Voices In My Head Podcast Episode #299: Russ Taff

Have you ever thought to yourself, man, I'd like to host my own podcast? Well, guess what? You can go to podbean.com/voices and get everything you need to create, manage, and promote your podcast. I use Podbean every week for Voices in My Head. There's easy uploading and publishing tools, stunning templates, custom domains, social and promotional tools, an embeddable podcast player, monetization tools, and more. It is your all-in-one podcasting solution. With Podbean, you can create professional podcasts in minutes without any programming knowledge. Best of all, everything is mobile ready right from the start. So go to podbean.com/voices, and when you sign up, use the code voices and you'll get a sizable discount. Podbean, for your home podcasting. Thank you for listening to Voices in My Head. Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is your source for discussions on music, literature, movies, pop culture, theology, and more. Now sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of the Voices in My Head podcast. And don't forget to let the voices in your head be heard by following me on Twitter @RickLeeJames and sharing your thoughts about today's show. Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I am your host Rick Lee James, and I'm glad that you could join us here again this week. My guest this week on Voices in My Head is Russ Taff. Hailed by Billboard magazine as the single most electrifying voice in Christian music, Russ Taff has garnered 6 Grammy Awards and 18 Gospel Music Association Dove Awards. Inducted into the Gospel Music Hall of Fame, an unprecedented 3 times as a soloist as well as a member of the Imperials and the Gaither Vocal Band. Taff is also a member of the Christian Music Hall of Fame and the Arkansas Walk of Fame. He has recorded 11 solo albums to date, including industry benchmarks Metals in 1985, Rustaff in 1987, and Under Their Influence in 1991. From rock giants Kings of Leon to Millard to Tate and many others, Taff's influence is felt throughout the music world. Russ Taff, welcome to Voices in My Head.

Thank you, Rick Lee James. Man, that's quite an introduction.

Well, you have quite a lot of great things about you to share, so it's a pleasure to be able to share it today. You know, guests come on this show all the time with something new and exciting to share about, but you've come today with two exciting new projects: a new album titled Believe and a powerful new documentary called I Still Believe. So I'm wondering, where should we start today Would you like to talk first about the album or the film or just both of them together?

Uh, any way you want to go, I'm happy to jump in.

All right, well, you know what, I'd like to know a little more because I haven't seen it yet. I have heard the album and it's wonderful, but I haven't seen the documentary yet, so I'm going to start there today and ask you some questions. I hear it's great. I've had some people from around the area that have had the chance to see it already and And some have even texted me right away and said, I saw the new Rustaf documentary. And they know that I love Stephen Curtis Chapman too. And they said, your boy Stephen was in it. And I was like, all right. But I heard it was just a, it's a powerful story. And honestly, there were two documentaries this year that I've really wanted to see. One of them I did see, that was the Mr. Rogers documentary, Won't You Be My Neighbor? The other one is yours, and I haven't had a chance to see it yet. So let's talk a bit about it. Why did you feel that now was the right time to tell your story in this way?

About 5 years ago, I felt I was being prompted by Jesus to tell my story, to let people know how far Jesus has brought me. In order to give Him glory, I needed to tell the whole thing. To see where I was, to see where my decisions had the consequences that they caused and how the redemptive power of Jesus can change a life. But I always thought it would be a book at some point in time that Tori and I would sit down and we would write this book and share our experience and strength and hope with whoever would like to hear it. So, but then 3 years ago, I was blindsided by God, and this documentary company contacted me, and they said, we know part of your story. Would you be willing to let us do a documentary on you and you open up and talk about it, the whole thing? And Tori and I, we thought about it for about 3 weeks because, you know, you try to hide your secrets. You don't want them in 7 326 theaters across the country, you know, people watching you tell your secrets. But I knew that if I did, I believed that people would feel safe to tell me their secret. And that we sit in church with you know, our secrets, and we're afraid that people might find out what's going on inside of us. And so we hide in church, in plain sight, and it holds us captive. And it could be anything, you know, it could be an affair, it could be narcotics, you know, it could be gambling, food. There's just so many things that we get hammered by in this world. And for some reason, and I don't who raised this bar so high that when you serve Jesus, you have to be this and this and this. And, um, and so it's kind of impossible to do it. And so we hide and let people think that we're okay. And it's, it's a sad situation, uh, that— and we never get to truly move into where Jesus would have us. Feel worthy of his blessings toward us and his, you know, his outpouring and abundance, because we sit there guilty and ashamed and, you know, afraid people might find out what's really going on inside of us. And it's just taught us all to hide. And so I just felt like if one person say, hey, you know, I did this and this is why it happened, And, and if I have the courage to step out, that maybe it might give them courage. And I always say, you know, tell somebody what's going on, even if it's just one person, or somebody, because that will break its power in half. If you just say it out loud to somebody, and let them, you know, covenant with you to walk with you. And I say, find somebody that their world has been blown up and they're trying to get their feet under them and start doing the right things again, because they will have compassion and understand and not judge you. But the church, it should be a hospital. And it's like singing to the choir when you say that, but there are so many people that are hurting and afraid to let anybody know what's going on. Uh, it's just, it's just not right. And so I just hope that we, by me being vulnerable and honest and say, this is what I did and this is where Jesus brought me and this is how he did it. Yeah.

