expected that kind of conversation, and I got none of that. And not only did I get none of that from Donald Trump, within 5 minutes, Rick, what he wanted to know were kind of the tawdry details of Steve Wynn's personal life. You know, he was like, I hear rumors that, you know, that Steve Wynn, you know, likes the women. Is that true? You know, and that kind of thing. And I was just, you know, I was, you know, ducking, you know, my conversation with Trump from the very first time that I met him. You know, I just, I told him I was very uncomfortable. Talking about Steve Wynn's personal life. And I didn't, you know, I didn't say it's inappropriate, but I said, hey, I'm really uncomfortable. And I tried, kept trying to steer the conversation to business, but I couldn't do it. And so I knew right then and there that this guy, there was no substance from a business standpoint, that he was more, you know, he really was gossip and headlines. And so, you know, it's scary to say that in the first 5 minutes of a new job there were questions, but there were questions.

Yeah. Which has been, you know, your book makes it very clear, but it seems like that's been the thing that for 4 years in office, it's just been clearer and clearer that for anyone who watches closely, that's been all it has been, unfortunately, has been for even people who wanted to objectively, hopefully, give a chance that there'd be more than just headlines. It just seems to be that's all there had been, unfortunately. And what I found fascinating too about your book trumped when I read it in 2016 was, you know, you worked for him from 1987 to 1990, and this was really before he had any huge political aspirations. You talk about it some in the book, how he kind of started making some bids for, you know, president and things like that around that time. But, you know, you were really silent about him for 25 years in the media. And you talk about how you had grown and changed over the years, and so you assumed that he had too in that time. And most of us do grow and we change, and you were giving him that benefit of the doubt. So I wonder what finally made you decide that you had to speak out around 2016 when it became kind of clear that he was seriously in contention to, you know, he might actually become president.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, sure, you know, when I left, um, Trump, um, it, it, you know, it was headlines because it was a, it was a, it was a fiery breakup, and I was running really his only profitable business. And it was a very profitable business, by the way. We, you know, too very often what gets lost in in all of this, in the bankruptcy talk, because that business eventually went bankrupt. But the last full year that I ran that business, you know, it generated over $120 million in free cash for the Trump Organization. It was a cash cow. And if not for Trump not under, you know, overleveraging the business, you know, it should still be running today. But that's all history. But when I left, you know, I had— I was part of the book, Rick. You know, maybe your viewers don't know it, but when I said I went to Trump with my friend Steve Hyde, it was two individuals, Steve Hyde and Mark Eddis, that we had worked together with Steve Wynn. And when I reunited with those two guys, It was some of the happiest days in my career because we just really worked well together and we had a great deal of respect for each other. But if you'll remember, both of those individuals died in a helicopter crash. Yeah. And they were coming back from a press conference, one of which I normally went to, but I had been on vacation that week. And, and, and they were killed. And what, what drove me away from Trump was the fact that he conveniently used, um, their death to, you know, to blame them for some of his problems. And Donald and I got into several arguments about this over the last 6 months that I was there. And ultimately, when I blew up at him and quit, it was because of that. So what happened actually, and I'll get to your question, I'm being long-winded and I'm sorry, but no, it's fine. Yeah, but, but, um, a couple days after I left, I got a call from a local, uh, media guy who had a radio show, entertainment guy, and he said, Jack, you need to set the record straight. This clown is just trashing these guys. And I was getting calls from from their girlfriend. One of them had a girlfriend, John, who also died in a helicopter. And one of the wives, Steve's wife, saying, why is he talking so poorly about these guys? And so this guy called me, his name was Sonny Schwartz, and he said, Jack, you need to set the record straight. You should write a book. And I said, oh my God, I've never even thought about writing a book. And so he said, well, I have a friend in New York and, um, will you talk to him? He's an agent. And so I said, sure. I talked to him. The guy actually called me that night and said, if I can get a meeting for you, will you come up to New York and talk to a publisher?

And I said, sure.

