Voices In My Head Podcast Episode 327: William Willimon - Accidental Preacher

This episode of Voices in My Head is brought to you by Podbean. With Podbean, you can create professional podcasts in minutes without any programming knowledge. Best of all, everything is mobile ready right from the start. Visit podbean.com/voices to find out more. That's podbean.com/voices. This is Rick Lee James, and the music you are hearing is from my new album, Thunder. The title track, Thunder, is a never-before never before released song by the late Rich Mullins. There are also 12 other tracks made up of original music, hymns, and readings to guide the listener on a journey. You can buy Thunder today on clear vinyl and CD, or stream it on Spotify, Apple Music, and almost every other music streaming service. Thunder, hear it today at rickleejames.com. Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, a songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more with friends, colleagues, and sometimes just by myself. Now make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes or by tweeting at me @RickLeeJames. @RickLeeJames on Twitter. And please join my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. By the way, in case you're interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the voices in my head. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of Voices in My Head. Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I am your host Rick Lee James, and I'm very glad that you could be with us for what's going to be a great conversation today. My guest this week is Dr. William Willimon. He is the professor of the practice of Christian ministry and director of the Doctor of Ministry at Duke Divinity School in Durham, North Carolina. He's an internationally renowned preacher and widely read author noted for his humor, his insight into the Christian faith and his theological commitment. His many books have sold over a million copies. His latest book, a memoir titled Accidental Preacher, releases on July 17, 2019. In Accidental Preacher, Dr. Williammon recounts memorable moments from his rich and full preaching life with his signature wit and humor. Accidental Preacher portrays the adventure of a life caught up in the purposes of a God who calls unlikely people to engage in a work greater than themselves. Dr. Willemann, welcome back to Voices in My Head.

It's great to be back, thank you.

Well, the memoir was really a wonderful read. I really had a hard time putting it down. I think I read it all in about 2 sittings, and it was wonderful. Well, and really one thing I liked about it a lot— I've read a few memoirs, including, you know, Stanley Hauerwas, who you are known to do more than a few books with over the years. He had a wonderful memoir, and there's been a lot of great ones from preachers over the years, but one thing that I like about yours, to me it almost read like a sermon itself, even in the way that you were telling your story. It really has such an easy-to-follow narrative to it, and the way that you include stories along the way. And so I really think that people are going to be pleasantly pleased, maybe even surprised a little bit with how this memoir reads, but it's very good.

Oh, I'm glad to hear you say that. I really tried to structure it like a kind of a series of sermons. I've got each chapter, as you see, a scriptural text that I began with, and so I'm glad to hear you say that it reads like a sermon.

Yes, very much so. Very good sermon, I might add.

Well, let's— thank you.

Let's talk a little bit today, if we could, as we start. One consistent theme throughout your entire memoir is vocation. And you note that too often— and you say this in the book, so I'm going to quote you now— you say that vocation degenerates into volunteering rather than risky encounter with a summoning God. Worship morphs into sappy songs, syrupy clichés on the screen, followed by the sharing of tiring details about our personal lives at coffee hour. Christian preaching slides into 'come right over here and sit next to me, I'm dying to tell you about myself' and theology becomes commentary on human experience of God rather than God. So as we begin today, and that's a really interesting way of putting it, what would you say your definition, sort of your working definition of vocation was as you were entering into this book?

Well, I think vocation, you know, from the Latin, simply meaning vocare, meaning to call, that Christians believe we have been externally determined, summoned, called forth. And I note that the Bible begins in Genesis with God doing vocation, saying through the Tohu wa Bohu, light, and then plants and animals, people. It's just of the nature of this God to address, to call forth, to summon, and I think that's just one of the kind of core peculiarities of Christian faith. And I note that it's particularly distinctive in our culture, because in our culture, the sort of predominant cultural narrative is your life is your life, and it's up to you to make it turn out right, and you can do anything you set your mind to, and, and you can choose yourself into life. Uh, well, that's really not Christian. Christian is that God, God chooses you, uh, in, into life, and that, uh, it's vocation all the way down. And I think Contemporary Christians make a mistake, whether it's in sermons or in the songs we sing, to sort of make Christian faith into something we decide to do or we astutely choose, rather than this is something God has done to us. Yeah, so, uh, yeah, yeah.

