Him + Her Worship (Even In The Dark)- Episode 388

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Welcome to Voices in My Head.

In My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, a songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more with friends, colleagues, and sometimes just by myself. Now make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes or by tweeting at me @RickLeeJames Twitter. And please join my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. By the way, in case you're interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the voices in my head. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of Voices in My Head. Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I'm your host Rick Lee James, and I'm so glad that you're here with us for what I know is going to be another great conversation this week. Even in the Dark, which released on September 4th, is the full-length debut album from Minneapolis-based husband and wife folk-pop duo Him and Her Worship. Even in the Dark is grounded in the assurance of God's steadfast love throughout life's deepest valleys and highest peaks. Him and Her Worships' Seth and Jenna Herlich, who wrote, recorded, and produced the project, have stopped by for a visit today. Seth and Jenna, welcome to Voices in My Head.

Oh, thank you so much. We're so thankful to be on.

Well, I am grateful to have you, and I realize as we are starting the show today, I should have asked you if I am pronouncing your last name correctly. I'm almost certain I mispronounced it just now, but would you mind— would you mind letting our audience know how to say your last name?

Well, the way you pronounce it was closer to like the actual German pronunciation.

Yes.

But we go by Herlik.

Herlik. Yes.

Okay.

Herlik. Very good.

Herlik.

All right. I will know for my future reference when I say your name.

Yeah.

No worries.

For sure. And I wanted to make listeners also aware that when they're looking for your music, whether it be on Spotify or iTunes or wherever they stream, or even just to buy the actual album, it's Him and Her Worship, but it's him with a plus sign. So I wanted to make sure that they were able to find it that way, um, just so there wasn't any confusion, as sometimes it happens on the internet. And as I told you beforehand, I've been confused a few times with another Rick James, and, you know, uh, yeah, yeah, well, you know, as we get started tonight, tell our listeners who are listening, just tell us about some of your musical origins. When did you both start playing and singing and making music?

Yeah, you first.

Yeah, I can start. Um, I don't know, my parents were never very musical, um, but they did end up, um, in middle school they just got a really cheap, um, it was like, I don't know, like an electric piano, and we just had one in the house. And then I, I just joined, um, like the symphonic band in middle school, and I played trumpet. Wasn't really a superstar at trumpet. Um, but then I don't know, I was really— I still really enjoyed it. And so, um, I really got into, um, kind of more, uh, oldies rock. And so I was a big fan of Beach Boys and The Who and especially The Beatles. And so, um, when I was in 8th grade, I, um, I asked my parents for a guitar and I ended up getting one for my birthday. And I also got like a Beatles, um, songbook as well. So I started learning. Yes, so I, I'm completely self-taught with guitar. And then, um, where I went to high school, where Seth and I both went to high school, um, piano is a requirement, as is choir. And so, um, starting— because it's, it's a Christian school, it's very music focused in like the classical department. Um, so yeah, so I took piano lessons for the first time and then continued on past, past what I needed to do because I really enjoyed it. And then same with choir. I ended up trying out for the elite choir at that school, which was pretty competitive, and just ended up making it. So, and that's actually where Seth and I kind of met and became friends slash boyfriend and girlfriend.

Yeah, terrific.

But yeah, that's me though.

Yeah. So I'm the youngest of 6 kids and, um, there's 10 years between me and my closest sibling.

Wow.

And, um, so my 3 oldest sisters and my oldest brother were incredibly musical. Um, my oldest brother was very into like writing music and playing music and my 3 sisters kind of followed suit and they all were in, uh, an elite show choir in high school that traveled, um, and competed. And that kind of influenced me. I mean, I was going to those every weekend as a baby, basically, through— up through, you know, 5 years old. And, um, I— my parents got me a drum set, I think, when I was 4, and I taught— 4 or 5— and I taught myself how to play drums. And then I started taking piano lessons when I was in first grade.. And, um, yeah, my closest brother also— so the, this sibling closest to me who's 10 years older, he was in a signed like Christian screamo band, uh, high school. So there was all kinds of influences. Um, and then when I got to high school, um, again, Jenna and I were both very sports focused. So I was really into football and Jenna was really into soccer and that was kind of our focus, but also music was really important to us. And I, in hindsight, realized it was probably even more important than I realized. But yeah, I ended up playing also in some screamo rock bands as a drummer and also some pop cover bands and also would write music. And I was in a traveling quartet, a cappella quartet.

