Voices In My Head Podcast Episode #292: A Purposed Heart with Dr. Craig Gilbert

<LYRICS>Hymns, Prayers and Invitations</LYRICS> The latest album from Rick Lee James has garnered praise from CCM Magazine, Worship Leader Magazine, UTR Media and more. Written and arranged using hymnals and prayer books for inspiration, this collection of 10 modern hymn-like worship songs will inspire individuals and congregations to draw near to the heart of God. <LYRICS>—Holy name of God.</LYRICS> Highlights include Christ Is Lord, inspired by St. Patrick's Breastplate Prayer, Advent Hymn, and the Communion Hymn: The Invitation. Worship leaders will be glad to know that all songs on the album are published through LifeWay Worship. Find Hymns, Prayers, and Invitations on Amazon, Spotify, Apple Music, CD Baby, and at Rick Lee James .com. Have you ever thought to yourself, man, I'd like to host my own podcast? Well, guess what? You can go to podbean.com/voices and get everything you need to create, manage, and promote your podcast. I use Podbean every week for Voices in My Head. There's easy uploading and publishing tools, stunning templates, custom domains, social and promotional tools, an embeddable podcast player, monetization tools, and more. It is your all-in-one podcasting solution. With Podbean, you can create professional podcasts in minutes without any programming knowledge. Best of all, everything is mobile ready right from the start. So go to podbean.com/voices, and when you sign up, use the code "voices" and you'll get a sizable discount. Podbean, for your home podcasting. Thank you for listening to Voices in My Head. Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer-songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is your source for discussions on music, literature, movies, pop culture, theology, and more. Now sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of the Voices in My Head podcast. And don't forget to let the voices in your head be heard by following me on Twitter @RickLeeJames. James and sharing your thoughts about today's show. Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I am your host Rick Lee James, and I am so glad that you could join us here this week. This is going to be a very special episode. Today I am here with my friend Craig Gilbert. Craig is a lifelong Christian and musician. He first sang in church at the age of 4 with his family and has been playing music in church ever since. He also benefits from a prolific career singing and playing outside of the church in classical music ensembles and choirs, as well as singing, arranging, and playing multiple instruments in bands of a variety of styles. Craig is passionate about bringing the arts before God in worship in a way that allows congregations to not only participate, but to also engage with God in worship through the arts. Craig is not a musician who happens to play in church, but a true worship pastor who uses the arts to reach others for Christ. His professional training includes a bachelor's degree in music education, a master's degree in conducting, and a doctorate in worship studies. He has provided professional consulting services in music team development, worship design, and congregational participation for several churches and conferences. His website is theworshipdoctor.com. So at this time, let's welcome Dr. Craig Gilbert. Welcome to the Voices in My Head podcast.

Hey, thanks. I really appreciate it. Um, it's great to be, uh, talking to you, and, um, uh, it's, uh, we've had a, we've had a nice connection since you and I met a couple years ago, and I'm just glad to be part of whatever it is that you, uh, what you've got going on and however I can help you out.

Well, I'm glad to have you on today. This is wonderful to have you here. And I was thinking back to the first time we met, and at the end of that time at the National Worship Leader Conference, I asked you if you could take me back to the hotel thinking we were going to be at the same hotel, and it ended up being the same name, but it was on the other side of town. And I remember there was just a torrential downpour of rain that was hitting, and I felt so terrible because you had to go like 30 minutes out of your way. And I just felt awful, and you were so gracious and kind, and you still talked to me the next time I saw you again, so that was good. Oh, that's hilarious.

That was in Kansas City, and I completely forgot about that.

Well, I'm glad. We'll see now, anger's going to well up inside you. No, no, not at all. Not at all.

That's awesome. I completely forgot about that. Yeah, so that tells you that it was no big deal. I thoroughly did not mind doing it at all.

I'm so glad. I would have felt bad anyway, taking you that far out of your way, but The fact that I basically made you drive through a hurricane was the worst part of it. Well, I am so glad to— Oh, that's funny. Yeah, I'm so glad to have a chance to talk with you today. I've enjoyed getting to hear you at various worship functions over the years. And you have a very unique ministry, and you've released a really great training. It's a DVD called A Purposed Heart. And it's a really wonderful training tool, I think. But it's not in the way that a lot of worship training tools happen, because most of those are specifically designed for people who lead worship on Sunday morning or who play a certain instrument. And I love that your focus and your ministry, not just so much in a Purposed Heart, but really your ministry is to the church and trying to help congregations themselves become worshiping congregations. So I'm looking forward to a conversation with you today just about some of your really good insights in those matters. So first off, a couple of questions that I had for you, and we'll go wherever this takes us today. But you are a person that, that really I would consider an expert in worship design, and I wonder if you could maybe define that for the listener today who may not understand what that means, that when we come to a worship service that there actually is a design to it and what worship design is.