And even, even in our baptism, you know, it's You've noted several times in several of your books, and you do it again in this book, talking about, you know, we dunk the people, but God does the rest, you know, throughout. And there really is something that God is calling each of us to. And you, you in your book, of course, are talking about your own life, so your particular vocation being a preacher, among other things. But all of us— I love the way that you point out in the book that all of us really are called to to some vocation by God in our lives. And it's, it's something that really chooses us. You know, most of us probably wouldn't have chosen this calling if it was just up to us. Who knows where we would have ended up? But I love the way that you weave your narrative along with that. And I want to talk a little bit about your ordination, because when I actually was reading this book, I was away for the weekend for the Church of the Nazarene that I belong to. Our district was having their ordination service on one of the evenings when I was there. So it hit at a perfect time. And you talk in your book about your ordination in 1973 at Broad Street Church in Clinton. And you say that, you say that when Bishop Tallis laid hands on my head, the Holy Spirit alighted upon me, neither in the singing of the choir nor in the presence of adoring family and friends, but rather when the bishop intoned the ancient words of the ordinal 'Never forget the ones whom you serve are the beloved sheep of the fold for whom he died.' And that just really rang home to me as I was listening to it because I've heard you remark many times that, you know, if you were the one doing the calling, you probably wouldn't have called a lot of the people that Jesus calls. And I, and I agree with you, a kind of distinctive, uh, Uh, you—

I say the memoir, you know, you can, you can choose your friends. You cannot choose who you're going to do church with.

Exactly.

That's kind of up to God. And that, that becomes one of the blessings, but also at times one of the great challenges of being a Christian is you are— the church is determined by whom God calls. Yeah.

And it really is It's humbling sometimes when we think about the people who God calls and that we are allowed and even called to participate in ministry with. What a big and broad God we have who would be so imaginative, I think, at times.

Maybe that would be a good word for his genius. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Or what a wonderfully reckless God we have. Calls, you know, people like us to be his. And I note that, you know, the story of Jesus begins really not with Jesus doing anything except vocation, when he calls this group of 12 knuckleheads together and says, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take over the world and get it back for God and And guess who's going to do that for me?

Yeah.

And that is a— that is a distinctive way to be God. Hmm.

Wow. Along those lines, as we're talking about ordination and, and really what a serious thing that is, you also note in the book— and I'd love for you to talk a little bit about the meaning behind this and what it means to you— but you say, as a bishop who said— who severed a number of clergy from their ordination I believe that if life really begins with being called, betrayal of vocation is deadly. And I'd love for you maybe just to talk a little bit about that, because you all— I'll finish sort of a part of that passage that you go on to say that dozens of United Methodist Church died on my Episcopal watch, and hundreds more barely had a pulse. There is little theological justification for a shrinking congregation. Dwindling congregations are an affront to the God of the living. And not the dead. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the idea that a loss or even a betrayal of vocation is deadly and what that can especially mean for a minister.