Well, and I want to thank you for the vulnerability. Um, one thing I've been hearing about the documentary, and I even know from, uh, just seeing the trailer, and I, I was nearly brought to tears just watching the trailer, so I know your story is a powerful one. And, and it's been one of, of being a Christian celebrity of sorts, you know, and Grammy Awards. But it's also been a story of alcoholism. It's been a story of a lot of struggle along the way. And I'd love to maybe just go back to the beginning for a moment and just start with childhood and kind of talk about there and some of the influence from back then, because I know that's an important part of your story too. If you don't mind, Tell us just a little bit about your life as a kid, because I know you were a pastor's kid and you kind of grew up in the church. So there was sort of this progression from the church into the Christian music world, right?

Um, Daddy pastored a real small, um, church, and, uh, maybe 20 people, 25, and a lot of them were family. But Dad was a very charismatic man, and he loved to preach more than anything. Preaching was his golf fishing. Uh, he just loved to preach. And I, I think he could accept himself more by the harder he worked. And I remember when he died, I was trying to talk to him about grace, and he just didn't get it. And he couldn't receive it. And he would say, when I see Jesus, I hope my good outweighs my bad. And, you know, weighed in the balance, found warnings. But that takes me back then to how it began in this home. Dad had been an alcoholic before he became a Christian and had a real conversion. And, uh, he, uh cleaned up and he felt like God calling him to preach and be a pastor. So he and a couple of guys bought an old washateria and took the washing machines out and painted it white and put some pews in there and called it Eastside Tabernacle in Farmersville, California. And when it was time to pick fruit and vegetables, migrant workers would come and our attendance would go up maybe like 3. And then when the season was over, they would go back home to Mexico. But when I was 7, Daddy was a welder. And he got— they call it slag. It's that, it's that little pieces of that that fly off when you're welding, they call it slag. And, and he didn't have his goggles on, he was just going to touch something up and a piece of that slag flew up and hit him in the eye. Wow. And incredibly painful. Not knowing, I mean, you know, this was years and years and years ago, but the doctor gave him some pretty powerful painkillers. And when those ran out, I mean, it kicked, it had kicked everything up again to, you know, his wanting that, that release, wanting that, the, the false peace that, that comes with addiction, that, that everything is all right, everything is all right when he was loaded and couldn't get any more pain pills. And so he just turned to alcohol. And so by the time I was 7 is when the relapse happened. And he was always at church. We were in church Tuesday night, Thursday night, Saturday night, Sunday morning, and Sunday night. We were just in church constantly. And he didn't show up one of the service nights, and Mom sent me home to look for him. And so when I got in the house, I heard him in the back bedroom where, you know, where Mom and Dad, their bedroom. And he sounded so strange. It was I knew that's not my dad, um, and he was slurring and singing, and, and, uh, and I ran back and got Mom, and I said, Mom, Dad's sick, there's something wrong. And so she came home and just fell apart, just absolutely fell apart, you know, just, oh Joe, oh my dad's name was Joe, Joe, oh Joe, what have you done, what have you done? And that started then this cycle of every 6 months, 8 months, a year, and then he would relapse and start again. And, you know, that little bitty church, nobody else wanted to pastor it. It was a tiny little church, and pastoring it took up time, and no one else wanted to do it. And so Dad would sober up and kind of start coming back and sitting there and giving testimony. And then within a short amount of time, they would ask him to pastor again. So this was a cycle that went on and on. And when I was 15, I, I made a decision to move us back to Arkansas because Mom just totally fell apart. And there was nobody in the household. My 3 older brothers were gone.

Wow.

