Voices In My Head Podcast Episode 324: Lora Jones Shares How She Found Faith In The Midst of Tragedy

This episode of Voices in My Head is brought to you by Podbean. With Podbean, you can create professional podcasts in minutes without any programming knowledge. Best of all, everything is mobile ready right from the start. Visit podbean.com/voices to find out more. That's podbean.com/voices. This is Rick Lee James, and the music you are hearing is from my new album, Thunder. The title track, Thunder, is a never-before never-before-released song by the late Rich Mullins. There are also 12 other tracks made up of original music, hymns, and readings to guide the listener on a journey. You can buy Thunder today on clear vinyl and CD, or stream it on Spotify, Apple Music, and almost every other music streaming service. Thunder, hear it today at rickleejames.com. Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, a songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more with friends, colleagues, and sometimes just by myself. Now make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes. Or by tweeting at me @RickLeeJames on Twitter. And please join my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. By the way, in case you're interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the voices in my head. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of Voices in My Head.

Welcome back to the Voices in My Head podcast. As always, I'm your host, Rick Lee James, and I'm very grateful that you're here with us this week for this conversation. My guest today on Voices in My Head is author Laura Jones. Laura Jones' world was shattered on November 23rd, 2004. The night she survived but lost her husband and two children in a head-on collision, she secretly, desperately wished for death to claim her too. How could she go on alone? But a soft, faint voice sang to her in the midst of her deepest pain that night—the voice of God. In her new book, Song of a Wounded Heart: Regaining Hope and Trust After Personal Tragedy: The Incredible True Story of a Woman Who Lost Everything, Joan shares her remarkable journey from death to hope. And encourages readers to believe in the goodness of God despite their circumstances. There's much more to share in the time that we have together today, but Laura Jones, welcome to Voices in My Head. Thank you, Rick.

I really appreciate this opportunity to be with you this morning.

Well, I am so grateful to have you here, and again, I just want to say at the outset today, I appreciate so much your willingness to be able to come on and share some of your story, which I know is— it must be very difficult to tell. Even 15 years, or however many it's been now, all this time has passed, and, and our hearts still break, and our hearts are still wounded. And I love what, uh, what one of my favorite singer-songwriters, Andrew Peterson, says in one of his lyrics. He says, the aching may remain, but the breaking does not. And I think that summarizes a lot of our grief sometimes. So, so as we begin today, I, I just want to thank you again for being willing to sort of lay yourself bare with some of these painful things for the sake of bringing healing to others. And so thank you for being here today.

Thank you. That is exactly what I want.

Well, that's—

to be able to bring hope to other people.

Well, and I'm very glad for your willingness to do that, and I know your book is going to be a help to so many. So getting right into this today, in 2004, as I already mentioned, you, you had a profound loss through a tragic accident, losing your husband and your children. And I wonder if you could just briefly share your story and why you felt compared to share it— why you felt compelled, sorry, to share it in your new book, The Song of a Wounded Heart.

In 2004, my family and I lived in Miami, Oklahoma. It was— life was really good. It was exactly how I had dreamed and wanted it to become. And You know, life is not always easy, and it hadn't been easy for us either, but at this point in our life, it was the very best it had ever been. Our daughter was 14, an 8th grader in middle school, and Jaden was 11 and a 6th grader in middle school. My husband was a pastor of a church in Miami called Emmanuel Baptist Church. So it was Thanksgiving time, and we it was our tradition to go home to our families in Kansas over Thanksgiving because pastors can't be gone, you know, across the Christmas holiday. So we picked up the kids from school on Tuesday before Thanksgiving and we headed off a 400-mile trip across— basically across Kansas to visit. And We got to Wichita, Kansas, and had a late supper there with my husband's family. And then we got back in the car to head on to Liberal, which is our hometown for both of us. And I fell asleep in the front seat of the van expecting to get to my mother and father-in-law's about midnight. And but when I woke up, my entire life had changed. It took several hours before I knew and understood that my husband and my son had died on the highway, and my daughter would die just a few hours later during the night. And my heart died that night. My— I lived, but my heart died. And this book is my journey from death back to life. To hope again and faith again. And that's what I want to share with people, because I know I don't have the corner of the market on all the pain in the world. And there's, there's pain behind every door, and I want other people to find that same hope.