Well, I think vocation is, for any of us, means it's what God wants you to do. This is your life as God intends it. And, uh, so to, to go against that, to resist that— and of course with preachers there is, you know, quite a lore of people, uh, resisting the call and running away from the call. And we, we of course get that kind of thing in scripture with Jeremiah and others who resist the call, uh, and, uh that, that to, to walk away from that, to allow yourself to be called by other gods, so to speak, um, is a kind of life and death matter. And, uh, I admit that when I speak of preachers betraying their call, I admit in my memoir, you know, I love being having been called to be a Methodist preacher. And I therefore think when someone falls away from that vocation, that's bad and allows other alluring gods to call on, such as the god of materialism or the god of power, the god of sex, or all the other ways that preachers often betray their vocation. I do think it's a live question though, that, you know, are we called to be preachers forever and ever? And I think I believe damage was done, that vocation is, you know, God's call, but God calls us along life's way, may call us to a variety of vocations. So in fact, I as a bishop got to see a lot of clergy that would, it would have been a blessing to them and to the church if they'd had the courage to leave and go take up some other line of work other than inflict some poor congregation with their own unhappiness. And so I think that notion medieval notion, priest forever after the order of Melchizedek. I don't think that's a Protestant notion necessarily, and therefore one can be called to different vocations. However, I guess when I think of betrayal of vocation, I mean not simply, you know, stopping being a pastor, but I think of you know, preaching something other than the Gospel of Jesus Christ, allowing other philosophies or good news, other good news to take the place of his good news. I think of being deceitful in your personal life, being deceitful in conversations with parishioners. That, that is the betrayal that I find to be deadly. And you, you wake up one day and you're just going through the motions, and you're just coming up with an interesting address on a weekly basis. And it's— so to me, that is, uh, that's sad because it is— it's kind of a rebuke to God. It's kind of saying to God, hey, I don't, I don't care what you want, I'm gonna do what I want. Or Lord, you didn't know what you were doing when you called me. And, uh, wow.

Well, you know, kind of along, along those lines, um, I've noted recently, and, and one reason I wanted to talk to you a bit today, um, partially I wanted to talk about What's Right with the Church, one of my favorite books that you've ever written, but also just the idea that I think that, um, we're in a time where I don't know quite what to make of it exactly. I don't know that I would call it necessarily a betrayal of vocation, but I'd love your thought on this. I had read somewhere recently that something like 14% of Christians left their churches after the 2016 election, and it was an interesting— yeah, that's— it's kind of a staggering statistic, and that's probably evangelical churches, and most of them due to the fact that they felt their church was aligning too much with right-wing politics, and sometimes even left-wing politics, probably. Um, but it kind of leads me to a question, and it's got me thinking as I've been reading again in your memoir, reading things like What's Right with the Church? Because in my mind, I've often thought, you know, the church hopefully at its best will be the body of Christ in the midst of the world and will be the voice to the government that says, 'Thus saith the Lord.' But we're kind of in a time where it seems like many of our congregations and many of our pastors and prophets have decided, 'I'd rather play golf with Pharaoh than say, "Let my people go."' And, um, it's, it's, it's sort of, it's sort of a time that we live in. I, I wonder if you could address the idea. Do you think people can faithfully leave their congregation because they're trying to follow Jesus? And it's, it's one of these questions that I've had come up with a lot of people because they felt like, I just can't worship there anymore, I just can't be a part. And many people are in a mode of, of what they're calling deconstructing, you know, they're getting almost like abandoning different things about their faith. And I, I wonder if you could maybe talk a little bit to that and sort of your view on that.

You know, I mean, in one sense, I think, uh, leaving a congregation, uh, for reasons when one disagrees, when one feels that one congregation, one's congregation has diverged, I mean, it's a serious thing. And partly serious because, as I said, you know, the church itself is a huge challenge that Jesus Christ puts before us. And Jesus Christ says, don't, you know, just, you know, it's not enough just to worship me, it's not enough just to witness and follow me, you got to do it with these other people. And Jesus throws us into a group like he did his first disciples. And, um, uh, so one must only do that carefully and for serious reasons. Uh, however, uh, over the years, you know, I've seen people who have said things like, I didn't leave my church, my church left me, or my, my church sort of left me high and dry. Uh, I— so I can understand that too. I can also understand— I know seminarians have asked 'You know, don't you think it's terrible when people stop giving to their church in protest because the preacher said something, or the church is doing something of which they disapprove?' And I said, 'Yeah, that's a bad thing. You shouldn't do that.' On the other hand, I have seen people who have tried everything they know to get their pastor's attention, to register their disagreement, and basically they are ignored. And so they think, "Gee, I am being ignored, I am, and I'm, so I'm really being excluded." And so the exclusion started with the church. I do think one of the tough things about being the church is that Jesus Christ, he didn't die for the church, he died for the world. Yeah, and that the Christ is Lord of the church. And there certainly have been times, uh, in Christian history, and there got to be time today when Jesus Christ takes precedent and someone says, I just don't think I can be faithful to Jesus Christ in this church. And, um, I know as a pastor I've had people leave my church and the reason they gave was me. And they said, we're just too tired of your liberal sermons or left-wing sermons, or we don't like your attitude about this or that. And I always took it as a serious matter and I would plead with them. I said, look, I'm leaving here eventually. This is your church. These people love you. You're a big part of the church. I'm a United Methodist.

