Voices In My Head Podcast Episode #271: Build Your Multicultural Ministry Super Power with Nikki Ler

Have you ever thought to yourself, man, I'd like to host my own podcast? Well, guess what? You can go to podbean.com/voices and get everything you need to create, manage, and promote your podcast. I use Podbean every week for Voices in My Head. There's easy uploading and publishing tools, stunning templates, custom domains, social and promotional tools, an embeddable podcast player, monetization tools, and more. It is your all-in-one podcasting solution. With Podbean, you can create professional podcasts in minutes without any programming knowledge. Best of all, everything is mobile ready right from the start. So go to podbean.com/voices, and when you sign up, use the code "voices" and you'll get a sizable discount. Podbean, for your home podcasting. Thank you for listening to Voices in My Head. Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer-songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is your source for discussions on music, literature, movies, pop culture, theology, and more. Now sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of the Voices in My Head podcast. And don't forget to let the voices in your head be heard by following me on Twitter @RickLeeJames and sharing your thoughts about today's show. Welcome back to the Voices in My Head podcast. Today my guest is Nikki Lerner. Nikki is an artist, a teacher, a speaker, an author, and a culture coach. Culture coach? Let me try that over again. Oh man, we're just among friends here.

I love it.

You know, I've been working all day here at church and, and you can't expect me to read correctly. So let's try that one more time.

You got it.

My guest today is Nikki Lerner. Nikki is an artist, a teacher, a speaker, an author, and a culture coach helping others engage one another relationally and across culture lines. Her passion is to see people come to an understanding of one another through music and conversation. And learn to remain human with each other. Today we're going to discuss the Multicultural Worship Leaders Network 2018 conference, which will be happening in Abingdon, Maryland this November 1st and 2nd. So Nikki, welcome to the Voices in My Head podcast.

Hey Rick, thanks so much.

I'm so glad you get to be one of the voices in my head this week. I've been a fan of yours for a while, and I was trying to think back of the chronology of where we first met and how we've been running into each other at different events. And I think the first time was in Washington, D.C. last year when the National Worship Leader Conference was happening.

Yes.

And then I ran into you again, uh, metaphorically, not literally ran into you, um, at Cedarville University for the Worship 424 conference with Paul Balazs.

Yes.

And you were singing with him this past year, and that was great. And then this, just a few weeks ago in Nashville, at my old stomping grounds at Trebek Nazarene University, at the National Worship Leader Conference there, and met you and, and, and your husband actually this time. Yes, cool to get to meet him. And so we have been trying to connect for this podcast for some time, and it just finally worked out today.

I'm so glad.

Yeah, me too. So, um, I'm really excited about the topic today, and a lot of our listeners, I know, are going to be excited about it too because we have actually dealt with this on the show before, the importance of multicultural ministry and the importance of really stretching ourselves outside of our own boundaries. And this conference that you put on, it sounds wonderful, and I received an invite from you to be a part of it this year in November on the 1st and 2nd, and unfortunately I'm already tied up on those dates But I was so excited when you said you would love to come and talk a bit about this conference and what it can offer, because I think it's something that a lot of my listeners are going to be very passionate about and would love to learn more about. So let's talk about the Multicultural Worship Leaders Network Conference. And let me ask with the first question, who should attend this?

Mm, that's a great question. Well, my response is everyone should attend this, of course.

Everybody.

That's great. I know, that's a nice size, right?

Right. Now, and when I ask about that, I mean, is it because it is a worship leader conference, is it specific to only people who lead worship, or do you encourage people that do other functions as well?

We believe that this conference is really for an entire team that works at a church that is on staff or on volunteer ministry, or even people— for people who run an organization that is faith-based, um, to come to this conference together. We've designed it, uh, from a worship-leading perspective, so you will definitely hear music and prayer and see those kinds of things modeled from a diverse perspective. However, the, the topic of multicultural ministry spans outside of your local worship or music ministries or creative ministries. Oftentimes, when churches start here, the burden usually falls to your creative ministries, which is another topic, but really being able to embrace this as a church and embrace it as a church team is very important. So in these days that we face and really have always had, but particularly in our country, this is the time for people to be equipped and to learn and to get ready to minister across cultures.

Well, and you mentioned in these days, and it's, you know, things that are with us don't go away, but sometimes there's certain times in a culture that things seem to be brought more to light that at times we feel like maybe we had left behind. And I think there is a real challenge among different cultures trying to speak to each other. And I'm curious, this, that in your work that you've done and even in the work getting ready for conferences like this, what do you find some of the most common challenges are that you've seen, particularly that churches are facing when dealing with multicultural ministry?

