Hymn For The 81% with guest Daniel Deitrich - Episode 398

Hey friends, Rick Lee James here inviting you to join me over at rickleejames.substack.com. Substack is a great new free platform that helps me connect directly with all of you who listen to my music and podcasts. All you have to do is subscribe with your email address and that's it. It's easy to use and we can interact right away. So go to rickleejames.substack.com for some inspiration in your inbox. Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, a songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more with friends, colleagues, and sometimes just by myself. Now make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes or by tweeting at me @RickLeeJames on Twitter. And please join my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. By the way, in case you're interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the voices in my head. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of Voices in My Head. Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I'm your host Rick Lee James, and I'm so glad that you're here with me tonight for what I know is going to be another great conversation. On January 21st, 2020, Religion News Service posted an article written by Shane Claiborne that said, "A lot of contemporary worship music doesn't offer the best theology, but 'Hymn for the 81%'" by a South Bend, Indiana worship leader has gone viral with a cocktail of prophetic fire and Christlike grace. Daniel Dietrich, Daniel Dietrich, who wrote and performed "Hymn for the 81%," is a singer-songwriter based in South Bend, Indiana. His honest, heartbreaking, yet hopeful writing finds a home in massive Americana anthems, catchy indie rock hooks, as well as intimate acoustic confessionals. He stopped by for a podcast visit today, and I couldn't be happier about it. Daniel Dietrich, welcome to Voices in My Head.

Hey, thanks for having me.

Well, I am really glad to have a chance to finally get to talk to you. I've been a fan of yours for a while and have been following you, I guess, since, man, maybe it was late last year, early this year, whenever "Hymn for the 81%" came out. But it began getting a lot of exposure, and I just had one friend after another that would send me links to it and say, "You've got to check out this song. You've got to check it out." And it was just great. It was one of those things that was just organically happening that people in the church who were not a part of that 81% were really needing kind of a voice, you know. And, and I feel like in many ways God used that song. So I'm looking forward to talking with you about it. And at the end of our program tonight, I'm going to play the song. But I'm really excited to just get to know you a little bit as a person too this evening. And I told you before we started recording, I found out that we have a mutual old friend in Cliff Ritchie. And so I thought, you know what, let's start right off talking about old Cliff and see— seeing our connection with him. Because for those of you listening who don't know, and many of you probably don't, Cliff Ritchie is an amazing singer-songwriter, one of the best guitar players I've ever had the chance to play with. And I've known him for probably 25 years, all the way back when he had a band called Fisher's Net. And I played a few gigs with Fisher's Net back in the day. We did a a youth pastor internship together in Middletown, Indiana one summer, and that's when I really got to know Cliff. And then, uh, his band turned into— let's see, I think it was— they went from Fishers Net to become AM Drive. AM Drive, that's right. I couldn't remember if AM Drive came first or Peterson Fly, uh, came next, or was Peterson Fly the second one?

I think Peterson Fly for like a minute.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, uh, but anyway, just— and then he'd had a number of, uh really great solo projects. But I just found out today from a podcast that you host, um, that you were friends with Cliff as well. So what's your connection with him? I'd love to know a little bit more how you guys met up.

Yeah, uh, we met, uh, he was in Fisher's Net at the time, and, uh, we met at a camp and, uh, hit it off. And then my band I would play with his band during the AM Drive days. And Cliff has been like a mentor and a really good friend ever since. He engineered and recorded our first band record.

Oh wow.

We got in, we were in Gaither Studios. He was working there at the time.

Yeah, I remember that.

Like million dollar room. And he got a like after hours to record our first, uh, record as a band. Um, took the photos for our album cover. Like, he helped us step of the way. And, uh, so I've just been really grateful for him, uh, in the years since too.

So, you know, the irony about him is him— I always remember thinking while he was working in Gaither Studio just how much he hated, with the, the Fires of a Thousand Suns, uh, Southern gospel music. And I always thought ironic it was that he was working in Gaither Studio and he would send out little messages from time to time, this music's driving me insane. But it was funny. It was neat to hear some of the work he got to do out of that studio too. And it was just always an interesting match. Incredibly talented guy. I could talk about him for a while. And I've always been jealous of his talent because because man, he's, he's got a lot of it for sure.

Um, oh yeah, he's just such a killer writer and guitarist and just all-around good person.

