Voices In My Head Podcast Episode 339: The Pivot with Andrew Osenga

This is Rick Lee James, and the music you are hearing is from my new album, Thunder. The title track, Thunder, is a never-before-released song by the late Rich Mullins. There are also 12 other tracks made up of original music, hymns, and readings to guide the listener on a journey. You can buy Thunder today on clear vinyl and CD, or stream it on Spotify, Apple Music, and almost every other music streaming service. Thunder, hear it today at rickleejames.com. Today's podcast is brought to you by Audible. Get a free audiobook download and 30-day free trial at audibletrial.com/voicesinmyhead. That's audibletrial.com/voicesinmyhead. Over 180,000 titles to choose from for your iPhone, Android, Kindle, or MP3 player. That's audibletrial.com/voicesinmyhead. Give it a try today! Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, a songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more with friends, colleagues, and sometimes just by myself. Now make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes or by tweeting at me @RickLeeJames on Twitter. And please join my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. By the way, in case you're interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers one of the voices in my head. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of Voices in My Head. Welcome back to Voices in My Head.

As always, I'm your host, Rick Lee James, and I'm so glad that you're here for us again for another great conversation. Tonight, my guest is Andrew Osenga. Andrew is a 20-year music industry veteran, from artist to producer, major label A&R to studio session player, he's contributed in almost every area of the music business. Andrew also hosts a really amazing podcast called The Pivot. It's a show about people who've made a change and how they deal with transitions. Andrew is an extremely gifted host. His guests come on to talk about the pivots they've made in their careers, but inevitably Andrew's visits with his guests touch on the subjects of family health, and God. By the time each episode ends, you've heard some of the best stories on the internet. Today we're turning the tables a bit on Andrew and allowing him to be the one to share his own personal pivot story. Andrew Osenga, welcome to Voices in My Head.

Oh, well, man, thank you for those kind words. That's amazing.

I actually should say welcome back because I forget this is like the, the 4th or something, something like that.

Several times. It's been a while.

I think the last time we did it was at the release of your last album when it came out, The Painted Desert, and that's been a little over a year ago now. But it's great to have you back with us. So I have come to start thinking of you almost as, at least in my mind, you've kind of become the Christian version of Mark Maron because you've really I mean, you've really developed such a gift for interviewing people, and I think one of the ways that you do that is, is you allow people to talk and, and to tell their stories. And you really do go in some— the reason I say Mark Maron is it seems like a lot of your guests end up going to some really deep emotional places, and, and they share some, some really great things that are so helpful that maybe they didn't even think they were going to share whenever they came came on your show originally, but you really take them to some great places. And so what I wanted to do for a while, because I've been such a fan of your show and getting to hear some of the great stories of the people that are on it, and, and knowing you a little bit and knowing some of your own transition that you've been going through over the last few years, I thought it might be a really interesting thing to just kind of get to hear your story a little bit and allow you to share about where you've been, where you are now, kind of where that journey has taken place. So if that all sounds good to you, we're gonna kind of let you be the pivot.

Oh gosh, crazy. Well, yeah, I don't know if I'm a very good interviewee, but, but we can give it a shot.

I am.

I'm—

I know you're going to be great, you for sure. But, uh, although listeners, you'll have to know that he's had a busy evening. I think you've had volleyball already for one of your daughters, and another one you're waiting to come home from Young Life. And so We're kind of all over the place with the podcast tonight.

So, oh man, you're kind. Thanks for being so flexible. It's dad life, man. It's just dad life, you know.

Totally understand that.

Yeah.

Well, you know, listeners who have listened to the show before and have heard our conversations, um, they probably already know a lot about you and they probably, most of them have been following your career anyway, but you've, you've really done it all. We've already covered that a little bit. Um, you've been a musician on the road for for artists like Stephen Curtis Chapman and Jars of Clay, and you've played with Caidman's Call. You've been a songwriter for many of the same people. You've done A&R, you've been a producer. But I know a few years back you kind of had a transition in your life to where you were doing less of the producing and less of the traveling and started working in a different capacity. I wonder if maybe that's sort of the best place for us to start if you wanted to kind of share your story from there and kind of what led you initially to that transition time, which became something kind of wholly different after that.