Oh, I forgot about that.

And also we were in a traveling elite choir that traveled the country. Um, but all very like classical stuff.

You were also in symphony band.

Yeah, and band too. Yeah, jazz band, all those things. So, um, yeah. And then so we both went to school, into college for ministry. Um, I was going to become a pastor, ended up failing out of school, um, and Jenna continued on and got her degree in teaching. But not until afterwards, uh, and we got married did our life kind of shift towards the direction that we're going Yeah, now, um, basically what happened is, uh, I ended up moving back home and, uh, after getting kicked out of school. And, um, basically a good friend of mine had a music academy that was in partnership with the church, and it was actually my brother-in-law's church. And he ended up transitioning to a full-time call as their worship arts worship director. And he needed someone to fill his shoes at his, at his worship academy. So I ended up moving up there, and because of that, I ended up playing, not only like really learning all about like that genre of music, which I wasn't really interested in, but also playing and leading at church. And then Jen and I got married, and then Jen ended up leading at church. And yeah, yeah, and now we're here.

Yeah, it's funny, it's funny how you know, there's that change of direction so often once you mature just a little bit and, and kind of find where it is that you're being led as far as music. Because, you know, who would have thought from like a screamo band to a more, you know, worship setting, and then, and then, you know, music that's a little more subdued. But it sounds like both of you have had a lot of training in all kinds of different music together. So it's, that's pretty neat though, as I think back about you know, the school you were both in that I can't recall hearing of another, you know, even a Christian school that required, you know, piano and things like that. It's actually really good. That's good training for people. That's amazing. And I was just wondering, what's it like to be on tour with a screamo band? Because I have a feeling they're much more subdued when they're not in the screaming mode. I would imagine.

Oh my goodness. Yes, that is. It's so crazy and interesting because I would so agree with not only my experience with my friends and then my brother's experience with his. And then also we had a photographer take pictures for us who also did that for a magazine specifically for the punk, like screamo Christian music. And yes, everyone is really chill except the people who are playing.

Yes.

Yeah. It's so interesting. Yes. It's like you got— they have all the angst and all that and they get it all out on stage and Yes, yes. So, oh my goodness.

Well, and I think, I think all of us who play music, we almost are— I'm not everybody, but in my experience, and I know I am, I come a little bit more alive on, on the platform than I do, you know. I'm, I'm pretty, I'm pretty mild-mannered and even not quite introverted, but on a good day I'm an introvert, you know, type person. But if there's something about the way that that whether it be performing or leading worship or just making music, isn't it interesting how it kind of shifts to a different part of our personality? And I've seen that time and time again with, with people who do music.

It's—

and it's neat because I think none of us are just one thing, and there are so many different facets of who God has made us to be. It's fun to see that kind of come out on stage. And, and people that you would think are so charismatic sometimes are the hardest people to have a conversation with later on. They're just so quiet.

But that is so true.

If I could just tell one really small story there. So I'm a— I was a Spanish major in college and I had the same— they only had one Spanish professor and he was amazing. He just— this like really cute old, older gentleman, very like awkward when he spoke in English. But when he was speaking in Spanish, he was like, over the top, over the top, loud, obnoxious, like, and I loved it. It was so fun to talk to him in Spanish and he was like that, and then talk to him in English and he was just kind of mousy. And I feel like, I feel like playing music is where you can have kind of a different personality. And it's, and I think it can be natural too. It's not like you're putting on a front. It's just like, this is who I am when I am worshiping.

It's Really, it's really cool. I listened to a podcast last week with Bear Reinhart from the, uh, he's the frontman from Need to Breathe, and he said the same thing. Like, basically he gets to be the child, the real him, when he's on stage holding a guitar and singing into a microphone, and everything else is like the, the work of it. And like, yeah. It's hard. Like, he— for him, he just comes alive when he's on stage in front of— but everything else is— yeah, yeah, hard. And I totally, I totally agree with that too.

Yeah, it is, it is funny, you know, the, the old adage from the— it's, it's an old movie and an old story now, but Chariots of Fire, Eric Liddell. And he, he was a marathoner and he was a Christian, and he said that, uh, you know, he feels the joy of the Lord whenever he's running, you know. And it's kind of interesting that there are those times in life that we feel most fully ourselves, and there's this identity that we come into. And again, I think what you said is perfect. There's nothing fake about it. It's that there are just certain moments of life that we just really come alive, things that give us life and the way that we're made, and it speaks to us, and that's wonderful. Well, let's talk a little bit, since we're talking about things coming to life, and I want to talk about Even in the Dark, which is a really cool album, and there's some really special moments on it. You know, rumor has it that you did this album, a good bit of it, while you were living in a camper in the parking lot of your church. I was wondering if you could share some of the story behind that.

