Voices In My Head Podcast Episode 331: Signs of Life with Stephanie Lobdell

This is Rick Lee James, and the music you are hearing is from my new album, Thunder. The title track, Thunder, is a never-before-released song by the late Rich Mullins. There are also 12 other tracks made up of original music, hymns, and readings to guide the listener on a journey. You can buy Thunder today on clear vinyl and CD, or stream it on Spotify, Apple Music, and almost every other music streaming service. Thunder, hear it today at rickleejames.com. This episode of Voices in My Head is brought to you by Podbean. With Podbean, you can create professional podcasts in minutes without any programming knowledge. Best of all, everything is mobile ready right from the start. Visit podbean.com/voices to find out more. That's podbean.com/voices. Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, a songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more with friends, colleagues, and sometimes just by myself. Now make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes or by tweeting at me @RickLeeJames. RickLeeJames on Twitter. And please join my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. By the way, in case you're interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the voices in my head. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of Voices in My Head. Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I am your host, Rick Lee James, and I am so glad that you can be here with us for another great episode and another great conversation. My guest today on Voices in My Head is Stephanie Lobdell. She is the author of a book called Signs of Life: Resurrecting Hope from Ordinary Loss. It comes out on October 1st, and she is also the campus pastor, or as some of you might call it, the chaplain at Mount Vernon Nazarene University. She's formerly a local church pastor where she did pastoring for over 10 years. She's an ordained elder in the Church of the Nazarene. She's a blogger. She's a book reviewer. She's a person who fights depression and anxiety. She's a wife to Tommy, a mom to JoJo and Jack, and we could go on and on, and we will in just a few moments here. But for now, we'll just say welcome to the show, Stephanie Lohman.

Thank you very much. I'm glad to be here.

Well, listeners, you will be interested to know that we literally just met like a day ago online. Isn't that correct? Thank you. I got this wonderful email from Stephanie, and it was the most wonderfully informative page. It had a sermon that you had brought forth. It was a really good sermon on the good life, actually. And I had a chance to listen to the sermon, and I thought, you know what, no matter what we talk about, I can tell that Stephanie is going to be a great conversation to have today. So I'm looking forward to the book, and I appreciate you sending an advance copy to that. But I'm going to be learning about you today, just as many of our listeners are going to be learning about you. So I'm so glad that we had a chance to be able to sit down and talk for a few minutes.

Thank you very much.

Well, let's start out by just letting you tell us in your own words just a bit about who you are. I know that you are new to the job of campus pastor. Um, I couldn't decide if I wanted to say chaplain or pastor, but I, I went with campus pastor right now for Mount Vernon Nazarene University. Uh, so tell us a little bit about you.