Yeah. Well, you know what, now that we've, uh, we've met on that mutual ground of Cliff together, and I'd love to— I'd love to get to know you a little bit more and let my listeners know more about who you are. Many of them, I'm sure, have probably heard at least one of your songs by now, and, and if they're like me, they probably went to your catalog on Apple Music or Spotify and start listening through some of your other music as well. But it's not often that we get a chance just to sit down and get to know you a little bit. So I wonder if we could start tonight, maybe you could share some of your background with us. And I'd love to especially kind of hear your faith background because it's probably similar to what a lot of our listeners, you know, grew up with. And you can hear it coming through in the song Like Him for the 81%. So just maybe tell us a bit of your background, kind of where you grew up and what kind of church you were a part of, and kind of, kind of bring us up to the present day.

Like, like I hint in the song, like, I grew up in the church. It was a Church of God out of Anderson, Indiana, the denomination. The church itself, I grew up in Southwest Michigan. And so from an early age, I Uh, you know, I remember junior high, I was a super shy kid and, uh, my parents reached out to the youth pastor and he showed me a few chords on guitar and got me in the youth band, kind of my, my in to music and church. And so I grew up playing in the church band in high school and then went off to college at Anderson University in Anderson, Indiana. And, uh, it was there that I really started to make my faith my own. Um, I started asking questions and, um, oftentimes met with unsatisfactory answers, as, uh, as tends to happen. Um, so I had, had big questions and The, uh, a, a real mark, a real mile marker for me was a trip to Nepal through my college. And, uh, we got to work alongside Mother Teresa's missionaries for a little bit and just witnessing their commitment to the way of Jesus, just this selfless giving their lives in service to the poorest of the poor.

Yeah.

Uh, was just deeply inspiring. Then I came back to the US and just had sort of this crisis of faith, probably unfairly, you know, looked around the college in my evangelical bubble and, uh, not satisfied with how the American church was living out its faith. And so that started, um, you know, what many refer to as a deconstruction. I started the pieces of the house of cards, the cards started to fall. And it was kind of a slow-motion deconstruction. I had big questions and some voices along the way kind of inviting me deeper into those conversations. I feel like Rob Bell was a big one for everybody that kind of— encouraged questions. Like, his books are just all a bunch of questions, like, what if, what if this isn't what we think it is? And yeah, what if God really is as loving as he is? And, um, so I dropped out of college, or like I like to put it, I took a break from college and I'm still on, still on, which is probably good for the student loan aspect of things. But so I toured with a band, uh, shortly after that, um, band I started in high school and then we continued through, um, my 20s basically, toured around the world and, um, got pretty close at a couple of points, you know, thought we had made it. We signed with a label in LA and recorded an album out there and, uh, you know, just every indie band's dream, like you sign on the dotted line, you think you've You've arrived. And then a few months after we had mixed the record, the, the whole label folded, just ceased to exist. The two partners couldn't agree on stuff, so they split up. And they sat on our masters though. So we, we didn't own our masters. We learned like a lot of hard lessons from the music business. Yeah. And From that, we, we re-recorded the whole album ourselves and released it, and being kind of our last album as a band, um, and just real life caught up with us, you know, jobs and started having families, and tour wasn't, uh, cutting it for, you know, raising a family.

I understand.

And that sort of thing. Yeah, you get it.

Hey, from there, do you mind if I cut in just a second to ask what the name of your band was?

Yeah, the name of the band is Rocket Ship.

Say it one more time.

I'm just still living out of—

you cut out for just a second. Johnny's Rocket Ship.

Johnny's Little Rock. Oh yeah, terrible name, but really great band.

I don't think it's a bad name at all. I think it's nice.

That's good compared to other band names. Equally weird.

And yeah, that's great. Now please continue. I'm sorry to cut you off, I just was curious.

Yeah, from there, uh, you know, coming back to the church and, um, became a worship leader in the church I grew up in, kind of part-time. And then that's slowly turned into full-time, which turned into me becoming like the pastor of young adults and worship And, um, through that whole experience, I was still asking questions, pushing the envelope, and really went through a season sort of giving up on church and especially on worship music. I was just so burned out on, um, you know, you get up there, play your 3 songs that are just the same couple of phrases over and over. The goal is to elicit sort of emotional response to prepare people for the sermon, which is the main event. And I was just really burned out on that thing. I was like, is this really like what church is about? Is this— is this what worship is about? And, um, a few voices. Aaron Nyquist is one, and his work with A New Liturgy. I don't know if you're familiar with that, but there's these 25-minute audio, uh, kind of reflective. There's a couple songs, some meditations, some prayers and scriptures.

Yeah.

And then bands like The Brilliance and Gungor really sort of cracked open, like, oh, it doesn't have to be this way forever. Like, you can incorporate different elements and worship actually be spiritual formation. It doesn't have to be just like emotional manipulation for the main event.

Yeah, yeah, no, that's, that's a good way to put it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that brings us, uh A little closer to the present, 4 years ago I started a church in South Bend, uh, where we live now.