Well, he literally called me the next day and said, get on a helicopter and come up. And he put me in with Simon Schuster, and I told my story, and they signed me the next day to write the book. So that's— so I set the record straight in that book in 1991 when I finished it. And, and, and, and I set the record straight about Steve Hyde and Mark, that they had nothing to do with Donald Trump's problems in Atlantic City. It was all Donald Trump. That was the objective of the book. And so you're right, I did my obligation with Simon Schuster. I not only produced the product,, but I had to do a publicity tour after that where, you know, for like 6 months, anything they asked me to do, I had to go out on the road and I literally did a road show going city to city and, you know, doing the talk shows and all that other stuff. But when that was over, I was done.

Mm-hmm.

I said, you know what? I, I've spoke my piece. I want to get on with my career in life and forget about Donald Trump. And, and as the years went on, I got further and further away from him and I would get calls occasionally as his problems grew and I just said, hey, I wrote my book. I don't know what's going on in the organization today. And as time went on, I did begin to justify not speaking about him by saying, hey, look, it's now 5 years, 10 years, 15 years. I've changed as a person. I always hope I'm growing for the better and maybe he has too. Now, it didn't appear that way in the media, but I gave him that benefit of the doubt, right? And I just said, it's not my place because my book was all firsthand experience. Nothing was secondary. I didn't rely on any other source but myself for everything written in that book. So anything I could have said over those years, Rick, would have been secondhand. And I just don't think that's fair, you know, to anybody. I can have an opinion, but I couldn't talk factually. So I just refused to do it. And, you know, as Trump, as it got close, And this is a funny story. As it got close and it looked like Trump was really going to make an impact here in the primaries and he could possibly be the nominee, I started getting all these calls from media because they wanted to know more about my book and what I had said about him. And I just flat out refused it. And there was a reporter from the Washington Post named Michael Cranish who was particularly persistent, okay? And so I was sitting in my office here in Tucson one day and the receptionist walked in and said, hey, there's a reporter from the Washington Post on the phone and he wants to talk to you. And I said, oh, he calls me every day. He's Michael Kranish. And I just duck in these calls. I'm not taking them. And she goes, no, it's not Michael Kranish. She said, it's a fellow named Bob Woodward.

Wow.

And I cracked up. I was like, I said, did you say Bob Woodward from the Washington Post? And she said, yeah, that's it. He wants to talk to you. And I'm sitting there in my, you know, behind my desk and I swear to God, I went, well, who the heck am I to turn down a phone call from Bob Woodward, right?

Right. That's amazing.

And this is the funny part. So I get on the phone with Bob Woodward and sure enough, you know, it's him the second you hear his voice, right? So, He's got such a distinguished voice. And he goes, "Hi, Jack. Thank you for taking my call." And he goes, "And I hope you don't mind, I've got Michael Kranich on the line too." So we got through after all. I said, "Okay." And both of them just said, "Look, Jack, you've got a story to tell here." And they pleaded to my patriotism. And said, please talk to us and talk to others, not just us, talk to others, because, you know, this is pretty frightening. And so I dove back in, you know, I thought once I spoke to one, I should, you know, I should speak to others. And, you know, and, you know, and so I did, I did my best in the buildup to the, to the election to, you know, to try to expose, you know, really what I thought would be a very flawed president. And I think as you just said, it turned out to be very true. He was a very flawed president.