And it just kind of all fell on my shoulders. But I have to go back again to where, you know, my, my deal was I sang with my brothers when we were all little, you know, in the revivals and stuff. And, uh, 2 of them went to Vietnam, and my oldest brother married and left. And, uh, so it all kind of fell in on me, and Mama was paralyzed and just didn't know what to do. Her world had just blown up. And so at 15, I started making decisions. But before that, Daddy was a narcissist, and when he had to be the center of attention, he had to be the center of attention all the time. And when I started being able to really sing with the anointing and sing with passion that comes from the Holy Spirit, It would threaten him, and he would not talk to me for a couple of days, and he just kind of avoid me and not look at me. And so when the Holy Spirit was trying to teach me my gift, it threatened him, and I knew every time I got up there, if I did good, really good, that he's going to punish me. But the desire to serve Jesus, the desire to sing, it outweighed the punishment that I would get because when I sang, I felt the presence of Jesus. And Mom started at 11. I was 11. They call it covert incest. It's not physical touching, but it's like where a spouse that's sober will reach out to one of their kids to become a spouse, someone they can talk to. The worst whipping I ever got in my life is I told a little friend, I was 9 years old, that Mom and Dad had an argument. But, you know, you don't tell what goes on in family, and they're supposed to be perfect. So, odd of them having an argument. And my older brother overheard me, and when I got home, Mom was waiting for me. And and just started screaming, you don't tell anybody what goes on in this family, and took her shoes off and threw them at me, grabbed books and threw them at me, and then came over and started punching me in the face. You don't tell anybody what goes on in this family. And I was balled up in a corner with her just kicking and screaming and kicking and screaming, you don't tell anybody what goes on in this family, uh, to the point I had to wear long sleeve shirts to school for 2 weeks. Because the bruises on my arms where she had kicked me. So, you know, I had Dad on one side, threatened by me and jealous of me. And then Mama, who would night after night, starting at 11, I would have— she'd come into my room, and I would have to sit up on the bed. And she would just start dumping on me. "how bad it is, and we're probably not going to have lunch money next week, and we're probably going to lose the house." And so she would take all her fear, and she had to tell somebody. And so she told me, but I couldn't tell anybody. And so I carried all this in my gut, terrified, terrified. And it, I mean, it really, really affected me. And the God that I was serving, that we were— excuse me, took a drink of water— the God we were serving was that old-line Pentecostal God that did not love us very much. And we had to work real hard to to be accepted by him, and there was nothing about grace in it. So, you know, and you lived under fear that he might pull his presence from you because you did something wrong, or, you know, if you had a problem and you couldn't get a handle on it, that he would walk away from you. Wow. And so I carried all of this inside of me in starting From my first memories, mom and dad, to me and my brothers, would say, you're not worth a bullet to shoot you with, you're not worth the salt that goes on your bread, and you'll never amount to anything. Oh my goodness. And it was said over and over and over for 17 years. It was said. And after a while, you start believing it. That I'm not worthy and I will never amount to anything. But yet your voice is starting to bring you more and more attention and people being blessed and moved by your singing. But you're in this cycle and this spiral around and around and around of loving Jesus and wanting to serve him, even though I was afraid of him. You know, Daddy would come after me when I would do good, and Mama would come into my room and dump all the family problems on me. But Mama had a key to the church, and well, I remember, you know, when they— at 12, they threw him out again, and I was kind of just doing my thing, which was to learn a song, and I learned how to play guitar. And on Sunday night, I would sing a song that I had learned. And I couldn't play sports. I was too short and slow. But I could sing. And so, you know, that began my, you know, career of loving music and letting music take me away from all the pain and the problems. But Mama had a key to the church, and it started when I was 12. That when there's chaos in the home and trauma going on, yeah, you know, you're just kind of lost and you can stay out to 5 in the morning and nobody cares because they're so involved with themselves. Um, but like I said, she had a key to the church. And so about 10:30, 11 o'clock at night, when I knew no one would be there, I would go down to the church and, uh, unlock the door. And I, you know, I had heard that Jesus was somebody you could talk to. And I would open that door and I would feel my way to the front. I couldn't turn on any lights because they would know somebody was in there and probably call the police. So there was a little lamp up front by a little desk against the wall, and I would feel my way up there and turn that little bitty lamp on, and I would kneel at the altar or sit on the altar and just start crying and telling Jesus how scared I was and telling him what's going on and I don't know what to do. And, uh, I was saying all these things, uh, to him, and I felt a little bit of a release when I would do that. So that started a pattern between Jesus and I that went on for years and years of just going to him and talking to him. And it took me years to trust anybody to talk to, uh, because, you know, it's just branded in your brain. You don't let anybody know what's going on because they will turn on you and they will use the information against you. Um, but so, I mean, I got all this in my head And I'm just emotionally paralyzed, growing up with great trauma, not knowing what to do with the trauma. And I was in New York and here in Nashville for years. There are some Christian artists who socially drink and might have like a wine with a meal or things like that. And but I just never did because of Dad. I did— I didn't touch the stuff.

We're probably scared of it.