And now, if I'm not mistaken, that's the home of Mayor Pete, isn't it? Uh, yeah, yeah, I thought, I thought South Bend sounded familiar. Are you, are you fairly close to Elkhart, uh, that area?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, right next door to Elkhart.

All right. Yeah, my sister lives not far from there, so yeah, I, I was thinking that was right. And I've played one or two concerts in that area over the last few years, so I was trying to get my bearings. It's been, you know, 2020 has been a long decade, and so it's been so long since I've traveled anywhere to play this year. So anyway, I keep interrupting you. I'm sorry, I'm just trying to get the geography of it. So you're very close to Michigan where you are then in South Bend, and you're at a church that you started. And please continue from there. I'd love to hear I'd love to hear what kind of church it is and the kind of people that you worship with.

Yeah, uh, so it was a beautiful church, uh, we started it from the ground up. I moved down here to help start it. I was, you know, the pastor of worship and arts, and we really wanted to be a church for those who didn't fit or weren't welcome in a lot of the churches I'd been a part of. Until then, and so we were in church. We cared about justice and reconciliation and some of the, you know, big questions about scripture and inerrancy and what do we do with the Bible and how do we live it out. Just tackled those head-on and It was really great. And then released him, the 1%, in January, late January. And I was actually let go from the church shortly after that. So no longer with that church.

Was that because of the song or was— if you don't mind me asking.

Yeah, I'm not, I'm not allowed to like talk about it, but okay, the statement is like, uh, the public statement is like, I— there was no hint of immorality or moral failings, but we reached an impasse.

Wow.

Okay, so you can—

yeah, well, excuse me for prying. I wasn't trying to, I just— it was—

no, no.

It was a real— it's been a difficult season even since then. It was, it was kind of my last hurrah, my last try at church. Sure. And, um, to have it end like it did was just a real, a real blow.

Yeah.

You know, they— when you get let go from a church, you you lose community as well as income overnight. And so it's just tough spot, but we've been doing all right and around us that have, yeah, well, that have helped us.

And well, let me say, I'm, I'm sorry. And I've known several people in that, um, in that place and that, that is a very hard place. And, uh, I, it's hard to know what to say in those moments other than my heart hurts with you and I'm sorry because that really is a family situation when you're in a community like that for sure. So yeah. Well, I didn't mean to cut you off. You were still going. But it sounds like you've had some ups and some downs, as many of us do. But I want to, if you don't mind, unless you wanted to share any more of your story, I'd love to maybe dive in just a little bit about kind of where Him for the 81% came about and probably sort of the roller coaster ride that has followed as a result of its release. I wonder if this would be a good time to kind of dive into that just a little bit. Sure.

Yeah, I think, um, the seeds of that song started, you know, then for the 2016 election. Uh, our church at the time was just starting out. We were meeting on Wednesday nights, actually, um, while we were looking for a more per— And so we gathered the night after the election. I just remember, uh, so many of my friends were just really upset and not just like, oh, my team lost. That's a bummer. Yeah. Um, I had friends that felt less safe. Um, yeah, because of their identity, their skin color, um, their immigration status. A number of things. And, um, through the years since, um, you know, I just watched the larger-than-life voices that my faith— you know, the Dr. James Dobsons and the, the Franklin Grahams and, you know, all those evangelical rock stars.

Yeah.

Um, either be completely silent in the face of like mounting evil, or they were like defending it. That was the hardest part for me. I just, I could not fathom how the people that told me character matters and that no matter what, you follow the way of Jesus even if it means giving up or prestige or money or whatever, just like fall in line. Yeah. And so, um, it's baffling. Yeah, I was just a— yeah, it's just baffling. And I, I was just a, you know, small town worship leader. I didn't have a platform or anything like that, but I felt like I had to say something. And so, you know, I wrote Him for the 81% and put it out there into the world. And I thought, like most of my songs, a few hundred people might listen to it and enjoy it, and, uh, we are our day. Um, but it really seemed to strike a chord and, uh, kind of took on a life of its own, which has been both amazing and dating from a, oh, this is how things like that happen perspective.