Well, you know what I actually found so helpful about your book was when, in the time that I found it, and I found it from your friend Mike Murphy actually, who I've listened to him on a lot of podcasts, and he's just, he's so great and he's so funny and he's one of the true actual conservatives out there who who hasn't sort of bent the knee over the years. And he's always recommending your book. And I found it at a time where I hadn't followed politics super closely, but at the time I was, you know, I wasn't really, I still am not a big Hillary fan, but I wasn't a Trump fan either. And I just didn't really know much about either of them at the time. I wasn't super politically active. And I found your book very interesting at the time when I found it. Because you wrote it from a perspective and at a time period when you weren't writing from any particular political agenda necessarily, because at the time the book was written, Trump didn't really have any political aspirations at the time. You were just writing from a firsthand perspective like you had said. And so it was interesting to read at that time just from, as you had said, your, your experience in the book. And it was so helpful to me to look at that time period and say, well, here he is, and it doesn't look like he's changed at all. And in fact, it just seemed like he'd gotten worse. And so it sort of has been, for me, the lens to view that through as the years have gone by. And so I'm grateful that you have spoken out some more, and I feel like you have been pretty restrained. I feel like you've you've tried to have a good amount of character about yourself as you have, you know, tried to tell your story. And I appreciate that you haven't tried to be, you know, salacious in the stories that you've told, but you've just tried to be a person of character and told the truth, you know, I feel like, as you've done these. And it must be hard too, because I think it must be very hard to be in the media a lot and to be telling stories like that. For whatever it's worth, it's been a helpful thing to me, for sure.

Well, thank you for saying that.

Well, you know, as we continue our conversation, you know, I told you before we started today, I'm a minister in the evangelical tradition, and it's no secret that especially among white evangelicals, they are Trump's biggest supporters. And it's been a mystery to me for 4 years now how that's happened. And even after the— and I'm just going to call it a Christian insurrection that happened on January 6th at the Capitol. And I have to call it that because, I mean, we saw crosses and we saw Christian music being blasted from speakers and we saw scripture verses being, you know, touted and You know, if we saw that same thing with, let's say, Islam or something like that, with it, I mean, we would call it like a, you know, an Islamic insurrection or something that was happening. So I have to call it that, what it is. Um, and, and it grieves me, you know. I see it as, as a minister, and it really, it grieves my heart deeply. And I see something like that, and, and, and I'm a kind of person that, like, I want to stop talking about Donald Trump, but the problem is my people won't stop worshiping him, it seems like. It's a really hard thing for me. And I wanted to talk to you a little bit today because, in your opinion, like, you've worked with a lot of powerful people. You've worked with people like Steve Wynn, which you've talked about, and Steve Case. You've worked with people like Merv Griffin, and you've worked with Donald Trump. But, but there aren't like, you know, such devoted people. Like, there's not a Merv Griffin cult that I'm aware of, you know, or anything like that, you know. I'm just wondering, like, in your opinion— and, and this is just totally your opinion off the top of your head as you've thought about it— like, what is it in your opinion that makes Donald Trump in particular someone that, that creates something like a cult-type following? And I say this Whereas today there literally is video this morning of the CPAC conference where literally they have wheeled in a golden idol of Donald Trump into a conference hall this morning. And it's like the comparison is hard to miss of like they literally have wheeled in a golden statue into a conference hall of what will be filled with probably predominantly white evangelicals. And I, I just be interested in your thoughts on that.

Yeah, you know, Rick, it's— I'm guessing this is going to be the toughest question that you ask me all day because it's a very difficult question to answer or to understand. And I sympathize with you being a minister. I can't imagine how painful that must be at times. But here's, I guess, how I would respond is that it's, it's part of it. It's not a new phenomenon for him where people like worship him. I mean, I can tell stories and I do actually in the book where he would walk through the casino and people would rush over and they would just touch him and they would literally say, if I touch him, maybe some of that will rub off on me.

Hmm.