Yeah, yeah.

So basically, we tour, we try and play 100 to 150 or more shows a year, and we live in our camper full-time. And since we're from the Upper Midwest in Minnesota, and as you know, that gets a little snowy and a little difficult to travel. So we are basically snowbirds where we, we try and stick the, you know, the upper half of the country when, when it's nice and warm, and then we go down south when it turns into winter. So we were making our way across, um, basically from the Southeast to the Southwest, and we had landed in Phoenix, Arizona right when, right when COVID and quarantine happened. And we kind of watched, as everyone did, watch our life fall apart. But it specifically our schedule. And living on the road and kind of leaving, you know, everything behind, and we don't have a home, it gets really scary when you don't— like, when that happens, because, you know, of course we're relying on the next place and the next place. And, you know, if you're, if you're squatting at a place for 2 days, it's not a big deal, right? But it becomes a lot bigger difference when all of a sudden, you know, 3 months of your life is changed. Um, and so basically what happened was we, we were going to play for this church, and they were very gracious and basically bartering with us where we asked if we would be able to live in their parking lot for 3 months, finish our record, and in turn we would produce all of their online content for them. So we had high-quality cameras and, um, we're, you know, we do audio work. So we basically made all of their quarantine videos for them and they let us live in their parking lot. And it was an amazing experience for lots of different reasons.

Yeah.

Yeah, and sorry, go ahead.

No, I'm just saying that's a great idea to kind of work together and partner, but please, please continue.

Absolutely.

Yeah, it was definitely mutually beneficial. And, um, they kept like— the, the pastor lived on the property in like the parsonage, and he just kept saying that, I don't know, that we were giving more than they were giving us. And we're just like, no, you have no idea. No idea. I get caught— first of all, campgrounds were closed, and even if they were open, they cost like $50 a night. And so it was just like like, you don't even know what you're, you're giving us. And especially, um, to answer your question, is that we were able to just set up in their nursery, um, kind of outside of the sanctuary, the worship space. Um, we just made that into our recording studio. And so we, um, we bought a couple extra pieces of equipment, but we had the majority of the things that we needed.

Yeah.

Um, it it was totally God's plan because, um, if none of that would have happened, we would have been bouncing from church to church in Arizona and Vegas and California trying to record. I can't imagine. And just knowing how much work it was to set up our vocal booth alone, which was basically a couple of our stands like brought up really high, put all the blankets from our bed on it, and then we have like foam. Um, what would that— would you—

yeah, just like a surround shield around the microphone.

Yeah.

And, and just thinking about needing to do that, especially the number of times we had to re-record vocals on some songs, it was just like God knew what he was doing.

Yeah, there would have been no way we'd have finished it.

Yeah, we needed to be in one place for 3 months, so it ended up being a huge blessing.

So, so that answers another question I had. I mean, this is a— this is really like a pandemic project. I mean, like, from doing this, and there's not a lot of those coming out right now because it feels like everything just kind of went on hold, you know. I've stopped doing any traveling at all. I work at my church part-time, and I do a lot of traveling too, and thank God I have my church family, you know, part-time to keep— yeah, seems like I've been busier than ever before just doing local church stuff, you know. And it's an awesome— it's an odd thing to have like an empty building with nobody there and be so much more busy than I used to, you know. It's It's very strange, but I love—

yeah, go ahead.

I'm sorry, we just kept, uh, during that time, just to go off of what you're just saying, same thing where it was like, how can it be that we've had less revenue and less shows than ever before and we're— we were like 100 times more busy as well? It's so strange. I think some people's work really dropped off or they lost their job, and some people's lives just ramped up. Yeah, and we were a part of that as well.

