Matt K. Lewis and Filthy Rich Politicians

Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, songwriter, author, worship leader, an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene, and most recently, a hospital chaplain. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss things that are on my mind. The Voices in My Head. Music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more are all on the table as I discuss them here with friends and colleagues and sometimes just by myself, processing what I'm learning in the moment. Make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes, tweeting to me @RickLeeJames on Twitter, and by joining my mailing list at rickleejames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. By the way, in case you are interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the loudest voices in my head, which is ironic because he was such a quiet person. Also, if you do want to be notified about all of my latest releases, not just this podcast, sign up for email notifications on my Substack page found at rickleejames.substack.com. Substack.com. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so let's get to the latest episode of Voices in My Head, the Rick Lee James podcast. Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I'm your host, Rick Lee James, and I'm so grateful for all of you who are listening today. In Filthy Rich Politicians, author Matt Lewis embarks on an investigative deep dive into the ridiculous hopeless state of modern American democracy, a system where the rich get elected and the elected get rich. One of the brightest conservative writers of his generation, Matt Lewis, doesn't just complain. He articulates how Americans can achieve accountability from their elected leaders through radically common-sense reforms. But many of these ruling class elites have a vested financial interest in rejecting the reforms so desperately needed to rebuild Americans' trust in the institutions that once made our nation great. This is not an eat the rich kind of book. And it is not for those who want to stoke class warfare, topple the whole regime and burn it all to the ground. This is a must-read book for thoughtful readers who yearn for transparency and will commit to holding their elected leaders accountable to those they are supposed to represent. We the people. Matt Lewis is here for a conversation about his brand new book, and I am so glad to be able to talk about Filthy Rich Politicians with Matt Lewis. Matt, welcome back to Voices in My Head.

Rick, thank you for having me back.

Well, it— I just want to say at the beginning today, because we're going to be releasing this, I think, the day after it comes out. So it will be like, like right in line with the schedule, but we're recording it a bit early. But I want to say in advance, at the time of recording, just congratulations on a well-done book. And I appreciate it, being able to read an advanced copy of it. I know how hard it is to write a book and all the hours you put into it. And so, so just— we'll just begin by saying congratulations.

Thank you.

And well done.

Thank you. And let me say, it is an honor and a privilege to get to write a book. I write 3 political columns a week. And that's it. Those are different muscles.

Yeah.

And different challenges. And so yeah, writing a book is hard. But man, it's a blessing to have the opportunity. So I'm grateful to get to write it down, honestly, to get to talk about it too.

Yeah, well, I'm excited to be able to do so today. And there, there's just so much like rich information and the stories are great. And, and it's, it's not like a bleak book. It's got some good humor to it. So it's, it's one that I really would recommend to people, especially if they're, they're wondering about this topic. And it seems like there's just this infinite amount of wealth that's out there in political circles. And I was surprised even like from the very beginning of the book and the outset, and when you start talking about the Founding Fathers and all the presidents and just different ones and just how rich people have been for so long. So there's lots of great things to talk about today. But let's just start with what inspired you to write this book in the first place and sort of what was your, your motivation to do this?

So to be honest, this is like the break in the fourth wall or whatever. I, I wrote this book because my agent had an idea. Bernard Goldberg, you know, who's the former journalist who wrote a book called Bias about the media, also wrote a book. It was something like The 100 People Who Are Screwing Up the World.

Oh, okay.

And this was about 15 or 20 years ago, and it was a huge hit. And it was just a list of 100 people. And like Rush Limbaugh was one of them, but Al Franken, I think, was one of them. It was kind of bipartisan. And it was just each chapter was a different person screwing up the world. And he ranted about it. So my agent had this idea to write the 100 richest politicians in America. Hmm. And he thought that I would be the right person to write about it. And so, you know, I'm a writer. I've been wanting to write a book. I've pitched several ideas that frankly went nowhere. You know, they got basically, I got thanks but no thanks notes, you know, from publishers. And so we took this idea and I thought, well, this is going to be a little bit salacious. The 100 richest politicians in America. It's going to be kind of like Kardashians meets William F. Buckley or something like that. And the cool thing is that Center Street, which is the conservative imprint of Hachette, they were interested in it, but they told me like, but we want it to be more substantive. We want you to have a more serious thesis. And I was like, thank you. That's like, so you want to do the book but actually make it even more interesting to me and less salacious?