Yeah, it did. Well, um, man, uh, you're like, yeah, you're so, so kind. And, um, uh, yeah, but to say I've done sort of all the sides of the music business is not because like some savant, it's more because like, well, I wasn't very good at that one, but But I randomly tripped into this one and then—

That is not true.

And then I randomly tripped into that other one is the way it's definitely always felt. It's like, the funny thing is you condense 20 years into like 2 paragraphs, you're like, "Man, that guy's done a lot." But most of the time it felt like complete and total failure in the midst of it, you know? Like you just feel like you just— you spend most of that time, at least I do the way I'm wired, just going like, "Wow, if only I was doing what that guy's doing. This didn't work the way I wanted it to," you know? All right, but, but then, but then at some point you stop and go, oh man, I should really be grateful for the fact that I got to do any of this stuff. It's amazing.

No, I totally get that.

Totally get to be around them.

Yeah, I was going to say it probably gives a lot of people listening hope to hear that, that they're not the only ones who feel that way.

Oh gosh, I mean, yeah, it's like just you realize that you just are— you just have to be grateful and, and that You know, I think I'm old enough now to go, oh, the things that didn't work that I wish had worked, that I felt that carried a lot of shame and regret about, you know, at this point I'm like, well, I'm kind of— I guess I'm glad that didn't work because I never would have been doing this other thing that I'm really thankful for and really excited about, you know. And, um, it's taken a lot of work to get to that point. Um, uh, but yeah, so I've been a traveling musician for about 16 years. And I'd, uh, um, I was out with Stephen Curtis, was playing guitar for him, and which was an amazing gig. He's an amazing guy, and I just really loved my time with him. And, uh, I learned a lot from that because it was— I spent a lot of years trying to be cool, and at the time I played with Stephen, it was maybe not the hippest, indiest, like, you know, underground gig to look cool on Instagram. But it's like, man, that guy's a an amazing human and to realize that, oh, I don't have to— I can really fully support somebody else's vision that's maybe not my vision. And I can get a lot of— I can bring something to that. And I can actually can get— can feel very, very present and helpful in that. It was a big lesson to learn. And that was a really important lesson to learn that I learned with Stephen was how to kind of not— how to sort of dial yourself back to be able to serve someone else's vision, which is something I'd never really been able to do before. And that was really helpful. And so at kind of at the same time that I was doing that, I was at a spot where I've got 3 kids and I was having to travel a lot, you know, to make ends meet. And I felt like every day that I was— when I was gone that much, it just felt like, man, I'm not the dad and husband that I want to be. I'm having to be gone so much. And then when I'm home, um, I want to be a record producer and a songwriter and it's working okay, but it's not working amazing. And so I'm not really making ends meet when I'm at home. And so it just felt like every day was kind of a failure, you know, either I'm a bad dad or I'm a bad provider. And after a while, I mean, this sucks. I can't keep doing this. And if I'm honest, like, you know, I think I'm a very competent record producer, and I'm a very competent guitar player and songwriter. I'm all the— I am competent at all those things, but I am not like the world's greatest at any of those things. And, um, and I'm in a town where there are the world's greatest, and some of those people are dear friends of mine. Um, in particular on the production side, I've kind of watched two of the guys that I came up with that we worked a ton together side by side on a bunch of records when we were starting out. They've both just blossomed into these incredible record producers and have hit songs and big, you know, huge artists. And, and, um, and I, you know, they're geniuses and I was like their friend who was really good, you know. And, and at some point you're like, I'm just so jealous of my friends., and this sucks. And so it— and I don't think