Yeah, I mean, I have no idea that the people that talked about being so bored and, you know, not being able to do any— and I'm like, I would love some boredom. I am so overworked right now. I just felt crazy. So it's just one of those odd things. And I've heard that again and again from worship leaders, pastors, people on staff at churches, and just different, different things that continue even in the midst of everything else stopping. It's kind of interesting to hear that. Well, I love that it actually brings even more meaning to the title of the album, I think, Even in the Dark. And then I really love the layout of your album with, you know, the 3 sections of the album. There's a section on— just so our listeners will know, it starts with the dusk and the little musical interludes that begin each section, and then it moves into the dark and, and then the dawn. And as I was kind of reflecting on your album Often we think in terms of the rising of the sun to its setting as the place where the action of life happens. And there's even the scripture verse from the— and we've all sung the song, I'm sure, at church camp or whatever, if we ever went, you know, from the rising of the sun to the going down.

Yes.

But your album, it kind of takes that and flips it with the focus. And I like that a lot because you're starting at dusk and you're working your way through the dark and then into the dawn. And it's literally, you know, the darkest part of the 24-hour period is what your album is dealing with. And I have to ask, did the Book of Psalms kind of lead you in this— I guess I'll call it a dark focus because it really is sort of an album that takes place with its movements almost in the nighttime. And the Psalms are this great treasure of, you know, like 40% of them are what I would call Psalms of Darkness, you know, these Psalms crying out to God and, and seeking rescue and, and begging God to come and, and answer and, and crying out. And I'm just wondering if the Psalms were something you held very dear, kind of in the process of writing and, and recording and even being in this pandemic time.

Yeah, I— oh man, I thank you so much. Like, those are— that's so— it's just so refreshing to hear someone like talk to us about our art. So it— that's like That meant something special. So thank you. I wouldn't say specifically the Psalms inspired this album, but I would say that King David is kind of like a kindred spirit. He's kind of like a melancholic person. I mean, he went through so many things and I think we're just— I don't know.

I don't know. Yeah, I mean, In retrospect, yes. But the thing that's interesting is like all, like the name and all of the themes came after the whole album was done. And the thing is, I think the big thing of the past season of our life has really, the past year has been really hard even before like COVID hit. And this album was written and finished like lyrically by February of, so before COVID even happened, this record Basically Rick Lee James. But the thing is, is that we were basically going through this season and it were so many ups and downs, not only career-wise, but, um, my mom was diagnosed with cancer and ended up passing away the second day of January. So the second day of 2020. And so 2020 has really been one of those years that was, that is really hard. And then we like, we kind of saw where the year was headed with COVID happening and coming and happening and what everyone was going through. And that's when we like doubled down on like, this record needs to come out, even though really retroactively it was really coming from last— the season before what we're going through now.

Yeah.

And we realized looking back how relevant it was to what everyone is facing now. And that's when, like, we realized, first of all, we love narrative. And we really, really hold narrative highly in just encompassing art generally. I think it really helps knit the whole thing together when it has more than just song to song to song, if you know what I mean. So I feel like it really encapsulated that idea, and then it was like, oh, like these songs have a theme. Like there's actually more here than what we originally thought, and that kind of wove itself all together.. And then we realized, I mean, we don't have a title track even in called Even in the Dark, but we said some form of even in the dark in like 4 songs. And all that put together made us realize that I think that's what is here.

Yeah.

It was really just put together by God. It just really felt like it. It's like we wrote the songs from the seasons we were in and then it was just like, yep, these are the songs we're gonna use. Oh wow. Here's the theme. Oh yeah. There's the title.

Wow.

Okay, 3 parts. That's what we're doing. It was really just kind of given to us.

So much so. And then when we decided to make the full-length lyric video, album video that our video producer made for us and like with, with our help and, and getting to see it for the first time when it dropped on Friday, like we just were able to kind of— I don't like to use the word consume, but we were able to sit and watch it and experience it. And it was like, wow, like there is so much more here than I even realized. And just, I don't know, I just— yeah, it wasn't on purpose, if that makes sense. It wasn't on purpose.

Well, if you don't— well, before I go too far, I want to— I just want to say how sorry I am to hear about your mom. And I knew that just from reading some of the information about you guys before the show tonight, I read some about your mother and and the process. So I never want to like just rush past something like that without taking a moment. I want to acknowledge the sacredness of that moment, for one thing. And, and I wonder, did, did she have a chance to hear any of the songs that, that you were making for this album in the, in the middle of your making it? Or was she even with us long enough to be able to hear some of the finished recordings that you were doing?

No, actually not.