Yeah.

And so that's where it kind of— that's where it came from. My wife is a Republican political fundraiser, so I am sort of aware of money in politics, but this is actually not something that I've ever been obsessed with or interested in. And so, to be honest with you, as I started looking into this and writing a proposal to write the book, that's when I realized— when we all kind of intuitively know that there are a lot of rich people in politics, but it wasn't, you know, even I, who've been writing about politics for decades, whose wife is a Republican fundraiser, I didn't realize how pervasive this is.

Yeah.

Until I started. Writing the proposal. And that's when I got hooked. And that's when I found— that's when I became passionate about, about telling the story.

Yeah. Well, and you tell it so well. And, you know, I, as I said, I didn't realize so much that was there. I think we have this, as you said, there's almost like this feeling like, well, there must be some really rich people, you know, and there must be some real money flowing. But until you actually kind of see the research and go like, whoa, like, like, not only is this like a confirmation, it kind of like blows the doors off the confirmation. And so you can see all of it together in one place. So I was wondering, just in your research, what some of the most surprising or even shocking findings were for you as you came across it? Because as you talked about, you're— it's not like you're distant from it with your wife and what she does and the work that you do. But, but it seems like there was some things that were a surprise, you know, as you were writing it.

Yeah. Well, I'll tell you two things that come to mind. One is actually from my wife. As I was writing this book and I was sort of informally interviewing her, she told me that in order to have a chance to be elected to the House of Representatives, the lower house, not the US Senate, but the House, the people's house, you know, that you either had to self-fund or you had to raise $300,000 from your personal network in the first quarter you're running before you can actually start raising money from normal political donors or the PACs, you know, political action committees. So, wow, this isn't raising money from rich people. This is your personal network to make you, to even get you in the game, to get your foot in the door. Mm-hmm. And I started thinking, you know, and I, I live in West Virginia right now. My wife's from West Virginia. We moved here a few years ago and there just happens to be, you know, an open Senate seat. There's probably going to be an open House seat. And I'm like, I know a lot about politics. What if I wanted to run? Like, I couldn't run. I wouldn't really be— I wouldn't have a shot even at getting elected to the House because I can't raise $300,000. I can't donate that from my personal coffers and I can't raise it from my Christmas card list.

Yeah.

So that really hit home with me in a way that people talking about money and politics and lamenting, oh, the money, this really hit home to me. The other thing is, you'll remember I was saying how the original idea of the book was the 100 richest politicians in America. We moved away from that. But what I did is in the appendix of the book, Right. I did rank Business Insider in 2021, ranked the top 100, I think it was. And so I took the top 25 richest members of Congress. This is personal wealth, not campaign donations, but their personal wealth. And so I took Business Insider's list and then I researched the top 25 richest politicians in America. And what's interesting is of the 25, about half of them kind of earned their money. People like Rick Scott is an example of someone— is the richest member of Congress right now, and he kind of comes from a hardscrabble upbringing. But about half of them— oh, actually more than half— 13 of the 25, according to my calculations, got their money either by marrying into it or by being the children and/or grandchildren of incredibly rich people. Wow. And that really, really hit home to me. And again, I think these, you know, people listening might think, well, yeah, we, everybody knows they're rich. But once you start getting into these stories and seeing who these people are, that is when it really becomes like, wow, this is a different level. This isn't just the rich person I know at my country club. This is, some big, big, big money.