I had the language around that. I just knew it was tough, you know, and because, you know, you want to be the best and you want to have those opportunities. It's like, I'm not getting those. And at some point it's kind of like, well, maybe I'm not— maybe that's not what I'm gifted at, you know. Maybe there is something where I can be better at. And that just started a search for me of kind of feeling like, okay, well, if I, if I get— if I get— if I become a more successful guitar player, like, I'm going to join some bigger act and I'm never going to see my kids. I don't want to do that. So I felt like I'd hit the ceiling as a guitar player, um, and I'd kind of hit my personal ceiling as a record producer. And, uh, and about that time I made an offhanded comment to a friend. I said, there used to be jobs for people like me who've kind of done a little bit of everything, just again because out of necessity. And, you know, they would go, they would go work at record labels and they'd be A&R guys because they knew all the, they knew the whole business. But nobody does that anymore. And he goes, actually Capitol is looking for somebody right now, kind of quietly. And I was like, oh, um, so I ended up— I knew the head of that department there a little bit and just reached out like, hey, I heard maybe there was a rumor that you guys were looking for somebody and I'm really interested in something like that and I need to make a transition. And, um, and so we met and kind of Really quickly, that door opened, um, which started— that was about 5 or 6 years ago now, um, and that was— so that at that point I quit Stephen's band, um, which I couldn't believe. I was calling Stephen one afternoon to tell him I'm quitting. Like, who quits Stephen Curtis Chapman's band? Um, I was like, I couldn't believe that that was what I was doing, you know? And, um And he was so kind and generous. I had to do the same with Andrew Peterson, and I was playing with him a lot. Just, hey man, you know, I can't do whatever the things we had on the schedule. And they were all so supportive. And, um, well, then I got into that job, and, and I thought I knew what that job was, Rick, and, and it was not what I thought it was. Um, and it took me, took me probably 6 months to realize that the that it wasn't that, just the job was completely different than I thought. And then it took me a year to figure out what the job actually was. And about the time I started to realize like, oh, okay, so it's, it's this. They had, they were in a, they were letting people go kind of almost at that point, it was like almost every other week, somebody was getting let go. And kind of a whole sort of class of people. Just over the course of about a year disappeared from that system. And, uh, one day it was me. Um, it was rough. And, and, uh, it's so funny because now that kind of class of people, we're all still good friends. And I had lunch with one of those people today. And, um, and, uh, like, we're all— and I was on the phone with probably 3 others today because now we were all at other labels and we're all still working together, you know, but we have these relationships and it's actually been really sweet. But, but at the time, you know, I'd been doing— I've been an A&R guy for a little over, a little over 2 years, and I wasn't good enough. I didn't have the experience to be like some hotshot guy that anybody else wanted to hire. And at the same time, I'd been out of the production and the, the guitar player game long enough that nobody needed me anymore. And there was— I didn't fit anywhere. There was no spot for me. Um, it's a town full of people that I cared about a lot. I care about me. And, you know, people bought me lunch for 6 months, just, hey man, how you doing? Let me— you know, people were really kind and, um, very supportive. Like, Nashville— people move to Nashville all the time, you know. A lot of young artists move to Nashville and Um, and it can be a hard town to get to know people, and it's not because people aren't kind and generous, it's because this town takes like 110% hustle. Yeah, it's just, it's an entrepreneurial town, and like, you kind of, if you've, if you've lasted for 2 or 3 years, you're in just by nature of, hey, you didn't quit, I didn't quit either, we must We must both be freaking champions. Let's be friends, you know?

