The CCLI Conversation with The Evangelicals - Episode 462

Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James.

I'm a recording artist, a singer, a songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more with friends, colleagues, and sometimes just by myself. Now make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes or by tweeting at me @RickLeeJames on Twitter. And please join my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. By the way, in case you're interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the voices in my head. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of Voices in My Head.

Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I'm your host Rick Lee James, and this is a special special podcast today because it's actually a dual podcast, not a dueling podcast necessarily, but a dual podcast with a couple of friends of mine. They've been on the show before, but it's been a while. It's Jonathan Berkey and Jeremy Thompson, who are the hosts of a podcast that I listen to very frequently. Uh, actually, I would say every time an episode comes out, I try to put it on my playlist and listen in. Uh, the, the podcast that they host is called The Evangelicals, and a lot packed into that name, which we might get into a little bit today, but I'm so glad to have a chance today. This was actually inspired by one of their last episodes, the conversation that we want to have, which I think is going to be focused in around CCLI, the good, the bad, the ugly, all those things about Christian copywriting for songwriters and organizations like that. So, uh, Jonathan, Jeremy, welcome back to Voices in My Head.

Thanks, man. Welcome to the Evangelicals.

Yeah, for those of you who don't know, I'm Jonathan.

And I'm Jeremy.

We are the Evangelicals. That's how we always start our show.

Wonder Twin Powers unite! I feel like, you know, like the form of a bucket of communion water. You know, I've just, you know, that's my silly Super Friends references there. So, well, guys, thank you for joining me today. It's really exciting for me to get to sit and visit with you. I know that we all lead busy lives, and even today we had to reschedule because of some meetings that were going on, but I'm grateful for a few minutes to sit and just talk with some friends about ministry and about life, and specifically today maybe about CCLI. And my dogs are barking in the background. Sorry if that gets too loud. And sounds like a garbage truck's going by, there's dogs barking, so everything about this screams professionalism right now as we go into this conversation. So maybe quickly, for people that might not have heard your last episode, I wonder if you guys can remember enough about it to possibly recap just just a little bit of what you said because it struck a chord with me that I wanted to talk about today. You guys had delved in a bit at some point on the show to CCLI and the topic of conversation of what that is. For those of you that may not know who are listening, CCLI is a— basically it's an organization that pays out royalties to worship songwriters. It has some other aspects to it, but it's a way that if your church is a member of CCLI, then they are supposed to report the songs that they use, and it goes to pay the writers. And there's different aspects of CCLI now that have happened over the last few years that have to do with videos that you show in church. They have to do with pretty much anything about, I guess, what we would call performance rights, even though that's kind of a crass way to think of worship as a performance, you know, when we come together. But the reality is it's something we have. So I wonder if quickly, could one or both of you kind of recap cap as well as you can remember your conversation from the last show, which kind of inspired this one today.

Jeremy, it started from some of your comments about Rich Mullins, right?

I think it— yeah, I feel like it was more— it started on a bigger scale of how too often sometimes we label things Christian, and I don't think this is exactly how the conversation went, and we just assume that it's pure in all of its motives and from where it's coming from, but there is some capitalistic ideas about which music gets put out, why we make music.

And it—

so I think that the conversation started from a place of sometimes people are in it to make money, and even in the Christian music industry, CCM, I think, as we started there, And then it kind of trickled down into the whole CCLI and how it can be— sometimes, like I said, we think because it has the label Christian, then they must have this kingdom agenda. They must be having this understanding that they— this biblical understanding of how we are to live and what it looks like. But it could just be that they're into making money and they're using this as a way to get at after making money. And Rich Mullins speaks to that a lot, and he was part of the industry, and yet he spoke against it a lot as well. So I think that's kind of what I remember, Jonathan. I don't know, maybe you can fill in some of the pieces, but I think, I think it started from that bigger perspective and then got to CCLI on some level as we were having that conversation.

Yeah, and one of the things I think we brought up there— so there's a really popular worship collective right now called Maverick City Music. And, um, they, you know, started this kind of this somewhat organic, like, grassroots worship thing, uh, in Georgia. I mean, they were connected, but you could go on their website and, like, you know, buy, you know, chord charts from them for, you kind of, a reasonable amount of money, or, like, just get their music from them. And recently they've stopped providing their music on their own website because their most recent albums, they say you just go to CCLI. Well, to go to CCLI, you have to have a membership. You got to be paying, you know, a significant amount of money every month. And essentially, you know, um, by doing that, they limited access of their music to people who are in churches with a big enough budget to be paying royalties to CCLI. So your home churches, your people that have no interest in paying royalties to this organization of lawyers that charges people so that they can perform worship songs. Those people don't have access to their music anymore. And I am a major advocate. I hope in my lifetime to see the Christian church move to a place of open source everything. I don't know why we're selling anything to anybody. And I think I like to give Life.Church a hard time just because it's easy to make fun of the thing that's big. But one of the things that I do appreciate about Life.Church is that they've made their video streaming service open source, which is really— they could be making a ton of money off of that. I mean, they are making a good amount of money on lots of things that they're doing, but I think that they've innovated in a way that I wish more people with influence would look at them and say, you know what, they're just doing the Christian thing by offering things open source, and maybe we could have faith that God would provide for us. But the fact of the matter is Chris Tomlin still wants his nickels, even though he doesn't need another nickel for the rest of his life.