Yeah, that— and I was gonna say before, when you were talking about the original idea, I was going to say it reminds me of what you did with the appendix a little bit. Yep. And it's especially, you know, funny when you read that, that some of these are the— are very much the, you know, well, you got to pull yourself up by the bootstraps kind of people, you know. And when, when you hear that kind of language, like, you know, well, you people just need to go out and get a job or something, you know. And it's— and then you find out, like, well, these are the same ones that married into this, you know, like, all this wealth that's coming. So that's hardly fair, you know, reply from some angles. But I wonder if this would be a good time though. I, I had asked you if you would mind reading just a small segment of your book actually, because when we're talking about, for instance, people who were born into great amount of money— and, and by the way, one thing that I, I want to point out to our listeners today is it's not like you're casting stones at people in the way that you write in this book, because this is just a well-researched book and, and it's kind of like Wow, isn't this amazing to read about this? And I don't want people to get the idea that we're just here to, to dog on rich people or something, because, I mean, that would be, that would be counterproductive, I think, if we were to do that. But there are some amazing stories that we read about and we just go, hmm, you know, they're kind of thinkers. And one of them to me was when you write about nepo babies or nepotism, you know, is what that's short for. And Sarah Jacobs is a person that you wrote about, and I just found it kind of fascinating. About her lineage, so to speak, and what she has. But would you mind just reading a little bit from that section of the book?

Happy to. Actually, real quick, though, I just want to add into what you were saying, because you're totally right. You know, I'm a conservative Republican. My wife's a Republican fundraiser. I aspire to be rich. I don't— so this is not, you know, a Marxist diatribe against money. The book's about why the rich get elected. And why the elected get rich. And that to me, that second part of the equation is the most concerning, that elected people tend to get richer. Yeah. But the first part, that rich people tend to get elected, I think is also interesting. Again, I aspire to be rich and being some of the people in the book, you know, another person I talk about is Kevin Hearn, who's a congressman who's got an amazing story. This is a guy who grew up in a house without running water. He was born with spina bifida. His parents were on food stamps, and he basically ended up working at a McDonald's restaurant and then owning McDonald's restaurants. And now he's one of the richest members of Congress. So like, that, in my opinion, is an inspirational story. But let me read to you, as you've requested, the nepo grandbaby. So I'm reading now. While hard work, smarts, and luck and connections still pay off, it's also fair to say that many of the richest politicians in America come from wealthy families. One such example is Representative Sarah Jacobs, Democrat of California, who is just 33 years old as I write this. Jacobs is the granddaughter of Irwin Jacobs, the tech billionaire, founder, and former chairman of Qualcomm. In 2018, Jacobs joined a crowded field vying to replace Darrell Issa in California's 49th District. Considering Jacobs was still in her late 20s, it's no surprise that her resume was sparse. But according to the San Diego Union Tribune, Jacobs, quote, exaggerated her work experience by saying she, quote, was a policymaker who worked for the State Department under President Barack Obama. In reality, Jacobs was a junior employee working for a government contractor, and federal regulations prohibited her from making policies. She lost that primary election, finishing third. But you can't keep the rich down for long. In 2020, Jacobs switched to California's 53rd District in central San Diego, where she faced off against a 44-year-old San Diego Council President Georgette Gomez, a fellow Democrat The contrast was stark. Whereas Jacobs was a young woman of privilege, the American Prospect described Gomez as a queer woman of color with decades of community organizing experience. Likewise, the Times of San Diego described Gomez's campaign image as that of an up-from-the-barrio fighter for social justice who found ways to move San Diego's needle, even with council Republican support. As Gomez said, my grocery store was a liquor store and my playground was surrounded by freeways. Guess who won? In addition to the money Jacobs put into her own campaign, her grandparents also spent $1.5 million on a super PAC to boost her 2020 election, as Vox reported. If you want to make it to Congress in your early 30s, it helps to have rich parents and grandparents.

That's Sarah Jacobs. To say the least, it's a help. So, well, you know, and one thing that strikes me as you read that, and thank you for doing that, by the way, this was the first version of the audiobook, you know, that we have. Yes.

And I'm not even reading the audiobook this time around, probably. So this is my first time reading out loud anything from the book. I'm amazed I didn't think— I'm thankful and amazed I didn't find any mistakes because reading your work out loud is different than reading it silently. Yeah.