Yeah, yeah. Well, well, and as I, as I said before, I, I think it, it enabled a lot of us to kind of articulate things that we had been feeling and probably things that we had been saying for a while. And yet you said it in a way that, um, you know, Shane probably said it best, uh, Claiborne, you know, when he was talking about the, uh, how did he phrase it? He said, uh, um, and I read it earlier, it was something about, um, the prophetic fire and Christ-like grace. You know, there's a sense in which there's this grace that you were able to write about, um, in the song, um, that, that is not It's not a hateful tirade or anything. Like, so often I feel like we get caught up in these culture wars, and right now politics has become religion and sports, you know, to so many people. And so it's turned into this routine of my side is good, your side is evil, and no matter what my side or your side does, nothing will ever change that. And so we talk to each other in dehumanizing ways. And people, you know, kind of scream across the aisle, and just because you're not on my team, you're no longer even worthy of compassion or grace or anything. And there's a sense in which the way that you have laid it out so poetically in your lyrics, that you're actually talking like you're talking to someone you love dearly, you know. Yeah. And you're saying, I can't believe I'm You know, I have a holy disappointment in what I'm seeing right now, you know, and I don't know what else to do. And I think that the shock that you express and that God has helped you articulate through this song is the same shock that so many of us were feeling. I mean, what do you do when the people that are your heroes of the faith and have taught you everything you know about Jesus, brought you to Jesus, endorse the most un-Christlike and ungodly person that we can almost imagine, you know? And not, not, not just like—

it's almost comical.

Yeah, yeah. It's not, it's not just like, well, I held my nose and voted because I felt like it was the, you know, the lesser of two evils. I totally get that. Like, I kind of, I have a fair amount of compassion for that, you know. But it turned into not that, it was like just full-throated support. Jesus wants this, and if you want to follow Jesus and be faithful to God, then you have to support every immorality you're seeing right now. And, um, and so I, I guess all that to say is, you know, I'm with you. I hear these words and it's something I've said and, and prayed time and time again, like, Lord, I'm so shocked. For me, and maybe you can attest to this as well because you had discussed about your friends and people that felt unsafe after 2016. I can only liken it to the way I felt when 9/11 happened in 2001, and there was this sick feeling the morning after of like, what just happened here? You know, like, I can't quite believe what's going on. Like, I was I was not thrilled about Hillary, but I was resigned to her. I had no— I couldn't believe it when, you know, the following morning I was like, well, great, now what's going to happen? You know, how do I talk to my wife this morning? But did you, did you kind of get that kind of feeling too? And not like— and the only way I can describe it, like, there was a time after 9/11 where, like, comedians talk about going into comedy clubs and they said the laughter was strange, you know, like for months after because they couldn't quite, like people didn't know quite how to laugh yet, you know. It was strange. So I guess all of my talking is leading into that. Did you kind of feel like you were having a similar experience to that and the people around you were?

Yeah, and at first it was almost like, is this a bad dream? This can't have really happened. And then when the numbers came out that 81% of white evangelicals, yeah, just voted en masse for this guy, it was just—

it was us.

Yeah, it was like, yeah, yeah.

I mean, that was, that was what I felt. I was like, we did this.

Yeah.

Like, for me, it really caused an examination of like what, you know, I don't think this is a bug, it's a feature, you know, evangelical culture. Like this, this, the, like, evangelical church paved the way, and it wasn't like you said, it wasn't hold your nose and vote for this guy. There was a celebration of his brashness is off-color, like tough guy, whatever. Uh, there's a great book out right now called Jesus and John Wayne.

Yeah, I've read it.

Great. Gets into this. Oh yeah. And just how like this is the culmination of, uh, like the scriptural Jesus behind and instead following some sort of like John Wayne MMA fighter Jesus that, yeah, really doesn't match up with the scriptures. And yeah, I think, uh, the hardest part has been like realizing my own complicity in that ecosystem, in that world, and trying to come to grips with like, how do we fix such a huge problem, I guess, for lack of a better word.

Well, and when you—

it's not going to change with the election overnight, you know, this issue is still going to remain.

Yeah, well, you know, I'm glad you mentioned that book Jesus and John Wayne because there is a very similar flow and I've I've kind of asked that question as well. Like you just said, I wonder if it's not a bug, I think it's a feature. And that book was very insightful in many ways. And one thing that I had— the John Wayne thing, even more than she goes into in that amazing book, I had done some study about John Wayne a few years ago because when I was a kid growing up, for whatever reason, you know, the Saturday afternoon westerns were on TV. And I, somewhere in my elementary school years, I just idolized John Wayne. I just thought he was like, you know, that, that's it, that's what a man is, you know. Yeah, it's an American. Well then, well then, when I started researching the real man, you know, um, I found out like what a role he played in McCarthyism. I found out that he, he dodged the draft by using his family as an excuse, like, um, Whenever it was time for him to be called to the war, and he said, you know, he basically used, I can't, I've got to support my family, which, which you would think would be a noble thing. Or even if he had sort of a, you know, I'm a pacifist or whatever, you know. But the reality was he used his family as the excuse while he was living at a hotel with his girlfriend and basically ignored his family, let them like didn't provide for them in that time that he said he was, you know. So there was all these contradictions, like when I learned about like the real John Wayne, not just the one on the screen. And I just found it like it was, it was almost that same kind of bubble burst, you know, like, like, really, this was the guy that I thought was, you know, what it meant to be a man or, you know, an American or whatever. And, um, so it's interesting that you, you brought that up because that book does a great job of exploring ways that pop Christianity— I, we can call it white evangelicalism or whatever, but I think it really in many ways is sort of this poppy, watered-down, you know, kind of, I guess we'll call it happy-clappy evangelical Christianity, you know, like where it's taken us to in many ways. And, and it's been so obsessed with like toxic masculinity. They call it biblical manhood, but it's really toxic in a lot of ways.