Um, yeah, you know what, I was going to say, if I can interject for one moment, I always feel—

yeah, of course—

because I used to live in Nashville, I went to college there, and, and now I go back to visit with, you know, usually for things with LifeWay because I do writing with them some still and some publishing type stuff. But, uh, or the things that I saw you at, like the Getty Conference a couple months ago.

But everything—

oh yeah, that's right.

Yeah, every time I go back, I, I think of what you just said a few minutes ago where you said, literally, the very best in the world are in this town. And it does feel kind of like you're surrounded by them. And, uh, and, and I, I always think, I feel so sorry for the writers and the talent in this town who are so good, but by comparison with everybody else around them, I mean, it must be so hard, you know, to— like, I always feel like it must be easier in some ways to do music away from Nashville, like what I'm doing, than it is in a town where you're just, you know, crowded with some of the most amazing people. And so I guess all that is to say, I get what you're saying when you say you feel like, you know, you're just surrounded, you're always comparing yourself, you know, with these other people around you all the time. It just must be a hard place. So sorry to interrupt. Yeah, I was just— No, man, I totally get that.

Which, you know, is like Comparing yourself to others is just like, it's the death of creativity. It's the death of, um, it's just the death of a lot of things, man. You know, like, there's no good that ever comes with comparing ourselves to other people, but it comes naturally. And especially when you're friends with somebody and all of a sudden they have a hit, you're just like, oh man, I don't have a hit, you know. And every now and then it's like one of your friends becomes a millionaire. You're like, well, I gotta figure that, gotta figure out how to deal with that now. You know, and that's— and you're happy for them and you're also like, woo, you know, you can get all stupid about it. Anyway.

Totally get it.

Yeah. So, but when I lost that job, which I'd never had a job until I was 35, because I always worked in music. I'd always been, you know, I was a self-employed guy. I worked for so-and-so. I worked for all these people. Sometimes for a long, long time, but it wasn't a job. It wasn't like, you know, clock in, clock out, 9 to 5. This is what your business card says, you know, email signature. Like, that was, that was new for me. I'd never had a boss. Um, so I'd also never been fired. And, um, it was crazy. And, uh, so like I said, I didn't really land on my feet, but, but the community of people who are all hustling, who are all like really great people, but it's hard to find time to connect. Like, people made time for me.

Yeah.

And they were very kind, and I had nothing to offer, right? Like, I can't get you a record deal, I can't play, I can't produce your record, I don't even own speakers, I can't do, you know, like, I couldn't help anybody, and people came out of the woodwork just to be kind. Um, and now, can, can I stop for a lot of one minute before? Yeah, yeah.

I just wanted to ask a question because I, I had been to your studio that you had in Nashville there for a while. So when you made this transition, did you, did you just sell off a lot of your equipment? Because you just said you didn't have speakers and things like that.

Is that—

yeah. Yeah, I sold off a lot of the gear and, yeah, um, you know, I, I kept some, you know, I kept some stuff. I kept some guitars. I kept a few basic things. But also I was doing A&R. I had all these artists and I just started— so I sold a bunch of stuff and then I just loaned a bunch of stuff out. Yeah, right. You just disappeared, you know, it went into the ether.

Okay, so, so you literally were— I mean, it literally was like, you know, the things that you could have fallen back on long before you were kind of left without that safety net then at that point.

Yeah, and, you know, it's like, and it's okay, but it was hard. But one of the sweet things, like I said, is the community just— I got to see my community in a different light. And That was really a gift to me. And, um, and also a lot of people had stories that it's like, man, you know what, I don't talk about this a lot, but that same thing happened to me. Or, you know what, I feel the same way, man. I don't know what I'm doing. I, I've been trying to get out of this thing and I don't know how. Or, uh, you know, it was just all of a sudden I was having different conversations with people. I think I was You know, when you had the cool job with the cool office, even if you didn't feel cool in it, but you were faking it, like, people aren't going to let you know. They're not, you don't let, people don't let their guard down in the same way.

Yeah.

And all of a sudden there was no reason to keep the guard up. And it was like, man, I just love these people and they're so kind. And we're all, we all feel this way for the most part, you know, and, and, um, And that's kind of where the podcast started.

Yeah.

Was realizing like, I don't, I don't know that other people in other communities get to have these conversations. Um, because I don't think it— I don't know that a lot of other kinds of work are so close to their feelings, for better or worse. Um, but also like to have the time and space to go and and care for people in that way. Like, I just, I don't know, it just felt like, I don't think this happens for a lot of people, but it was a gift to me. And I did have a couple microphones. And so, that's when I thought, I remember I was listening to How I Built This, which is one of my favorite podcasts.

Yeah, great one.

Which is all about these guys, the person who started Southwest Airlines, the person who started WeWork, and people who start these huge, massive companies, they're huge successes. And I was following a school bus down to a field trip because it's not cool in middle school to have your dad ride the bus anymore. So I was driving behind the bus, leave after this field trip down at the Space Center in Huntsville, Alabama, driving back up to Nashville. My air conditioning went out on my 2003 Toyota. Come on, Ann. You know, it's just kicking you when you're down. It's 95 degrees out. And I was listening to this podcast. I was just like, I don't need to hear how someone was ludicrously successful right now. Like, that's not what I— just rubbing it in my face. I was like, how come nobody ever talks about like when it doesn't work? And that's when I was like, well, maybe I should do that. So I texted a few friends about this idea and people were again generous to come let me come over and ask them a bunch of awkward questions. And, uh, about when it didn't work. And, uh, ended up having some just amazing conversations that I never had with even good friends.