Yeah, it's kind of like the, um, kind of the tragedy of it, but it's also kind of beautiful as well. Um, especially one of the singles called It'll Be Alright, we wrote for her on the day she passed away. And so the— when we finished writing it, we got a text from Seth's sister saying that she was gonna meet Jesus, and she ended a couple hours, a couple hours after. So I don't know, it was kind of like, it was really hard to write those songs and have her not hear it. But yeah, it's also really comforting because the words that we wrote for her ended up being the comfort for us and our family, and then like the people we share it with.

Yeah, so, so yeah. Yeah, incredibly thankful. Yeah.

Well, yeah, I can, and I can completely understand that because that's such a part of the grieving process, especially for creative people, is to be able to kind of sing your feelings out and different things. And yet at the same time, I, all of us, we know we're, we're in some ways we're guessing, we know what Scripture tells us and what theology teaches us about the afterlife, but none of us have been there. And I always think, whatever it means that absence from the body is presence with the Lord, and whatever it means that we are still in somehow this fellowship of believers— and I often say to people who've lost loved ones, I'll say, and I'll say it about your mother, you know, may she rest in peace and rise in glory. Absolutely. Because there is this beautiful hope that's there And so whatever it means, I get this feeling that part of the fellowship of believers together, I get the feeling that she's not missing it too. You know, there's a sense in which the Holy Spirit is connecting us all in such a way that we probably can't even sense at this moment. But I'm sorry for your loss, and I'm grateful that you were able to use your grief as a way to kind of bring songs for the church and songs for God's glory. Because I've thought for a few years now, actually, when I was doing some writing while my grandmother was passing away, it kind of reinvigorated my songwriting for the church in some way because she loved the Lord so much. And I remember being around her bedside, and what we did a lot was was sing old hymns, you know, for like the 2 weeks as she was passing away. And we all knew she was passing away. And I thought, you know what, what a task that we have as musicians for the church, that we would attempt to even write something that would be strong enough to sing as we are dying, you know. Yeah, like, like, imagine that. And so in a sense, that's what you you guys are doing. You know, you're in the middle of writing these important songs, and they are songs that you're wrestling. You know, matter of fact, I'm gonna just go to the song that really literally makes the illusion of Jacob wrestling with God in Genesis that you guys are singing about in the Dawn part of the record. And you're literally singing these lyrics of, you know, no small thing is beneath your love, there's no pain that can I can't be shaken. No, I need you, God. I won't relent. I won't let go until you bless me. Oh, and, um, those lyrics hit me hard, you know, when I was hearing that. And I can just feel such a depth, um, on the journey that you guys have taken. And then I'll stop talking and let you talk some more. But it's, it's very, it's very moving to me as a listener, I guess, to, to say I appreciate the way you have interacted with that.

We're—

we are all in a state of grief on some level right now, whether we've lost loved ones or not. And, and a lot of guests have talked about this with me on this podcast. Some, like you, have lost relatives, people you love very dearly. Others of us have lost, you know, other things that we can't quite put our finger on because we've missed months and we've missed all this time. Um, yeah, so I love the way that you have interacted with your loss and are interacting with it to help us in some way. It's very generous of you to do that.

Yeah, thank you.

Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much.

I know, I, I kind of feel like it is part of our calling to experience our feelings publicly for the sake of everyone else. Just because, as you mentioned, like, yeah, everyone's grieving right now. And we just keep seeing that in the faces of the people that we're meeting as we are still playing in smaller venues and on Sundays and stuff and like meeting people. And you can just see it on their face. And people tell us stories about just the, I don't know, mourning things that they've lost, even if it's not a loved one, but it's, you're right, months or jobs or trips or whatever, just how life used to be. And I— it— we had a pastor one time, he told us, he said it in front of the whole church, and he was like, I know that most people probably tell you that they, you know, they hope that things go better for you in the future, but I'm gonna keep praying that you guys go through hardships because your hardships are getting songs for the church that people need. And it was like, whoo, that just like hit me really hard. Like, man, maybe, maybe suffering is part of the calling and it has to be okay.

Yeah, yeah, I, uh, I definitely— I feel that and resonate with that a lot. And I think Jenna and I both As I mean, as you probably can tell, and if you listen to the Arch Music or encounter us, we really, really, really value being honest and authentic and real. And that is not easy always, and it can be really challenging, and but also incredibly liberating and powerful. And I mean, I remember reading, um, I love, I love reading the Bible, but one specific interpretation or translation is, um, The Message, and there's a specific— and I like to listen or read it when I want to get inspiration or just a different twist on, on wording and stuff. Um, and it was talking in— it was Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, and he's talking about being generous. Um, and I can't specifically remember, um, where it is, but basically the idea is, is that you should be generous with your story because it is something to That's something that you have the ability to— I can't think of the word.