Yeah.

And I think we find that like this person that was put in the White House, which is an embodiment of so many of those things. And so you have, you know, instead of calling it what it is, a person joking about sexual assault back, you know, when the Access Hollywood tapes came out, we suddenly justified it with, no, it's locker room talk. And I thought, which locker room are you guys going to?

Because that's not like— Exactly.

Like, I go to the gym all the time. I never hear people talk like that.

Like, I've never been in that locker room.

Never, never in my life. And I went to a pretty rough school at one point. So anyway, so in a sense, we're not— I want to get back to you and let you talk. It's just, it's good to have this conversation for me. I rarely get to have it. But there's a great line in your song that you talk about. It says, "You weaponize religion and you wonder why I'm leaving to find Jesus on the wrong side of your walls." And I have to wonder, and this may— I'm sorry if it does— this may bring some more painful realities to you that I'm sure you've probably experienced since releasing the song. But what kind of pushback, I'm wondering, have you personally experienced from articulating things that way? Because I know on my end I've had friends who were desperate for someone in the community that actually had a voice that could say something like this. And that's why I kept getting all these emails and tweets and Facebook messages like, you've got to hear this, he says it just like it, you know, this is what my heart is saying, you know. But on the other hand, I'm sure— I'm only guessing, but I'm sure you must have almost gotten like a Dixie Chicks-like pushback, you know, like, shut up, shut up and sing, you know, like, we don't want you to We don't want you to get political, or, you know, and so I'm just curious, what, what kind of, what kind of that have you encountered? I mean, has there been a lot of that?

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Um, I'll preface it all by saying like the good has definitely outweighed the bad. Like you said, those messages, uh, I got just a ton of positive messages like, thank you for articulating how I felt, and I left church 20 years ago, and this— I— but I now I don't feel so alone kind of stuff. Just really, um, inspiring and, uh, messages I was really grateful for.

Yeah.

Uh, but yeah, there was definitely some, some backlash. Um, after Shane posted that article, it got picked up by, uh, a few other news outlets, and it eventually hit Fox News' homepage. And as soon as it hit Fox News, it was just like this deluge of hate mail and just horrible, like, death threats, arson threats, all quote "good Christian people," you know, "How dare you speak about, you know, 'God this way, this isn't a worship song,' 'I'd put you in a cage and blow your head off,' like crazy horrible stuff. But that's just sort of the nature of the internet now too. You say anything, post anything, and there's going to be people from the safety and anonymity of their keyboard that will just say anything. So that Yeah, uh, just sort of rolled, rolled off my back. Um, the internet troll kind of thing. Um, but definitely it caused hard conversations, um, you know, with people I love and, um, in my own community. And so yeah, it's definitely Uh, yeah, made for some, some tumultuous times as well. But you know, in the grand scheme of things, like so many people have risked and paid way more for speaking up than I have. And so like, I would never consider myself feel sorry for me. I'm a martyr kind of thing. Like I knew what I was getting into. And said what I said because I felt like I needed to. And, uh, yeah, yeah.