Yeah.

And, um, and then also had the— you have the experience of having to edit myself, which you've done. And like, what teaches you more about what an idiot you are than having to hear— like, having to look at the waveform of you like saying stupid things and going, what were they thinking when I was just rambling about nothing there at their interview.

Yes.

Um, and, uh, and you start to realize, oh, I can edit these things in real time, uh, by not saying stupid things. Um, and by listening more than I talk. That should be— maybe I should do that in other areas of my life too. Just say, uh, that podcast has done really well, which has been really, really sweet. I think a lot of people have, uh, have wanted— have realized that, that they wanted to hear those. They want to hear people talking about that stuff, and they don't get a chance to a lot. And so I think it's given them— it's given a lot of people permission to ask some different questions and to start to think about changes they want to make in their own lives. And that's been a real treat. Um, it's been a real treat. Well, and then at the same time, I, I started writing and made that other record, the Painted Desert.

Um, yeah. Yeah, which is great. It was sort of like your triumphant return to music in so many ways. But, you know, I really appreciate the pivot so much, and I think you're on to it there. I mean, it wasn't exactly, you know, how not to get this made or something like that of the podcast, but it really is a great, like, conversation show of you allowing people to share their story. And you're right, I think it's, it's very encouraging. There are just those days when you need to hear from people who you know are very talented, and mostly the roster that's been on your show, at least when I look at it, I think, oh yeah, I know that person. And just to hear the way that you allow them to really be human on the show and talk about some of these things that just didn't go great or didn't end up the way that they expected in these transitions, and What a great idea, you know. So it really was a good— maybe it was a Holy Spirit thing that guided you from the beginning of that. But then again, did the podcast kind of give you the courage, or I don't know, maybe the drive in some way after listening to a lot of these different stories that people had been sharing with you and talking, not just on the podcast, but partially on the podcast. Is that what kind of helped drive you back to making another album again?

No, they honestly, they, they, they started about the exact same time. Um, and I remember I was interviewing for all these jobs that I didn't want, Rick, and I remember like, you know, you get the call that you didn't get the job, but you're like, I'm supposed to feel bad about this, but I'm just relieved because it sounds miserable. Yeah. And, uh, But at the same time, you're freaking out because, like, how am I gonna— I can't pay— I don't— I gotta pay my bills, you know? And I remember, you know, I'm not a guy— I'm not a very charismatic person. Um, I'm not a guy who hears the word of the Lord a lot, but I kind of felt this, like, repressing sense of, like, you need to go write songs. And I'm like— and I, like, felt almost verbal. And I remember I don't know if I just feeling like my response was, that's stupid, songs don't make me money and I need money right now really bad. And I just felt like this pressing need, like, you got to go write songs. And then because I'm an idiot, dude, and I forgot, like, well, when you write songs and you make records and then you can sell them and then you can make money and people will hire you to come play concerts and they pay you and then you can feed your family, you idiot. You know this, you've done this for most of your adult life. Um, but I had just turned that part of my brain off, you know, and, and I forgot that that was— I just, it never occurred to me, um, that there was no financial or career goal with either the podcast or the music. They just both felt like, well, I can do this today. You know, and then it turns out that the podcast did really well. And because I interviewed, honestly, because I interviewed friends who people know in my town, all of a sudden a lot of people in my community were looking down at their phones and seeing my face, which was the COVID of the podcast. And they went, oh yeah, that guy. I started getting calls again. I mean, like 2 weeks after the podcast went out. I like had a bunch of guitar sessions and people were asking me to co-write and like, wow, like people hadn't called me in years and all of a sudden it like put my own name back, which was not at all the goal.

Yeah.