So I look at worship, you know, one of the foundations of worship and one of the earliest forms of worship was a way to tell the story of Christ. And so, like any good story, it's going to have a shape. It's going to have a journey. It's going to have a line. You wouldn't— it would be very confusing, for instance, were you to open a book that all the chapters were jumbled and you read them in no particular order and then tried to— then had to try to figure out the story. That's not going to work very well, or You know, think of your— I know probably many of your listeners binge-watch on Netflix their favorite series, regardless whether it was originally on television, HBO, wherever. And so imagine just kind of bouncing around and jumping through the different episodes, the different seasons, and the different episodes, and then trying to put together some sort of timeline or some sort of understanding of of the story. Worship is a— was always a chance for us to tell the story of Christ. And while each Sunday may deal with a different aspect of that story, each Sunday should have a flow to it to where the story makes sense from the time you walk in till the time you walk out. And so worship planning in a lot of ways is finding a way to order that story and then tell that story in a way that people can engage with it. I've been involved in churches where worship planning was not a high priority, and it showed in the worship experience. You would come in and you may or may not know what was happening next. What happened next may or may not make any sense. The flow of the story, the flow of the service may or may not run well. Big huge gaps or pauses, or, you know, one of my favorites is announcements in the middle of the story, and I want to just put a thing up on the screen that says, "Now, you know, for this commercial break, we're going to—" And it's like, okay, great, that's culturally relevant, but is it really necessary? And then the other thing with worship planning is intentionality. So that what you offer and what is presented in worship is done well. When you're choosing music on Saturday to be done on Sunday morning, you run the risk of that music just not being done very well. There's no time for prep, there's no— there's little practice, not a lot of thought put into it. And so I like to talk about worship design from the aspect that it is a preparation and a way to give honor. Invariably somebody asks me, who is in perhaps a freer worship style, they'll ask me, "So where is there room for the Spirit in your worship service?" And I always say, "When I start planning." I sit down at my desk and I open my Bible to start reading the scripture that the pastor is going to be preaching from. I've got my music materials, I've got my drama resources, video resources, whatever is there. And before I ever begin even reading the word, you know, I begin in prayer and I invite God into the process, invite the Holy Spirit into the process. And what I pray is that the leadership that the Spirit can give me as I'm planning is what is needed in in the worship service. And I don't want to be, I don't want to sound not humble and not respectful of God, but hopefully God doesn't have to come in and grab the, yank the service away and say, hey, you just really messed up and I gotta take it over here. What I hope is that it is a, the worship service is a, result of me being faithful and listening to the will of God and the will of the Spirit and planning as such. I mean, there's still times when a worship service has things in it that I never dreamed would be there. God, you know, God shows up in all kinds of ways, and there are connections that I never even knew would be there. But I think that the faithfulness of choosing the right song or choosing the right drama or the right reading or whatever, um, and telling that story in a way that people can identify with creates an opportunity not only for God to be present and God's will to be made known, but for people to engage with it and not be distracted by hiccups and sound problems and video problems and all the other things that can get in the way of a good connection.

Yeah, no, and that's an excellent answer. I especially loved what you were talking about with planning, because at times it does feel like people are almost offended that, you know, you put time into this. Shouldn't you just let the Spirit move? And I love the idea that, you know, we can help people understand that, you know, it's always a little bit strange to me that people who have a belief in God who has plotted out his entire plan from beginning to the end of time would be against us doing some planning in connection with the Spirit, you know, as far as what he's leading us to.

Well, I tell people all the time when either whether I'm at my desk or I'm sitting down with a team, you know, I believe God's always present in the room. And if we believe that the Holy Spirit can guide us in a worship service, why don't we believe that the Holy Spirit can guide us in planning? Certainly.