Oh, I was, I was. But we were in New York, I was 26 years old. And my wife's brother was an oboe player with the New York Philharmonic. And his wife Cree danced with American Ballet Theatre. And so we decided to go to New York and just stay with them for like a week. And they had a little apartment down in the Village on the 5th 5th floor, the highest floor, and it was the middle of July and it was so hot. And they had a little room air conditioner and all you could do is just kind of sit in front of it and it would help very little, but anywhere else in the room it didn't work at all. But I remember there was no Coke left in the refrigerator, but there were 3 Heinekens. And so I thought, well, nobody's— you know, my friends do it and it's okay and I've never tasted it and you know, it's, it's real cold, so it might help cool me down. And I was innocent as I could be. And so I opened one, and I started feeling something. And so I had the other one, and I felt more of it. And by the third one, I couldn't hear those voices anymore. Those voices were quiet, those accusing voices, the voices that I'll never amount to anything and that I'm a fake and a phony and people are going to realize that I'm not good and, you know, all this support's going to stop because I'm really not good on the inside. So, you know, guilt says I've done something wrong, shame says I am the thing that's wrong, And so shame just dominated my life. And so by the third beer, something marvelous happened, and those voices were silent. And I began to thank God. I said, man, this must be the way normal people feel. Hmm. And, and the next day, I really— I began to tell Jesus you know, how happy I was that this had happened. And I want to do it some more because it quiets all those voices. I don't hate myself, I don't hate my parents, and I can just live freely. Yeah, not knowing the price tag that would come with it. Yeah.

Now, you know, I was just going to ask a question. At this point, you were already in the midst of your singing career.

Oh yeah, I left with the Imperials. Yeah, yeah.

And so, uh, just to kind of put a little context behind it, I'm thinking of, uh, you know, you told us already that as a child you learned to hide everything.

Oh yes.

And so here you are in a new time where you're finding something that seems to be bringing you some relief, and yet among Christian circles you don't talk about that. You know, we don't drink, you know, in a lot of places, and especially back then.

Oh my, yes, yes.

So I imagine that you're in the midst of finding relief and then even more shame at the same time on top of it. I would—

oh, absolutely, because, you know, within a week, two weeks, three weeks, uh, I realized this stuff has got a hold of me and it's still working to numb the voices, but I'm having to hide to drink. It's like in my spirit something wasn't right, but I liked that the voices were quiet. Yeah. And so at— and I drank for several years, you know. I— my goal was not to— I mean, my hope was to never walk on stage inebriated, and I was able to do that. But there was always liquor waiting for me when the event was over, because once you start drinking drink. There is so much guilt and shame, and you are your dad. And I hated myself. I mean, I would, I would have to shave my face without looking myself in the eyes. I couldn't even look at myself because I was so full of shame of what I had turned into, and that the way that I hated my dad, I now hate myself. And I was just in a, this, you know, a body that was chained, he was chained up and couldn't get free. And you don't tell anybody what's going on because they will use it against you, they will gossip. And so who can I tell? You know, who can I talk to about this? And that kept me silent longer. Because I didn't feel safe to tell anybody. And so you stay in that, that cycle of drinking earlier and earlier because you feel so guilty and you want the guilt to go away and you want the shame to go away and you want those voices to go away. And they have been magnified 2 times by now what I'm doing. And I'm adding my voice to what my parents said about me. And I was just, I was in hell. I couldn't, you know, and I would pray and I would fast and, you know, that was what I was taught you're supposed to do to get over something. And nothing, I mean, I begged God and I might have 2 or 3 days and I'd relapse again because I wasn't telling anybody. I was trying to do it all myself in secret.

That's such a lonely place.

Oh my. And I wouldn't talk on stage. I stopped talking on stage. And I would do my concert, sing my songs, because I felt so ashamed. And I couldn't, I felt like such a phony to talk about Jesus in the shape that I was in. And I'm still serving that old-line Pentecostal God, and I knew that he was mad at me.— and disappointed in me. And so I wound up, you know, going to treatment because I couldn't stop. And I went to treatment for 35 days. And when I came out, I had to go right out on the road. And so Tori joined me. Because I was just so tender and I just had 30 days sobriety, but I couldn't cancel the dates. A contract was signed. And so we thought the best way to do this is that Tori comes out and give me somebody to hang with.

Sure.

And that there won't be that temptation. I'm all alone again and I'm on the road again. And, and, and it worked. I was sober for 10 years.

Wow.

And, you know, still not growing. I mean, I was going to AA meetings and doing what I was supposed to do, but my mind was broken. No matter how good God was blessing me, I couldn't receive it because I felt like I wasn't worth it. You know, I don't deserve anything good he gives to me. And you'd win a Grammy and you'd go back to the hotel room and you would feel good for maybe 30 minutes and then it's gone. They're going to find out I'm a fake and a phony. And you build this image of yourself of what you want people to look at in you. And you build this image of this young charismatic guy that had the world by the tail and everybody loved that image. And I would hold that image up for everybody to love. But behind that image was this skin-and-bone guy that was getting nothing and hated himself. And so, I mean, it was just— so you're sober and you're not drinking, and you start, you know, with the steps, but there isn't a great change. And I mean, mentally, obviously Therapy has been such an important part of my reprogramming my mind with the scripture and with therapy and basically teaching me how to live to combat those voices without alcohol. And when I saw your title, Voices in My Head, this is the show I need to be on.

That's right. I thought that numerous times as we've been talking.

Well, you know, go ahead.

If you don't mind, I just wanted to ask a quick question.

Sure.

Because, you know, I think many of us have had experience in the church where we felt a similar way, that we couldn't share our faults and we couldn't feel safe in doing that.

