Jason Gray Returns - Voices In My Head (The Rick Lee James Podcast) - Episode 537

Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, songwriter, author, worship leader, an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene, and most recently, a hospital chaplain. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss things that are on my mind, the voices in my head. Music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more are all on the table as I discuss them here with friends and colleagues and sometimes just by myself, processing what I'm learning in the moment. Make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes, tweeting to me @rickleejames on Twitter, and by joining my mailing list at rickleejames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. By the way, in case you are interested, interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the loudest voices in my head, which is ironic because he was such a quiet person. Also, if you do want to be notified about all of my latest releases, not just this podcast, sign up for email notifications on my Substack page found at Rick Lee James substack.com. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so let's get to the latest episode of Voices in My Head, the Rick Lee James podcast. Welcome back to Voices in My Head. Thank you all for listening. I know we have been somewhat sporadic with episodes lately and haven't been weekly as I like to do, just due to some of my schedule with grad school and work and life and all the things going on. But we're back today, and I am so glad to have all of you who are listening today. We have a very special guest on the call today, and that's Jason Gray. He is one of my very favorite artists in Christian music today, uh, such a, a very kind and warm person. And in addition to being such a great artist, uh, he's toured with people like Michael W. Smith, Steven Curtis Chapman, Third Day, TobyMac, and I could go on and on, and including headlining his own tours for, for many years now. Um, but he's doing some, some special kind of touring at the, the present moment where he's traveling around. He has his guitar and himself, and he's sharing stories and has different themes on different nights. And I'm excited to say that on March 10th, I'm going to be playing a few songs on the stage before he comes out in Springfield, Ohio with him. And we are just super excited to have him coming to Home Road Church of the Nazarene in March to share his ministry and some of his insights, stories, and music. So without any further introduction today, I just want to welcome back once again to Voices in My Head, the Rick Lee James podcast, Jason Gray. Thank you for being with us today.

It's so great being here with you. Thanks for having me, Rick.

Well, it's always a pleasure, and I feel like I've always got you near because it seems like your music is playing in our house all the time. And my wife and I both enjoy listening to it. And I just feel like—

Very kind to me. Thank you for all the kind words about that. It means a lot.

Well, it's sincere and from the heart. I, you know, kind of on a personal note, I think I've told you this over email before in the past, but I've been working for about the last year and a half as a hospital chaplain. And there have been times that your music—

I will—

I don't do this all the time, but I will take my guitar into rooms of patients sometimes. And, and your song Stolen has just been one that has spoken to so many people at so many different times. There's been occasions where I've had that to share in people's rooms. And I wanted to take a moment to thank you specifically for that song. Because, you know, the line especially about sometimes you let us get broken down, busted and bruised, you know, from the inside out so you can make us whole again. It just, it speaks so much to people when they're in the hospital, I think. And it's It's just been a real help. So as we begin today, thank you, because there's times that you are— your music is with me and my patients even when you don't know it. But it's— I'm very grateful to have songs to share like that.

That's amazing. Thank you for bringing me into those holy spaces with you. Thank you. That really means a lot, you know. Suffering, uh, is, is holy ground, isn't it?

You know?

Yeah. And, um, being able to meet with people in that place, that's, that's really— yeah, it's, it's very special. So thank you for bringing me in there with you.

Well, thanks, thanks for coming along, whether you knew it or not. We appreciate it. So, well, I want to talk to you today, um, a little bit about some of the touring that you've been doing. I know it's, I know it's not just been this year, that in the past you have done some of these tours without a band and have been sharing songs and stories, and you decided that it was, it was worth doing that again this year. And so it's not only taking you to some of the bigger venues, but even things like house shows and church venues and places like that. I wonder if you might be able to share just some of the highlights or some of the memorable moments of sharing in a setting like that?