And so that's just where I fall on that. Yeah, and even in every moment holy, even this moment we're sitting in now, I believe the Spirit of God is working and moving and directing and helping us and taking us places that we may not know where to go. But at the same time, a good example is that I did preparation for the podcast today in order to have, you know, good conversations like this that could be Spirit-led. So I love that, and I think we need to emphasize that more as we're training people for leading worship. My pastor and I plan always at least a couple of weeks in advance together And that's been such a help since we started doing that. We didn't always do that, but it really has made a difference in the flow of our Sunday mornings. Even if we do have to go off page some weeks, it's that structure that has helped and the worship design that you're talking about. So I appreciate you talking about that with us today. Another thing I wanted to talk about is in your DVD series, there are so many good things in A Purposed Heart. And so I first want to say to anyone listening, if you're looking for a wonderful 4-part series group discussion training tool, maybe you can't afford to go to the big conferences all the time. This is almost like a 4-session conference in one DVD with 2 discs. And they're really great. And so I wanted to first kind of make that plug, and they can get that at theworshipdoctor.com. And as we talk today, I think that listeners are going to see why this is beneficial. And something that, that I just love, and I've always loved about you, is you talk about on, on the DVD, and I've heard you talk about it live off of the DVD as well, but you've talked about the centerpiece of worship being the meal, and how in the early church the centerpiece of worship was the meal. And That's very important to me as well. And I wonder if you could talk to us a little bit this morning about why that is the case and why the centerpiece of worship was the meal.

Well, of course, the, you know, the— our Christian worship is rooted in the— in Jewish worship. And so the Passover you know, the Last Supper, the Passover, all of that carried over into early Christian worship. And so the earliest Christian services all had a meal. And in fact, they not only had the Eucharist, they not only had the Lord's Supper, but they also had a meal, a communal meal. That's what Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians when you have the, you know, the wealthy members were getting there early and eating all the food and getting drunk, and the working-class folks are getting there, and there's nothing left for them. And there was a real, there was a real issue there. So the communal meal has always been— or not always, always is a strong word— but has, has been a regular part of worship since the beginning. Of course, up until the Reformation, the, the Roman Catholic Church was the only church, or the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic. Of course, they're going to celebrate communion every single every single service, and that was the centerpiece of the worship service. In fact, there were those who could not— those who were not members of the church had to leave the service at that point because then it was the, you know, those who were believers joined in the Lord's Supper. So anyway, all that to say, the table up until the Reformation was the centerpiece of worship. And then, of course, after the Reformation, the rise of the sermon took over and the table got less and less prominence, but it's being recovered over the last couple of decades. There are more and more Protestant churches and non-denominational churches and evangelical churches who are celebrating communion every single week, and not necessarily at the detriment of the sermon. These are people who've elected to just stay stay in church longer so that they still get the full meal of the word as far as the sermon goes, and then they get the time of joining with God through the sacrament of the Lord's Supper. So, you know, it's a wonderful part, this joining through the breaking of bread and the sharing of a cup, not only because Christ called us to do it, but that's our culture. I mean, what's the first thing we do? 90% of people when they go on their first date, what do they do? Movie, dinner and a movie, right? Right. Um, so, so, uh, dinner and a story. It's culturally relevant to, to have, to have the meal as part of worship. Um, you know, when, when you have a party, you invite people to your house. What do you invite them for? Some people invite them for cards or dominoes or something, but almost all of them invite them for a meal. You can't even invite people to a football game without serving wings or something, right? Yeah, that's true. So, so food is a— food is a big part of who we are as people, and especially as people gathered. And so to have the— to have God's, uh, God's— the meal that God has ordained at our services is certainly a relevant, uh, a relevant part of our, our beliefs, of our worship, and again, of who we are. As God's creation.

And this was kind of a revelation to me a while back when I was doing some preparation for leading communion at a function I was doing. And it just struck me when I was reading again Christ's words that he says, "Do this in remembrance of me." And I just kind of heard the phrase differently for the first time, and it changed a lot for me because I thought, you know, in remembrance of me, this is the one thing that Christ said, "When you remember me, think of me like this." Like, "Do this in remembrance of me. Think of me as the host of a meal." And I think it's very profound when we think about all the different things that are very important that we do in worship, and things that we have maybe made too important in some ways, like music and, you know, the different elements of the service. There's the offering, there's the sermon, there's, you know, a lot of churches will have greeting times or passing of the peace and things like that. But Jesus didn't say, you know, in the gospel, remember me as a preacher, or remember me as this. He says, do this in remembering me, you know. And I love that picture of Jesus as calling us to remember him as a host, you know. And I think that's a beautiful metaphor to think about in those ways. On this line of conversation that we're having, you have some wonderful analogies that you use in A Purposed Heart on the DVD. And one of my very favorite analogies that you have is the difference between eating a meal at a restaurant versus eating a meal at a dinner party. And I think this is so key in helping our congregations understand their role in worship and even what God's role is. And I wonder if you could just talk for a few minutes about that metaphor of the difference between eating at a restaurant and eating at a dinner party and what a difference that makes when we approach worship.