Um, and then the same thing with making a record and just kind of holding myself off. And I have a kind, kind, generous friend who like let me use his studio while he was on the road and he even bought me a piece of gear because he knew I didn't have any gear anymore, like a little interface so I could plug a microphone into something. He was like, just use this space, make your record.

Wow.

Um, I mean, it was such a gift. And then I made this record that I, I just am so, so love. And I just kind of put all I had into it. And, and, um, and it did, you know, in the scope of like, you know, I'm not an incredibly successful singer-songwriter or whatever, but, but it's been my most successful record. Um, and it also opened a lot of doors for people to say, oh yeah, this guy, we love the way he works. We love what he does about this and this and this. And, you know, um, it just, both of those things started opening doors again. And all of a sudden I was producing records again and, um, playing guitar and things. And that ended up kind of ended up in some things over at the Art House and, which is an old kind of iconic old studio in town. And sure, turns out there was an empty room there, and I, you know, I didn't have a place to work, and, uh, they invited me to come in and work out of that space. And so, um, I was able to move into this just legendary studio, and they had gear that they— you can use this stuff— and, um, just helped me kind of get back on my feet. And, um, And then right about the time that I, I kind of had wind in my sails, I was playing shows and the podcast was doing well and it's getting to work on a few records. I was like, okay, all right, okay guys, here we are, we're gonna be okay. Um, and then, and then all of a sudden I ended up in conversations with another record company, which I had sworn off after the first one, right? And, um. And then I met these people and I was like, well, dang it, these guys are doing something different. And I really love the way they're talking. And, um, and, uh, it ended up being kind of this really sweet opportunity to, uh, move into a role at this, at this company where I could more of a leadership role and, um, getting to do a lot of development of younger artists, which is something I just love.

And.

And they were, as opposed to the other places that I've been a part of, they were like, no, keep playing shows, keep doing your podcast. That's part of what allows you to do the work here that you need to do. And they've really given me a lot of freedom, which has allowed me to really invest myself in this role. So now for the last year and a half, I've been working at Integrity Music. Yeah. Which is, uh, has been a kind of— honestly, was like a failed record company for the last 10 years. Um, uh, there was, there was about 20 years, 20, 30 years where they were an incredibly successful company, and then, um, times changed, leadership changed, and just whatever was happening there just didn't— wasn't connecting, it wasn't working. And I think, you know, anyway, so there was this kind of shell of a company, and these new people came in to lead it who had been a part of the Kingsway label over in the UK. Yeah, these charismatic Anglicans from across the pond, and they just— particularly the president, vice president, who are the guys I work most closely with— just have this incredible vision to serve the church with music. And, uh, and the way that they treat people and the way they go about running a business is just like nothing I've ever seen. And, um, I just have loved it. And the company's really growing, it's exploding. And, um, by doing all the weird— by doing things differently than everybody else. And, uh, it's just— it's become a magnet and people are are really gravitating around it. And now I'm working with a bunch of people I mentioned earlier that are like my sort of my class at my old company. A lot of us got let go around the same time. A bunch of us work over there together now.

Wow.

Um, and other people from different parts of my history and all the other corners of my story. And like, some of these people I'm working with have— I've walked closely with for 20 years. All of a sudden we're in the same building, we're on the same team, and Um, and so my role there is to oversee, uh, about half of, half of the roster of artists and, and kind of specifically to develop new artists. Um, and that's been really sweet. And, uh, so I get to work with just some people that I believe in terribly. I just believe it's like so much, and I get to put resources and strategy and a team behind what they're doing and it's like I said, like working with Stephen where I was able to, where I kind of learned like, oh, I can, I don't, maybe even I'm not the target demographic for this music, but this music is useful and it's good and I can help serve it.

Sure.

And so I'm working on projects where I am definitely not the target demographic and, um, and I couldn't be more thrilled about it. And then a couple things where I am and I just am over the moon. Um, So yeah, so I feel like I'm rambling, but that's, that's what I'm—

this is really interesting.

It's fascinating.

Yeah, you know, Integrity themselves as a company could almost do sort of a pivot episode, you know.

It's like we're like version like 4.3, I think, at this point.

Yeah, yeah, because it really went from like the, you know, top of the world to like, where did they go? And then they kind of—

yeah, come back.