Certainly. And, and, you know, and I'm not one of those people— I don't like to compare people's pain and their grief because everybody has grief. Some of it seems maybe more extreme than others, but for every person, no matter what that grief is, it's a real grief and it's a real loss and it's something that we have to deal with. And that's why I so much appreciate you coming on to speak this way, because it's also something that people don't always like to talk about, or maybe we just don't know how to talk about it. And sometimes, rather than risking saying something wrong, we just don't say anything at all, I think, at times. Yes. And, and I, and I think I think that people like you who are so willing to share, it helps to open these conversations up to other people. I know that many of our listeners have experienced different griefs, and if they haven't, they will at some point experience it. That's true. It so helps to have someone walking on the journey with us. I'm intrigued as I've been reading through your bio a bit, and I'm looking forward to reading the full book myself when it releases. I just have to ask you quickly, a lot of people when they go through something like this, it seems like you also went through this, they seem to have maybe sort of a survivor's remorse, almost like they wish they could have died, you know, with the family as well, and the grief is so deep. Is that what you would describe that you were kind of feeling as well as you went through this?

Absolutely. Even before I understood how much loss I was going to face, even when they were taking me— let's see, at this point I knew that Jay, my husband, and Jayden, my son, were already gone. And they were taking me by ambulance from the little hospital where I had been taken to a trauma center where my daughter had been taken. And in that trip, they strapped me into the ambulance, you know, and, and they say, Mrs. Jones, I need you to stay awake. And I remember thinking, you mean if I go to sleep, I might not wake up? I think I'm gonna go to sleep, you know, just like— and I tried, tried to go to sleep, and I— but I kept waking up. I kept waking up because I was so sick, and I would just vomit from the head trauma. And when you're laying on your back back in an ambulance, you know, then they have to rescue you because I was on a backboard, so I couldn't help myself to be able to breathe from all of that going up my nose. And so in this really strange struggle with life, I would instinctively try to survive and gasp breath, and then I would try to go to sleep and die, just Ah.

Yeah, that's hard. I'm so sorry to hear. It breaks my heart hearing about it. And I want to ask you, if you're able to at this point as well, and I don't want to— I want you to take as much time to tell this as you need to today. You're not on a clock here, okay? Okay. But in the midst of this struggle that you yourself were fighting to breathe and you're coming through and you're wanting to be with your family, you know, at this time. I'm intrigued by this. You talk about hearing someone singing to you and I don't know the circumstances around that, but whose voice was that and what song did they sing?

It was God's voice. I knew that from the very first moment I heard it. It was a song that I had heard on the radio, so it sounded familiar. It was new on the radio in 2004, but I didn't know the song. It just sounded familiar. Hmm. It started when I was still in the van, before they even took me out, before I, I knew we'd been in an accident, but before I understood the impact of that accident. And the very first part of it I heard, it's like it came in sound bites at the times when I needed to hear the next phrase. It gave me something to focus on because I knew it was God. So the first one that I heard was, 'Do not be afraid.' It came to the— in the melody of the song, and it came over and over again like a stuck record. I guess that tells how old I am, but a stuck record. And I listened to it. It was, it was a gentle command, kind of like when you're holding a child in a, in a wild storm and you're comforting that child and letting them know that I've got you, I'm not going to let anything hurt you. And then about the time that they told me, we're going to take you out of the van first, I thought that was odd because I knew I was hurt, but it seemed to me everybody else was hurt worse. But they said, no, we're taking you out first. And when they started doing that, I heard the next phrase of the song, which says, the voice of truth says, this is for my glory. And I thought, okay, you're here, that means you're going to do something and we're going to be okay. By now you probably recognize the song as The Voice of Truth by Casting Crowns. Sure. Yeah, I couldn't put all that together yet at this point in the story. So then they took me and the driver of the other vehicle to a the little town hospital just a mile from where we were at the time of the accident. Um, that little hospital just has 2 ambulances, so only one could leave town at a time for the safety of the town. So the other ambulance took my daughter to the trauma center in Wichita, and it came back eventually to get the both of us and take us also to that trauma center. Mm-hmm. So while I was in that small hospital was when the chaplain came to the foot of my bed and he said to me, your husband and your son did not survive, and your daughter, we don't expect her to survive the night. And right at that moment, before I could even absorb what he said, I that chorus came to a conclusion in my head, and it said, out of all the voices calling out to me, I will choose to listen and believe the voice of truth. It was God just like crying out to me, I'm here, listen to me, don't stop believing.

Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. That is— that's such a sacred moment for you to even be able to talk about and share with us, and I do really appreciate that. I don't know how a person ventures forward from there, you know, and I know you didn't either. At that point. And you've been talking about your family here and your husband and your son and your daughter. Would you want to just tell us a little bit about them? And if it's, if it's too hard right now, I know it's already been a difficult conversation, so I don't want to push you more than you want to talk about. But, but they're people you love deeply, and I'd just love to know a little bit about them if you felt like telling us about them at all.

I would love to tell you about them. My husband's name was J.L. Jones, and I called him Jay. He was a pastor, and we, we had been in the ministry for 19 years. We've been married for 19 years, and in the ministry that whole time, we had served in Clay Center, Kansas, and and in Grand Island, Nebraska, and then in Miami, Oklahoma at the time of the accident. He was a NASCAR fan. He was— the NASCAR races, if you follow them at all, are on Sundays, so he always recorded them and then threatened all his friends to not tell him who won because he could never watch them live. They would start before we got home from church, and then late in the night Sunday he would watch them and He did— he loved that. We even got to go to one of the races before he died, which was wonderful. And he was onri, mischievous. The people— he's very personable pastor. People got along with him easily and, and enjoyed being with him. He interacted with youth and children well. He was an engineer by training. That's what he studied at Kansas State University, and then the Lord called him into the ministry when he had one semester left of his engineering degree. So he finished it and then went on to seminary. He never did work as an engineer, but he loved fixing things, putting things together. He had that kind of a mindset. And so on vacations, we would go go tour dams and watch, see how their electric power, you know, worked and all those kinds of things. He loved doing that kind of stuff. Wow. So that was Jay. Janessa was 14 at the time of her death, and she was a people person, an extrovert by nature. Jay and I used to laugh wondering where in the world she came from because Both Jay and I were introverts by nature, and so was our son. So she had a multitude of friends and loved to be with people. Even as a little bitty girl, she would say, 'Do we have a meeting tonight?' Because she didn't want to be home, she wanted to be with people. Yeah. Um, so she loved to sing. She wanted to be a recording artist. And nope, I have no doubt she's singing today before the throne of God.

And how old was she at the time of the accident?

She was 14, just barely. She turned 14 in October, and then the accident was in November.

Wow, my goodness.

And Jaden was 11. 11. Yeah, just still a little boy, really. He was a soccer player. He was the goalie. He loved to play soccer. My— one of my favorite memories was the accident happened on a Tuesday, and on Saturday and Sunday, Jaden and I went to a soccer tournament in Tulsa, and we— I got to be there and watch his team win the tournament. And one— the very first game, I think it was first game, one of the games, it was pouring And this— so the field was already flooded, but they played that game in the downpour. So every kick of the ball made this whoosh of water, and when he would dive for the ball, he would land in a puddle, and it was just great. I wish, wish somehow it could have been captured on by camera, but it was pouring, so nobody could do that. It was just a great memory I have of him. He was a real kind-hearted kid and usually looked for, for the kids in his class that were, were ignored or left behind. And so that's how he made his friends, and he made an incredible impact on, on his classmates. In the last year 15 years later, or almost 15 years later, he's had 2 friends name their children after him. Wow. Oh, I just— I'm so proud of him. He's continuing to impact his world today.