Right.

I'm interested, as someone who still loves Jesus and still is a part of the church, Do you think that you've found more help through therapy and being able to share, or has the church ultimately been a place for you that's become a place where you can share? I'm just curious about, in that part of your journey, where you have found it the most beneficial in sharing.

Well, it was therapy and 12-step groups that I felt safe. The church I'd seen what they'd done to my dad, and I'd seen several Christian artists that had had a problem, and I watched this town turn on them. And so I did not feel safe in any church building to talk about what was really going on inside of me because I knew I would be judged, and I knew I would be labeled, and they would throw me out. So you just live in silence with, you know, the church. Now there were Christian men that I, you know, I was accountable to, and we were like, they were like my parent, my dad, basically older than me, and they, and they know what's going on, and they could advise me, and they could counsel me, and they could, they could tell me what scriptures to meditate on. But no, it took years to feel safe to talk about in church. Um, even, you know, with 10 years sobriety, I, I still did not trust anybody in the church to talk about my struggle, to talk about my pain. Now, there was a few men and women that knew what was going on, and they were standing with me, but I trusted them because we'd been friends a long time.

Sure.

Um, but when Dad died, um, that old-line Pentecostal God that I was trying to please. And I was at his funeral loving my dad because he's Dad, and then hating him for what he put us through and what he did. And I tried to talk to him 3 times before he died just to clear the air, you know. And he couldn't do it. He was terrified to die, and he didn't want to talk about anything negative. And so he left this planet with me with this, you know, 10,000 pounds of weight on my shoulders, not knowing that God had a plan. And but I tell you, everywhere I turned, God had somebody there. Every time it was— we needed— I needed to go to another level, there was somebody there. And so after Dad died, I think I relapsed for a week or two, something like that, because I mean, you know, I knew it was death if I stayed with it. And in therapy they were teaching me how to deal with these feelings on the inside that were crippling me. And so I sobered up quickly. And I had 9 years and my mother died. Now, during this time, I was just starting to learn about grace. And Mark Lowry, years and years ago, gave me a book on it. And I read it and it's like, this is too good to be true. This is not the Jesus I know. The Jesus I know demands work and you have to earn your way in. I mean, that's the Jesus that I know. And so when mom died, it was the same thing. I drank for about 5 days. It was like, this is too painful. Again, her leaving this planet, not clarifying anything and not wanting to talk about it. But there was this place. Well, let me go back just a bit because they did an intervention on me. After my mother died. And, you know, my close friends that, that I had made over the years, and they had been with me for a long time, some of them, and Bill Gaither canceled his day and flew here to Nashville because he heard I was in trouble and wanted to help me. And they planned this intervention. And so I walked into the therapy room thinking it was just going to be me and Tori. And there was 17 people sitting there.

Wow.

And I mean, I didn't know what was going to happen, but I knew it wasn't going to be good. Yeah. And Tori told me, she said, I'm not going to live this way anymore. And if you can't get a handle on this, I'm leaving. I've already seen a lawyer and you are destroying me. And destroying yourself, and I'm not going to stay around to watch you blow yourself completely up. I love you too much to see you do that. And, and then each one of them took a turn telling me how scared they were for me and that I'm playing with fire and, uh, the choices that I'm making are crippling. And poor Bill, bless his heart, he cried. He just cried all the way through it, and it was breaking his heart. And I, you know, it just ripped my heart out seeing him sitting there, who's a very, very good friend of mine and knew the struggle but didn't know how deep it went, sitting there and just crying like a baby for me.

Wow.