You know, it's interesting too, the industry as a whole has changed so much over the years. I can remember back when even Christian music itself was such a radio-driven medium, and then all of a sudden everything changed on radio stations to now we're exclusively worship stations, and then everything that we started hearing in church became, you know, wow, it sounds like what's on the radio, you know, right now in all of those instances. So there is a, there is a huge business behind it and a very market-driven thing. And it's, it's a, it's, you know, there's, there's maybe more cons than pros when we talk about this conversation. As one who myself, I benefit a little bit from CCLI, but not in a way that I could like make a living or anything and have it be my only source of income as, as a songwriter. Um, and I, and I have, uh, some ups and downs with it that I'll, that I'll share about.

No, hold on, can we, can we— because this is going to go to our audience too, Rick.

Sure.

Um, this song, uh, the, the St. Patrick's Hymn, did you, did you write that, that rendition, that little, that chorus that's put on the way—

that's put on where?

I think Lifeway, is that right?

Lifeway is the publisher. Yeah, I wrote the, uh, the song with a another songwriter who was out of Atlanta at the time.

Can you give our listeners the name of that song? They need to look it up if they don't know who you are. That is a song worth listening to. I was refreshed on St. Pat— that was my St. Patrick's morning devotional.

Oh man, thank you.

This last week.

Yeah.

What song is that?

It's called Christ is Lord, and then there's like a parenthesis next to it as like a subtitle, Christ Before Me. Yes.

Yes.

If anybody's interested, I mean, you can stream it anywhere. But thank you.

We're going to sing it on Easter Sunday at our church.

Oh, awesome. We are too. That's awesome. I'm so glad to hear that.

Thank you. Yeah, Rick is writing great music. I don't want to make him on our podcast toot his own horn. Rick is actually trying to thoughtfully engage the church with— he's a killer guitar player. We didn't really intro Rick for our listeners. He's one of the best guitar players that's actually in the church, in my personal opinion, and he's really writing really thoughtful stuff. And so when he says, you know, he's right. He's not at Chris Tomlin's level of popularity, but as far as like writing songs that are actually helpful for the church and are really meaningful and beautiful musical, he's there, you guys. So you need to check out his stuff. I think it's really helpful. But anyway, I did interrupt you, Rick. Sorry, but you were saying—