As you should be. That, that's awesome. That's awesome to hear about that. And he must have really left a mark on those friends for them to do that. That's a beautiful thing. Well, thank you. First of all, thank you for letting us know a little bit about them. That, you know, we haven't got to meet them, but they sound like they were beautiful people, and which makes the loss all the more profound. And you've been a woman of faith for most of your life, and everyone grieves and heals in different ways, and I know that just reading about you that music and faith have both played a part in sort of your healing and in sort of your walking through this grief and coming to the place. Would you want to share a bit about your experience of maybe how this has maybe reinvented your faith or your relationship with God? And then also maybe tell us a bit about the role that music has played in this process of healing.

Sure, you're right. I came to faith when I was just a small child because my mom and dad lived a life of faith, and so it was a very natural thing for me to believe in God. So growing up, I, I learned how to talk to him and how to hear his voice. But when something this significant happens, it, it raises all the questions of your mind of where was God and why didn't he stop it and how are you going to use this for your glory and why me and all of those things. And one of the early questions that people, a particular friend of mine, asked me was, 'Are you going to keep following God?' And my first reaction was, 'Oh wow, that— this is how that happens.' Because having been in the ministry for almost 20 years, I'd watched people leave their faith before, and I thought I didn't understand it, why anybody would do that. And now all of a sudden I thought, Oh my goodness, this is how they do that. And I realized I could walk away if that's what I wanted to do. I could walk away. And then almost immediately on the heels of that understanding was fear that went from the top of my head to the tip of my toes. And I thought, oh my goodness, walk away from my faith, that means that I am choosing to believe there's no God, no God to help me do this? There's no life after this one? That means my children are just dead? Are you kidding me? No, no, I'm not leaving my faith. It's the very essence of who I am and the only way I'm going to survive. And I, I know it's true. No, it's true. So that decision made— I just, I clung to God. And it's a long process for God to remake your heart and to sew it back together when it's in a thousand little pieces, but he does that. He's capable. And willing. I know he is because he's done it for me. Wow.

And would you say, would you say it's, um, it's a different kind of faith now in some ways too? Because I, I know just from my own experience of a couple profound losses in my own life throughout the years, there are times that maybe my faith has stayed intact, but it's been it's become a little different. In some ways, I think I've become less judgmental, uh, or there's different things that I maybe have more empathy for than I did, you know. Did you, did you find also that that was true in your own life and in your faith?

Yes, yes, I did. Much more patient with people's questions. And I don't know, when life has been fairly simple, fairly straightforward, you think that, well, if you just 'Obey God, everything will be good.' I have no idea why I thought that, because the Bible doesn't indicate that at all. And the stories of the Bible tell about the great struggles of faith. But somehow you just figure nothing bad's gonna ever happen to you. Yeah, but it does.

Yeah, yeah, it's— life is life, no matter what your faith is. But there's a difference in how we walk on the journey at times. And the rain falls on the just and the unjust, it says in the scripture. Yes, it does. And yet we all walk these different paths and we have these different stories to tell. I'd love to know about the role that music has played and still plays in your life, because I know in my own life I turn to music for almost everything. I write songs and I sing and I listen to other people's music and There's a few things that have helped me in times of struggle than, than just songs that are just in the right moment. I wonder how that has played with you as well, what role music has played in this journey.

It's almost like a second language. It's a language that God can speak to me when, when English won't do it, you know, when I can't hear him, or words I can use back to God when I can't come up with the words. Music will step in and help. I find it fascinating that, you know, enough time has gone by now. In those early years, God spoke a lot clearer than I had ever heard him speak before. I think that when we are incapable of even logical thought, really, when we're incapable of all of that, God steps in and meets our needs when we can't cannot do it for ourselves, but we get stronger as he puts our heart back together. And I get so annoyed with myself how easy it is to just take all of that for granted and stop doing the things that we know help build our relationship with the Lord. It's— it makes me angry with myself when don't have music on enough for me to listen and praise him, when I don't read the Bible consistently enough, when I'm just doing it to prepare for the next event and not doing it for my own, just my own interaction with God— is there's a difference in whether you're preparing for something or whether you're just doing it because, hey God, I want to hear from you today. It's, it's an everyday thing. Even when you're feeling stronger again, it's still an everyday thing that needs to happen. It's a relationship that matters.