So I will try hard to only talk for a few minutes.

Okay, well, don't talk— talk as long as you want.

I enjoy it. I could, I could talk for hours about this. Yeah. Um, so it's interesting that you pull that out of all the metaphors that are in— first of all, I teach in metaphors just because I find that if people can can pull in a set of, a paradigm of understanding that they have in something else that they understand very well, and I can, and then I can pair that with something in the church. Of course, I feel like understanding comes a lot faster. And what's interesting is, to me, that you pulled that out, is that that was actually probably one of the very first metaphors that I came up with when I was working on teaching about worship, because I felt find one of the biggest issues that I get as a consultant with churches, as, as I— and I've just, I've now learned this is just being almost standard— a lot of times pastors are calling me and asking me to fix what's on the platform. And I'll come in and, and actually what's happening on the platform is not bad. The music's good, the flow is good, it's well, it's well done, the preaching's not bad, everything on the platform looks pretty good, but they're not getting the engagement with the congregation that they want. And what I discovered is that the problem is the expectation of the congregation. In other words, the people are coming into worship, including the people on the platform, and they've got the wrong set of expectations. They've got the wrong set of, um, of, uh, well, expectations is the word I need to use. Um, they come in with a param— a set of parameters for how to rate their experience and how to judge and how to interact, and it's the wrong set. And so that's where the, um, uh, it's not a biblical set, and that's where the restaurant and dinner party thing comes in. So everybody, everybody can relate to eating in a restaurant. They— everybody's eaten in a restaurant at some point in their lives. Um, and the, the key there starts at the very beginning, and that is the impetus for going to the restaurant is started by yourself. You got hungry, or it's that time, and so you decided that it's time to go to a restaurant. Now maybe somebody invited you to meet them at the restaurant, but still that impetus is coming from you. And you get there, and of course you go through the whole— and there's so many variables to this— but you get there and you start judging your dining experience from the moment you drive up into the parking lot. Some of us even start determining it by the traffic that we have to go through to get there, right? Right. But we get to the parking lot and we make up our mind by how close we get to park and how far away we have to walk. How far we have to walk, we walk through the door. How long do we have to wait? What's the overall atmosphere in the room? Is it bright? Is it loud? Is it dark? Is it quiet? You know, we're making judgments the whole time as soon as we walk through the door. They get us sat down, they hand you a menu, and you go through and I mean, what do you do? You pick out what you like to eat. You start making judgments based on what is the selection, how much does it cost, how fast is the service, is the server, you know, are they pleasant, are they really attending to my needs, can I get what I want, so on and so forth. And of course when we get done, we kind of express our enjoyment of the meal by how much do we tip. And, and so when we— and then when we walk out, the reality is our entire experience, our— the quality of our experience and our, and our satisfaction with our experience is completely based on how we were served, period. Everything is about us and, and us being served well. Did we get what we want at a price that we like? Is the food good? And that kind of thing. So that's a, that's a paradigm that we understand. And, and so people go in with that expectation. I mean, it would be weird if I got up and I, and I, and I walked across to somebody else's table and I said, hey, you know what, what's that? You know, and I don't know these people, right? Uh, and I just kind of walk up and say, hey, where did I— didn't see that on the menu. Where did that come from? You know, people don't do that. Um, you don't interact with the other people in, in the, in the restaurant. In fact, Think about this, Rick. You, you go to a restaurant with someone else, and maybe you're 2 or 3 people. You're sitting at a table, and let's say the restaurant's very crowded and you waited 30 minutes to get this table. Um, think about this. You are technically, theoretically eating alone in a room full of people. Yeah, it is a, it is a giant collection of small group of small individual parties, eating together and completely ignoring