Yeah, well, I grew up pastor's kid, so I grew up my life very much a part of the church. I really felt like my vocational call to ministry started when I was about 14 or 15, and I really answered that call when I was 15. I always imagined it was going to look exclusively like cross-cultural ministry, you know, I was going to be the traditional missionary that you read about in the books. And there's kind of, I think, a lot of reasons why that particular vision of my ministry took that shape. I think that's primarily where I saw women serving at the time. And so I really didn't have much of imagination for myself in a pastoral role. So that's kind of how I imagined my life kind of going. And so I went to college and studied Christian education in Spanish and missions and all the things, you know, and right after graduation, my husband and I went and served the church internationally for a year as volunteers in Sicily. So we were there for a year kind of starting to start a new work that was in Palermo, Sicily. And that was, it was a good time. And it was, it was challenging and eye-opening. It really empowered us and changed our kind of worldview in many ways. We ended up coming home. So my mother-in-law was ill, but also because I desperately wanted to go to seminary, I just realized I needed more education. And I was afraid, honestly, that I'm going to do damage if I don't get some more school under my belt. Like, I really need more schooling and hungered for that. So I ended up in Kansas City going to seminary. And during that time, my husband accepted the call to be a local church pastor. And I was just going to go to seminary and it was going to be fine. He'd pastor, I'd go to seminary, and then we'd go back overseas as quickly as possible. But that wasn't the kind of the path that we ended up taking. As soon as he gets, you know, there's the service where they're ordaining him, not ordaining, like giving him the symbol symbolizing like his pastoral role. I'm getting extremely upset in the pew realizing I'm supposed to be doing this with you. And I don't know what that means, but this is not right. This is what— not how it was supposed to go. So within a few months, the church elected me as co-pastor. So we started co-pastoring, which frankly, I did not really know was a thing, but it's a thing. And it was more of a thing than I possibly could have known. And we ended up co-pastoring in a lead pastor role in two different churches for 10 years, 6 years in rural Missouri, and then 4 and a half years in Idaho. Just sharing the office of lead pastor, sharing the pulpit, you know, kind of doing the other pastoral tasks according to our giftings. But then not quite a year ago, I got just this email asking me if I'd be willing to send my resume to Mount Vernon. And I just thought, "I think you have the wrong person," for a number of reasons, partly because I just foresaw my ministry playing out in the local church. I don't have an academic degree in terms of like, I don't have a PhD or intentions of getting one at this point. I'm just I'm a pastor. And so, I sent my 10, you know, but I felt this kind of like my husband was like, "No, you need to send this. You need to explore this." And so, I sent this resume, CV, you know, they call it when it's so fancy at the school, you know, CV, with some of my publications on it and whatever, and sent it to the president and just said, "Hey, listen, if you're looking for some brilliant academic or you're looking for some, you know, philosophical genius or whatever, or somebody who's lived on the streets and, you know, all those, you know, extreme examples of what you imagine someone in that university setting to be," I'm not any of those things. I am a shepherd. Like, I have been, I've been shaped by the Lord and by my journey to be a shepherd of people, to guide them and disciple them and to preach. And if that's what you're looking for, if that's what your campus needs, then maybe we need to talk. And then it was radio silence for weeks.

That sounds very familiar.

Yeah, I'm the reject, right? But it turns out there was just lots of other things going on on the other side of that conversation. But ultimately, in a we agreed in February and felt very affirmed in the Lord that this radical new turn was the path we needed to take. And so here we are. I'm 31 days into the job as campus pastor at Mount Vernon. I have only met a handful of students yet, but know I will meet more very soon as they like bombard the campus in a few weeks. But enjoying learning that, it's extremely overwhelming, but I feel very alive and very much like this is where I want to give my life. I want to give my life to this. So, but in the midst of that, I have continued to write on the side. Finished my manuscript of my book a few months ago. I've just been doing the edits, and then I've had the privilege of co-writing a couple things with, with a friend as well that will go for publication around the Lenten season. So trying to kind of keep that up on the side. I'm just getting up early in the morning before, you know, the sun to say, okay, get a few words out, get a few words out, and then go about your day. So that's where I'm at.

Well, that's terrific, and it sounds like you a lot on your plate right now, actually. But that's great. And I really, you know, you had said something to the extent earlier when you had sent your resume in, you know, if you're not looking for some brilliant person or whatever. And I would say just from the little I've gotten to know you through listening to your message and even meeting you now and just some of the things you've written, you probably could classify yourself as a brilliant person. I think that's all right.

That feels a little weird, but—

Yeah, well, you know, I'll classify you. I appreciate it. Identify you as that, so I'll do it for you so you don't have to. Well, that's really great to get to hear some of your story, and I know that that is something— as far as co-pastoring, I am seeing that more and more, and it's kind of a refreshing thing to see that happening. And probably in some ways you and your husband felt like you were a little bit trailblazing and kind of making it up on some level if you hadn't seen it before. And I wonder if— do you feel that it's a little bit like that in some ways of starting the job as a campus pastor as well, being that you're new into it? Or because I would assume there's not necessarily a manual that says this is what a pastor on a campus of a school does. I'm sure there is to an extent in the job description, but I'm sure a lot of it too is, is let's figure out what this is all about.

Yeah, it really is. And I've talked to many, if not most, of the Nazarene chaplains that I know, just because that's my denominational circle. So I've talked to several of them and they've been extremely helpful, but I've come to realize every single school does chapel and spiritual formation very differently. I mean, it looks different, meets on different days, has different requirements and all those things. But then you come into this particular, my particular circumstance, and they're really seeking a new vision for what this office does apart from the chaplain, which has this kind of sense of I am occupying an office of a transient community. That's really what a chaplain is, you know, a police force or in the military, like I am occupying an office, but my parish is constantly shifting and changing. And that is true of a university. A university campus and that the population is constantly in motion, like you only have these students for 4 years and that's always changing. But there is the sense of this, of wanting to shift to this pastoral role, meaning this personal journeying, co-journeying image, the shepherding and guiding, really a biblical image and say, we want someone that is going to pastor us, who is going to love us, who is going to invest in us. And so they really latched onto that language and wanted to reclaim that because that's what they long for, for their students and for faculty as well to create a culture and to deepen the culture which already exists in Mount Vernon. It's a very hospitable place, but to continue to deepen that culture that says, you come here and you will be seen and you'll be heard and you'll have this partner in this journey with the campus pastor and our team and all these faculty who just invest so deeply into their students above and beyond what's asked of them. And so that's what I'm going to lean into. And the ego calls, the ego is always calling saying, hey, you should get a PhD or you should do this or look at all the the power and the hierarchical structures that exist in higher ed. And this morning I had the opportunity to meet with a student for coffee who just wanted to talk about her story. And in that moment I just was so just reminded by the spirit, this is your work. This student sitting in front of you right here, she is your work. Yes, you're doing programming. Yes, you're learning about higher ed. Yes, you're doing research. And yes, you're helping with this and all the trappings of the office.. But really sitting across from this student, getting to engage with her, hear her story, to affirm the hand of God in her life, that's, that's what I want to do. And so that is helping me maintain my focus and set aside all the other things that might distract from the heart of what it is to be a campus pastor.

Well, that's terrific. I think you're going to do a wonderful job with that, and I'm so glad to hear that you're going to be really not that far away. Mount Vernon is actually on my district, so I get there usually once or twice a year throughout the year. So I'll look forward to saying hello in person, and, and I'm glad you'll get to be working closely with— well, actually, I was going to say my old friend, but he was my professor first— and Dr. Henry Spaulding. Yes, from— yeah, he was my prof back at Trevecco when I was a religion student there years ago. And so I— you, you've got some wonderful people.

Yes, I really do.

Well, I'm intrigued, and I want to know more about your book, which is releasing in October. And again, for those of you listening today, the name of Stephanie's book, it's called Signs of Life: Resurrecting Hope from Ordinary Loss. And of course, I first saw the book, and I showed my wife the title, and she said, well, maybe she's inspired by Stephen Curtis Chapman, Signs of Life. The old— for those of you that are old enough to know that album, I did not think of that. Yeah, I figured not. Very few, uh, think of Stephen Chris Chapman the way I do, but you know, that's how it goes. But I am interested, and I want to talk to you a bit more about what you've written. I'm intrigued by the title Resurrecting Hope from Ordinary Loss, and I was thinking about just even that term ordinary loss as opposed to maybe other kinds of losses that we would encounter in life. Talk to us a little bit about maybe why you gave the book that title and that subtitle, and why ordinary loss was something you focused on as opposed to, let's say, extraordinary loss or some specific thing.

So I kind of came into this whole— this, this book situation accidentally. I just got one of those, like, a random email from an editor one day that said, hey, I've been reading your blogs and I read your articles, and have you ever thought about a book? And I honestly, to goodness, same as the the chaplain thinks like, "Mm, pretty sure you have the wrong person. I'm not capable of this." But as we began to dialogue, I realized there was kind of a seed, this idea kind of germinating in my heart, and that was the idea of the resurrection and what it has to say to like our regular life. 10, it was over 10 years ago now, probably, we encountered just a really, just a yucky church conflict. It was that we had been pastors about 18 months and this conflict just was really painful. And we were trying to work through it with this family and then our church superior, our district superintendent came in to help us with that, navigate that. And he asked this question that has been just burned into my brain and has never left me alone. He said, "Okay, we've, you know, laid it all on the table, all of our grievances and our frustrations and our anger, and now we have to ask ourselves, is the resurrection enough to move us into a new future?" And I remember thinking, "What are you talking about? Like, it's September. What does the resurrection have to say to me? It's not Easter. We talk about that when we're talking about forgiveness of sins and, you know, all those things. What does resurrection have to do with anything?" That's a good question.. And so, since that time, that idea has just been just germinating in the, like, the soil of my soul, you might say. And the question that I have been asking is, what does the resurrection have to say? Because Jesus has been raised, because Christ is truly Lord, and the Kingdom of God is breaking into this world, what does that mean for my life? And I am not a person who has experienced miscarriage, or cancer, or a tragic death. Like, I do not have these massive, major losses, but I have a lot a lot of what I originally termed as ordinary, what I call deaths, like things in my life that I feel like they have— that what the future that I imagined, you know, completely changed and it felt like a death, or this hope that I had placed in this, what my vocation was going to look like. And then there was this extremely painful conflict and it felt like hope itself had died. And I talk about the death of one's image, this image that I have cultivated, this curated of myself as this being, this high-achieving, successful person, and then just being crippled by depression and anxiety. And how each chapter wrestles with that. So, there's this ordinary death and this ordinary loss of my future, or my plans, or my image of myself, or even one chapter is called "The Death of Beauty," this wrestling with really painful issues of body image, none of which are extraordinary. I don't have an eating disorder, but at the same time, they— it still hurts, and I still feel the brokenness of that. And it's just these ordinary losses that all of us carry around in our souls and even bear on our bodies. And I asked this question, like, I'm like, "Where are you in the midst of these ordinary hurts, God?" And so, the kind of the conclusion that I'm coming to in each chapter is in the midst of this death, God is bringing forth these small, these signs of life that seem to emerge out of, you know, the ashes of what once was. So, for the example, I put out a sample chapter recently on my website, and it talked about the death of zeal, how I was this zealous, called-to-the-ministry person, just on fire for God. But that all those fire metaphors, but found myself fizzling out by the time I even got to college. And it's like, something is wrong, something is missing. And realizing that I was, you know, idolizing more of the values of evangelicalism and some things like that than I was truly understanding the kingdom, the kingdom breaking in, moving away from attractionalism into, you know, true community formation. And so, in the midst of the death of my zeal from that burnt-out place, God was able to bring forth a different kind of faithfulness that was rooted not in the energy and the enthusiasm of my own pride-driven zeal, but rather in the zeal of the Lord Almighty who shall accomplish this, you know, as it says in Isaiah. And so, it just— every chapter wrestles with these losses and these— this what felt like such painful deaths in me, and teasing out or searching for with nothing maybe but hope and on a prayer to say, "God, where is the sign of life? Like, where are you bringing about resurrection in me?" and through me in the midst of nothing showy, but it still hurts. And God has been so faithful to just do a good work in me through the writing of this book. So, man, if somebody else reads it, that is just a bonus, because the Lord has done some transformative work in me through this wrestling with these ordinary losses, and finding God's resurrection power at work in the midst of that.

Well, I think that's a wonderful explanation for the book. And what I'd like to do so listeners can get a better idea, some of the bullet points that you had sent me that are really about some of the things you've written about, I'd like to share those and then we'll pick a few of them out maybe to discuss in the time that we have left today. But here are some of the things that you have written about and are about to be published in this book. The first is something that you did you did already talk about quite a bit, resurrection hope in the face of disappointment, failure, and uncertainty. And, and by the way, I think that's a great thing for us to be able to focus on. I think we often lose sight that every Sunday when we come together to worship, it is a celebration of the resurrection. And I think at times we do forget that that is really the point of our story. It really is what makes a difference in everything we do. So I'm so glad that taken time to write about that. But you also write about the call to ministry and vocational shifts, which you've talked a little bit about already on the show today. You also write about where is the resurrection hope in a church that seems too far gone? And I do want to come back to that one especially. That one really, I think, is going to be of interest to a lot of our listeners. And then navigating mental illness in ministry, which is a really an important topic for us to handle. Modeling healthy vulnerability from the pulpit and through the written word, something that I think many of us who, who are in the pulpit from time to time, or even all the time, need to figure out that and what that looks like. And you also write about tending to one's inner life while ministering, and I think that that's an important thing too. There's so much richness rich topics that you're writing about in this book, and I think it's going to be really great for a lot of people. But I know that I, as I'm reading through it, I think I could see a lot of pastors really benefiting from this book. And I know it's probably going to reach a lot further than that, but it is hard to find sometimes books that ministers— as you know, it's sometimes hard to find ones that are really specifically for those who are in ministry. A lot of times you find books books that are from ministers to people, but it's hard to find ones that can relate. And it sounds like every topic that you have, at least that you've sent to me in these bullet points, are really important things that we encounter in ministry. Let's go back for just a moment to one of the things that, that you had mentioned in the bullet points: where is resurrection hope in a church that seems too far gone? I think, I think if there's anything that many pastors will relate to as they listen listen to this show, a lot of pastors probably do find themselves in a ministry context where at times they do feel like this place is just too far gone, you know, and yet at the same time I'm sensing a call that I haven't been released from this place. I don't know exactly what the next step forward is. Talk to us a little bit about that. I know there's going to be a lot in that chapter, I'm that you'll be able to cover it all today, but wet our whistle a little bit for some of the things maybe that you've written.

Well, that— I wanted to title the book— that I don't want to title the chapter that I wrote on that, I wanted to call it The Death of Resurrection Itself, but my editor thought that was weird, so I ended up calling it The Death of Revival. And so I were in a church context that we just faced a lot of challenges, some of which were our fault. We were young and, you know, maybe arrogant and had a lot of growing to do, but there There were also some significant dysfunction and some power abuses that were happening at that time. I remember my husband and I, we were there for 6 years, and there would be times where my husband felt like, "Nope, it's time to go. This is too hard, and we need to move on." I would be like, "No, my spirit is just not— I'm not at peace with that." Then a few months later, I'd be like, "Yep, nope, let's go, pack our bags." He's like, "No, wait. I'm sorry, but the spirit—" I'm like, "No!" In a way, we bound to one another and bound to that church. We sought to just be faithful to that vow of stability as best we were able. And so, we felt like a lot of times during that journey that we were doing all the things that everyone said to do. You know, we were involved in the local school. We were trying to feed hungry children. We were coaching basketball teams. We were volunteering in the local health— we were doing community engagement and coming every Friday at the crack of dawn. We were walking around the sanctuary and praying. Those prescriptive ideas that people give you, say this will be the magic bullet that revitalizes your church to look like X, right? And in the midst of that, feeling a great deal of loss and feeling very wounded by the church as I sought to just give myself as best I could, but also experiencing a lot of— I don't use the word abuse lightly, but some really unkind treatment during that that process that was extremely damaging, and just damage to my soul. And so, in the midst of that, asking, like, "God, like, you have called us to this place. What is going on?" And realizing at some point, and I think I probably realized this retrospectively, even as I was writing it, not so much as I was living it, but realizing that in some sense, I had made this revival, or this resurrection of this congregation into an idol itself. That having a church that looked a certain way, that had these certain stats, that had this certain story of we just, you know, underdog succeeds, this great American narrative, that I wanted that story more perhaps than I sought faithfulness. And I don't think I was being unfaithful, but I think I was truly bound to this narrative of success in such a way that just almost paralyzed me as I felt like a failure constantly, constantly felt like I was failing to do what I'd been called to to do, and realizing I think I'd probably made an idol of congregational success, however we want to define that, and realizing that that had become such a burden on my soul and really had made me extremely sensitive and constantly feeling like a failure in that context. And so, the work that the Lord had to do in me as I, you know, we left that context and went to a new church, eventually, as we both felt released by the Spirit, you know, that language, I very much resonate with that because it's true. We waited, we waited so long for the Spirit to really, you know, untether our hearts from that place and went to the next church and thought, you know, everything was fine. We're in this healthy church, they love us. And I still had a stomachache every time I went to board meeting, but the Lord, He was healing that in me. And then I was realizing, as the chapter kind of talks about a little bit, it was this from that Philippians 2 passage where it talks about most translations say, even though Jesus was was in the form of God, He, you know, gave Himself over to death. But this one particular author I was reading for my sermon research said, it should not be even though He was God, He did this, but because He was God, He handed Himself over to death. And realizing, you know, probably for the, you know, 100th time, but in a new way, that it wasn't something contrary to God's nature, that He gave Himself over for us and for our salvation, that because He was God, He did this thing. And so, as I as I think about that, as I'm reflecting in my office about that, I realize that this is not just what God has done for me. This is not just the means of my salvation. It is also the method by which I am to live. And so, if because He was God, He poured Himself out, so too do I pour myself out for the church, and not because I'm a slave to some narrative of success. I pour myself out because that is the example I've been given by Christ. I pour myself out because that is the call all, and that the Lord does not forget. He does not— I'm not hidden from His sight, and my faithfulness is offered up to Him as an offering. And so, still something that I truly have to embrace and re-embrace over and over, as I am so consumed sometimes by culture's narrative of success. But something that the Lord had to remind me, like, this whole success narrative and this revival and resurrection story that we all want to write books about and sell a million hobbies, don't let that become an idol. Like, the true work is faithfulness. And as I look back at that church, I think of the people whose lives were transformed. It wasn't some, "Oh my word, 1,000 people are now coming to my rural Missouri church." But I remember a single mom who had felt so rejected by God, and who found love and acceptance and realized that she too was the beloved of God in the midst of the choices that she made. And there was a man who was terminally ill and who had nothing to live for. His wife couldn't stand him, he had no friends, and yet he came to the church and found that he was welcomed as he was. And I found his— saw his disposition change from this gray pallor to just this illuminated face. I think of the teenagers that were so broken and isolated and alone and how they found community in our church, in our house basement, as we just gathered and talked about the Sermon on the Mount. And so, all of those moments, even though they seem so small and so meaningless at the time, were signs of resurrection life among us, but I didn't have the eyes to see see, because I was so consumed by this narrative, this false narrative of success and revival, when God's resurrection power was at work all along. So that was an example of God kind of convicting me and unveiling my eyes and calling me forward to a new path of faithfulness that mimics not the path of success that culture would suggest, but rather this pouring oneself out as our God has on our behalf.

Well, and isn't it interesting how so often, just because of the way that everything seems to be focused on church growth and ministry models, you know, so often we often do think we're not doing the good work unless we are reaching the masses in some huge way. And yet I think if we were to stop back and again take a breath, read some of the gospel and some of the parables of Jesus And we do have stories like when Jesus tells us about the good shepherd who leaves the 99 to go after that one. And I think so much of our ministry context, we would probably be a lot healthier and maybe more realistic if we did understand that sometimes it is about ministering to the one or the two or the three, you know, sometimes over the masses. And it could very well be that is the person that we are called to our particular place to minister to at that time. And as you were talking, which you did a wonderful job, and I didn't mean to chuckle when you said you, you know, getting stomachaches going to board meeting. I only chuckle because I can relate and have been there before. But I do think about, and I hope you'll take this as a compliment, It reminds me of Eugene Peterson a bit as I hear you talk about, in some of the things that I hear passionate in your heart. And he wrote a book years and years ago. It was really a book on the Psalms that dealt with the Psalms of ascent called A Long Obedience in the Same Direction. And that was based off of a quote by Nietzsche that said, you know, the essential thing in heaven on earth is that there should be a long obedience in 'in the same direction.' And doesn't that just so well describe pastoral ministry in some of those days when it is hard to put one foot in front of the other and you kind of wonder, 'Are we really making a difference?' But God has called us to faithfulness and to that long obedience. And so it excites me just hearing about some of the things that you have written about and sharing some of your experience. Experiences, and I appreciate you taking time to do that today. Well, I asked you to come on and talk for about a half hour with me, and we're really just about to the limit. Do you have just a couple more minutes to stay on? Sure, no problem. I don't want to take advantage of your time, but you've been sharing some really wonderful things with us, and I want to make sure that we get everything covered that we need to in the time that we have. And really quickly, if you could, what is your website? Because I did not— before I came on here today, I thought I wrote everything down in my notes and I must have forgotten. Tell us your website where people can find you.

It's just my name, stephanielobdell.com. So just my name. Dot com.

Well, that's probably why I didn't write it down. It was probably so easy to remember and then I forgot. Well, I do want listeners to check it out and I think one of the best ways that we can help guests who come on this show is visit their websites and see see what it is that they're offering. Just in the short time that I've known you, it's been a blessing for me, and I think that people are going to find a lot that interests them just from what you've talked about today. And I want to, if you do have just a few more minutes, if you could— there's so many good topics you write about, it's hard for me to be able to pick just one. So this is really sort of just kind of an appetizer for everybody who's going to read your book here. But I wanted to talk to you about modeling healthy vulnerability from the pulpit and through the written word, because I don't know that that is— I don't know that pastors necessarily feel like they don't want to be vulnerable and they don't want to model that for people, but it can be a real challenge, can't it? And it really can feel like at times— I know many pastors feel like, "Well, I don't have a friend in the world because I have to keep my guard up all the time.", and any friend that I have has got to be outside of the ministry context. And, and I don't know if that's the most healthy way for us to approach. Um, so, so what are some of the— I, I, again, I don't want you to give us the whole chapter, but some of the, the insights that you felt like you, you could share to with us about that? Yeah.

Um, I didn't— my one on in the chapter specifically addressed vulnerability. The, the book is just kind of a, a piece of vulnerability vulnerability in text, really. But I guess I'll just speak a little bit about kind of my experience and how I've come into vulnerability. A number of years ago, I was diagnosed with depression. I was in college at the time when I was originally diagnosed and didn't talk about it. I talked about it some with friends and whatnot, but it really wasn't a huge part of conversation. But as I began to preach, when I, you know, accepted that co-pastor with my husband, I've been— occasionally I would allude to it and just say, this is something that I've struggled with. And some people, most people just kind of politely ignored it. It was a rural context. It wasn't something that was very— people were comfortable speaking about. But behind the scenes, usually secretly or privately, people would come to me and say, "I'm on medication too. Can we talk about that?" And they felt like just the sense, the fact that I had even mentioned it or spoken it aloud meant somehow maybe they weren't disqualified from faith after Many people, particularly in older generations, have been made to feel that to struggle, to deal with mental illness, depression, all those things were indicators of a spiritual failure and that somehow they were broken, they were disqualified, you know, something that needed to be hidden. Members of my own family from generations back were made to feel that they should be ashamed of their mental health struggles. Because there must be sin in your life, right? You can't be a Christian and be sad. And so that was the framework that many people were operating from. Well, when I came to Idaho and was pastor there for 4 and a half years, I had a significant relapse in my depression, so much so that I had to seek kind of an ex— not an extreme treatment, but it was unfamiliar to many. It was involved this giant magnet, I say, that kind of zapped my brain. It wasn't exactly— that's not the scientific term, but Essentially, that's how it felt. And so, I just shared really publicly about that and said, "I'm undergoing this treatment. I've been really struggling and nothing on my normal kind of self-care treatments are working, and this is where I'm at." And my church, instead of ignoring it or brushing it under the rug, they brought me dinner every night for an entire month. They just brought me casseroles after casseroles. And it's not an exaggeration to say that dozens of people would come to me, you know, parishioners or other pastors or friends and say, "I feel this way too. Can we talk about it?" Or, "Because you said this, it doesn't fix my problem, but I don't feel so alone." And I realized over and over again that this wasn't a unique experience, but that so many of us have felt broken or inadequate or depressed or ashamed. And we're all feeling some of these same things, but none of us want to say it out loud because what will happen And I've received vast majority of response from the time when I've chosen to share pieces of my story that have been hurt or of my own struggle with mental health. It has, instead of being something that has disqualified me, rather it has been something that has opened doors for me to engage with people more deeply because they see and recognize that I'm a fellow journeyer alongside them, not mastered this spiritual kung fu, and that, that some things, even when we love Jesus with all of our heart, sometimes depression still lingers, and that no amount of confession or prayer or pithy Pinterest verses are going to fix what hurts. And so that's, that's the practice that I began. Some people have pushed back against it, usually older people or people in positions of power who feel like it portrays me as angry or too exposed. But that's a risk I'm willing to take to say if that opens the door to others feeling not so isolated, then I'm I'm going to persist. Even when I interviewed for this job in Mount Vernon, I'm sitting around the table with all these professors and doctorates and whatever, and they ask, so what is your area of growth? What's a growth point? AKA, what's your weaknesses? You know, where are you not so strong? And I said, well, sometimes I can have a tough game in terms of I can say hard things that need to be said, but oftentimes I really desperately want people to like me. And so after I say hard things or have difficult conversations, sometimes I go back to my office and I cry because I feel alone. And I'm like, I can't believe I just said this out loud, first of all. And second of all, I look around the table and everyone is nodding their head. It's like, it's subconsciously, not even necessarily realizing they were nodding. And I realize in that moment, we are in the same boat. All of us struggle with some of these pieces, whether it looks the same or not, of things that we're ashamed of or things that we're struggling with or vulnerability or soft pieces or parts of our heart that have been wounded. And here we are just rolling around pretending like we're okay and it's doing nobody any be good. And so I don't suggest to pastors, "Hey, get up and air your dirty laundry." I think that's inappropriate. I think that's unwise. But I think there are ways to express vulnerability in healthy ways, to acknowledge I don't have all of the answers, and that's okay. To acknowledge that some things are really, really hard, and that's okay. To acknowledge that, you know what, sometimes God feels really far away. I'm clinging to him in the darkness, but right now I don't even see his face. And there are times when that is appropriate. Everyone needs to gauge that for themselves in terms of what they are comfortable with and all those things. And I recognize there is a risk and some people take advantage of one another person's vulnerability. But for me, the payout far, far surpasses the risk in the relationship, the depth of relationship I've been able to have, the ability I've been able to speak into people's lives in a unique way. I wouldn't trade I wouldn't trade that. And I don't want to be alone anymore. And when I am honest and when I say I don't have this all figured out and I'm learning, especially in this job right now, oh my goodness, I find that, I find community in a new way because I've allowed myself to be seen as who I truly am.

That is some strong stuff, Stephanie. And you know what? I think Mount Vernon made a wise choice with you.

Well, that remains to be seen, but we'll do my best.

Well, I think you have exhibited today that there is so much good insight that the Lord has given you and has helped you with over the years. And I've just appreciated so much what you've been able to share. And you know what? We've talked about your book today, Signs of Life: Resurrection Directing Hope Out of Ordinary Losses. We haven't even had time to talk about your book Linton Postcards, which is coming out with, with my old friend Jesse Middendorf. Yeah, so I'm excited about that, and that's going to be coming out towards December. But I want everybody that's listening today, do go to stephanielobdell.com, and I want to spell your last name so people know. Stephanie is probably the, the common spelling with PH, but Lobdell is L-O-B-D-E-L-L. And you can go on, I believe, on Amazon and pre-order the book and go to everywhere that you can pre-order books, I guess, to find things. Most of our listeners don't need me to tell them where to go to buy books. They're pretty well, but we will make sure that in the show notes at voicesinmyheadpodcast.com that we will have links to your website and links to where they can preorder copies of your books. And I'm just so grateful that we had the chance today to have some time to hear from you and to hear of the good work that you're doing. I just feel a sense of pride in Mount Vernon and some of our Nazarene institutions and the way that they have— they've hired you for this job that I know is going to bear a lot of fruit in the life of students students and beyond, because you really do have— really not just, as you said, it's a sort of a congregation that's constantly in flux when you're working on a campus ministry. But I wish you all the best, and I want to thank you so much for reaching out and taking time to be here today. So is there anything we've missed that you'd like us to just hit on real fast before we close the show? No, I think you've done a wonderful job.

Thank you very much for the conversation.

Well, it's been such a pleasure to have you. And as I say to my guests week after week, Stephanie, thank you so much for being one of the Voices in My Head this week. Thank you. Today's podcast is brought to you by Audible. Get a free audiobook download and 30-day free trial at audibletrial.com/voicesinmyhead. That's audibletrial.com/voicesinmyhead. Over 180,000 titles to choose from for your iPhone, Android, Kindle, or MP3 player. That's audibletrial.com/voicesinmyhead. Give it a try today! Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at RickLeeJames.com, where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, follow my blog, and even schedule me for a concert or a speaking engagement. Better yet, even a book signing in your neighborhood. You can find all that and more at RickLeeJames.com. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, The more visible this podcast will be online. And now for the benediction: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. God bless you, and thank you for listening to Voices in My Head.