Mm-hmm.

And we got United Methodist today talking about splitting, starting a new denomination, leaving because they disagree with, uh, actions of our General Conference or something. And I think that's a serious matter and a very sad matter. And even the people that I vehemently disagree with, such as the people who were at the last General Conference, generally Uh, I don't want them to leave, and because if they leave, our Christian witness will be damaged. I won't have anybody to argue with anymore. I won't have anybody to convert. I won't have anybody busy trying to convert me to their point of view. And, and, and somehow I think Jesus is well served in that sort of argumentative, uh, debating, uh, kind of church about what would the Lord have us do. So One more thing I'd say that I don't see many people leaving churches because of political disagreements and all. Mm-hmm. Boy, I think in the present moment, when I think of some of the, what I consider to be really dumb things some evangelical leaders, and not only Franklin Graham, have said about our current political climate, Uh, uh, it's— boy, uh, I really think I can understand why many evangelicals are really upset with their pastors for not making a stronger stand against some of the political immorality. On the other hand, the people I see kind of leaving church are not leaving in a huff or leaving on a matter of principle. They're just leaving because we live in a narcissistic, individualistic, subjectivistic culture in which I am the basic unit of the world and I am God and what is personally right to me is the law. And church is a rebuke to all of that and a challenge, so I would think that our greatest challenge is that we live in this atomized, individualistic society. And so I would say to someone when they say, "You know, I think I can be just a good Christian away from that church or in it," I just say, "Can you?" You know, I don't necessarily approve of the church, but it is Jesus' chosen method of gathering and sending and equipping and So in my memoir, I do try to do the best I can to both be honest— yeah— about the challenges of life in the church, but also to give some great episodes when my faith has definitely been strengthened and broadened and deepened and challenged by the church.

Well, and I appreciate that about the book too, because I think just as many times as in the memoir, as you talk about people you've engaged with and maybe disagreements about things, it seems like there have been times when you too have been challenged and, you know, have, as you say, you know, people trying to convert you. There have been times that you've needed that. We've all needed that. You know, we've needed those moments of ourselves being converted. And one thing that I've appreciated so much over the years in reading your books is, you know, you're kind of an equal opportunity offender when it comes to the right and the left, you know, those type of things, because you do challenge us to be disciples.

I had a friend after a sermon a while back said, "Would you have said the same thing about Hillary, about Bill?" And I said, "Oh yeah, yeah, I said the same thing." I, uh, and in the book, uh, I talk about someone being offended after a sermon after a remark I made about Bill and Hillary, or maybe it was a remark about George and Laura. I just can't remember. Yeah, yeah. And, uh, I do. Yeah, yeah.