For sure, it's true. Well, you know, it strikes me too, just, you know, hearing Sarah Jacobs' story and, and the reality and then the narrative that's told, um, it reminds me of just the power behind narrative, you know, and the stories that we tell, um, and so much of not just politics but life, you know, it's all about the narratives that we tell and how we tell the story and, and ways that we, um, put these things into people's minds and into our own minds and our own stories. We have this narrative, so, you know, just, I, that kept coming back to me again and again. There is power to the narrative that people tell because there's the reality and then there's the story.

Totally. And actually, Gomez, her primary opponent, had a better narrative, you know, uh, up from the barrio. But Jacobs had the money, and with the money you can tell the story and, and, uh, more people can hear the story. And I will say this too, this book is you know, we talk about Donald Trump and his family and we talk about Joe Biden and his family. And, you know, we have a whole chapter on all the presidents— Andrew Jackson, George H.W. Bush, George Washington, all the wealth. So there's a lot of famous people in this book, but there's also a lot of people that you've never heard of. Like Sarah Jacobs is not a household name.

Exactly.

But she is one of the richest members of Congress. And so I feel like with this book, I'm able to introduce kind of casual political followers to some of these figures and introduce them. Yeah.

Well, and I think that was one of the things that I found most interesting about it, because it wasn't to me the most interesting reading about the ones that I knew the best, but it was more people like Sarah Jacobs. And, and that's just what's fascinating to me. And in a world where there is also so much poverty. I'm amazed that there's still that— also so much wealth, and it seems so far removed from where we live day-to-day life, and especially the implications of what that means. I'm very interested in for people who are making decisions for, you know, we the people, so to speak, but who are actually maybe not very closely connected to the people who are— you know, most of us don't live on those kind of salaries and don't live in those kinds of worlds. So, um, it's, it's It's a concern. And I think there's implications for that. And again, not to cast stones at rich people, although I guess the argument could be made Jesus had a few choice words about it, you know, in the midst of it, like, be careful what we do with the riches that we have, you know, and be careful with how we live. And, and if we don't have an eye to helping those who, who need it in the midst of it, then that can be— again, what is it? It's, it's, we often misquote and say that money is the root of all evil, but it's actually the love of it. And, uh, and so I think there's a real sense that it can be like anything else. It can be used as a real tool, uh, to help other people flourish, or it can be something that can actually just go in our pockets and kind of rot, you know, so to speak. So I, I appreciate the, the way that you've approached, um, this story, just, and even knowing who you are and a person of integrity. Um, I don't mind so much when someone like you says, I aspire to be rich, uh, because I know what you would do with it is different than what a lot of people would. And, and I'm grateful for you in that hard too.

I want more money and I want to be able to give more money away.

Yeah, yeah.

I'd love to be able to do that. One thing that— so I, I do, I think it's important to tell people that like this is not a left-wing diatribe about, you know, rich people. You also mentioned early on that it's funny and I really I'm glad you said that. When I think around the time that I got this book deal, PJ O'Rourke, who was one of my heroes, passed away. And he was a very funny and irreverent conservative-leaning libertarian kind of writer. And when he passed away, it made me think like, I'd like to inject some humor. My column writing doesn't have a lot of humor. I want to try make this a little bit funny. And I think I did that. And the thing that made, makes me think it is that I was able to get some blurbs from people. So I asked Andy Ferguson, who's one of the greatest living political writers in America today, and he actually was an assistant to P.J. O'Rourke, helped him write some of his biggest books. And And, you know, Andy Ferguson read this book and gave me a quote that mentioned that was funny. And the same thing of Ramesh Ponnuru did the same thing. And I, that was unprompted. And so it does my heart good. I'm happy that people think, because you know what, it doesn't hurt to have a little levity. We're reading a, there's a lot of serious stuff happening in America today. And if you can learn something and occasionally laugh, That is a, that's a twofer.