everybody else unless someone else is crashing into their space by talking on the phone loudly or kid crying or whatever. Alright, so now compare that to I give you a phone call, Rick, and I say, Rick, I'm having a party at my house and I'd really love for you to come. Now I don't know how it is in Ohio, but down here in the South, the very first thing somebody's going to say when when you invite them to a party is not who's coming, it's not even when is it. The first thing they say is, what can I bring? Exactly. Down here, it's just, it's just automatic. What can I bring? And even if the host— even if I told you I don't need you to bring a thing, I got everything covered, you know what you're probably going to do? You're going to bring something anyway, because that's what a guest does, right? The guest brings the host a gift. They bring something, whether it's a you know, a bottle of wine or, uh, uh, you know, something— set of napkins or coasters. Yeah, I don't know, but people bring stuff. But let's say I invite you over and I tell you that it's a potluck, so I want you to bring something. Bring, bring whatever you want to eat and, um, and, and bring whatever you want to drink. I'll have ice and cups and I'll have everything else. Now we'll have a lot of different food here. We got a bunch of people coming. So you decide what you're going to bring, you come over to my house, and maybe you have to park a long ways away, but that's okay because that just means it's gonna be a great party, right? Mm-hmm. Um, you come up and I may not even greet you at the door 'cause I'm somewhere else. And so somebody else at the party greets you at the door and they help you find a place to put your coat, they show you where to put your food, uh, they find a place for, uh, someone to put a purse, they tell you where the bathroom is. And then when it comes time to eat, you might eat dinner in the living room, dessert on the back porch, you might, you know, you'll wander around, you'll have conversations. You don't really worry about what the food is because you brought what you like to eat anyway. But even if, you know, but you're probably gonna sample around, and this is the time to try some new stuff. You're probably not afraid, you know, except for maybe, you know, Sister Susie's green bean casserole. You may be— that one may be a little scary, but you'll eat it because you like Sister Susie, right? Yeah, so you put all different kinds of things on your plate. I mean, you look down, your plate does not look like anything you would get in a restaurant, period, right? There's no uniformity. It's just a little bit of this and a little bit of that. And you sit down, you're having conversations, you'll get up and let somebody else sit in your spot if you finished eating and, and they haven't. You'll— so our whole para— and then, and then here's the best part: when it's over, you'll— if you've been there before, you might help take out the trash. You might help do the dishes. And when you leave, it's a completely different experience from the restaurant in that you leave and your experience is not based on how well you were served. Your, your judgment of the experience, your judgment experience was based on the relationships, your relationship with the host, your relationship with the other people. Yeah, the food might have been good, it might not have been good, but, but it was the people. And that's what's going to draw you back, are those relationships. So the crux of these two— so what do these two metaphors mean? Well, the crux is which one of these two are you when you go to church? And my argument is, is that the— or my argument, my point is, is that the majority of people find themselves going to church like it's a restaurant. Um, they don't go in with any— they don't bring anything to start with. They think their offering is what they bring, but that's not it at all. It's not the money in your pocket, it's the heart and the spirit and the willingness to engage in relationships. That's what you bring. But unfortunately most of us don't bring that. We come in, we sit in our little spot that we sit in every single Sunday, and we would never let— and if anybody's sitting in our spot, oh heaven forbid that somebody might be sitting in our spot. And we don't show people where the bathrooms are because that's the usher's job. Um, and, and then we get our bulletin and we look at it and we look at it like a menu. I like that song. I don't like that song. I like this song. Oh gosh, is he preaching on that again? Oh my goodness. Oh, look who's reading the scripture. Yeah, I don't think this is going to be a great Sunday. And you're already making your decisions. You're already making your, your judgments before the service has even started.