So, but, but, you know, at the same time, I, I, I appreciate that because there is a sense in which— and I think we even see this in the pages of scripture too with. It seems like at times one book is almost arguing with another book in Scripture, you know, about certain things. And there is a sense in which, you know, that's, that's kind of what family does. We don't always tend to agree about everything, but hopefully we love each other. And that's, that's why I, I personally find it so disheartening at times that people seem to be leaving so often. And again, I think often it is driven Maybe by, as you said, sort of our narcissistic society that says, "Well, if you're not going to do what I want, then I'm leaving." And it's a hard thing sometimes. And while we're talking about some of the names that you mentioned, one thing I did want to talk about because I find it humorous, and I don't know how else to describe it other than it's sort of like name-dropping in reverse that you do sort of in the book. I don't know quite how to call it. Because you have an interesting way of dropping names of famous or semi-famous people, whether it be in media or politics. I'm just going to share a couple of these because I think they're kind of funny in the way that you put them. One of them is you're talking about former Attorney General Jeff Sessions, and you talk about taking him to court in the anti-immigration battle, and he called you a disgrace to Alabama Methodism. So it's Again, sort of a reverse name dropping type thing. And then there was Rex Tillerson who says about you, he says he was one of your favorite writers, which you say thrilled you, but then Rex spoiled it by boasting, "I've read everything he's ever written." And you say, "No way, no way, Rex." That had to be it. No way he would have had the time to climb to the top of Exxon if he did that much reading. And then one other one I just want to point out, because it kind of speaks to the humor and the way that you approach it. The time when you were invited to speak at Robert Schuller's Crystal Cathedral, and it was, I believe it was called the Successful Church Conference, where you chose to speak on, of course, failing at ministry with Moses, Peter, and just about everybody in the Bible, which is It's so like you, you know, to address it in that way. But I've always appreciated, and the reason I kind of mention those things is the way that you've challenged us to be a church that is embodying being countercultural, you know, as part of the gospel. So it would be one thing for a person to name-drop and go, you know, this person knows me or that person knows me, but you're kind of approaching it with the thing of, oh no, Jesus is kind of causing me trouble with these people. It should be in this way. Anyway—

No, I think I'm doing— when I'm talking about my critics or people that I'm antagonistic toward, because of what they've done or not done. I think it's a gentler, kinder way to kind of laugh about that than to, you know, fiercely denounce them or criticize them. It's also, as Karl Barth taught us when he pondered about what he should preach about during the rise of the Nazis. You know, Barth said it's a dilemma because you, you want to criticize prophetically and all in the name of Jesus, but at the same time you don't want to give them undue glory. And I think in the present moment, I have often been incensed or felt that I should speak out more about our president's deceits and some of his immoralities, but yet on the other hand, I think, gee, I'm a preacher, I'm supposed to be talking about Jesus, and I don't wanna give the present moment, I don't wanna give the present people in power any more glory than they deserve. And so preachers struggle with it, but I do think One of my readers said, you know, your account of the, of being at the Crystal Cathedral and all sounds almost unkind. And I said, well, you know, I think there's, in all humor there is aggression. Aristotle told us that, uh, but it, it, it's soft aggression. It's not condemning somebody, it's just saying I find this person funny. Or, uh, shouldn't be taken too seriously in the wrong way. And, um, I also believe that, as you said, it's— Jesus Christ, uh, was a troublemaker, and he caused problems everywhere he turned. And I said in a sermon one time, Jesus Christ brought out the worst in us, uh, when he came and says, I love you, and I am the Messiah you've been waiting for, and we said, huh, let's kill him. Uh, when you got that kind of faith, uh, it's going to be bumpy and there will be abrasiveness. And, uh, for everybody who gets upset when their preacher takes some political stand, um, you wonder how many people just don't show up because they are so bored.— or because they think the church is in complete denial and the church is where you go into Never Never Land and float above the grubby realities in which we live. So, well.

Well, that's very well said, and I do appreciate the way that— I do think you approach it with humor. Actually, the whole episode in the book where you're talking about being at Robert Schuller's house for for dinner. And I mean, I was just hee-hawing at parts. It was just really funny. And you almost have a disarming way in the way that humorists like Mark Twain, I think. And I'm a big fan of Mark Twain and his humor writing. Oh, and I feel like you're kind of on the same wavelength that many times, just in the way that you're talking about some of these people. And I hope you'll take that as a high compliment because I really appreciate That's probably, uh, very high and undeserved.