Yeah, I agree very much so. And that's also, it's a way to disarm, I think. And sometimes what can be very difficult conversations, sometimes humor can help us to have those conversations. And I always find that a person that does not have a sense of humor about themselves, those are the people that worry me. You know, because like, you need to lighten up a little bit because really it's not so serious. And there is joy joy in life for sure. But, um, yeah, you know, one thing I wanted to make sure, Matt, that we talked about, because I don't want to run out of time and there's so much in your book, but the one thing that, that I found very interesting, and it's toward the end of the book when you begin talking about, um, ways that, that we can consider, uh, maybe to do things better, some new considerations to have. And you quote Ben Franklin, speaking of funny people, you know. Yes, because Ben Franklin had just infinitely quotable for sure. But, uh, you quote him and Ben Franklin and famously said outside of Independence Hall in 1787, "A republic, if you can keep it," which became, you know, a very famous phrase. And, and near the close of the book, you begin asking some, some good questions about, you know, can we keep it, you know, especially if we continue in this trajectory? And then you give us some reform ideas that are worth considerations, and there's several really good ideas. One that I wondered if we could talk about in, in those considerations was one that, that sounds hmm, when you first hear it, but then as you explain, it starts to make more sense. And you say that something to consider is pay Congress more. And, and I thought, well, that would be a good discussion point for us to talk about today, because we'll hear that just like when I first read the heading, and I thought, huh, that's a head-scratcher. Um, so talk to us a little bit about that. Like, why, why is that, in your opinion, a good idea? Because your book is not only just like reporting on things. I love that you are giving some thought to some ways that we might actually find some solutions to some of these problems that it creates.

Thank you. Yeah, I think it's counterintuitive, right, to pay them more. But I think so putting it in context is important. The reforms include things like banning congressional stock trading. So there are a lot of members of Congress who are making millions of dollars by betting on the stock market, in some cases having information that appears to be inside information. And so the pay increase would go along with banning stock trading. It would also go along with term limits, and it would also go along with basically treating book deals the way that we treat speeches. So since 19, I think 1981, I think I have to look that up, but In the last several decades, it is illegal for members of Congress to get paid for giving speeches. And the reason for that is that it was a way that people could funnel money to politicians personally. So if you were a donor, you wanted to help line the pockets of a politician and maybe to bribe them, who knows, you could hire them for a speech and pay them $1 million or something for a speech. That is no longer legal. But books have this different arrangement where basically, um, you're essentially, without going into too much details, politicians can make a lot of money writing books. And, and so they do. And so I would get rid of that. I, I would limit their ability to kind of get rich writing books. And so the, the pay increase that I'm, that I'm advocating is essentially a way of saying, All these things that you're doing on the side, like writing books and betting on the stock market.

Yeah.

No, we're not going to get rich doing that. But to make up for it a little bit, we're going to pay you more money. And the reason for that is partly because we, we don't want Congress to be a place where only the rich can afford to live. Right. Like, sir, you know, I know $174,000 seems like a lot of money, But in Washington, D.C., if you have a family, it's really not that much money. And a lot of these members of Congress, they have to have a house in Oregon and a house in Washington, D.C. Either that or you have them sleeping on the floor of their congressional office or the couch, which some of them do, or you have them living in a weird group house. And, you know, there's a lot of things that could happen. So, yes, I think it's, it's counterintuitive. But if we want to attract kind of the best and brightest people to Congress, we want them to— we don't want there to be a brain drain where they all flee for the tech world or for Wall Street or something to make money. I think we have to pay them more, but we have to expect more from them. And I don't think it's asking too much to say, look, you're going to come to Washington for X number of years. You're not going to make it a career. You're not going to stay here forever. But while you're here, You're not going to get rich writing a book and you're not going to get rich betting on the stock market.

Yeah.

And so that's kind of the deal that I have in mind.

Yeah. To me, I hear that and it sounds like common sense, you know, and it sounds like it. Yeah. And I appreciate that. But yeah, we're— while these are excellent ideas, I would love to see them implemented. But, you know, things like that, I love that you put that, it that way in your book, because when you read it at first and you think, pay them more, what? But then the idea of like, maybe if we limited some other ways, and it really is almost like the idea of like paying a person a living wage for them to do the work that they're hired to do, but not expect them to be doing 15 other jobs, you know, in the midst.