Steward.

Steward. Yes. Thank you. Steward. Yes. Steward your story. And it gives people that hear you being honest with your story the opportunity to not only be honest or vulnerable with themselves, but also with God. And I took that to heart. And I think Jen and I both have taken that to heart that I really believe truly that God desires relationship with us. And to have relationship requires us to bring our true selves, our whole selves, and that includes our fears and doubts and our concerns and our anger and all of it, all of the above. And I know that God can handle it. And it's true that if you want to be able to have relationship with him, you can't leave the negative of you back from him. He wants all of you and he wants you to bring all of you to him. And that's where our songs really come from. And that's really what we strive for.

Yeah, that's why the wrestle in No Small Thing is, I think it's just the perfect example. Like, I believe, I believe you're good, but I'm still like, I'm waiting for the blessing. And I'm gonna keep, I'm gonna bring my whole self to this, to this relationship. And I think that that's— I don't know, that's— I think that might be what some Christians need.

I totally believe that. Yes, I totally believe that.

Yeah.

And, and you know what I was, I was thinking, um, too, I mean, one of the first songs on the album, this is from Psalm 27, I Will Sing. It's sort of this, this standout track of— to me, it almost reminds me of worship as a matter of will. Not as a matter of like emotion or desire because I want to, you know.

Yep.

Oh my goodness.

Yes, it's— and, and there have been so many times I've, I've been at my church, um, in, in some capacity or another on staff for— this is actually coming up on 19 years in a couple months, which is crazy. Thank you.

That's awesome.

Thank you. They've, they've been so kind to me to allow me to do a lot of different endeavors over the years.

And—

but I've, but I've been consistently, you know, it's kind of my home base. And, um, there have just been so many seasons, including the one we're in now, where I think maybe— I don't know if I want to say more often than not, but often there are those Sundays that are just like, this is a praise God anyway moment, because, because it doesn't feel good. And I can't tell you how many times I've come back to to, um, like Habakkuk chapter 3, and there's two verses in particular that stand out. And I don't know if it'll come to your mind or not, but one that just stands out to me in Habakkuk 3, the writer says, though the fig tree does not bud and there are no grapes on the vine, and though the olive crops fail and the fields produce no food, and there are no sheep in the pen and no cattle in the stalls, And then verse 18 says, yet I will rejoice in the Lord, and I will be— oh yeah, you know, in God my Savior. And they just listed this long, you know, litany of like, we've got nothing, everything's gone, it's all going wrong, so, but I will praise God, you know. And how many times does it feel that way, you know, in the midst of what we're doing? Um, and, and I feel like you've brought that out, uh, and it's I think it's a real gifting for both of you to be able to kind of lay it out on the album in this way. But am I hitting close to what you were feeling kind of on that?

I will sing.

Yeah, you totally put language that—

yeah, language that I didn't even have.

I didn't have.

So thank you.

Yeah, literally, because I feel that so often because we play like 2 or 3 in a normal setting. 2 or 3 concerts or Sundays a week, and it can get really mundane sometimes. And especially like if the audience isn't as rowdy as we want them to, or we get some weird vibes somewhere, and it's just like really hard. And sometimes it's really, yeah, just a matter of will. I'm gonna do it, and I'm gonna do my best, and I'm gonna try to mean it. Like, even if 'Ah, even if it's— my feelings aren't all there.' And oh my gosh, like, I—

so resonant.

So good.

I think it's crazy because this last weekend we— and I'm so— I want to say this, I'm so thankful that God has been blessing us with the ability to tour still. But we've— we played 4 shows in 5 days over the past 5 days. And two nights ago, um, it was, it was one of those nights where I literally had to be okay with the fact that all I literally could bring, all I had, and it wasn't what I normally have, but that had to be enough. And I think that we've been experiencing and learning, and I'm so glad that you put words to this because sometimes, man, I feel so guilty guilty that I don't— and I know that's the danger of feelings, but I feel guilty that it doesn't feel as powerful as some nights or whatever.

Or when you're just waiting for the setlist.