Mm-hmm. That's a great question. There are several. One of the first things is the challenge for churches is they don't always know that this is a skill and an art to be learned. I think that churches overall, for a lot of things, think like, "Oh, we know how to do this," you know, particularly when it comes to ministering to people in general, like we're in the people business, right? Like it's what we do. So we can take our principles, even our church principles that we have learned over the years from racially mono or monocultural conferences or books or training materials and then take those principles and try to fit them within a multicultural context. That just doesn't always work. One of the first challenges is letting the church know that it needs it and also that it's God's idea, it's not just a good idea. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's a good idea. Let's just take Jesus and church out of it. It's a good idea. But that this is actually God's idea, and actually the model that we've been given in scripture, it's the only model we've been given in scripture, is of a diverse community. So the first challenge is that, just helping a mostly segregated church body to realize its need to learn. And oftentimes that can be a little more challenging in majority cultures than minority cultures. Yeah. So that's definitely a challenge. And then I think the second biggest challenge is, you know, American culture, we love analytics and results and numbers and things like that. And the thing is, is that this particular work is so people-focused, it's so relationship-based that oftentimes you can't always tell how you're doing because you can't define it with a number. Because as soon as you start putting numbers and things like that on it, you get dangerously into the quota conversation, which shouldn't really be had with this type of work. But those are, those are the two biggest challenges. I mean, there are a lot, but those are the two big ones.

Well, I'm glad you said that because I, I think we are often hindered by the expectation of the numbers, and relationally is, is really the way that we build strong, lasting ministries in, in any aspect of ministry. I have so many things that come to mind with just what you have just told us right now. And I was trying to think of the, the man's name, and I, I just can't right now. But, um, I saw him on— I want to say it was the show 60 Minutes, I think, on a Sunday night. And he formerly was a part of a really extreme, extreme, extreme right, like, white, uh, white hate group. And he had gotten into it when he was in high school. He started being in, like, punk bands, and they wrote songs that were basically about, you know, white purity, and it was hatred to any other race. And, um, and he's out of that now, and he actually has sort of made it his mission to pull people out of that and to build relationships and help people find their way out of that kind of hatred. And I don't think he ever called it a ministry, but it certainly is. And when he was talking about all that, something you said and something that he said really rang true, uh, because told his own story, and his story was he, he didn't learn how to hate growing up from his parents or things like that. He learned it from people who took him in when everybody else was ignoring him. And he was in high school, and there was this group that cared enough to reach out to him, and they happened to be the neo-Nazi kids, you know. And, uh, for him, they were the ones that became a family for him. They were the ones that became so relational as you're talking about. And you know, you want to talk about a group that's probably not growing by leaps and bounds, but it must be growing consistently. Groups like that must be growing consistently, you know, and it's because of the relationships that are there. And I think how much more when you talked about that with the gospel and coming to people relationally, it may not be about, you know, 6,000 people are going to come this week or whatever. It may be about the one-on-one and what you do And yet sometimes those one-on-one conversations, it's almost like speaking a different language. Sometimes it literally is speaking another language.

Yes, it really is. I like to describe it these days as, you know, we're all right now living in America, but we are not all speaking English. It's almost like we are, you know, like if we went to Korea. You and I went to Korea on a missions trip, and we decided to start speaking Japanese in Korea. And we didn't understand why people didn't understand us, because our thinking was, well, they're Asian. You know, it's— but what's happening right now in our country, and even particularly in the church, is that we live under this language of we're all American. Right? Which is true. We're all Americans. But because of how we've been socialized, depending on even culturally, particularly between white Americans and Black Americans, you know, how we've been brought up, potentially those kinds of things, oftentimes we are literally speaking different languages to each other. And where we get confused is why aren't we understanding one another? Yeah, but the reality is, for the church, is I believe, uh, with the idea of, again, intentional multicultural ministry, that, um, you know, anytime you're gonna be on mission to anyone, the first thing that you need to do is learn the language. You know, we wouldn't go to Chile on a missions trip and start speaking English and require everyone to speak English. There would be a respect for the language of the people we're trying to reach. I think sometimes for the American Christian church, we don't view our homeland like a mission field. Because, you know, the Bible says we are citizens of heaven, right? Like, that's actually what we're citizens of. But I think if we cling too tightly to even where we live in the United States, our American-ness can become before our identity in Christ. And I think oftentimes that's where we can get tripped up.

Yeah, no, you're, you're so correct. And, you know, I, I think it's interesting too that a lot over the past couple of years I've had several opportunities to lead or be part of different worship services where it's been very multicultural. And, you know, in, in my background and in my life growing up, I just didn't experience it that often. But it's a new thing for me, and it's a beautiful thing to learn about the richness of worship in that context of where we'll sing a verse in English, and then we switch and we sing a verse in Spanish, and then we sing in another language after that. And there's something about the Spirit of God helping us transcend those barriers. Even at times when I'm not sure even the words that I'm singing for the benefit of my brothers and sisters, I'm singing it with them, and I'm struggling through it with them, and they're struggling through it with me when we're singing it in English. But there's always been, in every setting I've been in where we've done that, there's been something really beautiful that has happened. And it's made me long more and more for a less— I guess for a worship back home that is more like that, I guess is what I'm trying to say. Because it feels more like heaven to me. There really is this biblical precedent that you've already talked about today, that it's God's idea. We see it so beautifully depicted in worship books like Revelation. We see all of these tribes and nations and tongues coming together before the Lord, and they are singing together in worship and praise and repentance and laying out before God. There is just a richness there that I just do not think we have, for better or for worse, when we are all one type of people.

Yes, and I agree with you. I believe that industry is very, very powerful over the local church here in the United States. And, you know, the challenge for all of us is we won't see a multicultural worship experience sort of highlighted or promoted in industry only because, you know, at least right now it's not sexy or the visual of it will be a draw, but not true, you know, something that's truly multicultural. For instance, you know, we like to say that in our training that, you know, there's a difference between being multicolored and multicultural. When you're multicolored, it usually means that you have a bunch of different types of people who are all assimilating into one culture. When you're multicultural, it's kind of what you were talking about, you know, when you've been part of a worship experience where, you know, you might might be singing in English and then singing in Spanish and then singing in Amharic or in Swahili. That has an expression to it that says to a community of faith, we know you're here, we see you, and this is your home too, rather than, you know, this is, this is how worship's going to be because this is what God blesses, and then you assimilate into this. And that's from a cultural standpoint. And The hardest part, honestly, Rick, I think for a lot of majority culture churches in the United States is the biggest challenge for majority, and I'll say white American churches in the United States is that most white people I talk to don't think that they're a culture group.

Right.

Yeah, you're exactly right. Right? Like, I mean, you know, a lot of people I ask and I'll say, you know, how many of you feel like, you know, you're, you know, you have your own ethnic identity. And most white people say, well, I've never, I've never thought about that. Right. I've never considered that, you know, most people can identify with being an American more than anything else. But the thing is, is that the reason being is when you're the majority culture, you see culture and the world as normal.

Yeah.

Where everyone else who is not an ethnic majority sees the world as cultural. And so, and if you're in the majority culture, until you can see that, that, that, you know, you've had the advantage of having your world just be normal because it's been your cultural norm, that most non-majority people in the United States, we have to learn white American culture. Like, it's a required course for us if we want to get a job and, you know, be able to live and breathe in function in the world, you got to know the language, you got to know the culture, you got to know how things work. And really, even for your listeners, you know, if that's a hard concept to get, I think all of us at some point have been in a situation where we know what that feels like, right? So maybe you're a female and you know how that feels sometimes being in a male majority space, right? Or Or if you're in a, you know, you're in Mexico, but you don't know Spanish, right? And you know what it feels like to be that cultural minority. That's what a lot of people in the United States now have just feel like all the time. So, you know, one of the things I'll hear oftentimes is in some of these, you know, we host kind of safe conversations about race because that doesn't exist a whole lot. Yeah, you're right. Particularly for white people. So we host some of those conversations, and, you know, one of the large things is, you know, just coming to the realization that there is so much to learn, and trying to see it through the eyes of someone else is one of the most powerful things, because then you start to see, you know, in our faith communities, your brothers and sisters in Christ in a very different light. So now, you know, Rick, if you're having, you know, dinner once a week, you know, family dinner once a week with your African American close friend, or your, you know, your Korean close friend, now when something happens in our world, it's not those people.

Yeah.

Like, you're like, no, that those are my people. And so my desire for the church is to have this proactive movement, finally, in our history of reconciliation, not just social justice, but both racial reconciliation that says, I want you to understand me, I want to understand you. And let's see how we walk together to actually see on earth as it is in heaven. We actually can see every tribe, every tongue, every language come together in our lifetime.

Well, you know, it's interesting just to hear you talk about that because, you know, I'm a person that generally, you know, I'm in the majority on all kinds of things, and I've had to come to realize that in my life. I'm white. I'm actually so white I could stand next to a white wall and you wouldn't see me, just about, you know.

My husband says the same thing.

I get sunburnt a lot, you know. But I also, you know, I'm male, I'm middle class, I've got all these things that are really in favor of me in this society. And it was sometime, I want to say it was maybe the week of President Trump's inauguration, I was able to go and hear the now late James Cone speak, who has written many wonderful books, but his final book, sort of his swan song, was a book called The Cross and the Lynching Tree. And at Xavier University here in Cincinnati, just down the road not too far from me, I went and I sat in a room with a few black friends and the majority of the room were people who were not white. I thought to myself, you know, this is one of the first times in my life that I've been in a room like this where I have been the minority. There were several hundred people there And I thought it's, it's good for me that I need to have more experiences like this because it helps me to see again. And, and, and the things that I could feel from the people in that room were so different than things that people like me were probably feeling in that moment. You know, I wasn't feeling unsafe because I was, I was a white guy in the middle of Trump's America now, you know. And for them it was a very different feeling, and especially in Cincinnati where race tensions have been a problem for some time. And in all that, what I was— what I'm actually leading up to is I think the church has a really beautiful opportunity if we will take advantage of it in this time. Because one wonderful thing that the gospel calls us to is the gospel tells us that we're all on equal ground, and the gospel actually calls us to something beyond each of us. And to be transformed and to be renewed. And so, yeah, red and yellow, black and white, all of us actually have to find our new identity in Christ and learn together what it means to live out the gospel in this world together. And, and it's something that all of us have a learning curve on, you know. Yeah, it's something that all of us have to be changed on, and all of us have to be transformed. And I think in this country, at least in a lot of our wider churches, we have to be people who learn how to stretch ourselves and to be conformed in our faith in the way that we conform ourselves to some of the other cultures at times. So I love the idea of a conference like this. I have to say, I haven't heard of too many conferences like this, and I think it's such a cool idea, and it's so needed.

Yeah, well, I'll tell you this, Rick. It is— I always say building a multicultural church is the slowest way to grow a church. Yeah. Holding a multicultural church conference is the slowest way to have a gigantic conference. But, you know, the thing is, though, that you're talking about the church, that the church cannot continue as business as usual on this issue. Like you said, and not from a shaming standpoint, but from the idea that we have Jesus, who is the great unifier, who lives inside of us, like, at all times. And so if people of faith could remember that God has actually given us everything we need to take the next step in this, like, if we could remember what it is that we actually hold, That's what propels us forward. We cannot look at the gospel, if we are Bible-believing churches, anymore without seeing through the lens of race and diversity. I mean, one of the most key passages of scripture is Jesus in John chapter 17. He's in the garden, right? He prays for himself. He prays for his, you know, his 12, and then he prays for us. And what he says is, is that this is how the world will know that I've come for them, is when there is unity. As a church, how we have to read those words of Jesus for what they are. And so to look at our churches that are still in 2018 extremely segregated along racial lines, Then to read scripture from what Jesus says in John 17, to see our model, our only model of New Testament worship in Revelation 7, the church needs to have the courage to poke it and say, "If this is what Jesus has said, then how in the world did we end up the way that we are?" Most of it, it's human nature, right? People tend to flock together, and it's not just the white church. It's the African American church, it's the Hispanic church, it's everybody. But I'll tell you this, the church that my husband and I go to, we've been there almost 20 years. It's called Bridgeway Community Church. That's where I lead the worship ministry there. When we were engaged, I'm African American, my husband is white. We were just trying to find a church, Rick, where we walked in and people didn't stare at us. So, you know, for a couple like us, oftentimes you can feel like you're not black enough for the black church, you're too black for the white church, you can't go to the Hispanic church because you don't speak the language, and you can't go to the Asian church because you really stick out. So for us, a couple like us, and there are lots of couples like us, when we think about a kids program, if at that point, we don't have any kids, but at that point, we were like, you know, can we send our mocha-colored caramel babies to, you know, the children's ministry? Can they spend the morning learning about Jesus and not having to tell their peers what they are? Like, you know, those are the things that couples like us are looking for. We're looking for safety. We're looking for a visual representation of people like us, which is really important. And then, you know, couples like us are looking to say, do I have to check my culture at the door when I come into your church? Or can I be who I am and find my place culturally as well? And something that may be just a piece of information for some of your listeners, if they don't know, is you know, people always talk about, you know, why do we have to talk about race? Aren't we just the human race? You know, like those kinds of things, which sound amazing, by the way, they sound amazing, but we all live in the real world. But something for the majority culture to understand is for minority cultures in our country, there has never been a time that race has not been a part of the conversation. I mean, I'm 41 years old. And I grew up in a very kind of middle-class suburban, you know, very diverse environment. And from the time I was born to now, there's always talk of race. It's in every dinner meal that you have. It's in, you know, you talk to your uncles about being stopped by the police, you know, there's, there's all kinds of things. So That's why non-majority culture always talks about race. It's a part of who we are. And I don't think that needs to be a threat to our friends who are in majority culture. It just has to be something to be understood so that for majority culture, particularly white Americans in our, in our country, can then know how to have the conversation.