So people have, you know, going way back into those days. And don't forget, he was in the press all the time. So he was doing exactly what he's done, you know, throughout his whole presidency and his buildup to the election in 2016. You know, all news is good news and it didn't matter to him. So he has a constant narrative that he puts out there. And, you know, for one reason or another, and this is, you know, people latch on to it. Maybe it's just the repetitive nature of it. You know, I don't know. But, you know, there's really nothing to compare it to. I mean, look at it in, you know, in the Christian world, so to speak, you know, people read the Bible and, you know, they become more devout after reading it and certain passages begin to resonate more and more over time. And they take a deep love and understanding and support of it. And, you know, he has now, and I mean, by no means, gosh, I'm not comparing his narrative to the narrative of the Bible. Trust me, I don't want to. My God, I'm not saying that. But, you know, he has a 40, going on 50-year narrative of promotion, okay? And it's resonating with people. It's almost like psychological warfare to some extent, you know. And, you know, I can't answer it, Rick, you know, with a firm, this is why, because it is a mystery. I mean, it is a mystery because because there's no connection to some of the hateful policies and some of the hateful rhetoric to anything that I know about the various Christian, you know, faiths throughout the world or to anything in the Bible. There is just no connection. So it's a polar opposite, and it's just as baffling to me as it is to you that there could be such a contradictory figure that so many of Christians support.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and it seems to be that the only people who don't understand it are the Christians who support him. It's kind of interesting because those on the outside look at it and they go, don't you see how contradictory this is? And those on the inside go, no, I don't understand why it's so contradictory. And it's kind of, it's interesting.

But, you know, as a little bit of a sub to that, and I hate to use the word, identify these people as Christian, but a vast amount of his supporters, while they say they might be Christian, the whole racial piece can't be ignored with Trump. I don't know what percentage of it is, but out of the 79 million people who voted for him, that have strong racial bias or, you know, prejudiced feelings toward people of color. But there's a big swath of those people in that population, and, you know, I would suggest that most of those people aren't really evangelicals or Christians, you know, at all. You know, they're just people that are using that image, so to speak, you know, for their own self-gratification or their own justification. So, just, yeah.

Yeah, it's an interesting marrying of a lot of different factors together, and then people that would never necessarily even cross paths at times too. Yeah. And, you know, I've been to— cross another path as well with a different field that you've worked with. And by the way, are you still good on time? We're at 45 minutes now, and I don't know—

I'm good.

I'm good. OK. If you're OK for a few more minutes, we'll keep going. I really appreciate your generosity with your time today. But I have been reading some about the work that you do through the C4 Recovery Foundation in accountability-based addiction treatment and recovery. And I do admire the work that you're doing in that field. And I— it seems to me that a lot of your work in your life has been working around people with various obsessions that can become addictions. And we talked a little while ago about even in your family life growing up about addiction. And in many ways, and I may be completely wrong about this, but in many ways I think I see Donald Trump as a person having an addiction. You know, I think he has an addiction for fame and attention and power and money. And I think in many ways the white evangelical church in America has gotten addicted to Trump, and just as like the news outlets have, you know, they've become obsessed with his illusion to power— his illusion of power, I should say, and wealth, and his illusion of genius. You know, that he projects, because I do think there's a lot of illusion there. And I'm just wondering your thoughts here, because I think you would know this a lot better than I do. Do you think there might be any similarity at all with what we might see in maybe gamblers who are addicted maybe to gambling and maybe thinking like maybe they're going to win it all? And thinking that like they're gonna put everything on this false hope of, you know, if I can just roll one more time or just keep going just a little bit more. And it may be with your years in the casino, and I wonder if it might be a similar case even made with those that you've worked with, with people with other addictions, with, you know, I know with C4 Recovery, with people with opioid addiction, addictions and things like that. Would you see any sort of connection with that at all? Or am I just— maybe I'm wrong. I'm just wondering if there's any sort of connection with the way that we get addicted to things.

Well, look, my wife happens to be a student of the brain. She's a neuropsychiatrist that is constantly trying to understand how the brain works. And, you know, I won't try to pretend to have her knowledge or that of a neuroscience scientist, but, you know, a lot goes on in the brain, Rick. And, you know, the production of pleasure and reward that takes place in the brain can come from a lot of activities. And so, you know, like I— I was a runner my entire life, and they used to talk about the runner's high where endorphins would get released into your brain and you could, you know, you felt so good while you were running. Well, the same thing happens when you drink or when you take drugs and when you gamble. You're absolutely right. There is a connection because the brain is, you know, actually doing something inside there, whether, you know, releasing endorphins and dopamine, and it's telling that person This feels really good while I'm doing this. And so with the gambler, it's not necessarily that they think they're going to win. Okay. It's the high that they get while they're doing it. You know, yes, they're thinking they're going to win. But, you know, you know, we used to say in the gambling industry, there's just some people that love the action.