Yeah, waiting to be done. Are you just, you're just doing your absolute best and you're— I— or man, you're just in between songs praying to God like, oh my goodness, Lord, just help me, give me strength. Yeah, please, please reinvigorate my heart because it feels dead.

Like, I need But that's like the lady who puts the copper coin in.

Oh my goodness, yes.

Yeah.

And, and the thing that always is so humbling about those ones is you get done, and those are the ones when people stay for like 3 hours and spill their heart to you.

Yeah.

And you're like, oh my goodness, God uses me even when I am not what I should be.

Yeah.

And that's what's so cool about the opportunity we have as worship leaders and songwriters Yeah, and it's, it's a, it's a funny thing too, I think, when—

because I think what you're really describing is faith, is trying to be faithful to what your calling is, you know, and trying to just do the best you can. And it's not always for the one who is called to always feel like doing it, but they do it anyway. Yeah, and there are those nights that, um, or days, whenever they are, depending on, on what the situation is. Sometimes it's morning, mid-morning. Churches are strange because it's not your normal venue. You've got different times a day. But there are those times, aren't there, you go in and you think, I want to be off the platform now because these people hate me. Yeah, you know. And then you'll find that sometimes that, that what— for whatever reason you felt that way, it's that person that, that you felt like was probably just, you know, staring holes in you with their laser beam stare, thinking, I can't stand you. That's the person that meets you at the CD table afterwards that was just like, "My life was transformed tonight." You know? Yeah! Oh my God. It's amazing that— and again, I think it's this— God uses us in spite of us, I think, a lot of times. Yes, he does.

Man, I'm the biggest believer in those are those moments where God says, and just reminds us that it's not just you, you know?

Yeah.

It's so humbling and so incredible to see how God can use us in spite of it. It's just so powerful.

The passage that comes to mind is like, "Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will lift you up in due time." And I just, I think of those moments of that's him lifting us up at the right time. 'Cause maybe if he lifted us up at the beginning of that concert, we would've gotten a little arrogant.

Yeah.

But it needed to be an hour and a half of just sludging through like survival mode in order for us to like see a little like spark or whatever it is, that person at the merch table who's like, my life is changed, or whatever. Holy moly.

Like, yes.

Yeah.

Well, and you know, we've, we've been talking about some pretty heavy stuff tonight, but, um, there's, there's kind of an air of, of humor in the air too, and I'm thinking about, because you're describing some of the things too that I think everybody who's ever played a gig anywhere has, has experienced, you know. And I don't, I don't know if you know him or have crossed paths with, with my friend Andrew Osenga, um, or not over the years, but he's, he's a, he's a great musician, wonderful producer, and he has this wonderful story that he tells. And I, I think he even told it on— because he's in the new season of like, there's a children's show, Slugs and Bugs, um, that's out, and, uh, he was a guest on one of the episodes, and he tells this story of going back to play at his hometown in Normal, Illinois. And because he used to be in the band called The Normals, and, and it was just gonna— it was gonna be like his just like triumphant, I'm back in my hometown, I'm gonna have a great big crowd. And he gets there and he runs out on stage and he literally like slips and falls across and just like slides across the stage whenever he gets out there. And he he's— and he goes for him immediately. It reminded me when you said like, what if we got this big lift at the beginning? And he literally is like— it's running out the very first part of the show and he just falls and slides across the platform. And, um, then it's like, thanks Lord, good, good night here. But I think we've all, we've all kind of been there too. And what— one of my favorite— and sorry to talk so much, but no, it's, it's fun talking with you guys.— but one of my favorite Instagram feeds right now is Worship Fails. I don't know if you guys have checked that out.

We watch Worship Leader Problems, and they have a couple worship fails on it. I'll go follow them right now.

Oh my goodness. Worship Fails is one of the funniest things because you go, "Oh my goodness, I'm not alone." I've had that week the loop track starts at the wrong time, or it's in the wrong key from what everybody else is in, you know, somebody's in the middle of song with their hands upraised and their guitar strap comes loose and the guitar goes crashing on the floor right in the middle of, you know, it's, it's a, it's an amazing confidence builder for those of us that do that.

But yeah, well, it was like a couple days ago, we, we sat on Instagram and watched hundreds of those. Oh yeah, it was needed for sure.