You just, you just summed up my entire answer much more eloquently than I put it.

Oh, I wouldn't say that. But, uh, but yeah, it's, it's The end of the book, I think it was the last chapter actually. I was reading it late into the night, so forgive me if I'm getting any details wrong, but that whole last chapter really has some excellent ideas and it leads into that appendix that was so helpful that I felt like, and there's just a lot of really interesting research that's gone into the book and my mind can't quite wrap around some of the things in it. When I think about the amount of wealth, and you had mentioned like Trump and Biden earlier and different people who are very prominent and well-known. And it was interesting even reading like, because, you know, Joe Biden almost has this reputation of being like the working man's, you know, the poor guy politician. And in some regards, it almost feels that way, but only because politicians are so incredibly rich. Yeah.

In comparison to Donald Trump. Joe Biden is a piker.

Right, exactly. But that's not to say that he's poor, because he's by no means, you know, he's still a very rich person. And so it's all these perspectives that we come to, and it's just fascinating. And again, it comes back to what I believe, as we said earlier, the power of narrative, and the way you tell the story is going to make so much difference, and then how people perceive that. And we so often make choices based off of feeling rather than fact. And sometimes, as we're seeing now, you know, even with, you know, multiple indictments coming, you know, down the pike for several people and including, you know, former President Trump, the facts don't always seem to matter. People will hear what they want to hear in the midst of all of it. And I just find that infinitely fascinating about why we do that as people. And so I just want to— I can't believe so much time has passed in our conversation already. We're already past a half hour, but But I want to thank you because this really took a lot of time, I can tell, and you put a lot of resources into researching the book. And I really feel like it's worth it for the appendix, just being able to look at that. Honestly, it's, it's so cool to be able to kind of read and, and just have your mind kind of blown by some of the statistics that are there. And then there's like a second appendix just about presidents, you know, in the other part. And that's fascinating to read as well. But what are— what is there some— anything maybe we haven't touched on today? Because I— it's always hard when we're talking about a book because there's so much to it. And I want to find out, is there something that you're just especially excited about that after writing the book and in the research you did that you feel like, oh, I really want to talk about this today? Is there anything that we missed in our time together that you just want to make sure you point out today?

Yeah, no, thanks for the opportunity. I think I think just to sort of close on this would be, why does this matter? Right?

Yeah.

And the reason it matters, in my opinion, is because right now there is a sense that the game is rigged. There is a sense that there are these elites and these elected officials and these institutions who no longer care about bottoms. And I think there are a lot of, by the way, I think there's many, many reasons, things that are playing into this, right? So like faith and trust in institutions has been declining since basically Watergate and the Vietnam War. And for good reason, right? There were a lot of elites who really didn't deserve, did not deserve our trust and respect. So I'm not suggesting that rich politicians is the most important problem even in the world that's causing the, the lack of trust. But I think it is. I have research in the book, and this is like in chapter 1 where I document that, that we have seen the, the, a couple things have been happening. Number 1, the, from about 1984 to 2010, congressional median wealth more than doubled while the wealth of the average American family declined. So there have always been rich politicians, but the gap between the average American and the average politician has widened dramatically in the last couple of decades. We now have— for the— I think it happened in 2014, I believe, for the first time ever, more than half of the members of Congress are millionaires. And this is happening at a time where a lot of Americans feel squeezed, right? And there is data, Pew Research surveys and other surveys that demonstrate that members of Congress are no longer trusted and that there's a sense that they're more interested in feathering their own nest than they are in doing the work of the American people. And so I think that that is why this matters, that there is a perception that members of Congress, that the rich get elected and the elected get rich and that they're using their perch to get richer. Right. And so including things like insider trading, there's a whole chapter on how they spread the wealth around to their families and loved ones, spouses, boyfriends. There's a chapter on how they live lavishly and sort of take advantage of, of of being a politician. And so I think that's why it matters. And again, I try to make the book fun and light and even funny, but there is a theme. And that's why I say, a republic if you can keep it.