This is really going to affect the tip.

It really is going to affect the tip, right? And then, and then that's exactly it. Then the offering just becomes a tip. It's just a— and I know that sounds crass to some people, and they say, oh, that's not me. But really search your heart, and I think you'll find that there's— that a lot of people, that's exactly what it is. I mean, how many people do you know in a church fight say, I'll take my money and go, you know, I'll take my support and go, you know? I know too many people who try to hold a church hostage with their money. Yeah, um, that's a restaurant mentality. But if we take it as— if we understand, first of all, and you This is where I love what you said about Jesus at the table as the host. If we understand that God invited us to worship and that it begins with God and you're there at God's invitation and God is the host of worship, that isn't your house, that's God's house, that's God's party. And all of a sudden you'd be, oh, well, what can I bring? And, and you come in with a different mindset. Now imagine a church full of people who are actually willing to help people find a place to put their coat, willing to help people find a place to sit, willing to help people find a bathroom, willing to help do the dishes, take out the trash, and willing to interact with each other, not afraid to say hello. I have been in so many churches where they say, oh, we can't have that shaking hands time. Uh-uh, no, no, no, can't have that. What are you talking about? Can you imagine going to a dinner party without a time of greeting and introduction? I mean, you walk through the door and the first thing you do is you start saying hello to everybody you know, and you start being introduced to the guests, or you introduce them to the guests that you brought. It's a whole different paradigm. Yeah. And so for me, if we could just adjust our expectation before we ever walk through the door, all of a sudden everything on the platform is different. It's no longer my favorite song. It's no longer my favorite prayer. It's no longer the sermon that applies to me. It's a— it is a song that we can all sing together. It's a prayer that we can all pray together. It's a sermon that we can all hear and we can all learn from together because we're all in this together. Does that— I don't know if that makes sense to people, but I just— I think it's the difference. I think it could be the, the key difference between worship, uh, that is, that is engaging and that is life-changing and is God-honoring, and worship that is self-centered, me-centered, and not— and to be honest with you, I don't think that's biblical worship if you're just coming in and it's all about you.

Well, that is excellent. I think that's— I think the listeners, if you heard that, you'll understand why I say that the DVD that you have is so wonderful. There are a lot of thoughts like that that help us as a congregation to be able to think in new and different ways about worship. And that's just a really powerful metaphor, and I really appreciate you taking time to talk about that one today. I want to ask specifically before our time is done today, what kind of church can use your help as a consultant? Because you've been talking about consulting with different churches and things when you come in. So what kind of church can use your help?

I think it's any church that feels like they're stuck. One of my favorite things to do is to be able to come into your worship service or your house and bring a fresh set of eyes and say, wow, there's some great stuff happening here. And sometimes those are things that you're tired of or you think Yeah, that's not really working. And I come in and I say, man, this is really great. And then there are other times when I walk in and I go, yeah, okay, that needs a little help, or this needs some, you know, here's some things that you can do to liven this up or connect this better. And you go, well, actually, that was one of the things we really thought was really good. And it's not because I'm trying to be difficult, but because sometimes We get our blinders on. We're in— it's kind of like if you're in your own house and you don't even notice the colors anymore, right? And then somebody new comes in and they go, oh, look at that little figurine on the— on the— where did that come from? And you haven't seen that, and you're like, when did that get there? You know, it's been there forever because there's a thick layer of dust on it. Um, and so, uh, any church I think that would like to get a spark in their worship. You know, back in the— back in, you know, there was a time when churches had revivals, and I know some churches still do. And a revival was often an evangelistic time. But I'm somebody that can come in and help you find a spark again, find joy again, or connect with worship in new ways that perhaps you've never you know, never done before or need to do again. And I can do that with your congregation, or I can do that with your instrumental groups. And I can even— pastors that let me, I could even work with them on re-engaging and re-enlivening their sermon delivery even, to pull people in and join with people in new and fresh ways.

And I think that's wonderful because you're right, we do get sort of a home blindness to All of us do about everything in our life. And it's sometimes just so helpful to have someone from the outside that comes in and can really just help us to look in a fresh way. Really the same thing is true of songwriting, I know, because so often I'll work for a long time on a song and I just don't know. I think it's done, you know, and I'll take it to a friend and a co-writer and I'll say, "Can you have a look at this?" And then they kind of start you know, lovingly or sometimes unlovingly tearing it apart, you know. They pick it to pieces. Yeah, that's right. But ultimately it's a good thing because we need that, and I think that's kind of what the Holy Spirit is doing in our hearts as well, you know, as he continues to grow us and change us. And sometimes there's some growing pains that needs to happen, and some things need to fall off that don't need to be there anymore. And so I feel like the The gifting that you have for ministry to churches is something that's very valuable, and I do love the idea of churches having you in for sort of a different kind of revival. You know, let's talk about the spiritual side, but let's also talk about some things that we could do that might actually be transformational in how we even approach worship, you know, and I think that's a much neglected thing.