Okay.

But that action is that excitement that I might win. Okay. And It, you know, it does, it is addictive, and thank goodness, you know, like alcohol and like drugs, like gambling, like sex addiction, whatever it might be, it's a small percentage of the population. But the fact of the matter is it's a devastating consequence for those people that get addicted to any of these things. So there's a huge connection. And just to say, you know, C4's work, you know, we not just are advocates for ethical, you know, treatment, but we specifically really work trying to help people in underserved markets, you know, where, you know, it's easy for a rich white guy, you know, to check into treatment center at $45,000 or $50,000 a month and get some really good treatment, okay? But that's not most of America, and quite frankly, it's not most of the people that are suffering from some form of addiction. And so we have gone into underserved markets. We try to go into, you know, do work in the inner cities. We've done work in the Navajo Nation, as an example, with the tribal groups. We've gone into Muslim countries where addiction is really frowned upon, and we've set up community-based treatment services and systems. And like, we had— we did two pilot programs in Turkey, right in the center of Istanbul. And, you know, it's people that normally wouldn't have access to this. But that's just to highlight some of C4's great work.

Sure.

Yeah. But it is. Look, Rick, you know, this is a, this is a problem in America that's not getting any better, as you know. I mean, I mean, you mentioned the opioid crisis. You know, opioids and methamphetamine are off the charts right now. And, and most of the people just don't have access to treatment. And the consequence of some of this has been over time that the judicial system, you know, is the answer. And that has been how America has faced this problem. Oh, you do drugs, you have illegal drugs, you're going to jail. Well, guess what happens when you send somebody to jail that's an addict? When you let them out, they're still an addict.

Okay.

So we're actually a huge advocate and, you know, for what we call diversion and deflection. Where proactively police departments actually identify people and say, you know, instead of going to jail, we're going to put you into treatment. And that's a better solution. And believe it or not, there's 1,000+ police departments over the last few years that have initiated programs on diversion and deflection instead of putting people into treatment. We have a long way to go because there's 18,000 police departments in the country, but, but that's probably the biggest piece of work we're doing right now, um, you know, in this country, uh, is, is promoting diversion and deflection programs.

Man, that's amazing. And I, I do think there is a, there is a great need for treatment. I, I think after, after this year, I think we're all going to need some some treatment after 2020 and 2021. And I don't just mean from opioids, for sure. I think we've all experienced a lot more loss than what we even understand at this point. And yeah, these are fascinating conversations to have, but I so applaud the work that you're doing through the CFAW 4 Recovery Foundation, and I want to encourage people to have a look at your website as well that you're doing with that, because there's so much to learn, and I think that people need to find out more. So I do want to let listeners know that on our podcast page, I'm going to make sure and put links to everywhere where they can find out more about you as well. Just another couple of quick questions while I have you on here today. You've had You've had really an amazing career and we could always look to the past to talk about things that you've done, but I'm wondering what's next for you, Jack? Anything exciting on the horizon that you're working on that you're just excited and want to talk about?