Yeah, well, you know, some of it was, was born out of necessity. I should also explain for people hearing this, I do have a speech handicap. So it's not because Rick's making me nervous. But I, you know, with the advent of of COVID it was pretty hard to, um, to stay alive as an artist, you know, um, unless I was able to adapt and play smaller places or outside places, you know, um, backyards and stuff. And, and that just ended up being one of the most life-giving seasons of, of, uh, of doing music with people, um, that I've ever experienced, you know. So it's like, well, I want to keep doing this, but, but, but how do we, um, how do we expand the boundaries of that? How do we keep it interesting? And, and, and what else could we do with this, you know? And so, uh, I did launch a new mode of touring at the beginning of the year where I, you know, I just, uh, posted on my social media that if anybody— if anyone was interested in bringing me in for like a, a more intimate style concert in a smaller room or even a living room or something like that, or a church, you know, as well, um let's do that and let's wonder about doing an evening centered around a certain theme. I thought that could be interesting, you know. I think, I think music has, has healing properties to it, you know, um, and, uh, I think music is very therapeutic, you know, uh, there's, um the movie Shadowlands about C.S. Lewis. And, uh, in that movie he says we read books to know we're not alone. Um, I think that's why we listen to music too, so that we can have those me too moments, like, oh, oh yeah, I've, I've felt that way also, you know. Um, so how could we be very purposeful, um, with a night of music. And that can be— and that can be tricky too, you know, because, um, I think for the last 100 years or so, or who knows how long, um, we go to— we, um, we typically go to concerts expecting to be entertained and to hear the song that we know. And I, I totally get that. Like, if I'd gone to a Tom Petty concert and he didn't play I Won't Back Down, I would have been pretty bummed, you know. So, um, so how can I deliver the songs that people are, are hoping and expecting to hear, but then also creating an evening that's centered around a theme, you know? Like, I've, I've released 150 songs now that are out, out there, and I Wow. Probably have 100 more that I haven't released yet, you know. And out of all those songs, how do I create an evening centered around the themes of, of, of either transformation or hope or healing— those were the three that we offered, you know, um, and, uh, and have a musical conversation with an audience about that. I'm still learning how to do it. I've actually only done 2 of those now. Oh, uh, and, uh, I'm learning as I go. But I did one this weekend and it was about healing, and, uh, man, it, it went to a really deep, vulnerable place, you know, and it was, it was quite beautiful. I learned a lot from doing that one. And hopefully by the time I'm with you, I'll have it all figured out. But so far so good. It's been meaningful. So I think sometimes I suspect that we've come to expect too little of music. Well, um, a lot of the big hit songs are kind of skimming along this surface of life, and, and I understand that there are reasons for that, you know, and I, I don't have contempt for that. But I think that once you experience what, what a song can do in you, like the dots that it can connect inside of you, the way that God can speak through it, you know Um, I think once you experience that, you just become less satisfied with a song because it's catchy or, you know, or clever or something like that, you know. Yeah, there's, there's healing power in it, you know.

So for sure. Well, I appreciate that. And, you know, you said a few moments ago that maybe you'll have it figured out by the time, uh, you, you get to where we're going to be together and Part of me feels like, well, you know what, it's okay if it's different every night though too, because there's something about, especially when you have the freedom of being without a band and you can—

Yes.