Well, it sounds like you have really, have really walked through the valley of the shadow of death more than maybe many of us have. And, and yet you've understood and come to know even more that God really truly is walking with you, you know, through that valley and through that valley of the shadow of death in those times. And you've been sharing your story across the country now for more than a decade. Mm-hmm. And I'm curious, as you've told this story, and I know we go through different phases of grief and there's different emotions, and I always try never to tell someone we often want to tell a person the way they're supposed to be grieving or what stage they're supposed to be in, but I just don't think that's right. I think we do what we do and we go through what we go through. Um, and I'm just curious because you've mentioned a couple times now, um, just the way that, that God seemed to be near you and, and kind of holding you and, and telling you the right things that you need to hear. Um, and, and I know for me, I'm not a very angry person, but I went through a really painful divorce years ago. And one of the things that happened to me during that time— I don't know that I'd call it a loss of faith, but there was a time where I got very angry at God. I was in ministry and I felt like, you know, I've done everything I'm supposed to do, why is this all happening to me? You know, and I remember at one point just going in my sanctuary at church and really just honestly letting God have it, you know, and just really every bit of anger that I could possibly get out, I was just directing it at Jesus, for lack of a better way of saying it. And it's interesting the way that you have phrased the way that you've experienced God in those times too, because at the end of what I just call poison just kind of overflowing out of me at that point, I felt this real sense of being held by God, and almost, almost as if I was being embraced and he was whispering in my ear, did you get it out? It's okay, I can, I can, I can handle it, you know, it didn't hurt, you know. It's sort of like, it's sort of like when a tiny toddler is hitting you or something and you're going, are you, you know, did you get it out? It didn't hurt me, you know. I like, I, I get what you're going through. Um, yeah, I just wonder, I mean, is that something that you kind of can attest to as well? Because I certainly have found in those moments, I don't think God's angry at our anger. I think if anything, he wants us to be honest. And then in those moments, I tell people when I tell that story, I feel like I experienced him more closely maybe in those moments than I have in, in a lot of other times in my life. And there was a real sense of his nearness and when we think of the— of how profound it is that Jesus would go to a cross for us, that he's willing to enter into our pain and to bear, and to bear whatever wrath we put on him sometimes, you know. I mean, do you, do you have that kind of similar feeling as well as you've kind of walked through the different emotions with God?

Definitely. The first time that I kind of let God have it, as you said. I had 3 older brothers that are significantly older than me, and the one that I really remember the most living with me— because they're 10, 15, and 18 years older than me— so the one that's 10 years older than me, I remember when I was a little bitty kid, he would, he would like tossle my hair with his hand, like reach down and mess my hair, and it was a real feeling of endearment to me when he would do that. So after I let God have it, that's what I felt like he did. Like, like he just reached down and messed my hair. Like, I like you. Yeah, like, it's okay. Yeah. And I, I was talking to a friend right after that. I said, why, why did God seem to be totally okay with that? And he said, because I think you were finally honest. Mm-hmm. And that really resonated with me because I always avoided anger in all of my relationships, feeling like I didn't want to say anything, that I didn't want to express emotions that I didn't think I should have. Mm-hmm. Yes. But that's really dishonest. That kind of caused problems in my marriage sometimes because I he would say, "You're angry." Like, no, no, no, because I— not that I wasn't angry, but because I knew I shouldn't be angry. So instead of saying, "No, I'm not angry," I should have said, "Yeah, I am, but I don't— I know I shouldn't be." Yeah, you know, it was the honesty that's important. Yeah, very much so.

Well, that, that's, that's good to know. I do find that to be a common experience, and I do think there is something about exactly like your friend told you, you were, you were finally honest and you were finally able to do that. And time and again when I've heard people say that, and I think it was Brennan Manning that used to talk about, uh, you know, God doesn't know the person that you pretend to be because that person doesn't exist. Oh wow, yes. And, and God knows those things that we're going through. And, and I've, I've felt at times I wonder if God almost prefers, um, an honest curse to a dishonest praise, you know, not in the sense that, that we should go around cursing God by any means, but certainly there's a sense in which if we can truly be honest, then God can actually do something with us, you know, like there's, there's something that we can agree on together. And, and as my pastor often says, that, that we, we agree with God about ourselves, you know, at that point. But I, I appreciate you sharing about that and And as you've gone around the country now and been sharing your experience, I'm just curious of how this story that you have shared, that you've even shared with us today, how have you seen your story be used in other people's lives along the way?