No, you can interrupt me to lavish compliments anytime. I'm more than, you know, I'm such a self-loather underneath it all. I thrive on that kind of encouragement, so thank you. I really appreciate it. You're too kind. No, but I was just thinking over some of the things like the benefits, the pluses, the minuses. I had a similar conversation to this with a gentleman named Phil Seas a while back, and several years ago, Phil, at the time when I was talking to him, He was the publisher/editor of Worship Leader magazine at the time, and he had actually just won— the day that we had talked, like the night before, they had announced that he had won like a Latino Dove Award or something. Like, it was a branch that I didn't even realize existed, but it was for like a Hispanic album that he had done. So he's somebody that has a lot of like connection with the industry, but also a very seemingly very servant-minded person in a lot of ways, and definitely was doing something new for non-English-speaking people with that album and was trying to make some things accessible. And as he told me, like, the award wasn't the purpose behind it. The purpose was to try to find ways to help the church sing, you know. And he had said to me an interesting thing that I hadn't you know, considered because we always think of the big names, and he was one that kind of hobnobbed with a lot of them at that time as the editor of that magazine. He said, he said, the perception is that a lot of people are getting rich off of things like CCLI. He said, the reality is the people I know and the ones I come across with, most of the writers and people, partially because of maybe deals they've signed or whatever, he said, most of them aren't making very much. You know, like through the service like CCLI. And his interpretation was CCLI is doing like the bare minimum it can to support, you know, like wherever that money's going, if it's going anywhere, it's not necessarily going always to those artists. It doesn't seem like, you know, which was kind of his take on it, you know, at the time. And I'd have to listen back. It's been years since we had that conversation, so I don't want to put words in in his mouth about it. But it did seem like, as I was trying to— for me, one of the easiest ways to, for instance, the song you just mentioned, Christ is Lord, Christ before Me, one of the easiest ways for me to be able to tell churches that use like a service like CCLI's SongSelect, like if you want a copy of it, rather than say you have to go to my site and buy it, I can say to them, well, you can print it off from, you know, CCLI SongSelect and just, you know, make whatever copies you need, do it that way. But the downside of that, even as a songwriter, is it is so difficult to get your music out for the church to use through CCLI because, as they told me, if it wasn't that some of my songs have been published by major publishers like LifeWay and a few others along the way, they wouldn't be on there. Like, they wouldn't even have made it to it. And they told me, they said, your song has to be reported by at least 5 churches that are not your own church in order for that song— in order for us to allow you the privilege of putting sheet music on our website to be shared with the church. So as you know, if you go to like SongSelect's website, so many songs just have lyrics only, or they might have an audio track, but But the thing that works against people who actually are trying to write for the church, in my opinion, is like, how are you supposed to get this song out if this seems to be the main means that churches are using to find and get, hopefully, worship songs at a— you know, on some level it's an affordable thing if you pay into that membership for the year. It's more affordable to just print the music off from their site than to like go and buy every single song from every single publisher. So on that end, that's the idea behind it. But to me, as I asked them, I said, so how is the song supposed to be used by them though if you're not allowing me a way through almost the only service available to provide, you know, and easily access to congregations? If you won't allow me to put the music up until 5 churches use it, how are those 5 churches supposed to use it if they can't get a hold of the music? Uh, you know, so it's this thing that kind of like It works for some artists if they're well known enough, but it works against them unless you're kind of a celebrity in some ways. And I don't know if that makes sense at all, but to me that's part of the real frustration.

In 2010 or 2011, I was the worship pastor— I was the worship coordinator at Olivet Nazarene University, which is a relatively large evangelical Christian school, about 2,500, 2,600 undergraduate students. And I had written a song that we were singing in chapel that was very user-friendly. People were enjoying it, and different churches around the region were hearing about it, using it at youth events, this type of thing. So I get people, you know, they're calling me, "Hey, we want the chords for this song," you know, you know. And so somebody encouraged me, you know, to put it on CCLI. So I myself, you know, as a songwriter, I never really investigated the process. So I go to look, you know, look in, and I'm having some dialogue, and this exact thing, you know, you have to, you know, have to have other churches that are using it, reporting it. I'm like, Well, I can tell you 10 churches right now that are singing this song. I mean, I don't know how, but it's not, but it's, I'm calling you to try to figure out how to get the song on your website so that they can report that they're doing it.

Right.

Right, and that was just where the conversation ends because the fact of the matter is I'm some little guy in a small town in Illinois trying to, I don't have anybody's pocket pushing, and this is my problem with the church is that We are supposed to— the church is supposed to be primarily a theological institution that lifts up the values of Jesus. So the marginalized, the poor, those are the people that if we're making Christian platforms, like there would be nothing more Christian than to make it easier for the little guys to be in collaboration with the big guys. But that is not what CCLI is. To your point, Rick, I mean, I'm convinced, I would love to see a spreadsheet of where the funds are going, but I'm convinced that the majority of money for CCLI is going to the rich lawyers that founded the institution and it's going to the bureaucracy of the— Honestly, I mean, I think it's just like the music industry in many senses. You sign a record deal. The artist isn't making a ton of money for the record deal, the record company is. The autocrats, the bureaucracy is making the money. And for whatever reason, we're okay with this kind of being what we're doing. The thing is, all of the churches have collaborated. And what's hilarious is the reason that we're doing it is because we're afraid of lawsuits, which is not Christian also at all. Like, how in the world do we have a Christian institution that is successful because they're threatening churches with lawsuits? I mean, this is insane, man. It's, it's almost satanic. And that may sound strong, but like, I mean, it's like, it's— we're so capitalist. I mean, it's, it's Dave Ramsey. He says, you know, a couple of weeks ago, it's not my fault if I push someone out of move out of my, one of my rental properties. It's the market that's making me do that. I mean, CCLA is saying the exact same thing. They're saying like we as Christians don't have agents to be in control of these things. Capitalism is what's running the show. And that's a problem, man. That's a problem that we don't even have the ability to take Christian responsibility. I realize I'm running— I'm running— I'm bulldozing this conversation. Jeremy, you should get in here.