But you know, Mark Twain, uh, Mark Twain had a very dark, uh, depressed view of the world and himself. He had a child to die, and he, uh, he— and I'm, and I'm, I may be some the same. One of the editors said, uh, was surprised that Here I start talking about death, uh, towards the end of the book, and I talk about, you know, I'm a preacher, I've helped hundreds of people to the grave.

Yeah.

And done a lot of undertaking in my ministry. Um, but I— so I, I think, uh, I do feel that, uh, uh, I guess I and like when— I'm hoping God has a sense of humor in dealing with my sins and infidelities, and I think most of the time we're not so much villains, we're just sort of ridiculous and comic. And that seems to me a more gracious way of assessing humanity and yourself than to see ourselves as just unredeemable villains.

Well, and that is good. And I think the way that you present with humor, it is— humor can be very disarming at times and can maybe help us to have some of these conversations. And I wanted to, before we go too far off into another trail, and if you were able to, in just a moment, I was going to have you read a section of the book that I had asked if you're able to do that. But before we do that, I did want to refer one time real quick in our conversation. In 1985, you wrote a book which I've already referenced called What's Right with the Church? And I wanted to make mention of that because that book did so much for me. I was given it actually as an assignment when I was a student at Trebek Nazarene University in Nashville. And my church history professor, Steve Hoskins, he had us read that book. And it did so much for me to help me really, in many ways, fall in love with the church. And I mean, not to say that I agree with everything, but it's in the title, What's Right with the Church? Because it's so easy to point out what's wrong all the time. It's so easy to just, you know, sort of be negative in that way. But I love the way that you have reminded us and have reminded me again and again that for all her faults, she is the bride of Christ, and I do love her. And there is a wonderful, wonderful part in your book, and it almost brought tears to my eyes as I read it. I even read it to a friend this weekend as we were out doing some work in a tornado-damaged neighborhood. We just had some time in the car, and I pulled out my phone because I had your book on it. And I thought, if possible, I'd love to have you read this passage that can, I think, help us to love the church, you know, again, in some ways, because there are some good stories and some really good things to hear. But I wonder if you could share that section from the book where you were invited to speak at a pastor— at a church in a rural congregation and were asked to baptize a kid who was there.

Oh, great, because I hope the story shows the ways that I have been directed and instructed by the church. And I think, you know, it's a countercultural thing these days to say a good word for the church, but here's my account of a baptism. That I got lassoed into, and I'll be glad to hear it now.

Thank you.

A historic responsibility of bishops is guarding the faith by teaching. I finagle dozens of opportunities to conduct workshops and lectures in my conference, and yet often as a bishop, the teacher became the taught. When you visit us to preach, said a rural pastor. Would you baptize a kid in our congregation? Oh, I'd love to. I've been instructing him in the faith for the past few months, and it'll mean so much to have the bishop baptize him. By the way, he wants to be baptized by immersion. Rick Lee James: What? I believe in baptism by total immersion, but like many of my beliefs, I've never actually done it. That's when I arrived at Church, a weathered clapboard building in the middle of an Alabama cornfield. Sure enough, pastor stood on the steps with a small boy of 11 or 12. Uh, Jason, it's an honor to baptize you today, I greeted him. Hey, they tell me you never done one of these. I feel better if we rehearsed, he said. Oh, that was just what I was about to suggest, said I. We went into the Jason Fellowship Hall. A font borrowed from the Baptist was surrounded with potted plants. Jason and I walked through the ritual. I want to be dipped 3 times, he said. Oh, that's wonderful. John Wesley was big on triple immersion, although he couldn't get many mothers to let him triple dunk babies. I just thought, I'm nervous. We had a quiet, quiet service in a little church. I preached on baptism, and then behind the cross, everybody processed to the fellowship hall singing Amazing Grace. The congregation gathered around the pond. After a few sentences from the service of baptism, I asked Jason, anything you'd like to say to the congregation? Yeah, I want to thank you, especially if you put up with me in Sunday school when I was a kid. I wouldn't have known Jesus if you hadn't told me, Jason said. When my mom and daddy got divorced, I thought my life had ended, but then I figured out you were the family God wanted for me. I'm going to make you proud. I'm going to show you how good you are at making a decision. You're going to see. Well, I melted. Can you pull yourself together, Jason asked? Uh, y'all sing another verse of Amazing Grace, I pray. Well, they sang, Jason took off his shoes, I led him by the hand into the baptismal waters, and God did the rest. Church, I love you.