Um, and again, I, you know, I wanted to to run away. And I did for— well, Gator wouldn't leave me alone. He spent that day and into the late night with me, not wanting me to, to drink. And so he flew back home. And I think I drank one more time. And I went to another treatment center here in Nashville. And that was when I first started getting a few clear, a clear view of what I was and how I could get better. That it was renewing my mind. It was, you know, taking positive thoughts and, and rebuilding my brain and rewiring my brain to see myself as good instead of bad. Yeah. And there was a therapist that I was seeing And every time we would get into family stuff and the trauma of my childhood, I would start shaking and did not want to go there. And I, several times, I left sessions early because I knew if I pulled the lid off that can that I didn't know what all was going to come out. And I knew how angry I was. But she said, until you address the trauma of your life, of your childhood, you're never going to get a hold of sobriety. You're not going to get a hold of who you are and why you are and what God wants you to be until this is dealt with and you can let it go. And she said, there's a place in Santa Fe, New Mexico that deals with trauma, childhood trauma. And she said, I want you to go there. It's expensive, but it will save your life, Russ, because what you're doing right now, at any moment you could collapse, any moment you could collapse. And so, you know, I had to cancel dates, and that was money coming in, and we had to go into our savings account. And there were people around that, that, that love me that helped out. —and they gave money for me to go there. And for the first 2 weeks I was in session, it was like 15 people for 5 therapists, and it was intense. And they had me draw a picture of Jesus, and they said, you know, you're going to need him when we move to the next phase. And so for 2 weeks, I was learning about trauma. I was learning what it caused inside my brain and how my brain had been rewired to cope with the trauma. And for 2 weeks, they were preparing me, having me look at, you know, what trauma was and how it was and how it could be dealt with. And then 2 weeks into this, they said, the main therapist said, Russ, bring Jesus to the session today because you're going to need him. And I brought Jesus. Then I put him in a chair to the left of me so I could see him. And they started going down inside of me into that cesspool of fear and anger and hurt and resentment that had caused— that had erupted in me as a child and that I had carried into my adult life. And I cried for 3 weeks. Every day more was coming out and more memories came up. As I would let one memory out, another one would come and another one would come. And they would help me to see it look at it. And now listen, this is how we discard it. And they went through that huge pile of trash and hurt and fear and anger, you know, piece at a time, piece at a time. And for 3 weeks, I wept and wept and wept and let it out and talked about it and talked about it. And but I knew if I was going to be well, I would have to do whatever it took. To get well. And after I spent— wound up spending another 30 days there, I was there for 65 days. But when I left there, I was a different person. I was a different person. I could think about my parents, and I had sympathy for them, empathy for them, because they were raising me just like they were raised. Yeah. And they were casualties also to this horrible way to raise people, raise kids. And but when I left there, I wasn't angry anymore. I wasn't, you know, I wasn't hurt. And I left there, you know, as an adult and not as a wounded child. And I was home for 4 months and in therapy here at home and going into 12-step groups and going to church and, and, you know, not letting the church people really know what was going on. But, you know, at least I was there and I felt love and support. And me and Jesus were doing really well, really well now. But about 4 months being out of that treatment center— the trauma center— the Mark Lowry, every year he gets about 5 of us artists together, and we've been long old friends together. And we have like a 3-day party of eating and food being catered in and sitting around on the piano and singing and having discussions about Jesus and what we've learned this last year. And, and it's just a grand time. But Mark's best friend, Dina, went to this church, and the pastor loved the DVD that Gaither did on me years ago. And then asked me if I would just come by and say hello, because he loved that that DVD and loved the songs that I had done. And so she asked me if I could go there. And, you know, I thought, well, I could just call. We're here for such a short time. And Mark Lowry, you know, he was like, man, you're only here for a couple of days. This is going to take up a whole afternoon. He said, why don't you just call him on the phone? But there was something about this man. He had pastored for 44 years in this area, you know, birth and, you know, being there for births, being there for deaths, you know, being there with marriage counseling and everything else to this community to keep it moving forward. And now he's dying. And you can't just call him on the phone. I had to go there. I had to go there. But I tell you, when I took my acoustic, and I went to the hospital room. And one of his sons met me at the door and started telling me what was going on, that if God doesn't heal him, that his days are short, and thanked me so much for coming because it would just be a bright spot in his day to just see me and say hello. And so he opens the hospital door and I walk in and I freeze. I mean, absolutely freeze, because he looks so much like my dad. I mean, salt and pepper gray hair, blue eyes, tall, you know, big hands. He was built just like that and looked like him to me. And man, I wanted to turn and run at first. Because I, you know, he looks so much like my dad. But, you know, when you have to, you suck it up and do what you have to do, you know. So I took my acoustic out, and first of all, when he saw me, he started crying. And I went over to him, he was sitting in his chair, and, you know, easy chair, and he hugged me and kissed me on the cheek. And he said, I'm so glad you're here. What your music has done to me, for me over the years. And And he said, Russ, first thing he said, Russ, if I've taught my boys how to live, and if God doesn't heal me, I'm going to teach my boys how to die. And I was like, my Lord, that's a parent. That's what a parent should be. And so I'd say, well, Pastor Jones, what do you want to hear? You could do Heartbreak Ridge and New Hope Road, or, or Oh Say But I'm Glad, you know, just some of the singing songs, and I would sing to him, and, uh, and he was just so enjoying it. And periodically through songs, tears would roll down his face, and he'd have his hands in the air worshiping. And, and his wife kind of started signaling and saying, uh, he's getting tired, he's getting tired, so let's kind of