Yeah, well, you know, what's next for me at my age is to continue to do work in the nonprofit sector, which, which I've, you know, it's been a blessing for me, quite frankly. It's, I mean, working in behavioral health was always very rewarding. Okay. But doing some of this nonprofit work feels very good. And I would like to have many, many years continuing in this field. You know, there are what's next, of course, besides just that. Actually, recently, without giving too much detail, my book is getting a lot of play, so to speak, in Hollywood, and there's very strong interest in converting that book to a movie. Or a miniseries, so to speak, on one of the Netflix or something like that. And actually, there is a script that's been written that's being walked around with some great interest. So I kind of hope that happens. I'll be honest. You know, that's a little— Yeah, that's a little self-serving, right? But, but, but, you know, but I hope that happens because I think it would be— I think it will be entertaining and I think it'll be a good story. And, you know, the other thing that's on my list, which is, which is really important to me, is, you know, Nancy, my wife, you know, and I, we have our first grandson. And, you know, we have two kids, you know, out in Southern California, and we're looking forward to spending time, time with them. And then the third thing that's on my list is that Nancy, we relaunched a foundation that She started 11— well, no, you know, I mean, it's more than 11, it's 14 years ago, 16 years ago, her daughter died in a car accident. Oh my. Literally, literally 500 feet from her house. And we— she was a young artist, she was 16 when she died. And Nancy started a foundation for young artists and we scholarship people in the various programs of, you know, and we help them sell their art and things like that. And the foundation took a little break for a few years and we've just relaunched that in the last couple of months. And so we have some really exciting projects that we're doing with the Lacy Jarrell Foundation and Green Star Art. And so we're really excited about over the next 12 months, you know, kicking that back into high gear because, you know, this country's always done really a great job with scholarships for athletes. Okay. You know, and the super smart. I think that there's a lot of good scholarships for really super smart people. But I think the arts, you know, people that just simply like to draw or like to sing You know, we need to do more for them. So we're going to be getting very, very focused on doing some great work with young artists in this country.

Amen. I'm a singer myself, so I'm all for that. Very good. Now, I want to make sure I have that information correct. Did you say that was the Lacey Jarrell Foundation?

Yeah. L-A-C-E-Y-J-A-R-R-E-L-L. The Lacey Jarrell Foundation.

All right. We'll have to make sure to look that up for sure. Well, wonderful. Well, can I ask you just one more question before we end our time together? Well, you seem like a very hopeful person to me, and I know there can be a lot of discouragement in the news these days, but you do, you just seem like a very hopeful person. And I just wonder, what do you see that's giving you the most hope today?

Well, you know, Rick, I think it's, you know, First off, the alternative to hope is just, you know, is not a good thing. And so, you know, you have to be hopeful. You have to have faith in the future. You have to look at the people around you that you know that are doing positive things and smiling every day and saying "I love you," and you have to draw strength from that. And that's what I do. I mean, that's the most hopeful thing to me. That I can, is that I have a network of people that I know want better things for others, and I know they just keep the faith, so to speak. Because it is discouraging to watch the news day after day. But, you know, You know, what gives me hope is that there's millions of people, people like yourself that are out there, you know, spreading a positive message. And we get, we get that we don't have to resonate with 5 million people today. But if we resonate with one, you take joy from that and you begin to— and that's how I get my hope. I mean, it sounds goofy, Rick, but you know, when I call somebody by their name in the grocery store, it makes me feel good because I know it makes them feel good.

Okay.

And it's, and it's doing little things like that. I make that a part of my life every single day. So I got my COVID shot yesterday and I made sure, I made sure that I thanked every one of those nurses for being there and the person checking us in. And because it feels good to me, that's what gives me hope. You see the smile even through their masks, you can see their eyes, okay? And you know you've made them happy for the, even if it's just for that second. And that for me is, and maybe it's, you know, it's what a lot of people that are suffering from addiction but are in recovery, you know, they live day to day. Sometimes they live hour to hour. Sometimes they get by minute to minute. And I think if you incorporate some of that into your life and you take satisfaction and joy out of the next minute, you'll feel hopeful.

Hmm, very good. Well, Jack O'Donnell, this has been a real pleasure to get to talk to you today, and I just want to say thank you for being one of the Voices in My Head this week.

Rick, thank you very much. I really appreciate the time you've given me.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com, where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, follow my blog, and even schedule me for a concert or a speaking engagement. Better yet, even a book signing in your neighborhood. You can find all that and more at rickleejames.com. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, the more visible this podcast will be online. And now for the benediction: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. God bless you, and thank you for listening to Voices in My Head.