Jenn Chenoweth - Episode 597 - Voices in my Head (the Rick Lee James Podcast)

Well, welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I am your host, Rick Lee James, and I'm so grateful for all of you who are here today. I was supposed to have music playing right now, but something went wrong with my recording, so just one moment. There it is. Hey, well, welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I'm your host, Rick Lee James. I'm so glad for all of you who are listening today. I want to say welcome back. We're glad to have you here. This is going to be a great conversation today. My guest today is a wonderful artist, Jen Chenoweth. She's a singer-songwriter whose new EP, Out to Get Me, was recently released. And this project is both deeply personal and profoundly spiritual. It's born out of her own struggles with anxiety, depression, and even a medical condition that threatened her ability to sing. But what makes Jen's story so moving is how she reframed her understanding of God, from seeing him as a taskmaster who was out to get her, as one of the songs says, to discovering him as a shepherd who pursues with love and sets us free. Her songs, blending worship, synth-pop, and intimate ballads, invite us into that journey of surrender, healing, and identity in Christ. Jen, it is a great joy to welcome you to Voices in My Head today. Thanks for being here.

Thank you for having me. That was a beautiful intro, so well put. Thank you.

Oh, well, thank you so much. Well, I'm really glad to have a chance to talk with a fellow preacher's kid tonight.

I'm sure, yes, we have a lot to talk about.

We probably could just share stories about that all night long. Yeah, but, but at the same time, we've, we've got so much, uh, to cover in, in, uh, the short time that we have together this evening. And I, I wonder if you could just share a little bit about yourself for people that maybe had not had a chance to hear your music yet, and, and give us just a, a quick introduction to who Jen Chenoweth is tonight.

Yeah, so I'm Jen. I live in the South Florida area. I've been in Florida my entire life and born into a ministry family. My father is a preacher, both my grandfathers are preachers, um, so many musicians in my family, worship leaders, worship pastors, um, so So all through my life, I was surrounded by ministry. There was no place I felt more comfortable than in a church. That was where I was. Usually the last people out the door, the first people to get there, which, you know, as a pastor's kid.

Yeah.

And yeah, grew up in church and just really loved the Lord, had genuine experiences with Him, started leading worship at 9 years old, got saved when I was 7. So from a very young age, I just felt like, this is awesome. Like, I know a God who loves me. And I just continued to lead worship, grow. A lot of great mentors in my life helped train me, and not just, uh, musically but also spiritually. And then grew up, went to college at Southeastern, uh, worked and wrote with, um, SEU Worship for my years there and just had an incredible time and had a major health scare, which I'm sure we'll talk about. And shortly after coming out of the darkest season of my life, I reconnected with one of my worship directors from Southeastern, Seth Reddy. Him and his wife, Nerva, are artists, Seth and Nerva, and they really took me under their wing. And we planned out this project, and I got to write with some incredible writers, tell them my story, and an incredible project was birthed out of that. So Yeah, God's just been working on my behalf and helping me through some really difficult times in my life, so I'm hoping to help others with that.

Well, great. Well, I, I'd say that you're, you're doing just that, and I've been enjoying the music as I've been hearing it. And, um, I'd love to, before we get into talk about your injury, or, or who knows what direction we might take in the next few moments as we get going here, but I, I love the, the title Out to Get Me, and it really, it really flips like this common fear that a lot of us, I think, have into a statement about God's loving pursuit for us. Instead of thinking of out to get me being a bad thing necessarily, it's really more about God really out to get us in a beautiful, loving way. And I love that. I wonder if we could talk for just a moment about— because I know your background growing up in the church, we probably have in some ways some similar stories like that. But it is interesting to me. I, I don't feel like probably any of our parents who, when we grew up as pastors' kids, ever meant to put this kind of fear into our lives about God. Probably just the opposite. But I do feel like that oftentimes we pick up somewhere, for whatever reason, this fear— not that God is loving and that God wants this genuine intimate relationship with, with us in a beautiful way— but sometimes we have this fearful image of a God who's waiting to strike us out of the Book of Life at the first wrong thing that we do. Um, I wonder if you could just talk maybe a little bit about your perspective on that. I'm, I'm guessing you probably didn't really get that teaching probably from being in the, the church, but somehow it must have come through at some point for you to come up with a song about this, you know, of the way the fear of the Lord in a different way. I'd love to just hear your perspective on that.