—hear a little more without kind of some of the constraints that come with that. As great as it is to play with— Yeah. —there are moments where you can maybe gauge the audience a little bit better too. And I almost feel like when I play at places, there is a, there's a journey that we both go on together, both the listener who, who is making a, giving us a very beautiful gift by even listening, you know, in the first place. But then the reaction that they'll have, it does kind of tell us something about maybe where we can go next, where this is connecting, and something here is really hitting a place of meaning and purpose and value. So, so I think it's a pretty amazing thing for you just to kind of have that opportunity and give that opportunity both. It really goes both ways when it comes to sharing that in live settings. And I wanted to highlight too, one of my very favorite songs, which you had talked about this weekend, feeling like you went to a real deep place. And I don't know if this song was one of the songs you shared. But the song Worth Staying For has been one that's kind of been on a loop with me, and partially because parts of it that feel like my own story, too, you know. And I think when I play it for other people— in fact, one of my best friends, I shared it with recently, and also had a father who was not present. And he said, I'm gonna have to stop listening to this right now. He said, and then he texts back later, and he said, I'm going to listen to this again and again this week, but I needed a minute, you know. It was sort of the thing that, um, was really connecting. And that's what I find is, is so powerful about songs like that. So I'd love to hear you, if you, if you don't mind, I'd love to hear you share a little bit about that song. And I think you co-wrote it with Andy Gjallarhorn, who is one of my favorite writers as well, and artists. But I just love to hear whatever you'd like to tell us about that song. I know it's a very personal song. It can be very It's very brave of you to share some of the details. So, so just tell us a little bit about Worth Staying For and where that came from.