And maybe, Jeremy, you could answer this for me. And it's both of you really, but it's something I came up against because I hadn't thought about it. When the pandemic hit and everything pretty much shut down all over for a time and we were broadcasting more than ever before. Now a lot of churches had already been doing that, but my church hadn't been like doing video broadcasting until in some ways it like forced us to get into doing that kind of thing. I wasn't sure like, and as far as I know, CCLI has not been litigious towards anybody ever in its past. I talked to somebody about it. I don't think they've ever sued a church ever. In their defense, I guess, to their credit, if that's a thing. But I was so hesitant to do like our normal worship stuff because I wasn't sure, like, again, what am I allowed to do right now? You know, here's our church for a month or whatever that was forced to not meet together, I wasn't sure what songs I could put up. Did you come across that, Jeremy? Like, was that part of your concern when you were like broadcasting out? Or I don't know what— to what extent churches in your area shut down or whatever, but just curious about that.

I think, um, you know, we don't do the songs anywhere close to the original, uh, recording. We don't sound anything like that. So I don't know that anybody's gonna be real upset that we're like, not— I mean, it's, it is definitely Paul DeNass style the way we do most of our stuff.

So I think, um, and what many of you listening don't know is that Jeremy himself is also a freak musician. Oh, he's somewhat, he's somewhat—

so I don't know that we would have gotten flagged. I don't know that I was ever worried that they were going to, you know, because I feel like the only way they could pick that up— nobody's sitting watching however many thousands of churches do their livestream, I felt like it had to be algorithm if they were gonna get flagged. We have gotten flagged for like pre-service music that like we play before that we have gotten warnings about that, that's canned music. So we've gone to just some generic like instrumental, no words, like it is terrible, but it's safe, I think. And so for our pre-service music. So yeah, I don't know. I mean, I was kind of concerned, but we had been doing Facebook Live, not real well, but we just kind of had it on for some of our shut-ins and for people that maybe were in Florida for the winter or whatever. And so we had been doing it before the pandemic. We just tried to up it a little bit, I guess. Once the pandemic started, make it a little bit better.

Hey, let me— I don't know if you guys can see this on your screen. Listeners, this won't matter as much to you, but I was just informed by Zoom that we have 8 minutes and 58 seconds left before this recording will end. So if we get cut off, I might have to just put up a second feed and come back to you guys in a minute. But, um, I, I wanted to talk too, if, if you had a second, any thoughts that you have as a way like, if you were the one in charge of reforming this type stuff, and you've already stated earlier, you know, that you think it should be free for the church, can you think of a better way to do this? I mean, some, some things just now, you know, are not going to change because of the reality of the situation we're in now, but technology is always changing. Any thoughts as to like a way that you could still kind of in some way helped to support songwriters. I see the real benefit of that. And then talking with Dave Clark one time, who's a mutual friend of you and me both, Jonathan, he had said, but you know, on the other hand, for some songwriters it became like the only way they could get money from any songs they were writing for the church. And it wasn't a matter of greed. It was just like, hey, wouldn't that be nice if they could have some support in that way if churches are using their songs? I just wonder if you have any thoughts of like, what's a way that the church could still benefit in a way from worship songs that we could share with each other, and yet still maybe people who are writing these songs not necessarily could have a goal of getting rich, but like it would still be a way of like, hey, we're acknowledging that this is a work. Like we pay our preachers to do sermons on Sundays and the sermon work that they do. And some people have a very special calling to write for the church. And in some ways, like, you know, we just expect them to do it for free, where we don't feel that way about any other office of the church necessarily. Most of us are paid employees. Just so I just wonder if there's any like ideas on the other end of that, like some helpful—

Yeah, I do.

I do have some ideas. I think the CCLI holds the keys in many senses because they have the biggest database. So I mean, so for me as a large church, you know, member, I'm paying hundreds of dollars, maybe even north of $1,000 every year for my CCLI license. And maybe it's $150 a month. So that's— we're talking a decent— we're talking, you know, $1,800. What's that, $1,800 a year to be able to sing songs? And I don't report. I, I don't care to. I think it's a sham system. Um, I— but, but the thing is, if CCLI— what CCLI could do is they could say, hey, Jonathan, here's a free access to our database. And on every song they could put, um, I could have my credit card information in there and they could say, you know, you know, here would be a suggested donation. And every time I print a song, they could say, would you, would you, they could just give me an option, would you donate 10 cents to this, to this artist? And the thing is, I would say absolutely, because I would know that it was going. And if they had like some check— some checks and balances. But the fact of the matter is, I know that I can pay $1,800 to them a year and they have no idea whose songs I'm using, and they don't care. They're not chasing me down. They're just a machine. Like, it's, it's really, it's really a nonsensical system. But like, there would be, there would be ways that they could get theirs, um, in the same way that a lot of other, um, crowdfunding sources do, you know. But then it would be a more— it would be more, um, There are so many things that they could do, but they're a big money organization who's not interested in doing the work. They just want money.