wrap it up. And so I, I sang one more song And I said, it's been an honor to meet you, sir, and what you've done for the kingdom in the last 44 years of your life. And, and I put my acoustic guitar in his case and I started to walk out, and he asked me to pray for him. And I'd just been out at, you know, trauma camp for 4 months. And, and I— how do you pray for a prophet? You know, how do you pray for a guy that has labored for the cause of Christ and been persecuted and, and lied on? And now here's little singer. Yeah, but you know, he saw the gift in me and he asked me to pray, and he saw the anointing in me. And, uh, and I prayed something, I don't remember what it was, um, but I asked him to pray for me when I finished. And I just wanted to reach out and grab those words and pull them back because, you know, I, I, I, I knew he was tired, and but it came out of a place deep inside of me. I said, Pastor Jones, would you pray for me? And he says, oh, Russ, I'd love to. And he stands up, gets out of his easy chair, and he puts his hands on my shoulder, and I'm looking up into his face like I would my dad, with those blue eyes. And all of these things started coming up in me. Yeah. And I started crying. I mean, I started crying a deep, deep cry that come out of, you know, 50 years of being pent up. It's like God had dealt with my mind, he had got my body back in shape, but now it was time to heal my spirit that had been broken. And I collapsed to my knees. I was crying so hard I couldn't even stand. And he didn't know me, he didn't know what was going on, but he was a pastor. And I believe good pastors, they have like a sixth sense. And he pulled my head to his belly and started stroking my hair and started affirming me like a father would a son. And the more he did that, the harder I cried. And he would be stroking my hair, holding my head to his belly, and just saying, 'Oh, Russ, Jesus is so pleased with your life and what you've done, and that you've given your life to him, and you make the kingdom of God a better place because you're in it.' And just stroking my hair and affirming me and affirming me. And the more that he did it, the harder I cried, to the point it was completely— I couldn't stop it. And it was one of those nose-run kind of cries, and it's running down your face all of it, and you can't stop. And it was just coming out of the deepest parts of your soul. Yeah. And I don't know how long I was there down on my knees, but I mean, I finally collapsed to where I was just laying my body on my knees, buckled up underneath me with my head in my hands crying, and him sitting and stroking my hair. But I tell you, when I stood up, my spirit had been healed. I felt the presence of God so strong in that room, and I heard him whisper, you know, I've healed your mind, I've healed your soul, and it's taken a long time to work through that. But hey, I'm healing your spirit to bring you right to the place you need to be in me as a minister, as a man, that now it's time for you to take your place as a minister of God, as an adult, and not living your life as a wounded kid, to become dad, to become a man that, uh, that could step out and lead. Yeah, you know, step out and, and minister like a, like a man, like a, a grown child in the kingdom of God with all the support of heaven behind you. Sure. And when I walked in to that house back where Mark was And Tori saw me across the room and saw how red my eyes were, and I looked different to her. And she came over to me and said, "What happened?" And so I began to cry and tell her, and Mark started crying, and everybody in that room started crying because they realized— all of them knew where I'd been and what I'd been through and how long this battle had gone on. And they said, "This was ordained for you." Hmm. You know, God had set this up years and years and years ago that there would be a time when my body would be healed and my mind would be at a great place and functioning right. And then he would heal my spirit that had been so broken. And I was changed once again. And I walked out of there and my world has not been the same since. I handle my life like a grown man. I love my family like a grown man. And I stand in the position of leader of this home now. And not this wounded, hurt child that had been destroyed as a kid. But that's what the movie's about, of how the Holy Spirit led me from place to place to place and never gave up on me, even when I was in a room and drunk, you know, because I hated myself so, and I hated things around me, he was sitting right there beside me. And I realized that, that he wasn't off somewhere, you know, pointing his finger at me and shaming me, but he was sitting in that room with me going, "Russ, there's a better way. There's a better way, and I can heal it for good. All you're doing is taking it away for maybe 5 hours or 4 hours, and it's back again even greater." But he said, you know, in that room, I will bring complete healing to you in a way that I want to do it. You have been faithful, faithful for years of, you know, going to meetings and working the steps and praying and fasting and trying to hurry the process along, but you can't. It takes what it takes when it takes. And Um, but I just, I thought I would live the rest of my life broken and hurt, angry, and that one day I'd get to heaven and I would be healed over there, you know, that I, that over there that me and Dad could talk and settle it and, and all of that. And I said all that to myself so I wouldn't go crazy. Uh, But God would not stop until I was completely healed. And I'm learning every day. But the first thing I had to be, you know, like there's this scripture. Jesus was going to the Pool of Bethesda. You know, this crippled guy was calling out and Jesus asked him the strangest question. He said, would you be made whole? And I always thought that was just the oddest question. Of course he wants to be healed. But I think what I came up with over the last years is he was asking him, if I heal you, your life's going to change. You've been sitting here with a beggar's mentality your whole life, and you live like a beggar. You know, you dress like a beggar. If I heal you, You're going to have to take responsibility for your life, for your family, get a job, take care of everybody as a man. And if you're ready for that, I will heal you. And I think that's what he was saying to me, you know. What lengths will you go to to get well? Yeah, you know, would you walk with me and let me strip things away and not give up or quit? Quit, or not when it gets so hard that I would just quit because it's too hard. I knew I was doing it for Jesus and for myself and for my family, and so I worked. I worked and I worked and I worked. But I can sit here all these years later, uh, thanking him for never giving up on me. Letting me tell my story to bring him glory, that people can see all that I went through and step by step by step how, you know, with his help I started getting my life back. But that's what the movie's about. Well, that's fantastic.