Yeah, absolutely. I don't think the fear was intentional in the way that I was taught. I definitely grew up in the hellfire and brimstone, um, focused, uh, time of the Pentecostal church, and, um, that was what I heard a lot. I heard a lot about sin. I heard a lot about darkness. I heard a lot about hell. And I don't think anyone was intentionally trying to scare me. I think it was just more the times also is like, yes, there was a lot of truth in the message, but it was an incomplete message for me because most of the time it left me with only fear and not the entire picture of God. And so I think a heavy dosage of that can make you a fearful person, especially if you already have a certain kind of temperament and personality. And I think I just had that type of personality where if there was too much fear. I was extremely sensitive to everything growing up, sensitive to sounds, sensitive to things on TV. I was just— I couldn't handle much. And I noticed that from a young age, but I didn't know how to verbalize that. And so I think with everything, I just never wanted to step on anyone's toes. I never wanted to do anything wrong. I wanted to be the best girl that I could be. You know, for the Lord. But I think sometimes when we're just trying to follow the rules, we can't really find who we are because we're just so stuck in just trying to do everything right that a genuine relationship doesn't form the way that it should. And so that's why Out to Get Me was so significant, because I think as you get older, those fears— everything starts to kind of, um, shift and change. And as I got older, that fear manifested in different ways. And even though my my lens was becoming more clear about who God really was, the full picture of Him, I was still struggling with that core fear that if I messed up or I got out of line, God was upset with me and I had to make it up to Him and I had to do all of these things to get back in His good graces. And it was just coming from a fear-based understanding of Him and who He was. And one thing I haven't mentioned much but had a lot to do with this project as well is it wasn't just thinking God was out to get me. It was also thinking people were out to get me and being very suspicious of others and, and wondering if they were going to hurt me or if they were going to— if I was going to disappoint them and they would be upset. So it was all throughout my relationships, and I projected that onto God and to people. So that was kind of how it came about.

Wow. Well, that's fascinating. I appreciate you sharing that tonight. And I, I have to wonder then Getting back to your injury, um, was this injury before or after, uh, in the process of you kind of having this transformative, uh, kind of paradigm shift as far as seeing God is out to get you in one way to another? Or did you see your injury as sort of like, oh no, God is punishing me for something at that time? Or I, I'd just be curious if you could share, if you don't mind, about that and then just kind of how that affected your view of God.

Right. So my health issue is TMJ disorder. It's basically those two joints that connect to your jaw, your temporomandibular joint. And mine wasn't working properly and it locked on me. This was in the end of— or no, the beginning of 2019. And now, of course, we're in 2025. So a lot has happened since then. I think it was more— there were things that I kind of— I think we all do this a little bit, is we put put some issues aside that we should probably be dealing with. But because life is moving and we're busy and ministry is happening and life is happening and friendship and marriage and all the things, we kind of put aside some things. We're willing to, to not think about it for a while. And so I knew I had a fear-based understanding of God, but I also knew that that fear-based understanding was not complete, and I didn't have the full picture of who God was. But I just wasn't in a place to fully deal with unpacking all the errors inside my theology. And so when my health problem came, it came with a lot of other things because I had dealt with very low self-esteem my whole life as well. So now all of a sudden singing, which I love to do, I couldn't do that anymore, at least for a time. And it was pain. I was in chronic pain every day. And I went to God's word every day and I read Psalm 23 over my life and over myself. And was just so convicted, just asking God like, Lord, forgive me for just, you know, focusing so much on ministry and giving and pouring out and not filling up my soul the way that I need to, because I was running on fumes at this point, and I was burned out, and I was tired and dealing with this major health problem. So it caused me to be in a place where I was home a lot. COVID was happening at the same time. Um, we found out my mom had breast cancer. It was just It was such a hard season. And in that time, it was as if the Lord put it right in front of me, like, "All right, we're going to deal with this now. We're going to deal with how you're looking at me. We're going to deal with how you're looking at people and how you're looking at yourself." It was like— I don't even know how to explain it. It was divine, and just in the sense that I had to go to God with my questions, and I was begging him for answers. I really was. And so, you know, things have improved a lot. My mom's cancer-free. A lot of things we've come out out of. But I think deeper than any health problem, God wanted to fix more than my jaw.