Yeah.

Like right now, liberal democracy is on the ropes. And it's important that our elites and especially our quote unquote public servants, deserve, that they, that they earn our respect and our trust. And I think there's good reason right now that they haven't.

Well, and, you know, a thought occurred to me just as you were talking today, and it almost feels like a real cautionary tale. And this is going to come way out of the blue because it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with your book, but it does. But I run this Twitter account where I just quote Mr. Rogers. It's got, you know, so many people. I mean, it's, it's, it's just a lot of— it's one of my one of my great joys in life is every day I just put a new Fred Rogers quote up, and people are just so hungry for that kind of kindness. And, um, but what a lot of people might not know is, is Fred Rogers was very wealthy. I don't, I don't think he was like politician wealthy like we're talking about in this book, but he was— he had a lot of money. And even people who knew Fred Rogers and said he was even more Mr. Rogers off the screen than he was on the screen, and he was one of the kindest human beings— his own children say, you know, in the, in the documentary, you know, it's kind of hard to grow up when your dad's like the second Jesus, you know, and you think about it. But even he— cast members would say they didn't talk bad about him. But some of the cast members like Betty Averill would say, because he had so much wealth, he was oblivious at times to the things that people on his— who worked for him were going through. And at times, he just couldn't understand why they would complain about the salaries they were making. And he would try to be fair, but he really wasn't paying them probably what they deserved in that regard. So So all that is to say, if even Mr. Rogers had difficulty, you know, handling wealth, as kind and generous and a wonderful person in the whole world— you won't find a critic of Mr. Rogers, I don't think, very often— but even when he— some of the stories that were told, I just, I think it's a very good reminder for us that even the purest of hearts can have a hard time handling wealth. And so I just want to maybe close our conversation and think like, this is a very Uh, with all the good humor and, and the great writing in your book, this is also something very serious for us to think about. And, and we should all be very cautious entering into that relationship with money because we want to make sure, um, that we have a strong, I think, community around us. That I think what you're advocating for is a community that helps keep us accountable. And as you said, you know, if the politicians are going to be accountable to the people underneath them, this all comes back to us actually having these conversations and living this life together and not putting ourselves, you know, one up here and one down here and never the twain shall meet. So, um, yeah, that kind of came out of, out of left field, completely out of nowhere.

No, it was perfect. And I'm probably going to use the Fred Rogers story in subsequent interviews because it really makes that point so well.

Yeah. And, and, and again, he was— the people were that I've read, because I've read a number of books about his life, and he was an amazing person, um, But, but even when, when he had a difficult time, you know, handling, uh, what wealth and, and what it meant, uh, I think it's important for the rest of us also to keep that in mind for sure. So, well, Matt Lewis, the time has just flown by today, and I really want to say thank you again for, uh, letting me be able to read this in advance and to be able to talk about it with you. And I know life is busy for all of us, but I'm, I'm grateful to always, when we have these conversations together. And I want to let everybody listening know that, uh, there will be links in the show notes for this podcast. So if you're listening and you go, hey, I want to get a copy of this book, if the technology works the way it's supposed to, you'll be able to just click straight from the podcast and it'll take you right to where the book is. And there's also going to be a link to Matt's website. So I just want to make sure everybody knows that you can easily get to there from the podcast today. And also check out Matt Lewis and the News, one of my favorite podcasts to listen to, and has one of the most clever names of any podcast out there for So, well, Matt Lewis, thank you for being one of the Voices in My Head this week.

It is my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. Music on the intro and outro of this show is from my single "As I Walk These Halls," which can be streamed on any streaming platform, including Spotify. I hope you'll visit me on my website at RickLeeJames.com where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, schedule me for a concert, a speaking engagement, a podcast, or even a book signing in your neighborhood. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. The more positive reviews we receive, the more visible this podcast will be. And now the benediction: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope.