Voices In My Head Podcast Episode #289: The Gospel According To Superman with Rev. John T. Galloway

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Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer-songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is your source for discussions on music, literature, movies, pop culture, theology, and more. Now sit back, relax, and listen to the the latest episode of The Voices in My Head podcast. And don't forget to let the voices in your head be heard by following me on Twitter @RickLeeJames and sharing your thoughts about today's show. Welcome back to The Voices in My Head podcast. As always, I am your host, Rick Lee James. Well, today my guest is Reverend John T. Galloway. 45 years ago this year, Reverend Galloway published a book called The Gospel According to Superman.— a book which brings the true message of Christ back into focus by contrasting the humanity and vulnerability of Jesus with the invulnerable embodiment of our own fantasies and man-made gods embodied in the book by the character of Superman. The Gospel According to Superman is more theology than comic book, and having recently read it myself, I can attest that like all good theology, it holds up. Very well. Reverend Galloway, welcome to Voices in My Head today. Thank you.

Good to be with you.

Well, I am very glad to, in a sense, I guess, call you out of retirement to have this conversation today. I came across your book as a used copy, and it's not in print anymore that I know of. But as I was telling you before our conversation happened, somebody ought to really pick that up because I found a copy on Amazon today for over $100. So It must be like, you know, printed gold at this point.

So I don't think they pay royalties on that kind of transaction, unfortunately. That's, uh, that's— I'd be glad to receive it.

That's right, I'm sure you would. Well, I'd like to start by just talking about you. Um, I'm interested in your ministry and in who you are as a person and what you've done over the years. And I was interested as I was reading a little bit of your bio that Like myself, you grew up a preacher's kid. And, uh, did you think when you were growing up that you were going to follow in your father's footsteps as a minister?

Not necessarily. If I could have, I would have become a professional athlete, but, um, God did not bless me with a body that allowed that to happen. Uh, so, uh, I then thought about going into the law Went to college thinking I was going to go to law school after it, and, um, along the way, as I couldn't escape the call and, uh, felt that whatever it was, if I weren't somehow preaching the good news, I was, uh, not doing what I was born to do. So that's what I pursued.

Well, that's wonderful. Well, I'm certainly glad you did, and following your life a little bit. You received your higher education after, after high school at Princeton University and then the seminary. I'd love for you to ask you, how would you describe Princeton's influence on kind of making you the minister that you would become?

Um, those are two— they're across the street from each other, not related to each other, but bear the same name. Princeton University was a fascinating and humbling experience. I came out of high school thinking I was one of the smarter people in the world. I came out of the university sensing that I was probably one of the stupidest people in the world. Oh, um, went from top of the class to near the bottom of the class. Discovered, uh, primarily through testing of my children, that they inherited from me a reading disability. And I think sometimes you can go through life and push yourself harder if you don't know you have the reading disability, and I didn't. All I knew was I couldn't keep up with the reading. And, um, Princeton University will hit you with hundreds of pages to read every week, um, and it is a very, uh, rigorous and challenging thing. And I did the best I could, uh, to get through and somehow did. Very, very good experience. And there were— it's interesting, in a wholly secular environment, the ways in which some very solid evangelical fellowships develop, and small groups, various denominations, independent groups. And I would frequent one of those, then went on to seminary. And, uh, was something of a rebel. Um, almost got kicked out a couple times, but, uh, I, I think that was an important period also. Your, your rebellious periods can be very, uh, very important. Sure. Went from, went from there to being a youth minister in Greenwich, Connecticut, as the drug culture was sweeping through. And that was a fascinating period of time. They had the money to get it. They had access to getting into New York and getting all they wanted. But they were brilliant kids, great kids, good families, and I worked with a good staff and learned immensely being at the First Presbyterian Church in Greenwich, Connecticut, a wonderful church. Hmm.

Well, and then from there, you know, you talked about your time as a youth minister there in the '60s, and then at one point you became the head of staff at First Presbyterian Church in York, Pennsylvania, and you say that you succeeded, among other predecessors, one of your heroes, Ernie Campbell. I wonder if you could tell the listeners today about who Ernie Campbell was and why he was such a great influence upon your life.

Ernie Campbell was one of the greatest preachers of the 20th century. He went from York, as I recall, out to Ann Arbor, and from there he became pastor of the Riverside Church in New York City. His sermons were published, uh, every week, and he was probably— for a period, he was succeeded by William Sloane Coffin, um, who's also an above-average preacher, I would say, the best ever made. Um, but for a time, Ernie was probably, as I say, the most plagiarized preacher in the Western world. He had certain sermons that were probably preached 1,000 times across America., by different preachers, never giving him credit, I'm sure. Um, just a tremendous challenge to, uh, follow somebody that good. And to, uh, you can't, uh, slough off. You have to, uh, bring out your A material every week and pray that you can have A material the next week. So yeah, so I'm sure it was a challenge.

I'm sure that would be quite a challenge to follow, but But boy, I'm sure working as hard as you did, I can tell by your writing, you must have done some wonderful sermons yourself over the years.

Well, one thing I discovered in succeeding Ernie Campbell is I couldn't plagiarize him anymore. Because they were getting his sermons too. Well, there's a lot of—

yeah, you don't have that luxury of, a lot of preachers say, of steal and steal boldly, you know, when it comes to that. Well, one other fascinating thing before we get into your book Just continuing your journey in ministry, you were also a minister at the Fox Chapel Presbyterian Church in Pittsburgh. And while you were there, I wonder if you could tell us this story, because the steelworkers there tried to disrupt your services. And you say that some, some very interesting and wonderful things happened as a result of these times because you listened and responded to these steelworkers. Could you tell us a little bit about that story?

It was a fascinating time in the early '80s. Um, national news was covering the fact that on, I think, Easter Sunday— my recollection is it was '83 or something like that, 1983— they went to the Shadyside Presbyterian Church, a wonderful church in Pittsburgh. Um, and they were— Shadyside was on a, uh, a very nice, uh, community in the city near the University of Pittsburgh., and they sat on a city block and had the city block to themselves. And, um, steelworkers paraded in on Easter and, um, took over the service. An absolute shock to everybody. Nobody saw it coming. Um, here you are on Easter Sunday in a wonderful church, and down the aisle come 30 or 40, uh, big old steelworkers and, uh, take over the service. And, uh, it was a difficult confrontation, um, and they said they were going to come back. And, uh, so they— but then so the next week when they were going to come back, uh, the whole block was rimmed shoulder to shoulder with Pittsburgh police. National news picked that up. Presbyterian Church with police keeping the demonstrators out. I don't blame them because of the way the steelworkers had behaved, but they came announcing on both Sundays they were there that their intention was to come out and hit the Fox Chapel Church. I forget what it was, Mother's Day they were going to hit, or someday. They, they announced the date that they were coming, anticipating that if Shadyside brought out the police with all the corporate executives in our church. We'd bring out the Marines. And so they came out en masse, and they— our congregation, of course, packed the house because this is going to be good theater. So if you want to increase attendance, announce that there's going to be a demonstration. I mean, we had, uh, we had to have chairs to get the people in. Wow. And, um, the police were there, though the network television was there. It was It was theater of the absurd. And steelworkers came in and said to our ushers, you know, "Are you with the FBI? Where's the FBI?" 'Cause they anticipated that we would have that. We had nobody. My theory is, as I might have said already, if I hear 40 men are gonna come as first-time visitors, I say praise the Lord. I don't care if they're gonna demonstrate or what they're gonna do. They're doing what the majority of men in my church weren't doing even on that Sunday. They were coming to church. Right. You can work with people if they come to church. We figured that they're there and we're going to welcome them. They're first-time visitors. They're men, which is hard to get in a Presbyterian church, and we're going to treat them with respect, which baffled them completely. They paraded down the center aisle and then they got up and stood across the front of the congregation and looked menacingly at people, thinking that everybody would be terrified. I knew enough of the Saul Alinsky strategy and had been on some of their activities in the past, and I knew that the whole thing they were doing was to goad us into doing the absurd and to bring out of us the worst that was in us to demonstrate what that was. And I was bound and determined to show them the best that is in us. And it was a fantastic standoff. He got maybe 600 people sitting out there, and he's steelworkers standing across and they're staring at each other and I'm trying to lead a worship service. It was just, you know, one of those things you'd love to relive. It was, it was kind of a fun moment when you come right down to it and gave us an opportunity to witness to who we are. And I can remember about 20 minutes into the service, one of the steelworkers just kind of turned around and looked, looked back up at me and at the choir in kind of an absolute amazement. He had no idea that these people in that community would actually welcome people such as they were. And, um, so they could say, could we speak to the congregation? And I said, certainly. So they came up and the guy got up, basically apologized for being there, um, so that they hoped that we would take seriously their plight. And they, uh, they left. And so as they walked out, I said to the congregation, I guess they've heard me preach before. That kind of relieved the tension, and we went on with the rest of the service. We then met with them, and that was the turning point. We asked them to come in, and they thought it was kind of a show, and they thought there'd be cameras there. And no, just a private meeting with our mission committee. Um, let us, you know, let us hear what you're up against. Uh, you know, you've got a problem, you've got needs. We happen to be the Church of Jesus Christ, and we also happen to be people who have some connections. If you got some problems, we might have some answers. Let's behind closed doors talk about this thing. And, um, and a big old steelworker starts to cry. He can't get health care for his kids anymore. Anymore. And I tell you, that touches your heart. And if that doesn't touch your heart, you're dead. Um, and when this guy starts to, to, uh, tear up and get emotional and talk about his children, um, and he said, I can't go anywhere, there's nowhere I can— my kid gets sick, I can't take him to the hospital, I can't afford health care, what am I going to do? And, uh, so we had some connections with the Blue Cross of Western Pennsylvania, and bless their hearts, they were there, they responded.. And, uh, the, the problem an insurance company has is you've got to have a market and you gotta have people who can pay the premiums. Steelworkers can't pay the premiums. They've got the need, but they can't pay the premiums. So I said to the Blue Cross, you, uh, you get a product, I'll go to the unions, we'll get you customers, I'll go to Fox Chapel, and we'll get you money. Uh, and they launched a caring program for children, which I think was the first step in the national healthcare debate. Wow. And it went from there. And then other Blue Cross— and Blue Cross is to be thanked. Um, they stepped up. They could have said, oh, we don't do that kind of thing. But no, they didn't. Blue Cross was there to help us. And, uh, so kudos to Blue Cross. They're the heroes in this thing. They developed the product, uh, they put out a good product, and, uh, it went across the state and across the country with the caring program for children that launched the healthcare debate.

Wow, and what a wonderful story of the kingdom of God in action.

That is exactly a powerful story, and it brought together all of the best of America. Yeah, and, uh, it's the kind of thing you don't see too often, and I was just kind of privileged to be a part of it.

That is terrific. Well, thank you for, for sharing that story before we get into your book, because I felt like that was worth hearing, uh, as much as anything else that we were going to talk about today. I, I love hearing stories like that.

And, and I think it's what the church needs to do. Instead of talking at the community, they need to listen to the community. Um, we have resources, we have a strong faith, we have a great God, and the Holy Spirit can work through us to respond to those needs. So let's listen.

Yes, amen to that. You're exactly right. Well, let's talk a bit about your book while I have you here today, The Gospel According to Superman. Interestingly enough, Superman and superheroes are big business right now, as I'm sure you know. But in 1973, when you wrote this book, I think it was a different story. Superman the movie wouldn't come out for, I think, another 5 years after your book was published. And you admit in the book that you had thought Superman was gone, sort of an icon of the past.

So I mentioned— And I think you really did, through the late '60s and early '70s, Superman was gone. And I think that kind of a cynicism was in, heroism was out. And we knew what we were against, but we didn't know what we were for. Right. And there's something to be said for knowing what you're against, but your message of criticism is stronger if you know what you're for.

Yeah, in addition, well, that's true. So, so what made you pick Superman, uh, in this time to— when you decided to write a book like this, which really does have some strong theology in it?

Well, it came out of a part of the, uh, underside of my nature is I have a quirky way of looking at nature and take very few things, very few things seriously., and my first year in seminary, uh, there was a course on, uh, writing a paper on, uh, major personality changes in literature. And so people were writing on these people who had conversion experiences, went from being a drug-addicted, uh, person to being a saint, and so forth and so on, which is what the professor wanted. So I wrote on Clark Kent and the change that he went through in becoming Superman. That got me fascinated with Superman and who he was and so forth and so on. As I say, my beginning in ministry in Greenwich, Connecticut was Bud Collier, who had been the voice of Superman on the radio. Yeah, so cool. He helped me get back to trace it as to how it was a couple guys getting together and they had a projected hero, uh, and they began to do it. The Superman is kind of the projection of our wishes. Yeah, um, the inner us that wishes we weren't bound by all these weaknesses. What a great person I could be if it weren't for the fact that I have dyslexia, which I do. Um, and attention deficit, which I have on steroids. And so, uh, man, I could be something if I just could step into a phone booth and get rid of these problems and come out as a man of steel. And, um, it's, it's kind of in all of us. And, uh, so that's, that's projected. Were I to rewrite the book, I'd emphasize that more. Um, as it was, I talked about, uh I don't remember what all I talked about, but how we have this wish fulfillment of magic answers and magic power. It's a thought I think all of us need to spend some time wrestling with, you know. Yeah. Isn't anybody out there that thinks he or she is everything they ought to be? That's why we have prayers of confession in worship.

Oh, sure. Well, that's interesting to me too, and I enjoyed reading about that, that you knew Bud Collier. A little bit. And I enjoy still, they have some podcasts where you can still listen to the Superman radio shows. And so from time to time, I'll still listen to him. That's just a very, that's a neat connection in itself. Now in your book, now I'm going to, I know it's been a while since you wrote it. So I've made a few talking points about some things that I really enjoyed in your book. And maybe we can just discuss them a little bit.

But one thing that I really found— You were the one that enjoyed something in it. I wonder how it worked. I'm the one.

It was me. I think a lot of people would enjoy it if they were able to find a copy today. But in the book, you reference Tertullian and his quote that says, almost the greater part of mankind derive their knowledge of God from dreams. And as you interpret what Tertullian meant was that most people worship a deity produced in their own dreams. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna quote you here from your book. Uh, gods produced by the dreams of the majority have little resemblance to the God of Scripture. And you also said that Superman is the product of human wishes. So my question for you is, do you think that might be why superheroes have gotten so popular again right now? All the movies and the books. And maybe it's easier to rush after gods that we imagine than to trust in the immortal, invisible God Only Wise that we sing about. But Is— what are your thoughts on that?

I think we live in a very interesting time. Um, we have a fascinating character in the White House, um, to say the least. We've gone from FDR and Eisenhower and John F. Kennedy to Donald Trump, and, um, we're looking for something. And, um, you combine the fact we have Donald Trump and we have the emptiest bench I have ever seen in political leadership. Um, all my life— and I will tell you how old I am, but, uh, I was born before Pearl Harbor— and, um, I have never seen so few able candidates for President of the United States. Um, I've always— there's always been a— would you want— which of the three able characters would you choose? And, and now I don't know who's out there. Yeah, I don't know who wants that job. Um, the dearth of leadership, uh, makes us vulnerable to a Superman. It makes us vulnerable to, uh, to dangerous leaders. We, we need to be calling more men and women, uh, into, uh, who are really capable into significant leadership in our country, and we're not doing it. Um, I don't know whether you see the same thing yourself, but, but I, I just have never seen such an empty bench. I agree out there. Yeah, I agree. This is frightening and makes us vulnerable, uh, to some wacko that could come along and really get us into trouble. It makes us, uh, understand why people have a fantasy about the superheroes. I would— that there were a superhero who could come in and and help us. America needs to start producing leaders and see politics as a worthy pursuit. We need to be calling the best among us into political leadership. And it doesn't pay as much money as some other professions, and I think we have— one of the problems of worshiping mammon rather than God is that people go into professions for the money rather than following the calling that God is calling us to pursue. And politics is a calling. It's a call to service. It's a call to leadership and vision and to call America to goodness and to call the state to goodness, to call the county to goodness. And we just need people who are committed to doing that. And you're not going to make a million dollars in the gazillion dollars, but you're going to have a good income, you're going to have a say, and you're going to have an influence, and you're going to be a public servant. And that's what Jesus has called us to be. All this does not to be great and lorded over you, but to serve. And I wish we could get people to do that more.

Yeah. And yeah, and you know, by that same token, even for those that that aren't called into maybe a political career, we definitely need a church with the kind of character that can say to those in power, "Thus says the Lord," rather than— you know, I've always used this image, you know, the church seems to lose its power when we'd rather play golf with Pharaoh than say, "Let my people go." And I think, yeah, we need a church that has that kind of empowerment by the Holy Spirit to speak the truth to the power as well. And I think you've said some good things about that today. And we're we're kind of a people who are looking for a Superman to come and save us. And I'm going to reference your, your book again in this next question, because in your book you say that many in the church see Jesus as a kind of Superman, strange visitor from another planet with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men, who disguised as Jesus of Nazareth was not really man at all but remained God himself. And, and since you wrote your book, Superman movies and comic books over the years have been filled with Christ imagery. At one point Superman even dies and then is resurrected in the comics. And even so, you contend in the book that Jesus is not like Superman, and to view him as such is a form of heresy, and you're referring to docetism. So here's the question in all that. Could you talk a bit why you believe thinking about Jesus as a kind of Superman is the wrong approach to viewing who Jesus is.

Uh, yeah, I think where you see it in pastoral care, um, and over my years in ministry, people would, uh, lament angrily that they felt God let them down. And what that meant was they prayed fervently that their loved one would survive Um, I mean, I've been through that myself. My, uh, my wife died of Lou Gehrig's disease. Oh, I'm so sorry. Agonizing, uh, demise. Well, some years ago I remarried, uh, very happily married now. But you go through that, and the churches were gathering, having prayer meetings, laying on of hands. Praying for a miracle. Sometimes the miracle is not the reversing of the inevitable course of things, but finding peace in it. And I think that we miraculously were guided to an inner peace. She died very, very peacefully. She lost her ability to speak speak, lost her ability to move any part of her body, and yet had the joy in her eyes. Wow. And, um, I don't think that would have happened without prayer. Yeah. I also believe that after that, uh, God has led me to another wonderful person. I have a wonderful marriage. Um, it's— life's complicated. Sure. But it does go on if you hang around long enough.

Well, first let me say I am so sorry that your wife, your first wife, went through that and that you went through that with her. And we currently have a person in our church that is dealing with that same disease right now, and I think that's our fourth person from our congregation over the years since I've been here that's had that. And it's such a devastating disease, and so I just wanted to say I'm sorry for suffering that you've experienced there.

Well, do all you can for the person going through it and for his or her loved ones. It's a very, very difficult journey and seems to happen to good people.

That's true. Well, one thing that I really love about what you bring out in the book that you wrote is far from being this superhero that comes in and rescues everybody and saves the day and puts things back into sort of the status quo. Jesus is different in that Jesus is a God who enters into our suffering with us, and that Jesus is a God who is not content to leave us as we were. And you point out in the book several times that Superman doesn't really require anything of the people that he rescues. Superman just comes in, "Help, help, save me!" comes in and rescues them, puts them back, and everything goes back to normal.

Yeah, he's kind of a repairman.

Yeah, sort of a repairman that comes along. But it's interesting how you write about it almost on the other extreme, that the God we see in Jesus comes in and requires more of us, that maybe he has come to be with us in this suffering partially for our own redemption and for our transformation in the midst of things, and that our prayers are not so much about God 'Come and change this thing,' but our prayers are really about us being properly formed into the people of God and allowing God to shape us and mold us in those ways. And I really enjoyed the way that you pointed that out several times actually throughout your book, that it's, it's not the superhero thing that comes to save the day, but what a powerful statement that the God that we worship in Jesus, that we see in the power of the Holy Spirit, is the God who comes to suffer in those times and that can enable you— and we've heard from your stories today already. We've heard your stories of the way that your congregation, through I believe the power of the Holy Spirit, was able to help these steelworkers who, you know, without God in that circumstance, who knows what would have happened and even what violence may have occurred in those times. Or the way that you have ministered over the years and then even with your wife in those moments of her seeing the glimmer of Christ in her eyes and the way that Jesus enters into our situations and into our sufferings and begins to change us. So Superman, and I'm going to quote you one more time in the book before we're done today. In the book you say, Superman gets people out of predicaments. He rescues them from places they do not wish to be. And he never tries to bring about any reordering in the lives of the persons with whom Clark Kent must associate from day to day. Personality sameness is an important part of the continuing episodes because personality sameness is something of value in human nature. So, in essence, we want a Superman to rescue us because Superman puts things back like they were. But that's rarely the encounter that we have when we encounter Jesus Christ, because to meet with Jesus is to meet with his Holy Other. I wonder if you would be able to speak to this for just a moment, about the way that Jesus actually, rather than rescuing us, actually many times causes us to lose control. I wonder if you could speak to that moment.

To be a faithful minister, to be a faithful Christian, to be a faithful church is dangerous business. It really is. I worry about the American church because what we do is a market survey and develop a product that will sell. Um, we have a Lord that may or may not sell but is Lord, and it calls us to make some changes. Uh, Jesus calls us not to become our true self but to repent, calls us to a new direction, calls us to new life, new power. Think new thoughts. Um, and the, uh, the danger of a genuine church, you see, is you go to it, you might come out a different person, and that different person might shock your friends. Uh, we need to— can you imagine the cast of characters the day before Pentecost and the cast of characters the day after Pentecost. Different people, different power, different vision. They had a certain combination of giddiness and power, and they were dangerous, and they rocked the world. And this is risky business. It's much easier to get a kind of inspirational talk to improve our golf game and make us more successful in business. More charming at a cocktail party. Um, but, uh, we're talking about somebody's going to make you a dangerous revolutionary, spiritually renewed, uh, force in the world. And my goodness, uh, that scares people. Yeah, we need to stop worrying about church growth and start worrying about genuineness. We're not dying because we don't know how to grow a church. We're dying because, uh, Uh, the, the Lord said to the disciples, and you stay right where you are, pray, wait for the Holy Spirit to come upon you, and then be my witnesses. We skipped that step. We try to do organization without the Holy Spirit. And when you go out to have a successful organization without the Holy Spirit, uh, I don't know what your organization is going to be, but it's going to be spiritually empty. Yeah, I'm a big believer that you, uh, realize God is alive and on the move. Yes. And let's, uh, let's move with him.

Yeah, that's, that's some good stuff. That's some good preaching this morning, sir. Oh yeah, that's good. Well, I've got one more question for you today, and, and then maybe one aside after that that has to do with where you lived for a while in your ministry. But one more question about the book specifically, and again, I thank you for being so generous with your time this morning. But religious people always tend to believe that God is on their side. Christians believe this, but at the same time, we have to realize Nazis also believed that, and they had "God with us" on their uniforms in German. Many white supremacists believe God is on their side. Many terrorists believe God is on their side. "Allahu Akbar," they will say as they attack. I love this quote from your book. It says, "Projected heroes such as Superman may be on our side for our own sake. God is on our side for the sake of others." And I just wanted to end with this one last question, if you'd be able to talk a bit about this.

How— before you get to the question, I would say one of the great things to sing is "Who Was on the Lord's Side?" You know, yes, that's the question. That's right. Go ahead.

Yeah, well, I, I love how in the book you talk about how Jesus fills our cup. You know, there's that great hymn, "Fill my cup, Lord, I lift it up, Lord, fill me till I want no more." But Jesus fills our cup not just so that it will run over, but the overflow is so that we could share his abundance. And I would just love to maybe hear you talk on that for just a minute. You wrote so well about it in the book, and I have a feeling from what I've already heard today that that is such a big part of your heart as a pastor. Um, but maybe just talk to us a little bit about that as the reason Jesus fills our cup.

I think, uh, to feed and nourish others. I'll go back to the example from Pittsburgh Pittsburgh when the steelworkers came in, we had resources. We had connections. We weren't going to keep them out and keep ourselves safe. We were going to share the resources. And if you've got connections, you've got financial resources, you've got creative ingenuity, you've got time, you've got all kinds— you've got a community, uh, let's put it to work to serve people who are crying out for help. And, uh, that's, that's what it is. It's— we, we have been filled for a purpose. We're blessed for a purpose. The Holy Spirit came upon the disciples not so they could feel good and be giddy, but so they could go out and transform the world. Yeah. And, uh, so it's, it's It's how do we use that which is in us to feed others, and not building our organization and getting our numbers and all that. We have numbers for a purpose. Numbers are to go out and more and more people to go out and serve. And if that's not your purpose, forget the numbers. They're empty. Yeah, yeah.

Well, that's some good stuff. That'll preach, as they say. As they say. Well, it's been a real joy to get to talk to you this morning. I just had one other question because lately on this show we've had several people on the podcast that have had Pittsburgh connections and actually were friends with Fred Rogers. And I wonder if in your time in Pittsburgh, I know that the Mr. Rogers Neighborhood show was in that area and he went to church in that area. Did you ever have any interactions with Fred or any of the people that were connected with his neighborhood show?

Uh, he was on one side of the city, I was on another. Um, he's a Presbyterian minister. Um, I don't know how many people know that, but Fred Rogers is a Presbyterian minister. Um, uh, did not have much interaction with him but great respect for him. And, uh, my kids were raised by him. Oh yeah, yeah.

Well, that's one guy. Yeah. Well, I just had to ask that question because of the Pittsburgh connection for sure. But, well, John Galloway has been my guest today. John, it has been just a real privilege to get to talk to you. And let me say, you always have an open invitation. Anytime you want to come back and have another conversation, you're always welcome. I really enjoyed the book, The Gospel According to Superman, and I want to recommend it to anyone who can find it. Hopefully a publisher will pick it up and print it again. Because I don't feel like it's dated at all, to be honest with you. I feel like it still is, is just as, as powerful, maybe even more so, as the time it was first written. Some of the things you wrote about in the book, as far as some social issues and things that were happening, it could be today. And, and so it's a very relevant book. But thank you for your ministry over the years. Thank you for this book. And, and thank you for being my guest here on Voices in My Head today.

Well, thank you.

Good to be with you. And, and something I always say to my guests as we leave is thank you for being one of the voices in my head. So you were— you have been one of the voices in my head as I, as I've read about you. So thanks for being one of the voices today. God bless you. Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com Follow me on Twitter @RickLeeJames, like my artist page at facebook.com/RickLeeJames, and keep up to date on what I'm writing on my author page on Amazon. There's also the Voices in My Head Facebook community found at facebook.com/VoicesPodcast. And if you want to follow my alter ego on Twitter, follow my popular Mr. Rogers quote account found at @MrRogersSay. Also, make sure to follow my appearance schedule on my website, and if you would like to have me come to your town to do a concert, a speaking engagement, or a book event, you can book me through my website at rickleejames.com/bookings. And it would mean the world to me if you would write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews we receive, the more visible this podcast is on the internet. And now the benediction. May the God of peace, who raised Christ from the dead, strengthen you in your inner being for every good work, and may the blessing of God Almighty, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, rest upon you and dwell within you this day and forevermore. Amen.