And I've got to interact with a few of the Integrity people over the years and then especially in this new transition. A couple years ago at one of the conferences I was at, and if they are any indication of the people you're working with, they just were wonderful. And I really appreciated getting to know them a little more. And of course there's people who, you know, somehow stayed on over the years, people who have been good friends of mine like Paul Balache who are still part of Integrity. Yeah, yeah.

And he's amazing.

Isn't he just incredible? Like, he just never— it just doesn't allow any moss to grow on him, I guess is how the phrase goes sometimes. But it just seems like everything he does is still so fresh, and he's just such a supporter of people and encourager. And he even helped with my last album a little bit, donated some money and helped promote it some. And so I was just so grateful to him.

That's amazing.

So I'm so glad to know that you're, and with Integrity. And honestly, I'd heard rumors, but I didn't know, you know, exactly what capacity you were filling at Integrity Music. But yeah, as I hear your story, I, I think it's really remarkable, um, just the way that God has kind of allowed you to, to do a lot of different things still, because you, you have so many different things that you're good at. And you've, you've kind of talked down about yourself a little bit on this show. And I think, I think, I think we are probably always our own worst critics, and I'm sure that's true of you as well. But I think a lot of us who see you and see the good work that you've done over the years, we would, we would say, what is he talking about? He's so good at all of it. And, and I do think you've excelled. You, the, the Painted Desert, um just such a powerful album. And, uh, and some, some of the, the moments on that album, um, I can see why it's been your most successful to date because it's a truly moving project. It's very good. And then The Pivot, uh, is, is a wonderful show. I mean, I can't tell you how encouraging it is to be able to come and listen to that and, and hear these great stories. And, and so you have just— I feel like You say you're kind of okay or however you describe yourself, and I feel like you're a person who excels at many things. So I'm just so grateful that you've continued to hang in there because, you know, it's funny, and here I am rambling on too much like we talked about earlier, but I was just thinking—

You're saying nice things about me, Rick. Don't edit those out.

I won't. I'll keep them all in. But I was just thinking about how it really wasn't that long ago, a few years ago, you've had some really big challenges that hit you. Like you went on a trip, I think it was a Young Life trip, and you came back and your water pipes had burst. And basically, basically your home was gone. And you, I think your family was living in a hotel for, I don't know, months. And yeah, then you had to rebuild everything. And I feel like in so many ways you have been such a wonderful and gracious example of what it means to be a person who is being reshaped, you know, and not even by your own choice. It seems like life happens to us, but every time I've seen you and talked with you, you've always been such an encourager and someone that I just feel like God is really using and working through. So I really appreciate that about you, and, and I appreciate you taking some time to tell your story tonight and help some of us who've kind of been wondering, like, what's going on with his life now, you know? It seems like he's on a better path, but that's great. So if you don't mind while we still have you—

You're kind, Rick.

Well, I just speak the truth.