So, well, I'm certainly glad that you were able to get your ability to sing back again. You have a beautiful voice, and I, I thank you. Can't imagine what that must have been like, uh, where, where you just couldn't even sing. I'm certainly— because of the pain, I'm, I'm guessing, and just what it does to your jaw. So I'm grateful that God carried you through that very difficult season. I think we're going to be unpacking for a long time too exactly what it meant for us to go through the pandemic. And, you know, all of us kind of experienced something together that it almost seems like now we've forgotten about and nobody wants to talk about it. But I do. I'm actually a hospital chaplain full-time in my day job. And I've been doing that for just a few years now. Music kind of became my second love after I started doing chaplaincy. So I don't travel as much as I once did. But, but I'm seeing me. Oh, thank you. It's amazing work. I love it. I just feel so blessed to get to do it. But that's one thing I hear from a lot of people is I think that they haven't— many people haven't quite dealt with what that meant for them, you know, and going through this time, we're not very good in this country, maybe anywhere, of dealing with grief and dealing with loss. And so when I, when I hear your story and the experiences that you are sharing through music and the way you're sharing with your story, I'm grateful that you're putting some of those losses in that, not just the end of the story, but you're allowing us to kind of walk through some of that loss with you in the midst of what you were experiencing. And I couldn't help but notice Psalm 23., coming up quite a bit throughout the music and songs like Light as a Feather, Good Shepherd. You know, I think of things like that. And you had talked about just now the way that Psalm 23 really became very important to you, um, in all of that. Uh, were there any other scriptures that as you were writing this song you really felt impressed to sort of include or sort of wrap the music around as you were writing the songs and preparing for this?

Yeah, um, Psalm 23 was huge. Um, it impacted so much of the writing. And Galatians 5 was another one. Those were the two— there were many verses, but those were the main two that really, um, were driving this album. And Galatians 5, you know, it talks about how we were running our race so well who cut us off from the truth. And it tells us that it wasn't God that cut us off because God is the one that called us to freedom. And so in all, a lot of the songs in the album, especially Truth Comes Running, Remembering, and some of the other ones on there, you'll hear those themes from Galatians 5 in finding that freedom in Christ and knowing that God isn't the one that cut you off. I think sometimes when we're struggling, with how we see God, there's a temptation to blame God. God, why can't I see you correctly? Why, why am I going through this pain? Why am I going through this suffering? And his word tells us it wasn't him that cut us off. Maybe, maybe a bad theology cut us off. Maybe someone else gave us some bad ideas, or we deceived ourselves, but God didn't cut us off. You know, maybe culture has influenced us and we've been watching too much of the news, or or whatever the case, we've been filling ourselves with something. Um, but God's not out to get you. He's— he wants to set you free. He's called you to freedom. And so that's why Galatians 5 also played a very big role, um, in the writing for this album.