Yeah, I think we started to write it. It was either 2015 or 2016. I think it was 2015. We started to write it, you know, and he's, he's, he's the one of my favorite songwriters as well. And I'm very blessed that I get to work with him. And he's, um, he's a trusted friend who knows how to hold those parts of my life really well. So I usually go to him for, uh, these these most personal songs, you know, um, especially, especially the really painful ones, because it, like, it, it can be hard to have objectivity, you know. It's, it's, it's helpful to have another person in the room when I'm diving into all that, you know. And he's great. Um, we wrote the first two verses way back then And then we were just really hung up, and, and, and, uh, anything I tried to write after that, it just didn't seem right, or it came too easy, you know. So if people haven't heard the song, um, the first verse goes into, uh, my wound of abandonment from, uh, not growing up with my dad in my life. Um, and then verse 2 explores how that wound was reopened during my divorce. Um, and all that's really tricky because I don't want to demonize either my dad or my ex-wife, you know, and they've got their own wounds that, that, that, that, uh that contributed to that story. And in the case with my ex-wife, you know, like, I, I made my own contributions to, um, our marriage not working. So it wasn't an intent to demonize them or to, to, um, or to be pitied. And I think, I think that was the hard part, like, it's going into my pain. And so Okay. When I was— so I got to do an event with one of my favorite authors, Walter Wongarin Jr. And if people haven't heard of him, you should look up the book Ragman. Ragman by Walter Wongarin Jr. It's beautiful. Anyway, I love I love him, loved his work. And, uh, at the event we did with each other, I raised my hand and I asked a question. Like, you know, I, uh, I asked him, um, well, I don't know if I really asked a question. I think I was just airing a grievance about how it seems like in, in Christian culture, the only testimonies we hear are when people have overcome and the struggle is already behind them, right? I went through this thing, but here's how I overcame, and, and here's my testimony about it. And I, I had a little contempt for that, uh, thinking that, you know, how come we can't hear testimonies from in the midst of the struggle itself? Why do we have to wait until everything's all wrapped up, you know. Um, and I think I brought that up imagining that, that he, he would be my ally in that thought, you know. And, uh, and he, he brought a counter perspective that was so wise and so beautiful. He said, well, the thing is, is if you bring up a struggle while you're in the midst of it you don't realize it, but you will be asking your audience for something. They will experience that as an ask, either an ask for support or an ask for empathy or for understanding, you know. And I was asking him about this because I was in the midst of my divorce and it was painful. And I had a sense that I I shouldn't talk about it from the stage. And I was mistakenly interpreting that as that, oh yeah, I feel like I shouldn't talk about it from the stage because I know this isn't what Christians do, and I won't be able to talk about it until I can bring a victory story, you know. But I don't think that was actually what was going on in hindsight now. I think it was actually the Holy Spirit saying, nope, it's not time. To share this yet. Um, and Walt helped me to understand why, because our job as an artist is to give to our audience, to bring something, to bring nourishment of some sort to our audience. And if I would have shared— if we share about our struggles while we're in the middle of it, we're not bringing something. And we don't realize it, but the audience experiences it as an ask, and then they have to give me, to give me understanding or support or sympathy. But if you wait until the chapter closes, right, then all of a sudden you have— you can still bring the pain and the story, but now you have something to offer. Like, here's, here's how I survived it, here's how I overcame it, here's how I experienced the grace of God, you know, here's here's how God met me in it. And that was just a beautiful, very helpful understanding of, of what's going on in the, uh, artist's slash minister's relationship with, with the audience, you know. Um, so verse 1 and verse 2 are, are very much about my pain, my core wound of rejection and abandonment. And very clearly like, oh, I'm going to play this for people and people are going to feel sorry for me. And it's going to draw something from my audience. And that's not exactly what I want. Although I do know sharing openly and honestly about our pain often does give something to the audience too. It gives them the freedom to experience their own, you know. Um, so, so I knew there was a potential gift in it. Okay, but where do we go from here, you know? And, you know, uh, um, I remember one of the earliest ideas was somewhere in the song I need to take ownership that I have also left people. Um, and then in the third verse, it could be about how, uh, but you know, all of us, the, the, the, the, the leavers and the left behind, we come to Jesus and he takes all of that brokenness and he takes it to the cross and he takes it all the way to death. And he's on the cross saying, you are worth me staying here for, you know. And I think that idea could have worked as a song, but it— but there's something about that that feels a little bit like a Christian cliché, you know. Um, I don't think anyone would have been surprised that the song went there, and then all it all of a sudden becomes like, like theological and conceptual So is there a way that in the third verse it could even get more personal? And I had actually had, um, uh, this experience of, um, of this night where, okay, so I'll say that, you know, after my divorce, as, uh, as I ventured into having relationships again, um, I would— I'd start to move in a direction with a person, and then all of a sudden it'd feel like my ankles were broken or something like that. Like, just something was broken in me, and I was scared. And, you know, so I've done some breaking up with people, which means that I have probably made them feel abandoned, you know. And this, uh, this experience of knowing that my core wound is rejection, and that also that I gave that wound to others, was a, a deep source of, uh, of shame in me. And, and the pain of, of all of it felt overwhelming. To the point where just one night I was so overwhelmed with all of that that I, I, uh, I barely made it out of that night alive. Um, and it became clear that, oh, I think that's— I think that's the third verse of the song, you know. I, I think that's the, the very real human honest place it could go to, you know. And, and, well, and, and I, I realized that, you know, a while after I had recovered from that awful night and stuff, you know. So that's, um, so that's where, where it went. And it seemed like the, the most meaningful thing I could do, uh, after those first two verses was to own that, uh, that, you know, our pain, if it doesn't get transformed, we will transmit it. And if I'm going to talk that deeply about the wounds I've received from others, I need to equally talk about the ways that I've wounded as well. And I need to take responsibility and all that, you know. So, so, so yeah, that's a long answer, but hopefully that's helpful. It's a very complex song, you know. Yeah. And I think a lot of people will, will mostly resonate with the first two verses that they've experienced a parent who was gone or went through a divorce. But the song takes a, a sharp left turn in the bridge, you know, and, uh It took, it took me 8 years to, to be able to write that, the back half of this, I guess, you know. So yeah.