Well, just real quick, first of all, thank you. That's incredibly encouraging and you're very kind. Thank you. One of the most interesting things, it's a thing you know but you don't think about. Until I had, you know, 75 hours of conversation where I just shut up and listened to people about what didn't work in their lives, which I can't recommend highly enough, is you learn that like, I think 98% of changes are what happened to us. And I think we learn who we are and other people learn who we are by how we react when life changes, you know, when the ground shifts under our feet. And, you know, I think there are— we live in this American illusion of, "Oh, I'm going to go and I'm going to make the world work for me," you know. And that's what we see, that's what we hear on TV, that's what we're told. I mean, I was just watching something with my daughter the other night. We were watching American Ninja Warrior Junior, and this little girl, it's just sort of refeeds the lie that's like, I just want people to know that they can do anything if they just believe in themselves. It's just like, no, they can't. And we all know that. Like, we all, we all know that. Like, but it's, it's, it, it's like we've all decided as a culture to kind of like, and I, I think it's, I think it's when you, I know I'm not to get super out in the weeds, like we all have a longing for something that's more, right? Like, we all, whether we're believers in Jesus or not, like, we all need to think that, like, that life is bigger than us and that life can be better and that there's hope. And when we don't have hope in Jesus, we put our hope in things like, believe in yourself, just try harder. And it's like, and the end of that is always failure. Yeah, right. And so that's what I'm saying is like, when most change happens to us. Like, no one chooses cancer. No one chooses to lose the election, right? No one chooses to have their spouse cheat on them or to not get the spouse that they want, right? But that's most of our lives. And so, and so, you know, like, a couple people get to be LeBron James and the president, and everybody else doesn't. You know, and so what do we do when we don't get to be that? You know, I've talked about like I wanted to be this great record producer, and guess what? Two of my best friends are legendary record producers and I'm not. And that was hard. And you know what, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing now if I was doing that. And, and I would like to do that, and I also really like what I'm doing now. And so we make the best of it. You know, and so I think we, but the things that we can choose is we could choose to be grateful for what we have. And that is an active choice. That's not a thing. That's not a way we're wired. That's not a personality. That's a decision that we just, that we, we decide to act on and we take action. We have to choose gratitude and then and then the other side of it is like we can choose things like pursuing our own health, and we can pursue our own health whether that's like emotionally, physically, financially, spiritually. Like, I can't change other people, but I can try to change me, you know, with the help of the Lord. I can try to do that. And it's like, uh, I think allowing— sitting and listening to so many people and learning from their stories, it's helped me grow a lot in those areas to go, okay, well, what am I doing to change me that's going to help serve everybody else around me? Because that's going to change all of us, you know, as opposed to just wishing they would change or trying to badger them or trying to manipulate people. It's like, no, it all starts with how we listen to the spirit to, uh, to learn and to grow, you know, and to repent and to, to try to— yeah, anyway, um, you know what I'm saying.

Yeah, it feels like, uh, like in the background birds just started singing at the end of what you said.

They totally were. I'm sorry, we live in a tiny house. My kids are asleep, so I'm walking around in the front yard holding a volleyball talking to you.

All we need is a synthesizer to play right when those birds came in at the end of your inspirational It was sort of the perfect cap to you telling us kind of your journey and where it's been and the downs and the ups, and then the birds started singing. It's a— no, well, this was— this has been great. I've loved getting to hear your story, and I appreciate you so much sharing it with us. Um, and by the way, I'm so glad that you're doing some producing again, um, our mutual friends in Wild Harbors. That album, yeah, with them, what, what a great album and such a great—

oh man, thank you. I love those guys.

And, and again, I, I think you are a great producer. I don't think you give yourself enough credit, um, and I think, you know, I— maybe, maybe the measure of, of how, how great you are, um Maybe we're too hard on ourselves sometimes by, you know, if it hasn't sold a million, billion records or whatever. But there are still people who are really connecting with what you've done and the work that you've done. And it could very well be that, you know, there are things that are happening because of what you've done that never could have been possible in certain people's lives Maybe because you weren't the biggest producer in the world or whatever, maybe that wouldn't have been appealing to those people who really needed to hear it at that moment.

Yeah.

But for whatever reason, this has been great to get to hear your story again. And I always appreciate—

thanks for saying that—

your skill. And thank you for the good shows that you're coming out with, both, both musically and your podcast. It's always great, and it's very inspirational to get to hear those voices. So, well, I think we're going to put— thanks, Rick. Oh, you're welcome. I think we're going to put a wrap on it for right now, and it's, it's been great talking to you this evening, and I'm so glad. I know you're— you've got a terribly busy schedule, and we even had to do this late at night, but I know the listeners are going to be very excited to get to hear from you again.

Yeah, well, you're so kind, Rick, and thank you for just, uh, your encouraging words and, um, just paying— yeah, for just being a friend for so long. I'm just thankful.

Yeah, well, I'm grateful for you too. Well, as I say to my guests each week on this show, Andrew Osenga, thank you for being one of the Voices in My Head this week.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com. Where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, follow my blog, and even schedule me for your concert or a speaking engagement. Better yet, even a book signing in your neighborhood. You can find all that and more at rickleejames.com. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, the more visible this podcast will be online. And now for the benediction: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. God bless you, and thank you for listening to Voices in My Head.