Yeah, the, the, the freedom passage, we could call it, I guess. Freedom in Christ and in Galatians 5, which, uh, there's so much good. And then how it even ends with Life by the Spirit. And I'm just looking through it again as we're talking tonight, and ends with the fruit of the Spirit, you know, the love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, all the things that, uh, we're offered. I think not as something we strive for, but something that is a gift God provides to us as we follow and live life in the Spirit, which is beautiful. So thank you for, for diving into those passages. And I, I think some of the best songs that I hear are the ones that are written from those life moments and finding ways to interact with scripture in such ways. So thank you for doing that again. Uh, you know, there, there's a song I, I wonder if you could also talk about, uh, again, I wish I could play it, uh, today. As I was sharing with you before, I should let the audience know the reason I haven't been playing artists' music as much when they come on the show is because there's things that AI catches if it's not my music, and it puts the podcast on hold, and I have to file copyright disputes and all kinds of things. So instead of playing the song tonight, I wonder if we could talk about this beautiful song called Closest Friend. And it's a collaboration with, uh, Claire— I believe his name's Clarence Monstein. Okay, I apologize if I— no, no, no, mispronouncing it. I'm not always the best at getting names pronounced correctly. Um, but to me, that song, it just really feels like this, this, this intimate prayer to God. And what, what was the whole collaboration process like for you with Clarence?

Yeah, uh, Closest Friend was a unique writing experience because all the other writers on this album, with the exception of my producer and his wife, I had just met them in the process of planning for this album. But Closest Friend was written with, ironically, two of my closest friends, Clarence Monastime and his wife Tati. And we have sung together. They've seen me through. They actually saw me through that really dark time that I went through. So there's also even deeper significance there. I knew that I wanted to involve them in the writing and then possibly even feature Clarence because We met in 2000, I think it was 2016, and we were singing together at a church. And we were at a sound check, and he was on one end and I was on the other. And I heard him do his sound check, and I'm like, "Who is that?" And then when I sound checked, he asked the same question. And so we formed a friendship, and me and my husband and him and his wife, we've just been good friends. One day I was just like, hey, you know, I'd love to write a song with you guys. I'm working on songs for the album. And we had a pile of songs, not all of them got used. So I told them like, I don't know what's gonna end up on the album, but I'd love to write one with you guys and see what happens, you know. So they were like, absolutely, come over. And I had the chorus. That's all I had. You're my closest friend. I long to sit and talk with you. That's pretty much all I had, that little melody line, and that part didn't change. And I showed them that, and from then it just took off. And I knew it would because we had been doing ministry and singing together, and I had sang for his project, and we knew how to work together really well. And so we just spent, I would say, 3.5 hours after eating dinner together and talking about life, just talking about God as our closest friend. And if God is our closest friend, that's why those verses are so intimate and honest. Because when someone's your closest friend, you feel that peace to be able to talk to them that way. So the first verse, you know, "I feel the distance and I feel like you're not around," and asking all of those questions with God and going, "I know you're with me, but I'm not feeling you right now," and all the things as humans that we struggle with when it comes to connecting with God is sometimes we feel distant from him, sometimes we feel closer than ever, but finding the peace in knowing God is your closest friend. And then as we were writing, it just didn't feel like enough to encompass all God was. So in the bridge, we decided to talk about everything that God is and, and zoom out more and then come back to that intimate thought of him being, um your closest friend. And when I reach my end, he keeps giving me chances. And he's still there for me. And he'll never let go of me. And it was just a beautiful time. And I think it was who I was writing with, too, was also significant for that kind of song. And then the feature, it was awesome. And when I showed my producer, the song, I didn't know that he would— what he would think of it. And he was like, I absolutely love it. I think you should have this one on the album. And That song actually was probably the hardest to put together, uh, ultimately, instrumentally and in the studio. So it was a labor of love.

Well, I'm glad it came out. And I tell you what I really like about it, and you already quoted the lyrics to the first verse, but I love the honest confession of, I feel the distance, I feel like you're not around. You know, which we are so often struggling with this, this strange paradox sometimes of we have this feeling of we love God so much, so deeply, and at the same time are doubting God's existence. Like, we just have this. Yeah, it's amazing. And I try to remind patients who are in the hospital, I often refer to the great Fred Rogers of Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood, who used to say, anything that's human is mentionable, and anything that's mentionable can become more manageable. And I think that is so especially important in our spiritual lives when we talk about things of God, because it's a very human thing to, to be able to feel two different things at the same time, to feel like you love God so much, and then maybe at the same time to feel so mad at God, or to feel God's absence. You know, there's just a number of emotions And that's honestly the way we are with other humans too. I mean, we can feel very much like we love them and be very frustrated with them at the same time. Um, yeah, and I love the way that you're helping us to just simply acknowledge some of the honest realities of the way that we feel at times. So I applaud you for that in your writing, and I hope you'll continue to dive deeper into that in the future as you continue to write. I just think there is such a, a a rich untapped well of songs like that that help us to truly be honest. And, and what does God desire most but truth in our inward being, you know, as we, as we come forward?