Yes, it is such therapy for, for worship types, for sure. Yeah, it makes you feel like like, oh, thank God I don't have to be absolutely perfect all the time. And, oh my goodness, yes. And I always hope that I won't end up on there one day, but you know, the day, the day, the day may come. That's— that will finally be my viral video, the one where I fall off the platform and, uh, catch on fire from the candles at the communion table or something, you know. It's gonna— oh my God. Yes.

Oh my goodness.

Oh man. Well, you know, I realized I told you guys around a half hour and we're heading closer to the 45-minute mark right now. But Seth and Jenna, it's been so much fun getting to talk to you and talk about some very serious things and to share some laughs with you tonight. But I want to make sure everybody has all the information that they need about your album Even in the Dark. And, and I asked you before we started to be thinking about a song that you would like me to play to close out the show today. So in just a moment, I'm gonna ask you to tell me that. But before we kind of wrap up tonight, tell my listeners just some of the ways that they can find out more about you, whether it be social media information or how they can find out more about the album and stream it and different things like that. Just tell them what they need to know right now.?

Yes, well, our favorite— uh, we don't love social media, I'll just say that— but our favorite social media out of all of them is Instagram, and you can find us on Him and Her Worship. Um, so it's just 'and' spelled out instead of plus. I understand that can be kind of confusing. Um, our website is also himandherworship.com. Um, there you can find— I think that's a really good place to find everything. So you'll find like our tour dates and um, music, and you can buy chord charts and our merch and stuff like that.

Yeah.

And then YouTube, YouTube, Him Plus Her, Him and Her Worship there. Um, and then on Spotify, Apple Music, iTunes, all of that. We're on all the streaming platforms. It's Him Plus Her Worship. Um, yeah, is that it?

Yeah, yeah, terrific. And, and I do want to say to listeners too, you know, it really does help artists when you can go and stream their music, even, even if you're not one that goes out and buys physical copies anymore. Yes, it really does help artists whenever people stream our music. And, and it really, uh, it's also a confidence booster to know like, hey, somebody's listening today, because we get to see those numbers eventually.

Yes.

But I want to say this to everybody listening, like, it's, it's a really good record, and I think it's a very timely album for right now, from the title to all of the tracks on it. I think everything is, is very much for the moment we're living in, in this time. So thank you for sharing it. So, so let me ask the question then, um, what song should we close out with today from your new project Even in the Dark?

I'm kind of thinking it'll be—

yeah, I'd say it'll be all right.

It's a deep track, so if you want something light and fluffy, maybe go to the album and find Psalm 27 or Faithful, but Um, I think It'll Be Alright is like—

it's the song that we wrote the day my mom passed away. It has been relevant to so many people, and I think it is more timely than ever. Yeah, just the reminder that, you know, maybe the— our life won't turn out the way we want it to. It might not be amazing. We might not be super happy all the time, but we all know how our story ends, and Jesus is someone to trust in, and because of that, we know that it'll be all right. So I think that's a song to end with.

Yeah, it'll be all right. Well, I'm glad you said that because we've, we've talked a lot about the story behind it, and I'm glad to give listeners a chance to hear it. So we will close out the, the program today with It'll Be All Right from the new album Even in the Dark by Him and Her Worship. And Him and Her Worship is Seth and Jenna Ehrlich. I think I said it correctly this time. And it has really been a joy. So as I say to my guests every week when they come on this show, Seth and Jenna, thank you for being two of the voices in my head this week.

Oh, thank you so much. God bless you, Rick. Thank you.

When I see the stars light up the sky They let me know that you're here in the night. It has to be dark before it is light. It won't be long till the sun will rise. Oh, I know. It'll be all right. Oh, I know it'll be all right. When I see the sun awaken the night, I believe you bring the sleeping to life. You promise Your mercies are good, your mercies are new. Oh Lord, I will trust in you, 'cause you're with me through it all. 'Cause you're with me through it all. No matter day or night or stormy weather, I know it'll be alright. I know it'll be alright. When my days are done and my body fails me, I will see your face with your arms embrace me. But until that day that I rise to heaven, I will run these Do it all, sing praises. Do it all, sing praises. And I will see you clearly, and I know you're with me. I know. It'll be alright. Oh, I know it'll be alright. Oh, I know it'll be alright.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at RickLeeJames.com, where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, follow my blog, and even schedule me for a concert or a speaking engagement. Better yet, even a book signing in your neighborhood. You can find all that and more at RickLeeJames.com. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, The more visible this podcast will be online. And now for the benediction: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. God bless you, and thank you for listening to Voices in My Head.