Man, this has been wonderful, and I've just been engrossed in our conversation. I didn't realize how much time had passed. But I just want to say to you, first of all, Russ, thank you for being, first of all, so vulnerable and being able to share your story in this way. I can't wait to see the documentary for myself. I want to see it even more now. But I also want to say to you how proud I am of you as well, because I know you've been— not just for your music, which is always wonderful, But I'm just proud of you as a person and the way that you have walked this journey and hearing your story today and the way that you have availed yourself. And hearing of— I'm reminded just hearing your story today again of the relentless goodness of Jesus to pursue us. And your story is really another way of telling the story of who God is. Is in his reality. Yes. And, um, so I just, I just wanted to tell you that today, how proud I am of you. And thank you for that. And thank you for sharing your story.

I just felt like that if somebody would start the conversation, yeah, and step out and say, I'm not perfect, this is what I walk through, and, uh, I have to tell you this, and maybe it would give you courage to step out. And we have just been flooded and flooded and flooded with people telling me their secret and asking me for prayer. And so, because, I mean, it accomplished what I wanted, that it has freed people to some degree to step out of the shadow and say yes I want to be well. And I mean, this has got a hold of me, but I want to be well. And I'm watching that happen now, and it's so exciting. That's terrific.

Well, you know, we've just about run out of time, unfortunately, but I do want to say real quick to everybody listening today, please do check out the new album, Believe. It's wonderful. We're gonna play some of the music on the show as we close here today from that album. It's wonderful. And hearing the story behind it, it just makes the song even more profound. I have to tell you, this morning I was listening to your album while I was working out on the treadmill. And at the close of my workout, I got to the song "There Is a Fountain," you know, just the classic hymn. And just the way you sang it, and then when you got to that verse about redeeming love will be my theme and will be until I die. There is such passion in the way that you are, are singing those words. It's, it's a powerful album. It's a collection of not only songs that you've remade that, that were, um, it's from your own past as a, as a singer. Uh, there's some wonderful new worship songs, some standards on there. There's hymns like, like the one I just mentioned. And it's a, it's a well-done project. And I think anybody listening, they would do well to go and find a copy of Believe. It's a great, great album, one of my favorites.

This— and if they, if they would go to rusthavnmovie.com, it's going to go into theaters again in January. Wonderful. Movie.com, not as many theaters, okay, in, in a bunch of them. So just go to rusthavnmovie.com and you can watch trailers theaters and find out where it's going to be shown in your area, probably January 1st. That will be—

Yeah, well, that's terrific because I was just on there yesterday too, and there's also a way to sign up to be the first notified when it releases digitally as well. But I'm glad to know I'm going to have a chance to see it in the theater again because I missed it the first time around, and I'm going to see it this time for sure. Well, Russ, I just want to thank you so much again. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your spirit and your generosity of just being here today and sharing and what you've done over the years. And your example is continuing to help people again and again. So thank you so much. I always say this to my guests at the end of every show. I say, thank you for being one of the voices in my head.

That's great. And thank God there's less voices in my head now. That's right, that's right.

How appropriate today that we had this.

Nothing can separate. Even if I ran away, your love never fails. I know I still make mistakes, but you have new mercies for me every day. Your love never feels. You stay the same through the ages. Your love never changes. There may be pain in the night, but joy comes in the morning. And when the oceans break I don't have to be afraid because I know that you love me. Your love never fails. The wind is strong and the water's deep. I'm not alone here in is open to you because your love never fails. The chasm is far too wide, I never thought I'd reach the other side, 'cause your love never fails. No, it never unfolds. You stay the same through the ages. Your love never changes. There may be pain in the night, but joy comes in the morning. And when the ocean raves, I don't have to be afraid because I know that you love me. You're gonna never fail. You're never fail. You make all things work together for my good. Oh, you make all things work together for my good. I know you make all things work together for my good, for my good, Lord. All things work together for my good. Because I know that you love me. Your love never fails. No, no, no. Your love never fails. No, it never, it never fails.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com, follow me on Twitter @RickLeeJames, like my artist page at facebook.com/rickleejames, and keep up to date on what I'm writing on my author page on Amazon. There's also the Voices in My Head Facebook community found at facebook.com/voicespodcast. And if you want to follow my alter ego on Twitter, follow my popular Mr. Rogers quote account found @MrRogersSay. Also, make sure to follow my appearance schedule on my website, and if you would like to have me come to your town to do a concert a speaking engagement, or a book event, you can book me through my website at rickleejames.com/bookings. And it would mean the world to me if you would write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews we receive, the more visible this podcast is on the internet. And now the benediction: May the God of peace, who raised Christ from the dead, strengthen you in your inner being for every good work. And may the blessing of God Almighty, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, rest upon you and dwell within you this day and forevermore. Amen.