Well, it's, it's, it's a, it's a tough, um, it's a tough burden to carry your cross, you know. And in some ways, I feel like what, what you were doing was doing your best to be faithful to the gospel as, as you're hearing it. You know, and, um, and you don't intend to like invite the scorn of the world or even the praise of the world. You're just trying to be faithful. And, and especially as songwriters, we're always kind of working out our emotions, I think, in the things that we're writing, you know. And sometimes it's the best way to, um, to put things out there. Uh, and I, I just think it's a, um, it's a powerful thing when music can, you know, bring about like such deep emotion in that way. And, and if memory serves, looking at the, uh, the picture that was connected to that article that Shane Claiborne put out, um, I believe it was the picture of all those very prominent worship leaders like Carrie Jobe and different ones who were in the White House surrounding the president, which was another time— was, I always wonder, like, you know, I know some of these people and they're, they're they're good people, like they're, they're loving people. And, and I've had the chance to, uh, have interactions with many of them over the years. And, and I thought, you know, was, was there a moment where like you actually got to speak some truth into the situation? My, my fear of the whole situation of, you know, like chasing after power like this is all the people who say they care about the president, in reality, I wonder if they really do, you know what I mean? Because the reality is, if he, if he wasn't president, um, because I don't want to pick on him too much, because to me he's a symptom of, of a much greater problem. He's been enabled to be the person he is by the circles he's traveled in and, and things like that. Um, so to me, like a Christian, if he wasn't president, if he was just some guy that we know that is connected to our congregation or something, like, wouldn't our responsibility be to him? Like, look, you're getting up in years, and, um, you know, I'm not trying to judge you, but you've got a lot to be accountable for, and it doesn't look like you are professing any sort of faith at all. Like, you know, like, like, in fact, it seems the opposite. Like, I'm wondering if— I don't even think I should let my kids around you, to be honest, you know, type guy. Like, yeah, like, like, don't you think it's time to, you know, approach the Lord about these things? Like, shouldn't we be calling to repentance, you know? And that, that's the saddest thing about all this to me, that for something like politics, partisan politics anyway, not kingdom politics, So many have decided, um, I don't really care where Donald Trump spends eternity because I'm going to get what I want out of this office, you know. And I've often wondered, like, you know, we're heading to the end of his presidency. Well, these people who have been so enabling of him, like, okay, so is there going to ever be an attempt to disciple this guy? Like, is he, is he going to be what you you call a baby Christian forever, you know, which I don't even think he's, he's, uh, even begun that walk. I don't think there's any indication of that. Um, but it's, yeah, it's, it's been staggering to think. And then to hear you tell that story about, you know, Christian people calling to tell you they're going to put you in a cage and, you know, blow your head off and all those kind of things, it's just, it's amazing to me where we've come and It reminds me, like, we need, we need something, um, akin to, I guess, what I would call revival, but not in, not in the sense of a revival as I've always thought of it, you know, like, like an actual real coming of faith, like something that says, I follow Jesus. And as Jesus reminded me, reminds us in scripture, the kingdom of God is among us right now. You know, like we live in a different politic already. And these things that everybody's running after, that's, that's not where I live, you know. Jesus is Lord and no one else. So I don't bow to Caesar. I say to Caesar, thus says the Lord, you know. And I think that's, I think that's what we've lost, and, and if we ever had it. But anyway, well, I wanted to ask you too, while I have you here. I'm sorry, I'm talking way more than I usually talk with my guests, but there's just so much to say. I feel like in some ways the spigot is open and it's coming out. But right now it's great. I'd love to ask you too, I know that you've been doing some work with Vote Common Good. And yeah, and I don't know a lot about Vote Common Good. I've been running into some faith-based organizations that deal with politics, but not in a way that says like, you know, in order to follow Jesus you have to vote this way. It's more this idea of— and you can tell me if I'm wrong and inform me a little bit more— but Vote Common Good seems to me more like a group of people that say, yes, we follow Jesus and our allegiance is completely to him. And so the thing that we're doing is asking, how can I best love my neighbor? And simply use politics as a tool, you know. So I don't know if I'm hitting it on the head, but I'd love for you to share a little bit more about sort of Vote Common Good and your work with them.

Yeah, yeah, Vote Common Good, uh, I got to know through releasing the song. They reached out. Doug Padgett is the executive director there, and he reached out and was like, hey, we're doing this cross-country bus tour, and we think your song would, would really fit well with what we're doing. You want to do some dates with us? And, uh, so I jumped, jumped on the bus with him for a few dates, and that turned into more dates. And then the shutdown happened, we went digital for a while, and then from August until election night, we were on the road in swing states and doing a rally just a night. And so Vote Common Good is, it's more about the voters than the politicians. And so we, at one part of our rallies, which are kind of like, there's music, there's speaking, pretty high energy, a lot of fun. Pretty hard-hitting, um, truth-telling. Uh, there's a part where we would read, you know, love is patient, love is kind, and read through that passage and say, can you replace love with the name of a politician you're thinking about voting for? Yeah. Can you put Trump's name in there? You know, Trump is patient, Trump is kind, Trump You know, and if you feel good about—

record of wrong, right?

It's not boastful, you know, right? If you feel comfortable pulling the lever for, for him after reading that and, um, you know, this candidate to these values that we say we hold dear, um, then good on you. But if, if you feel like that doesn't sit well with your soul, what this candidate says and represents, then Maybe we have to go in a different direction. And so Vote Common Good is bipartisan. There's Republicans and Independents and Democrats. And it's also not just a Christian thing, faith-based. And so one of my friends on the tour is a Sufi Muslim. And we had, you know, partnerships with rabbis and Universalists and Wow. Um, so kind of a broad, like, people of faith that, that want to see a change on election and really focusing not on the, the negatives, but calling us all to, to a higher calling. Yeah. Like to say on the, in the rallies, like, we're not here to remind you how bad Trump is. We're here to remind you how good you are.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, call ourselves to those standards. So.