Well, I can tell you, I understand that having been a person who has gone through a divorce myself, and very much while I was minister at a church, same church I'm at now, you know, and it's been so many years now that it seems like another person almost, but I remember that same thing. And I remember so much of what you were saying right now, it's just like, yeah, I, I remember that place. I remember, uh, lying on the hallway in my apartment by myself and just, you know, just— I, I— those, those memories and moments of being truly alone and feeling like you failed. And, um, and, and for me, um, I mean, this isn't about me, so I won't go on and on, but, but just as you were talking though, um, It's a very familiar feeling to me. And I appreciate that you're sharing that with audiences from the places that you are now, because I know exactly what that's like to like, like, how much do I say? When do I need to say it? Right? I can't, I can't not say anything, because here I am at this congregation of people in churches, you know, and it's, it's just such a hard thing. But I also found it interesting. You also said a few moments ago, you referred to the movie Shadowlands and suffering. And one of my classes in grad school this semester I'm in is called The Theologies of Suffering, and our assignment this week was to watch Shadowlands. Um, which— yeah, so I, I had seen parts of it in the past, and I, I had read A Grief Observed, and I'd read so much of C.S. Lewis, but I'd never had a chance to see the movie in its entirety until right now. Uh, so it's very fresh in my mind as you, as you were mentioning it, just some of those scenes. And, um, One part that stood out to me, just thinking about that film for a moment, is at the— towards the end of the movie when C.S. Lewis and who would be his, I guess, stepson now in the movie because his mother had passed away. Yes. Life. There's such a poignant scene of the two of them sitting together, the boy on his lap, and then just both crying just uncontrollably, you know. And it really, it does pull your heart. And anybody who has experienced that kind of grief and, and suffering. They, they understand that. Um, and just all of this together, through things I'm studying, through things I'm hearing you saying right now, I am, I am so grateful that God, uh, like the same God who wrestled Jacob, that God walks with a limp with us, you know, that God is the one who even in his resurrected form comes back with wounds on his hands, you know. And there is such hope in for all of us who are wounded and broken and have broken relationships in the past and, uh, and things maybe even in the moment right now that we're struggling with and going through. I'm just so grateful for that kind of God who doesn't stay far away and who not only comes near but gets broken with us, which is— wow, you know, when I think about that. So to me, that song, when I hear it, is your way of reminding us that there is a God who is still limping along with us, you know, reminding us that we're worth staying for. And I just, I'm grateful for it. So thank you for all that you just shared a moment.

It was absolutely— yeah, thanks for asking about all that. It's occurring to me now too, Shadowlands, of course, Anthony Hopkins plays C.S. Lewis, and he's a great actor to play C.S. Lewis. Yes. It was amazing. But, uh, there's a brand new movie out right now, um, that is a conversation between Sigmund Freud and C.S. Lewis, and I, I can't wait to watch it. And Anthony Hopkins plays Sigmund Freud in that one. So like, it's interesting that he kind of played, you know, uh, both characters in his lifetime and, and, and it makes me want to see the new movie even more. Like, I'm like, it'd be interesting. Yeah, that, that was able to bring to bear upon that character having already inhabited C.S. Lewis, you know.

So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember hearing about that now. So that's what I wanted to look up to. And one of these days I'll have time to watch movies and read things I want to read again once grad school is over. It's my last full-time semester. I know, right?

Yeah, yeah. I'm working on a book right now and it's like, I don't have time for anything else. I'm just always working hours and stuff. So yeah, I've gained, I've gained 20 pounds because I was like, I got to make this deadline. Something's got to give. I'm not going to be able to work out as much. I don't know if that was a great idea, but— Oh no.

Well, it doesn't show. You look good on our Instagram. Well, hey, you know what? What? We shouldn't leave it in a kind of a semi-sad, somber state as we've been talking about these songs today, because, because your album actually has so many moments of joy and even humor too. And I always find that moments of comedy and tragedy are very closely related. And I love another song on your album too. I've shared this with a few people, Jesus Loves You and I'm Trying. And To me, it's poignant, but it's also very funny. And the way you describe getting ready to reply to that one person who always has something negative to say on a post that you write. So I don't want to leave people with the impression that like the album is all just, you know, going to be really hard. And because it's actually—

I think it's actually a pretty, pretty up— it is celebratory album. Overall. And then worth staying for, like, is the little bomb I dropped in the middle of the album.