Now I just love that part, and there are several stories that you share in the book where it ends with church, I love you, and it's It's a good one for us to— and, and we need to remind ourselves of good stories like these. I thank God for, for kids like Jason in the world that remind us of this. And, you know, as, as his calling, as he's being baptized in the water that day, I was so moved by that story. I don't know if it just hit me at the right time or what, but thank you for including that and for sharing that with us today.

I really hope the, the memoir As I say in the memoir, the only memorable thing that ever happened to me was I got called to be a pastor, preacher. And I hope the memoir will be read as encouragement to Christians, particularly to people called to be, have the care of fellow Christians as their pastors. So I think, you know, wintertime, I'm in the mainline Protestantism, when I think we need an encouraging word, and I hope that word will come through.

Sure. Well, I think it really does. It came at a good time for me, for sure. And I want to remind everybody who's listening that the book does come out on July 16th of this year, 2019. 2018. And the book is called Accidental Preacher, and it is a memoir by my guest William Willimon today. And I can tell you it's worth the read. And I know that people who read it, they're going to be glad they did, especially pastors. I think pastors need this kind of encouragement. If for no other reason, sometimes to, you know, my pastor always says, nobody understands pastors but pastors. And it's a good thing for fellow ministers to actually read and go, "Oh, I can so relate to that. I'm glad he said that. He didn't have anybody else to tell this story to." Yes.

Oh, good, good.

Yeah. So I really appreciate it. Is there anything else today that you would like to touch on before we go? There's so much in the book that we could pull out, and I wanted to make sure everybody knew when the book was coming out, and they'll be able to find it on all the usual places they buy books at. But I wanted to give you a chance because I always want to make sure that when a guest is on the show, we give them all the time to highlight the things that they're doing. And I didn't want to leave anything out, so I just wanted to ask if there was anything else we should cover today.

Gosh, thank you for doing the podcast. Thanks for reading the book. I feel privileged that I got to tell my story as as I best I know how to tell it. And I really see my memoir as an act of gratitude to God for enlisting me in this kind of work and my surviving to be able to tell the story. But also, I hope the readers of my memoir see that the main protagonist here is, is not me, but it's, it's God that sends people, uh, who are as weak as I am, that sends me, people like me, out on outrageous assignments in the name of God. And, uh, I hope it'll, it'll encourage them in their assignments. So thank you.

Well, thank you. As, as always, it has been a real pleasure, and I hope we can have you on again one of these days. But But for now, it's just been so good to be able to spend some time with you. And again, because I don't always get a chance to do this, but when I have guests on the show, I just like to take a moment. And I want to say thank you for— you've been a huge part of teaching me to love the church, the bride of Christ. And I'm grateful for that. And because of you, in many ways, I'm proud to say that I'm not only spiritual, but I am religious. And I am a part of the church. I'm so grateful for that.

Well, wonderful.

Thank you. Well, Dr. William Willemann, thank you for being one of the Voices in My Head this week.

Great to be there.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, follow my blog, and even schedule me for a concert or speaking engagement. Better yet, even a book signing in your neighborhood. You can find all that and more at rickleejames.com. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, the more visible this podcast will be online. And now for the benediction: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. God bless you, and thank you for listening to Voices in My Head.