Any other responses from you, Jeremy? Any thoughts on that?

You know, I don't live in this space like as much as you two do, so I don't know that I have a whole lot of ideas. Um, I think that— I feel like that we have, um, I feel like Napster kind of started this, this idea of, of streaming things. Like, I feel like if, if people had, you know, that's me being a novice trying to throw something in here, but I feel like streaming's cut down as far as things, you know, stealing music, and that's always been a big deal just in the music industry in general. But as far as church goes, I think that I don't know that I have a whole lot of input how CCO— I mean, like I said, we pay for our license, but I don't think they're worried about a small church in Paulding what we're doing on a Sunday morning, if I'm just real honest. I don't think anybody wakes up and wonders or is concerned about what we're doing.

Yeah, that could very well be. It's an interesting conversation to have. Well, all right, I'm watching the clock tick down to 4 minutes here. So I'm almost certain we're going to have to start a second Zoom call in a second. So let me try to tell one CCLI story, if you don't mind, in the positive that worked for me in one way. Years ago, I was— I think both of you know my story around in this area anyway. Is pretty well known, I think, of— I went through a very painful, very hard divorce. It's been, you know, 15 years ago now, more than that probably. And part of my prayerful seeking was like, what am I supposed to do next? And I had some time with a counselor and he said, I think you're supposed to be doing like music in a way you have not pursued it before, like with songwriting and things. I know you've written in the past, but you're just kind of sitting on it and not putting it out there in the way you could. So he suggested start praying about what the next move is for you, you know, and, and it might be a thing where you step out on faith and just trust that God is going to provide in some way, you know, maybe it'll happen in a way you never have before. So I did, and I was here, I was a broken husk of a person as I described myself at that point. Not knowing exactly where God was leading and what he was doing. Like, the day after I had that conversation with him, for the first time ever, I got a check in the mail from CCLI, and it was like over $500. It was crazy. Like, somebody had started using my music somewhere from years before, and I don't know how it all worked out, but it was like, for me in that moment, it was this thing that was like, what on earth? And by the way, like, I was at a point where I was like borrowing bread from neighbors and friends because I didn't have money. Like, it was just like, I was almost like that poor at that point. And I remember having that actual conversation with friends. Could I, you might have to take a couple pieces of bread home tonight. You know, it was just one of those places. And that was like a real crazy thing to me. I was like, and I've never had a check that large to this day again from CCLI at that point. It was one of those like God moments in the story. So when I talk about this, I almost wanna talk about the both sides of it too. Like, we also have to acknowledge God can and will use things that we may not necessarily think are the greatest tools in the arsenal, so to speak. But for me at that time, it was like the heavens opened and God said, you need to be doing something more with your writing in that way, and here's just a little gesture, you know, to show you I'm gonna help you and support you in that time. I don't know what to do with that other than say thank you, Lord, for those blessings where I don't see them. I still don't want to say like, you know, CCLI is the way and it has to be that way. I just wanted to point out on the same way, on that end of things, it's a time where God used it to come through for somebody who really needed it, you know, in that help and in that moment. And I don't know how far-reaching those stories are either, but I'm grateful for time, you know, that it did help in a way. And I think it can be a service that could be used to so much better end than it probably is being used right now. And I agree with you on both of those things. So anyway, that's just a personal story of like the other side of it that I've experienced in my life. Most of the times if I get royalties from CCL, it's you know, not anything compared to that, which is ironic now because I actually have a couple songs that are known and I don't get hardly any royalties from those. But the ones at the time where I was still really an unknown, you know, like writer, it was kind of interesting to have, um, that happen.