Yeah, yeah, because it really starts out with— I mean, with Yes Lord at the beginning, When I Say Yes. I mean, that's just all, all, uh, like, it feels like, like, get the choir together and start singing, man, because it's, it's just such a fun, really good, rich song. And, uh, so I just wanted to, to remind people that, hey, listen to the album too if you haven't yet, because it really will lift you up in, in, in a great way. So, um, well, man, we've been talking for a while already. I can't believe how much time has gone by. I wonder if there's anything that right now is just, uh, really exciting to you. I know you mentioned you have a book that you're working on, which that's, that's a ton of work in itself, but is there anything that, that you wanted to make sure we, we touched on today while we had this conversation that you would love for people to know about? Or maybe even just something that's on your heart and mind that you feel like, hey, I want to share this today? Love to give you the chance to do that.

Oh, I can't think of anything specific. I will say that, you know, yeah, okay, here's an idea. I've always felt like I was supposed to write a book at some point in my life. And so I started during COVID I actually started working on a memoir. First and then got about two-thirds of the way through that and just had a sense, kind of like worth staying for, like, okay, I got it to here and now I think I need to live some life a little bit and, and, or, or, or, uh, allow myself to metabolize what I've written so far so I know how to write the last third of the book. So while I hit pause on the memoir, I started working on this other book, which is a song of— excuse me, a book of devotional essays for each of my songs I've ever released. You know, I'm, I'm almost done with that one. But, um, when I started working on the memoir and I bought these books about how to write a memoir Memoirs for Dummies, you know, all that kind of stuff. And, and, uh, and learned like that there's this idea out there that maybe everybody should write a memoir because it's something that you can leave for your family members. I'm like, oh yeah, shoot, I wish, I wish my grandparents had done that. I would have, I would have liked to have read their story, you know. And, um, writing down my stories, like, like the act of carving out just a little bit of time, you know, like half hour a day, maybe, maybe a little less sometimes, and just sitting there and actively remembering, like allowing memories to come up. And I've just experienced how the Holy Spirit will bring up a memory. I was like, oh man, I forgot all about that. Like, I I, I can't believe I'm remembering that, and, and why are you bringing that to my mind, Holy Spirit, you know? And there's usually some, some profound healing truth in there that I needed to reflect on. Um, and writing, I will say, has also really clarified a lot of my thought. It's revealed a lot of leaps in my logic and a lot of blind spots. It's very humbling. And as I've been working on, I thought, man, I think everybody should do this. And so I can't recommend it enough, like, like, like sitting down and writing a little memoir that maybe only your grandkids would read. Maybe it's only 50 pages long or or less or a little bit more, something like that. But, but, but the active— I suppose journaling is a version of that, you know, but, but, uh, but actively sitting down, it's, it's, it's a form of— it's a form of prayer, right? Sit down and write out your thoughts, your story, that conversation that you're constantly having with the Holy Spirit, you know, and, and to and make that explicit in a written form has been very, very healthy for me. So anyone hearing this, you know, pray about that. And, and, and, and you may be like, oh bro, I, I do not have time. Um, I remember, uh, seeing that Rob Bell, who I know is controversial and stuff like that, but I, I like his style of writing, you know? Mm-hmm. And he was gonna have an online seminar about, about hook writing. So I, I signed up for that and it was great. And he talked about, you know, like if you're, if you're really committed to this, it means you'll write a sentence or two when you have that, that 5 minutes after breakfast before you have to leave for work. And that really shifted the whole process for me, you know. So, uh, I, uh, I flew back to Nashville from being on the road this weekend, and an Uber driver picked me up and brought me home. And in that 20-minute drive, I worked on my book, you know. So, uh, when I was waiting for my bags at the baggage claim, I sat down wrote 2 or 3 sentences, you know. So, uh, I say all that, uh, to remove, um, to help remove any, um, arguments in a person's mind about, I don't have time. Well, really, if you just, you know, knock out a sentence at a time when you have a minute or two here and there, you know, in between Archer blocks of time, you can do it. So anyway, I don't know if that's helpful to anybody, but that's been— writing has been a very rich version of prayer and conversation with the Lord. Yeah, for me, that has deepened me.