Well, several ways. One, I have heard a lot of people say, "That gives me hope." like, if he can help you do that, then he can help me do this. And along the way, I've also heard a lot of people say, God told me to just get over it. What I'm mad at him about and what I'm— what I'm stewing about and wasting energy on is so small in the general scheme of things. And that's really true. A lot of times we just get all stirred up about things that really don't matter when there's a lot of pain in life that does matter. And that's, that's where our energy needs to go instead of the little irritations of life. But I've also heard a lot of stories of pain, deep pain, pain that matters. And another thing that I've heard it— because what I love to do is take my story and interweave it with biblical story, with characters from the Bible and their, their story and how God interacted with them. And that's why God gave us those stories, so he would see how— so we could see how he interacts with us, how he's willing to interact with us if we'll let him. And that lifts those characters off the pages of the Bible, and, and we can talk to them, you know, interact with them, and, and see what God did in their lives. And Thus know what he can do in ours. So that's another thing that I've seen— I've heard people say is that the Bible's coming to life. And nothing could make me happier because I know that if you'll believe God is real and you'll open that book, God will take your story to those pages too, and he'll talk to you. So that's, that's probably my biggest passion as I go and share at women's retreats and churches. I want people to open that book because it's living and it's the true word of God.

I, I love how you just phrased that— take your story to those pages, you know. And I think sometimes we try to make the Bible kind of fit into our lives rather than sort of the other way around and seeing kind of God's story and the way that our story intersects with that. And I love the way that you just phrased that a moment ago. Well, I want to— we aren't quite done yet today, and there's, there's more to tell, but I do want to say congratulations on on your book about to be published on June 25th, if I'm not mistaken. Is that correct? You're correct. We're almost there. All right, so June 25th is just around the corner. So I know that congratulations are in order just on writing a book. That's a big effort in itself. And then for you to relive these experiences in your book, both not only the pain that you experienced but also the hope that you're offering to people as well. And I, I want to just make sure that everybody listening here today, because we do have a lot of pastors and leaders in churches and different organizations who listen to this show, and I wanted to let them know that you are available to speak and for interviews. And you'll speak on things like why it's okay to question God, how to have faith in the midst of the unthinkable. You'll talk about things like why God is good all the time even when you can't see it. You talk about 7 scriptures to rely upon when facing difficult circumstances. You also talk about things like the gift of healing and how wounds lead to lasting joy, and life after loss, how to rediscover hope and deepen your faith. So you've got a real— a lot of really great things that you go around and talk to churches and retreats and just, I'm sure, whoever invites you, you know, to come and be able to share this story. And I want to thank you for that, but I did want to let everybody know that, that you are available for things like that. And I hope that they'll have a chance to be able to hear your story. With that in mind, where can people connect with you online and pick up a copy of your new book, Song of a Wounded Heart?

You can find me on my website, which is www.lorajones.org. You do need to know to spell my name L-O-R-A My mom was creative. LauraJones.org, and that's where you can schedule me to come and speak. That's where you can— there's a tab there about the book with lots of links to various places. But you can find the book Song of a Wounded Heart at any of your favorite online bookstores. You can already preorder it. It'll be shipped here in just a couple weeks, and hopefully you'll be able to find it at your local bookstores as well. Ask for it. They'll be able to order it, or at your local library. Definitely.

Yeah, I'm a big user of our library here in town. So I think we forget sometimes what a resource those are. But it's a great feeling to know that libraries are ordering your material too. That's a pretty awesome thing. Yeah.

And you can ask for it, and then they can order it that way. That's right.