So this is where I think when I was listening to Rich Mullins, because I think the, the bigger, once again beyond music and CCM industry of our conversation, was Jonathan started a podcast asking if I had heard of any Catholic theologians and how you don't hear a whole lot about— we don't know a whole lot of them, but we do know a lot of pop, um, Christian, uh, authors and, and writers in the church. And I think what bugs me about the whole industry potentially is if as the church we are to think theologically about the church church, and we are to think theologically about what we're calling people to, and heaven on earth, and on earth as it is in heaven. I feel like a lot of the stuff they're putting out doesn't push us to that end, but they know that this stuff is going to get a lot of clicks or a lot of prints or a lot of whatever. And it feels like there's a shallowness to the music they're putting out that doesn't actually call us to be the church or to be the kingdom. Which is why when we recorded last week, Rick, you were actually in my mind because as Jonathan said, you're not doing that. Like, and I think in our tweets back and forth, I said you remind me a lot of Rich Mullins where Rich was putting out these just lyrics that were just soaked with meaning about a deeper life. And his life was about being authentic and about what does it really mean to be the hands and feet of Jesus. And so I feel like, like I get on CCLA all the time and there's 5 new songs that I don't like, where did these come from? And there's really 5 churches printing these and the lyrics, I'm not trying to knock them, but I feel like they are like this, maybe more, um, this is gonna sound, this may be bold, like Jonathan said earlier, but erotic in nature. Like they, they tend to be more, um, based on sensuality and, and what does this make me feel rather than what is this calling me to. So how do we— you both are in Catholic universities right now, um, doing studies, and so I just— interesting to me that, that, listen, the whole money thing, like I said, I don't have a whole lot of input into that, but I feel like we're singing a lot of songs and people are more— they feel good when you sing a song that's on the radio because it's something that gives them that ministers to them throughout the week. But what— how do we do a better job of singing things and having formational things in our time together that are pushing us to live for the kingdom and what that looks like, rather than just singing songs because that's what we do in church and we just need to have some songs that we could sing? So we're going to sing whatever the most popular song is. Is that a question? Is that a good question? I don't know.

Well, Well, first I want to thank you for the Rich Mullins comparison. It's probably because of my chain smoking and how much I swear. I imagine that's what reminds you of— sorry, my little, my little Rich Mullins joke there. But yeah, you know, it's interesting. I don't know that I have a really good answer for that question, but I think on some level, if you're— you will find what you're looking for. And maybe that speaks to beyond like this CCLI conversation and things that become accessible. It's very interesting to me the things that will last in the church and that God will use. And CCLI is a thing that we're using now. Who knows how long that's going to be the standard or what's going to happen. But long before CCLI came about, you know, there was this writer named Charles Wesley who wrote these songs that had more staying power than, you know, a CCLI writer could ever dream of. And I don't think it was necessarily because Wesley had in mind like, I'm going to write the next hit, you know, that wouldn't have even been a category for the church at that time. But it's interesting to me that it just seems like there are some songs that God just has his hand on. And I don't know how to describe it other than, like, they last. They have this amazing power that we will use them again and again. Think of "And Can It Be" and all the ways that that can be sung in so many different locations. I mean, I've sung that in Africa. I've sung it in all kinds of different churches, large and small. I've sung it as a rock song. I've sung it as an old hymn. Sung it to an organ. It's just one of those things that kind of transcends, maybe, you know, because it was written for this purpose and there's such depth to it. Some people will never use a song like "And Can It Be" because it's not trending in the top 100 on CCLI at the time. And yet that song will outlast CCLI, you know, and there are a number of people who will seek that out and want something richer and deeper that are not satisfied for just surface-level things. There's— speaking of the sensual thing, sorry, I'm trying not to filibuster here because I want to hear from Jonathan too, both you guys. But there's this— I never saw it, but one of my friends tells me about this episode of South Park, since we're speaking of religious and godly programs. There's an episode where I guess some of the South Park characters form a band and they get signed on at like a Christian festival or something, and all of the songs are very like sensuous, but they sound so much like modern CCM music that like you can't tell. Like everything is just substituted for, you know, boyfriend-girlfriend, you know, music, and some of it's pretty crass, but you hear it and you go like, oh yeah, that could actually work. Some of the lyrics that they tell because, you know, and I'm not even going to get into what they were now. But it was, it was a fascinating critique from what my friend was telling me about, like, like they get it, they see this, that, you know, people who aren't even affiliated with the church are looking on and going, we can see what you're doing there. And it's not, you know, like, we do it better than you, you know. So stop trying to be an entertainment-minded business and kind of do what you're focused on. So anyway, I don't know if that's a good answer to your question, but I think at some level the songs that are worth keeping are going to rise to our attention in some way, whether it's CCLI or not. I think of just a few years ago, I want to say it was 5 years ago, "Is He Worthy" by Andrew Peterson. Came out, you know, a song that— I mean, it was just this little song on an album. Yes, Andrew's on a record label, but I know from conversations I've had with him in person, like, his whole thing was, I'm never going to do a worship song or a worship album unless I feel like it's something that can just benefit the church, you know, and that I don't plan on getting rich with it. It's just going to be a thing. So that little song was like the final track on a release that he did that was a 3-part, or maybe it was a 2-part, Lent and Easter album thing that he did. And who would have thought? I remember having him on my podcast and talking to him about it, and it was not even a blip on anybody's radar, you know? And that song, just really a pretty simple music video. It was beautiful, but it was just him at a piano and it had a choir in it in this little church. I think it was in that little Anglican church in Nashville. Something resonated all over the church with that song before it was even a thing that got picked up by Chris Tomlin or Shane and Shane or any of the other many artists that started recording that song, um, because it just started moving in people's hearts. God was using it in a way. And, and to me it's interesting as like a case of like, I wonder if that's going to be another one of those 'And Can It Be' type songs, you know, that it got popular but that wasn't the point of its popularity in the first place. It was something that, that just came to be used, and it— and I'm sure at this point he has made a lot of money off of it, but that wasn't the point behind it in the first place. Does that make any sense?