Wow.

And it was a, it was a really great, great run. It was life-giving to me to feel useful and feel like I was a part of something. And it was geared toward like, we, we knew 81% of white evangelicals voted for Trump. And we also knew that if we could sway or broadly, if America could sway just 5% of those voters away from Trump, that that would determine the election. And it's still pretty early, but preliminary numbers say that that's about what happened, that about 76% of white evangelicals voted for Trump. And there was not a huge, you know, not enough to feel good about, sway away from Trump, but a significant number of people, probably close to 3 million people, changed their minds and didn't vote for Trump a second time. Yeah, pretty encouraging that way.

Yeah, well, yeah, and I mean, there's, there's a lot to be encouraged about and a lot to be discouraged about, I guess, all at the same time. And we're sitting here in the midst of, you know, just, it just still seems like chaos and craziness in so many ways. But, but thank you for sharing about Vote Common Good because it really sounds like a neat group of people. Sadly, I didn't really find out about them until, you know, just weeks ago because it sounds like such a worthwhile thing to be a part of. I don't know if it's just because, you know, I've been pretty much— I haven't left my town really for since, I guess, probably February, just because, you know, we're home and online school and everything else, learning everything. It seems like every church service I do is 3 times harder now because there's extra, you know. I just feel like I've lost track of so many things. But I'm glad to know about that, and I'm gonna look to them more in the future. I hope you guys will do things together more, maybe as we head into other elections and things. But, um, but yeah, you know, let me ask you this too before we end our conversation tonight. And, and I don't want to like keep you for hours on end, but I'm enjoying talking with you. And, um, I, I wonder, with all that you've been through, I know it sounds like there's been a lot of downs, uh, and a lot of ups and, and places in between. And then it's good to hear that you found a place where You did feel used for good, like with Vote Common Good, after the disappointment of a church letting you go that you loved a lot. And I just wondered, like, how are you doing? Are you feeling like you're at a place where you're personally being nourished? You know, like you're feeling like, you know, I guess I'm asking, like, how can we pray for you? Might be the best thing I could ask at this point. Because I always want to try to be an encouragement and have our listeners, who I know many of them, if you say I'm going to pray for you on this, they're going to do it, you know. So I really just kind of want to find out, how, how are you, you know, you and your family?

And yeah, thanks for asking. I really appreciate that. Um, we're doing okay. It's really been a hard season. Um, yeah, but we, through the tour, to meet so many good people that have really, um, restored my faith in the Jesus movement. Um, you know, met so many, um, people doing good work in their towns and in their cities that you know, for the most part goes underappreciated and overlooked. So it's just really inspiring to meet so many great people following the way of Jesus and really loving their neighbors well. But yeah, we're at a point where we're trying to figure out for our family, and so honestly prayers for wisdom and guidance and opportunities. Um, yeah, all appreciated.

Yeah. So, well, good. Well, listeners, you— I, I'm counting on you to add Daniel and his family to your prayer list because, um, I mean, we've all been there at some point where we're kind of facing the future and wondering what God has next for us. And I wish, I wish sometimes God would just be clear and unambiguous about things like that, and yet it doesn't always to be the way that God chooses. I always think of one of my favorite lyrics by Rich Mullins in his song "Hard to Get," where he says, "I can't see where you're leading me unless you've led me here where I'm lost enough to let myself be led." And I always think, man, that just says it all. I'm here where I'm lost enough to let myself be led. Which reminds me, I'm guessing you probably have a bit of fandom for Rich Mullins, some there in your musical background. And I was recalling when I had Shane Claiborne on my podcast a little over, maybe it's 2 years ago now, we were talking about Rich Mullins because he was friends with Rich. And so it's pretty cool to see you and Shane kind of getting together for that article and all. But are you a Rich Mullins guy?

I love Rich Mullins. Uh, I remember actually a big, a big moment for my faith. I was just, um, it was probably early college and stressing over this idea of God's will for my life. Like, what is God's will? Where does God want me to go to college? What does God want me to do? Um, you know, you can get real granular with that, right? Like, what does God want me to do for fun on the weekend? Should I be serving at the soup kitchen, or is it okay, you know, just hang out with friends? You can make yourself crazy thinking about it. And I saw this interview with Rich Lee James, um, and asked him that question, like, how do you know God's will for your life? And Rich was like, you know, I don't think God cares what college you go to, what job you get. I think God cares if you love your neighbor. And it was just like a weight off my shoulders, like, oh gosh, maybe I'm way overthinking this. Like, maybe there isn't a set out step-by-step plan that I'm constantly failing. But maybe it's just this broad, do you love your neighbor? Are you loving God and loving others? And so yeah, Rich really helped me with that.

I'm glad to hear that. I mean, I could only assume because so many of us are shaped by the music Rich brought in his life. But yeah, that's good. I think you're a writer that's in the vein of Rich Mullins, and I hope you take that as the compliment that it is because—

Oh wow, yeah.

I really got— for whatever reason, there are some writers and some songs that I think for whatever moment God just uses them, and there's something that becomes greater than the song itself, and it's something that becomes greater than the writer. And I think Rich was like that, and what he brought. And honestly, I think "Hymn for the 81%" is something that for whatever reason God, I feel like, just has his hand on. You know, and it's something that, again, it transcends the songs, it transcends the writing, but for some reason, God is using the good work that you have done to be used on a huge scale. And so I'm very— maybe the best thing I could say is I'm proud of you for offering your gift in such a way that would allow God to use it in such a way that can be scary, you know, because if there's anything that when you release a song like that, especially in the time that we're in, it's one thing to write it, it's another thing to kind of put it out there in the world and see what happens with it. And so I think there's some courage in that as well. So I'm very proud of you and the work that you've done, and I know God is is definitely not finished with you, and I think there's going to be some amazing things in the future. And, and, you know, you know this too. I don't know what to do. I just want to offer you encouragement in any way that I can because—

no, I really appreciate that.

Yeah. Um, yeah, thank you. Well, this has been a great conversation. I hope you'll come back sometime and, and we can talk a little bit more. Um, but I think we're going to close the show tonight in just a minute by actually playing, uh, "Hymn for the 81%," your song. And, uh, if people haven't had a chance to hear it, they'll get to hear it there. And I, I want to let our listeners know that if they go to our website at voicesinmyheadpodcast.com and to this episode, um, I'm going to have as many links as I have available for Daniel and his music and ways that you can kind of help support him. He has a Patreon page where you can go to and offer him support, which I know helps him and his family. So we're gonna make sure and put links to all those things on voicesinmyheadpodcast.com. So is there anything else that you wanted to share with the people who may be listening right now? Anything else on your heart before we close up and listen to your song?

No, just appreciate you having me on and appreciate the conversation, and of course appreciate the prayers as well.

Well, you definitely have that, friend. So, uh, we're going to close out our time together with a hymn for the 81%. Daniel Dietrich, thank you for being one of the voices in my head this week.

I grew up in your church Sunday morning, evening service. Melt in tears at the foot of the rugged cross. You taught me every life is sacred. Feed the hungry and clothe the naked. Learned from you the highest law is love. And I believed you when you said that I should trust the words in Rick Lee James. To guide my steps through a wicked world. I assumed you'd do the same, so imagine my dismay when I watched you lead the sheep to the wolves. You said hello the lost, so I'm loving you now. You said speak the truth, I'm calling you out. Why don't you live the words that you put in my mouth? May love overcome and justice roll down. Oh, they started putting kids in cages, ripping mothers from their babies. I looked to you to speak on their behalf. Oh, but all I heard was silence, or worse, you justified it, singing glory, hallelujah, raise the flag. Oh, your fear turned to hatred, but you baptized it with language torn from the pages of the Good Book. You weaponized religion, and you wonder why I'm leaving to find Jesus on the wrong side of your walls. You said to love the lost, so I'm loving you now. You said to speak the truth, so I'm calling you out. Why don't you live the words that you put in my mouth? Mila, welcome. Justice rolled down. Come home, come home. Oya bada. You taught me better than this! Come home... come on you're— oh yeah?

"Come Home" by Eric Tomlinson Keith Moore .

Oh yes! <LYRICS>You've taught me better than this!" "Come home..." "Oh, you're better than this." "You've taught me better than this—" Come home. Come home. Oh. You said love the lost. I'm trying to love you now. You said speak the truth. So I'll call you out. I wish you'd live the words that you put in my mouth. Me love overcome, injustice won't allow. Me love overcome, injustice won't allow. Me love overcome. Injustice, fall down. May love overcome injustice, roll down.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, follow my blog, and even schedule me for a concert or speaking engagement. Better yet, even a book signing in your neighborhood. You can find all that and more at rickleejames.com. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, the more visible this podcast will be online. And now for the benediction. May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. God bless you, and thank you for listening to Voices in My Head.