That's right. So, well, I want to encourage everybody to check that book out. And I want to thank you for your time here today. Now, this is a question that may seem out of nowhere, and if it does, or if it seems too strange, you know, you don't have to answer it. I'll even edit it out of the show if you don't want to. But it's just a question I'm curious about, because in my own life, some of the things that my wife and I have dealt with, we haven't had maybe as profound of grief as you have experienced in some ways. But again, I don't like to put like a limit on people's grief and go, well, yours doesn't count. Right. And one way that I've found to help me in times of grief is to write songs about it and to sing about it sometimes and be able to share the story and talk. And one thing that I did recently, my wife and I had been through— we've lost 4 children who through miscarriages. And one of the lines of the song is, you know, "We never met you, but we love you." And I wrote a song called "The Lord Is Our Shepherd." And one thing that I did in that song intentionally was I just made it a song to those children who we never met, you know, and I kind of wanted to tell them how much we love them, but also how much God loves them. And that it's okay for them to rest in his arms now, you know? And so we're people who, we long for the resurrection and we believe in it and we just— and I know that as Christians that is such a powerful hope in our faith. So here's the question that I have all this lead up to. I sometimes finding myself talking to those children and just saying, you know, even if it's just something from time to time, even though I know they will know this, I'll sometimes say, "It's okay, just allow yourself to be loved by Jesus," you know, "Just allow yourself to be held in the everlasting arms." And I don't know, it helps me. I've never understood, I don't know exactly what the afterlife looks like. I don't pray to them, but I do talk to them sometimes. I'm just curious, Do you ever kind of find yourself in that way too, since we do believe that absence from the body is presence with the Lord, as Scripture tells us about? I just wonder, do you ever find your times in those moments talking to your husband and children and just kind of in fellowship with the Spirit? I don't know any other way to say it.

I do. Those moments nearly always for me occurred during a song where either I, I feel like, oh, that's something I want to say to them, or that's something they're saying to me. It's tender, tender pictures, or a dream. Or I usually worship looking up into heaven instead of looking down and closing my eyes, almost like willing the ceiling to open up where I could see into heaven. And there's a lot of moments like that where I just feel like they're kind of looking over the edge, looking at me. And the very first time that happened, I was in the church where the funeral was and where my husband grew up, and I was singing with the congregation, that Jesus is all the world to me, my life, my hope, my joy. He is my strength from day to day. I'm mixing the words, but, um, just, um, when I am sad, to him I'll go, no other one can cheer me so. And I was singing that and I was imagining heaven, and I— and all of a sudden it clicked in my head that when I am worshiping God, that is the closest I can be to my children, because that's what they are doing around the throne. So when my praises go up before the throne, they mix with theirs. Yeah. And all of that just clicked, and I felt like I heard both kids cheering. And going, "You're getting it, Mom, you're getting it!" Yeah, right, exactly.

They're becoming the teachers in some ways. Yes. Surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses. And what a— you know, it's interesting the way that those scriptures take on different meanings, you know, in different experiences that we walk through. But that's awesome. I really love hearing that, and I appreciate you taking time just to indulge me in that what some may find to be a weird question, but I think it's a beautiful answer that you gave to it. Well, our time together has run out here for today, and I'm sorry about that because I really enjoyed talking with you. But I do want to remind listeners once again, the new book by my guest today, Laura Jones, is called Song of a Wounded Heart: Regaining Hope and Trust After Personal Tragedy. And you can find it on— again, June 25th, you can find it on your favorite retailers online, or you can go to your local bookstores and ask for it there. And that would be a wonderful thing for you to do because that lets the local bookstores know that there is interest in that. So let's see, have I missed anything today? Is there anything that I, that I didn't say that we should cover before we get out of here today?

I don't think so.

I don't think so. For more, they'll have to read the book and then message me and ask all the questions they want.

Well, that's terrific. Well, as I tell my guests every week as they come on this show, thank you, Laura Jones, for being one of the voices in my head this week.

Thank you, Rick, for doing this, for giving me the opportunity to praise the Lord with you.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com where you can find out more about me. Get my music on vinyl and CD, follow my blog, and even schedule me for a concert or a speaking engagement. Better yet, even a book signing in your neighborhood. You can find all that and more at RickLeeJames.com. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, the more visible this podcast will be online. And now, For the benediction: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. God bless you, and thank you for listening to Voices in My Head.