Absolutely.

Yeah. So, so I just wanted to thank you tonight for that particular song. I, I really feel like it's a treasure on the album, and, and it makes so much sense to me that it was probably one of the most difficult ones in the studio, because it's often, at least in my experience, the ones that we have to fight so hard when we're in the studio are often the ones that are worth fighting for the most.

That's what I was learning as I was there. I was just like, I won't lie, I was doubting it. My producer was like full steam ahead. He's like, no, no, no, we got this. You know, he was keeping me positive because I, I tend to think negative if I don't watch myself. So I was like, I don't know about this. And he's like, no, we got it. And it came together.

Well, I'm glad it did. And I'm glad he was able to bring that together. So I like to ask artists when, when they're on the show, usually around the time of when we close our conversation, and I can see my time is just about up here tonight, but I wonder kind of when you're in the studio, um, different people do different things. Some artists are, are— they love to play all the instruments on their album, and other artists, they're great instrumentalists, but in the studio they don't always go near an instrument. They just use their voice and that. So what is it like for you whenever you go in to record?

That's a great question. No one's asked me that. Um, Yeah, I'm a vocalist, so I play a little acoustic and piano, but I would never do it in a studio yet. I'm not ready for that. Um, but I'm a writer and a vocalist, and so I leave the playing to the musicians, but I do love to be a part of planning, like, what is it going to sound like, where are we going with it, you know, what are the references for this song. And I love getting involved in that way. But one thing that I found is I'm a worship leader. That's what I've done my whole life. Um, The artistry thing is new for me. And at Southeastern was my first taste of being in a recording studio, and that was in college. But I'm more of a live vocalist. And so I actually really struggle in the studio. I have to make sure that my voice is ready and prepared because there's something about being in a room full of people, like worshiping the Lord, where I just feel, at least for me, my voice comes out better. Things are clearer. There's more power. There's more dynamics. And in the studio— and I know for some people it's the total opposite. But for me, I have to really have my head in the game and remember my lyrics, really feel it totally. I don't like to look at the lyrics as I go because I want to know that I feel it as I'm singing it. And I had a great producer who is an incredible vocalist, and him and his wife were helping me. In those weak moments. His wife Nerva was making me tea constantly, hot tea, and helping me with some of the more difficult notes. And when my voice would get tired, thankfully somehow we, we got through some pretty intense vocal sessions, but we were able to get through it. So yeah, in the studio it's a little bit harder for me, so I'm still learning how to navigate time in the studio because you're also you're up against the clock in some ways. People can't stay forever. You have to track the next person. And so, um, just trying to learn my confidence a little bit more in the studio and trust God with that part of it as well, um, and not just the, the live aspect of my voice.

So, well, good. Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one that struggles in the recording studio from time to time because it's hard.

Yeah, it is.

It's a whole different animal for sure. So Well, thank you. Yeah, thanks for just sharing so much of your process about your songs tonight and, and great things. Tell our listeners, just as we finish our conversation, what's the best way online, uh, for them to find out more about you? And I'll make sure to put a link in the show notes as well so they can just go to the notes and be able to click right on it.

Awesome. Yeah, so my album Out to Get Me is out anywhere you stream music, whatever platform— Apple Music, Spotify, Amazon, wherever you listen to music. And then my Instagram is Jen Chenoweth with two N's, Jen. And Jen Chenoweth Music is my YouTube channel, and you can find music videos there and things like that. So those are the main platforms that you can find me.

All right, fantastic. Well, Jen Chenoweth, thank you for being one of the voices in my head this week. It's been a real pleasure. God bless you.

Thank you, you too.