Well, I've told people before that, you know, you have evangelists who are, you know, who come in and they have their focus. And I tell people all the time, I'm a worship evangelist, right? I want to come in and help you save your worship a little bit. I want to lift up worship and make it, kind of return it to what it was. And I really appreciate you pointing out the DVD because that's the whole point of that DVD. That was a real labor of love. And it allows me to come to your church even if I can't physically come to your church. Sure. Um, and, and work on the worship, uh, heart, the heart of worship. That's why it's called The Purposed Heart. I've actually launched my consulting ministry is now called Purposed Heart Ministries. Um, and so you have theworshipdoctor.com is still online, but Purposed Heart Ministries is online, or purposedheartministries.com is online now. And, uh, I'm going to be starting some resourcing there specifically for churches to develop their worship. And the cornerstone, of course, is the beginning of that, is the Purposed Heart for Worship DVD series. But I am available to come to your church and do everything specifically for your church. And really, the key is I'm not trying to make— I will not be coming and trying to make your church like everybody else's church. Or like the church down the street. In fact, if you tell me you want to be like the church down the street, I'm gonna tell you can't, because you are your church and you minister to your people. And let's see if we can't find how to make your worship the best it can be for the congregation that God's called you to minister to. Exactly right.

I'm, I'm going to start shouting amen in a second here. This is, this is valuable and rich, so I really appreciate it. Well, we're just about out of time. Is, is there anything today that we— I know you have so much insight and knowledge into so many things, but I want to make sure that just for anything that you're working on, you've mentioned PurposedHeartMinistries.com and we've mentioned TheWorshipDoctor.com and your consulting services. Is there anything else that you want our listeners to know before we finish our conversation today?

The only thing I want to close with is just that You know, God loves us all, and God gave us worship as, um, it's kind of our relationship, uh, our relationship therapy, as it were. It's our time of focusing on our relationship with God and our relationship with others. And don't forget the others in worship. We can come in and we can really focus on that vertical us and God worship, uh, that us and God relationship in worship. But remember that there's a horizontal component. And I'm going to be in prayer for your churches, everybody that's listening to this. I pray every day for worship in churches across the country, just because I believe that this is— worship is that battery that drives us. It's the Energizer and the refocus time that we have to really be about God's ministry. And it doesn't start— it doesn't end with worship. You know, at the end of worship, the longest part of worship is actually the shortest part of a worship service, and that is— that's the benediction, the sending forth, because that hour, hour and a half that you're spending in church is only to prepare us for the, the rest of our time to be Christ to the world, to be the church in the world. And so If there's any way I can help anybody in this, in the global church, to better use their time when they're the gathered body of Christ, that's what I want to do. Whether it's just to pray for you, whether it's to come and be at your church, or if you got questions and you just want some answers, I'll do the best that I can. So reach out, contact me. I'm easy to find and I always respond. I just want to be there for you and just for you to know that there is someone out there who really cares about the worship in your church and wants to help that in any way possible.

Well, that's wonderful. And I was just thinking as you said that, and we started our conversation pretty early on talking about the meal, and I was thinking again just now as As you mentioned that about the horizontal aspect of worship, one of the wonderful things a lot of people don't realize about early Christian worship was at the conclusion of that meal in their worship service, they would take the leftovers out to the community to those who needed it. And really, whether it's literal food or whether it is what we have received, our calling is to carry that out into our world. And so I appreciate so much what you've said about the venid Well, all of you who are listening today, I want you to know Craig is the real deal, and that's why I had him on the show today. And I think he has a lot to offer the church, and God is using him in some really great ways. So Craig Gilbert, thank you for being one of the most— I messed up my whole closing line. Craig, thank you. I'm gonna try that all again. Oh man, I think in nearly 300 episodes I've never messed up up my closing line, but here we go. Craig Gilbert, thank you for being one of the voices in my head this week.

You're welcome, Rick. Thank you for inviting me.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com. Follow me on Twitter @RickLeeJames. Like my artist page at facebook.com/rickleejames. Rickleejames, and keep up to date on what I'm writing on my author page on Amazon. There's also the Voices in My Head Facebook community found at facebook.com/voicespodcast. And if you want to follow my alter ego on Twitter, follow my popular Mr. Rogers quote account found @MrRogersSay. Also, make sure to follow my appearance schedule on my website, and if you would like to have me come to your town to do a concert, a speaking engagement, or a book event, you can book me through my website at rickleejames.com/bookings. And it would mean the world to me if you would write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews we receive, the more visible this podcast is on the internet. And now the benediction. May the God of peace peace, who raised Christ from the dead, strengthen you in your inner being for every good work. And may the blessing of God Almighty, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, rest upon you and dwell within you this day and forevermore. Amen.