Right. Well, and you know, it's interesting. I know we're getting close to the end of our time, but there's so many things that come to my mind when you talk, and I love hearing a little bit more of your story here, and I love that you're sharing that from the viewpoint that a lot of people at my church and a lot of my listeners probably aren't even thinking of, you know, in those terms, because we're a part of the majority that has never had to deal with it and has never had to grapple with those things. And the interesting thing that— I don't know what it was. I remember talking to you a little bit about this at Cedarville, and we were talking about kind of the, the crazy world that we're living in, especially after Trump's election. And it's sort of like, you know, we're in a world that— it was very strange on some level, like right after the election, uh, this past time. It almost had a feeling like after 9/11, you know, like in, in the sense. And what I mean by that is there was such shock from so many people. All my friends who were minorities, every time I talked to them, it was like, uh, like, what happened? You know, like, I can't, I can't believe this happened. This, this hateful man is, is, you know, like, gonna be the leader of the world, you know. And the conversations really started to change, and there was a real like, need that I felt like the church needed to step in and address it. And far too often, the church has gone into the side of things, especially the evangelical church. It's become more part of the problem since then than it has helped, I think, because we've become less willing to engage in the conversation. We've become less willing to stretch ourselves. And unfortunately, you know, sort of the theme of Make America Great Again is is rooted in the idea of make America white again, you know, on some level.

And honestly, it's like, for whom and what time period are you thinking about?

Exactly.

Like, what part of America are you— would you like to make great? Because for some of us, we're like, no, this is actually the best time for us to live, and, and it's fine. It's interesting, you know, Rick, the, the whole election thing, um, you know, I, I remember waking up, and there was a part of me, honestly, that wasn't surprised. I honestly wouldn't— I mean, I figured it could go that way for a lot of different reasons, which is a whole nother podcast. But I remember staring out the window, and honestly, just as a Black person in America being my age, I was— my husband and I had an Ohio trip scheduled a couple of days after that to drive to Ohio. And it's the first time that I've thought to myself, are we going to be okay? And you know what I thought after that? I said, oh, well, my husband's driving, so we'll be fine. I mean, I have never had to think about that. And, you know, you could argue, right? Well, that's on you, or it's not really like that, or whatever. But at that point, it doesn't matter, right? There are people everywhere in our country that, you know, the day after felt very frightened, um, for just their existence in our country based on some of the things, uh, that have been said, you know, in past years politically. Probably feels some, some of the same as, you know, someone has a strong— if you feel strongly about, uh, you know, being pro-life or pro-whatever, right? Whatever your thing is, and the other guy wins, right? You kind of feel that grief. We, even as the church particular, we have become so diagnostic about, um, if I tell you how I'm feeling, I— it's almost, it's almost like this, like, Rick, if I said, hey man, um, I just got diagnosed with a terminal illness, and instead of you having compassion for me, you know what your response is? I'm gonna need to see your scans.

Mm.

This is the culture we live in. It's in the, I will decide whether or not I will hear you and have compassion for you once you prove it to me that you're in pain and that it's justified. And Jesus never did that. I mean, for people that don't know Jesus, okay, whatever. But for the faith community, yeah, we are called to something so much higher than what has been shown to us in our culture.

Yeah, and I, and I think too, I mean, I, I want to be careful because I know I have people of all backgrounds that listen to this show, and I'm not making a case for Republicans or Democrats.

Correct.

I'm making a case for the kingdom of God.

Yes.

And one thing that I, I always want to try to focus in on is, you know, we have an example of what the kingdom looks like and what kingdom people look like. We have many examples of that actually in scripture, but one thing that always comes to my mind is just look at the fruit of the Spirit. And this idea of, is, is something projecting Christ? If it is, it's going to have aspects of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, and goodness, and faithfulness, and gentleness, and self-control. Those are things that people of Christ exude, you know. And, and those are things because those are things that the Holy Spirit in us, I, I believe, begins to build in us and begins to work in us. And, and as we follow Christ, I think it becomes more and more. And, um, and, and just what you described, the idea that you woke up that morning and, I don't feel if I might be safe to drive to Ohio today, you know, after that. And, and something in that, you know, the peacefulness is driven away, you know, that can't be something of Christ, or the kindness that's there. And so it's something to me that I think We just need to, to be working on this more and more and more and, and become unrelenting about these conversations because they need to happen more. And they're so difficult, they're really hard to have. I mean, it's, it's not easy. I get, I get yelled at every time I mention it on anything social media.

Yeah.

And it's usually by people who look just like me who want to yell at me, you know. Um, but I'm always thinking like, no, it, it needs to happen, it needs become part of our dialogue and part of our worship, you know.

Yeah, and it has to be okay. Like, the idea to talk about it, it's really okay, particularly if you can find a space to talk about it in a meaningful, loving way with people that you do life with. This is actually one of the benefits of multicultural ministry in the multicultural church, is, you know, when we have these issues or we need to learn. When your space is diverse, you have brothers and sisters that you can go to for support and to learn. Um, you know, our multicultural church, we have Democrats and Republicans, you know, we've got white people, Black people, and people from 52 different nations. And, you know, we should, as people of Christ, we should be able to exist in a space where all of us think differently about a lot of different things. But just as in Revelation 7, we all center around Jesus. You know, we don't have to assimilate together. We can hold different views and different political systems and all of that and learn. We need all of it and learn from each other, you know.

And I think it's, it's very interesting too, because we can hold all those things, but Jesus has to be Lord over them. And when it comes down to, am I going to serve this system or am I going to serve Jesus, Jesus always must win. Absolutely. In those situations. And it can't be the other way around. I heard somebody say one time, "When you mix politics and religion, you get politics." And it's true. I think it's very true. And I think this is just such an important topic and important conversation. I'm upset that I can't be a part of this conference this year, but I want to thank you for letting me take some time to talk about it on my show. Before we go, I want to just tell everybody, you can find out more about the Multicultural Worship Leaders Network 2018 conference, which is going to be held November 1st and 2nd in Abingdon, Maryland. You can find out more about it through— actually, you can go to Nikki Lerner's website if you go to nikkilearner.com, N-I-K-K-I-L-E-R-N-E-R dot com. By the way, I'm gonna put that in the show notes so you can just click on it and go, but I'll also have a link where you can find out more about the conference. It looks like they've missed the early bird rate, which was June 8th. But the regular June 8th through August 31st, if you sign up, it's only $175. There's some group pricing on there. It really sounds like a great event, and I want to make it a priority for myself for the next year now that I know about it. Um, but thank you for taking time. What have I missed today? Is there anything that we need to focus on specifically? I mean, you're an amazing singer. I have seen you lead with people like Paul Balazs. I've listened to your albums, and you have an amazing voice. You're a great songwriter. I mean, we could talk forever about those things, but I, I feel like I've shortchanged you on that today.

Oh no.

But what have I missed? Is there anything that you'd like to share before we hang up on our conversation here?

Well, thank you again for the opportunity. And for those of your listeners, if, uh, if they hear anything, I would like them to hear, uh, that God has called us to this. This will be our finest hour because we will find the courage within ourselves to step out of what we've known and jump into these waters. And when we get our hands slapped, we will jump right back in. We will find safe people, and finally we will turn this thing around because Jesus is greater.

Amen. Well, Nikki Lerner, thank you for being one of the voices in my head this week.

Thank you, Rick.

Thank you for joining me here this week on the Voices in My Head podcast. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com, follow me on Twitter @RickLeeJames, like my artist page on Facebook at facebook.com/rickleejames, and keep up to date on what I'm writing at my author page on amazon.com. Make sure to follow my calendar on the website, and if you would like to have me come to your town to do a concert, a speaking engagement, or a book event, You can book me through my website by clicking on the link for Pare Booking Agency. That's P-A-R-E Booking. And finally, it would mean the world to me if you were to leave me a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, the more visible this podcast is on the internet. And now the benediction: May the God of peace, who raised Christ from the dead, strengthen your inner being for every good work And may the blessing of God Almighty, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit rest upon you and dwell within you this day and forevermore.

Amen.