Well, I think the song's theological and biblical.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

It calls you to a different understanding of who God is, how he interacts with the world. And where this whole thing is heading, which I think is why I feel like it resonates with so many people, because I think people are longing for that, longing for that.

Yeah, for sure. Any, any thoughts you have, Jonathan?

Well, I do, I do love, uh, Andrew Peterson's work, and, uh, I—

that song is—

I've sung it several times, and I, I really appreciate it. The thing is, I mean, he's not he's not a little nobody. I mean, he's still— he's, in my opinion, he's the coolest Christian artist in Nashville. Um, there are people— I mean, there are people that would disagree with me, but people understand Andrew Peterson to be, you know, kind of a— he, he road-dogged it for a long time. I mean, he, you know, I think although the point you're making is somewhat valid about Songs Rising to the Top, like, he is— he's a— he would be what I would— he would be a part of the bourgeoisie of Christian music in my personal opinion, just because like, um, uh, I mean, I, I and the people that I— the musicians that I spend time with, we write songs, we're on iTunes, this type of thing. And no one is— no one is going to listen to my music that is— that is in— yeah, Jeremy's raising his hand. He's like, I listen to Mike. We listen to your music. No, that's very— but like Nobody who actually has— we live in it. The Church of Jesus Christ in North America right now is obsessed with what is cool. And the people who are deemed cool are the ones who make the decisions of what— and I would argue that Andrew Peterson is cool. I mean, he just is. Like, he's theological, he's a great dad, he has integrity. He's cool for all the right reasons. I have nothing against Andrew Peterson, but he's not at First Church of the Nazarene in Lima, Ohio. I mean, he's a massive artist who has sold hundreds of thousands of albums over the course of his career. And he knows how to get his song on PCLI. I mean, I would just You know, I would argue that. And Chris Tomlin's going to pick up his song because they live in the same town. Well, they don't live in the same— uh, Chris Tomlin's in what, Atlanta, right? But they're, they're very, they're very networked, you know. And, you know, Andrew Peterson's in with the Gettys, you know. I mean, there, there's a lot of— there is a bourgeoisie of— and, and there are great people in that club, but Christian, Christian music is, um, is monopolized by a club right now, and it's not open source.

Well, and I hear that. I want to say at the same time though, just knowing Andrew, like there were times not too long ago where I would show up at, you know, a little coffee house where he was playing. And again, I think it's a testament— while he is there now, it hasn't been that long ago that he was just, you know, a struggling artist too. And even if you knew the name Andrew Peterson, It wasn't like a well-known name. And it was because of the quality of his writing and because of the way the church responded to it that I think the other things caught on. Like even the Gettys, I know they wouldn't give him the time of day until Is He Worthy came out and it became such a huge thing around them. Matter of fact, there was— well, I won't tell the story, but I remember sitting on Andrew's couch with him talking about this. And there was like this really insulting thing that was done to him. By, you know, people in that world. And he was like, I can't believe, like, you, you know, you basically want me to write this song for you and you're gonna put your name on it. And, and it was just like, you know, he said, I'm not— that's not the purpose of why we're doing this thing. So I, I hear you on both levels, but I wonder if also with Andrew, like, there's— you, you said it, he's cool, but he's cool for the right reasons. Like, you know, he, he came to this place now where he is making a good living, but for a long time that wasn't the case, and there was part of this like community collective around him. So I don't know what to do with all that exactly, you know. There's a sense in which like Rick Lee James kind of did the same thing. He kind of rose and all of his music rose. A lot of people don't know about Rick was that all of his money went into this private trust, and he only made just whatever the average American would make, you know, per year. And still to this day that that's where the money from these royalties go, and it goes to different ministries around the world. So I think that's an interesting thing to think about too, of like what we do with what we have, you know, and those things that are provided. Um, but yeah, you want to respond, I can see.

So me?

Yeah, you looked like you were getting ready to say something.

I would love it if someone like Andrew Peterson would say, um, no, you can't have this song, and no, I'm not going to put it on CCLI. Yeah, that would be amazing. But for whatever reason, Maverick City, Elevation Worship, Andrew Peterson, they're all in bed with CCLI. And, um, I, I, if you want, I don't know that I'm, I, I don't know that I'm ever going to write a song that's going to be popular or do anything for the church, but I do want to say it won't be on CCLI. I'm just telling you, like, I don't, I, I have no, I have no desire to be a part of that kind of capitalist system. I think there are— I just think that there are other ways. And I think that we need to figure out— unless me being a part of CCLI would mean that people would open the door to non-members, non-paying members, people would have access to the riches that are a part of that database.

Yeah. That's a really interesting thing. That would be an interesting conversation to have. With some of the people that I talk to on occasion from those kinds of organizations, because I know it's something that I think that some of them struggle with too. And it's one thing, it's just such a hard thing in the midst of all that. Well, hey, I want to be conscious of both of your time. So this is a great conversation and it's one that needs to keep happening. I wonder if you guys would indulge me to allow you, to allow me to share one Rich Mullins story before we go. That might kind of encapsulate all this together. Um, a few years ago, just before I had released one of Rich's songs, um, Thunder, there was a—

which is definitely worth listening to—

that's right. Just before that, that, that, there was a little thing at a bookstore in Nashville that I was invited to come and be a part of, and there was a release of a book about Rich Mullins. Andrew Greer wrote it and compiled it with a lot of different people who knew Rich. And at the book release party that night, I think it was Cindy Morgan who was there, and she said she remembers back to a time because she knew Rich a little bit, and she remembers a devil word ceremony that she was a part of with him. And they brought like basically all of the artists out together to sing "Awesome God." That was the time period it was when "Our God Is an Awesome God" was like the biggest song ever on radio and stuff. And I think it was at the Ryman Auditorium in Nashville where she said this happened. And she said, you know, all these big celebrities, so to speak, of the CCM world were there as his choir, you know, like to sing. And here comes Rich not dressed up at all. He's in a t-shirt, he doesn't have shoes on. He walks in, he looks like he hasn't had a bath in a few days, and he walks up and sits at the piano and he just starts playing this song. I don't even think there was a band with it. And so they started singing it, and the verses— if you haven't checked out the verses of "Awesome God" in a while, that's actually the meat of the song, you know, and they're kind of tough lyrics. When you, when you read them, they're not very church-friendly, honestly.

The Lord wasn't joking when he kicked him out of Eden.

Yeah, it wasn't for no reason that he said his butt, you know. It's, it's, uh, he wasn't just putting on the ritz, you know, all that stuff. So they get to the end of the song, and Cindy said that the whole room just erupted, like it was this glorious, like, celebrity moment that in everybody's mind it was like, wow, this guy's amazing. And she said he stood up from the piano. I'm gonna get emotional talking about it.

Sorry.

She said he had this heartbroken look on his face, like he was crushed in that moment. And he just turned away and walked off stage, didn't say anything. And she said to her, in that moment, it was like he looked at all of us and said, you guys just You just missed it completely. Like, you missed what we were singing about right now. And he walked out the door and left, didn't say anything to anybody that night. And she said, it felt like we all had failed in our mission, like, in that moment. And Rich just, like, made it clear to us he was here to sing about and to this awesome God. And everybody there just went, "Isn't Rich awesome?" You know? And it overwhelms me sometimes when I think about that. Because it would be so easy, probably for most of us, to just go, "Thanks, thanks, praise, adoration, I love it, send it at me." And at that moment, with a simple gesture and a look of his face without saying anything else, it was like the whole room was kind of made to pause and think, "What are we doing here?" You know, and I don't know if that sums up our conversation or not, but to me it hits on what I think the point of all this and who we're writing looking for and what it should be directed at comes to, like, all of this should be for the praise and glory of God, for the, the upbuilding of his kingdom, for helping his people become disciples. And I think that's all of our hearts. I think that's what I'm hearing from you guys today as we come together and talk about this idea of how could we maybe do this better in some ways, how can we serve the church more. So Well, with that, I know you guys are busy and Jonathan, you've got a meeting. Thank you so much for spending some time with me today. I have really appreciated this conversation.

Yeah, thanks, Rick.

I want to tell you how much I love both of you and appreciate it. If any of you that are listening heard anything you didn't like or that you loved, whatever, just send me a tweet. I get evil tweets all the time, so that's okay. But guys, As I say to my guests every week, and I know this is a crossover show, but for my portion of the show, thank you for being some of the Voices in My Head this week.

Thanks, Rick.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, follow my blog, and You can even schedule me for a concert or a speaking engagement. Better yet, even a book signing in your neighborhood. You can find all that and more at rickleejames.com. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, the more visible this podcast will be online. And now for the benediction. May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. God bless you, and thank you for listening to Voices in My Head.