So yeah, yeah, no, I totally get that. And I wonder if part of it is too, because it does require you to just stop, slow down, and really start to contemplate and think, you know. I remember You know, I run this Twitter account called @MrRogersSay or X, whatever we're calling it. But I just do Mr. Rogers quotes every day. And so I have all this Mr. Rogers knowledge floating around in my head. And when you were talking about that, it reminded me of one of my favorite quotes of his. He was on a television show being interviewed and he actually asks the host who's interviewing him, he is saying, do you get enough quiet? And, you know, and he's asking it and bringing it to a very quiet moment on the show. And he says, you know, the world is such a noisy place, you know, and it's so important. And he just expressed how important the quiet was for him. And as I thought about that, and the way that he even operated that television show that for children, it was interesting how much quiet played into that, which if you think of children's shows today, it's, you know, it's all lights and loud and very noisy. But he had, you know, the exact opposite tact. And he almost made you feel like, in doing that, that he was listening to you, you know, in some way through the television. So all that is back to you talking about the importance of sitting down to write. I think there is something very poignant about just taking that time in quiet to sit and to hear and listen. To, for one thing, listen to what God might say, but also to listen to yourself and see what things you're going through, the emotions you're going through, your thoughts and feelings and attitudes and and just where you are. So thank you for sharing that with our audience because I agree. I think it's very good practice for anyone who hasn't done even just journaling sometimes. So it's good stuff.

So yeah, I think the block for me for journaling was, oh, like it's a waste of time, you know, but like memoir writing for me No, I'd like— okay, I'll say I don't think that journaling is a waste of time. I think it's very valuable. But the idea of writing a document that I would leave behind for somebody, I think I needed that, that, that purposefulness to add urgency to it, you know, like, like, oh yeah, yeah, okay, this is something I want to leave. You know, so be behind.

But it's kind of like when you know the date is coming when you have to record some songs. I'd better write some songs. Totally, totally.

Exactly. Deadlines are our friend, right?

Deadlines help me for sure. Well, Jason, this has just been a real pleasure. Thank you for taking a few moments out of your very busy schedule to share from your heart today and to talk about not only these cool, um, places that you're stopping at on your current tour, but about your songs, about your life. And I'm just— I'm very grateful grateful that you would make that bow to us today and spend some time with us here on Voices in My Head. We're really excited to see you in March here in Springfield, Ohio, and we're just gonna— gonna give you a hero's welcome when you arrive. So we're going to be glad to have you here with us. So, all right, well, for everybody listening today, we're going to have links— should the technology work the way it's supposed to— we're going to have links in the show notes today where you can go and find more about Jason, all of his music and, and everything that he has going on right now. And you'll be able to find tour stops along the way. And for those of you that might be listening from Springfield, Ohio, we are actually offering the tickets to his concert for free. You can go to homeroadnaz.org, but they are limited because we have limited seating. So I think we're limiting to about 300 people for that night. So it's going to be a fun evening and we want to have you there. But you might want to get your tickets because the last I heard, there's about 50 left. So Uh, so thank you all for listening to Voices in My Head. And as I say to my guests every week, I'm going to say it to you, Jason Gray. Thank you for being one of the voices in my head this week.

Thank you, Rick.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. Music on the intro and outro of this show is from my single As I Walk These Halls. Which can be streamed on any streaming platform, including Spotify. I hope you'll visit me on my website at RickLeeJames.com where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, schedule me for a concert, a speaking engagement, a podcast, or even a book signing in your neighborhood. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes, wherever you listen to podcasts. The more positive reviews we receive, the more visible this podcast will be. And now the benediction: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope.