Voices In My Head Podcast Episode #283: Michael G. Long author of Peaceful Neighbor: Discovering the

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Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer-songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is your source for discussions on music, literature, movies, pop culture, theology, and more. Now sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of the Voices in My Head podcast. And don't forget to let the voices in your head be heard by following me on Twitter @RickLeeJames and sharing your thoughts about today's show. Welcome back to the Voices in My Head podcast. As always, I am your host Rick Lee James, and I'm so glad that you could join us here again this week. My guest today on the podcast is Michael G. Long. Michael is an associate professor of religious studies and peace and conflict studies at Elizabeth at Georgetown College and is the author or editor of several books on civil rights, religion, and politics in mid-century America, including First Class Citizenship: The Civil Rights Letters of Jackie Robinson and Billy Graham and The Beloved Community: America's Evangelist and the Dream of Martin Luther King Jr. He holds a PhD from Emory University in Atlanta and resides in Highland Park, Pennsylvania. Today we will be discussing Michael's book Peaceful Neighbor. Discovering Countercultural— I'm sorry, let me read that again. We will be discussing Michael's book Peaceful Neighbor: Discovering the Countercultural Mr. Rogers, published by Westminster John Knox Press. In it, Long points out that while Rogers did not march with anti-war protesters, his programs and songs subtly dealt with issues of justice and love. And we are so grateful to have you on the show today, Michael. Welcome to Voices in My Head.

Ah, Rick, it's great to be in your neighborhood today. Thanks for inviting me.

Well, I am so glad to have you here. Your book is wonderful, Peaceful Neighbor: Discovering the Countercultural Mr. Rogers. Just because I can't pronounce it right in the introduction doesn't mean I don't love it. Uh, it has been a wonderful resource for me. I have learned so much more about Fred Rogers and what he has done. Before we get too far into this, I do want to read a quote from one of my favorite theologians, Stanley Hauerwas. Who has a little blurb about your book, and I think it's, it's right on. He said, we know Mr. Rogers was a gentle soul, but we did not know until Michael Long's Peaceful Neighbor that Rogers' nonviolence was shaped by his profound theological convictions. In this insightful book, Long makes clear that peace is a challenge to the imagination and helps us imagine peace through his eloquent portrayal of Fred Rogers. And that was Stanley Hauerwas of Duke Divinity School. That's pretty high praise coming from Stanley Hauerwas, my friend.

Oh, I'm grateful to Professor Hauerwas for that kind quote. He's, he's somebody I look up to. His work is profoundly significant in my life, the lives of many. So yes, I'm very pleased with that. Thank you, Rick.

Certainly. Yes. Well, we are so glad to have you here on the show today. I know that you, like many of us, And hopefully a lot of our listeners at home have been able to see the documentary Won't You Be My Neighbor, which is about Fred Rogers. And one reason that I wanted to have you on the show today, not only did that film just recently come out on digital for people to be able to, to buy it and rent it in their own homes now, they don't have to go to the theater anymore if they didn't get a chance to see it in, in the limited showings. Um, but now that it, it is at a place where many of us can watch it if we haven't already. I wanted to talk to you because there are several things that I knew from your book that they did not touch on in the documentary, and I thought, oh, I wish they would have consulted Michael on this because there's so much more that, that could have, uh, they could have gotten into. So let's start out by just asking, what did you think of the new film Won't You Be My Neighbor?

Oh, I like the documentary. Sometimes when historians watch documentaries about subjects they've written about Uh, they tend to be picky, and they can— they tend to point out all the inaccuracies. And while I can do some of that, I will say that I enjoyed the documentary thoroughly, and I found some of the footage absolutely touching. I think the footage that I found most touching related to Mr. Roger, or Fred Rogers, working with special needs children.

Yes.

And some of my favorite photographs come from those activities that he engaged in quite a bit. And, um, you know, I found myself tearing up during the documentary too. Uh, and I guess I'm a sentimental person, but I think very highly of Fred Rogers, and the documentary did a great job of showing his, uh, excellent moral character. And not only his moral character, but the really the good works that he carried out, uh, making his faith come to expression in his everyday life. So I like the documentary on that level. Uh, of course, did I find things missing? Yes, I did. One of the things that Morgan Neville didn't really pick up on, Rick, was, uh, Mr. Rogers— or Fred Rogers' theology and the theological convictions that really fueled his work as a television producer and director.

And, and that's one thing that I really enjoyed about your book was finding a lot of those things. I I think I had always known in the back of my mind, well, he was a minister, so certainly his theology formed him, but your book really helps us to pinpoint exactly how that influenced, and in some really powerful ways. I have a feeling, and I've said this to a few people now, that people are affected by a film like this and by people like Fred Rogers, specifically Fred Rogers right now, because he had a gentle way of living out his discipleship in the world that wasn't preachy. And I'm not even sure people realized that's what he was doing. But in people being so, um, drawn to him, I think it's because of the Jesus in him, which is why they are drawn to him. And they may not even know that. At least I think that's why I am so drawn to him, because I think he had a very unique way, and a very, in many ways, quiet ways of living out that call to be a disciple. And he, he didn't have to, as, as this, the phrase of Saint Francis about preach the gospel at all times, if necessary use words, it seems like at times he would just show it.

And, uh, that's exactly right. I'm really glad you picked up on that. Uh, one of the— I'll back up and just say that Fred Rogers not only believed in peace He was peace. Thích Nhất Hạnh, the Zen Buddhist monk, talks about being peace. And if you look at Fred Rogers in his everyday life, he really was peace. He embodied that sense of calmness and that sense of justice at the same time. I don't want to ignore that sense of justice that he had, but he moved slowly, he talked slowly. When you watch the program, you have a sense of calmness that sort of emanates from him and invites us into that calmness too. So in the sense that we think of peace as a sense of feeling settled and comfortable with ourselves and inviting of others, he certainly embodied all of that. And to connect this to Jesus more directly, I'd say that Fred Rogers— for Fred Rogers, Jesus was the Prince of Peace. He really was. And then if I could push this a little bit further, Rick, I'd say that for Rogers, God is somebody who resides within us. Fred Rogers was a Presbyterian minister, but he wasn't the type of minister or type of Presbyterian who envisioned God as removed in the heavens, immortal, invisible, God only wise, as some of us sing on Sunday mornings. But for him, God was a gentle presence within each person. And he referred to God in some points as that inner light. And when Fred spoke like that, he really sounded to me like a Quaker, like George Fox, more than a Presbyterian. And I think if we push Fred, he would concede that, though I certainly don't want to speak for him. But he did speak of the inner light within people And because he saw that inner light of God within himself and within others, he saw every reason to be in communion with others and certainly not to harm them by any means whatsoever. So I really think that those two spiritual foundations fueled his pacifism. On the one hand, he saw Jesus as being the Prince of Peace who taught peace, who embodied peace and non-violence. And then on the other, he saw God as a being who resided within us and gave us reason to invite others into our lives.

That's very interesting. And I think that I have read numerous times where he would refer to the divine spark that was within people, when we talk about that light that he would talk about. And I think that's kind of a beautiful way of stating it. And a few times on the Twitter feed that I have of Mr. Rogers, I've included quotes of of him where he talks about the divine spark that's in people. And it's something, again, I don't know that people always know it, but I do think it's the Jesus in him that he's referring to in those moments.

And, you know, his favorite parables of Jesus were those about the lost sheep and the lost coin. So the former one speaks of a sheep owner who leaves behind 99 sheep, right? To find the one that has strayed. And the latter one speaks of a woman who lost one of her 10 coins, and then she lights a lamp, sweeps the house, searches the house until she finds it. And Rogers loved those parables. He saw God as the woman in the latter one and the shepherd in the former. And he loved that vision of God because for him, God was somebody who never ever gives up on anyone. He— this God sees everyone as capable of redemption, not as capable of— not as— not as people who should be killed or sent to the eternal flames, but as always capable of redemption. That's the type of God that Rogers believed in. And when you talk about seeing Jesus in Rogers, I like that a lot, especially because Rogers believed that by telling stories, he was reflecting Jesus' own methods, own ways of spreading the gospel. And for Rogers, he was in many ways subtle in communicating his faith, especially on the television program, but he saw that as sharing the gospel through parables, through telling stories as Jesus did.

Well, a good example of that, our bedtime routine for my son lately, who is 5 years old. He just started kindergarten this week. Um, our bedtime routine for him—

congratulations!

Oh, thank you. It all changes now, for sure.

It does.

But one thing that has been very good, not only for him but for us, is just before bed we put on an episode of Mr. Rogers, and it kind of calms all of us, you know, to the point. And last night, the episode we watched, again, it was, it was sort of parabolic And he was talking about when children play games and sometimes, like in a game like hide and seek, children will cry because they're scared that their friend won't come back or they don't know where they are. And he talks to them very gently and kindly in that episode about it's not a nice thing to laugh at someone when they're crying or to make fun of them. He said the best thing for us to do is to find out why they're crying. And, you know, see if we can get to it. And there's something that is so true about that and very, to me, gospel-oriented about going to the need of someone, not just pointing out like, oh, look at them, they're in this state, but to say, let's stop and ask why they're in this state. How can we help? What would be the kindest thing to do, you know, in this situation? And that's just one of many examples that I think we see that subtle form of the gospel being played out in the show, you know.

May I follow up on that?

Certainly, certainly.

When he was a little boy, Fred Rogers, uh, was overweight and shy, and his parents were very protective of him. And they arranged for one of their, uh— I don't want to— how do I want to put this? They arranged for a young man named George Allen, who was an African-American who worked in the Rogers household, to drive Fred to and from school every day. That's how protective his parents were. School wasn't that far away, but one day George couldn't pick him up and Fred had to walk home. And he was afraid, very afraid, because he thought— and this is exactly what happened— there would be a gang of boys who would chase him. So he's walking home, he's walking fast, and a gang of boys start to chase him. And they call him Fat, and they say, hey, Fat Freddy, we're gonna get you! And Fred is just terrified, and he starts to run. He dashes into a neighbor's house, and there the adults tell him never to mind those boys, they don't know what they're talking about, and so forth. And at that point, Fred was really angry. He says later he was angry because he did mind those boys, and he did want the freedom to mind those boys and to be upset about them. And he was upset because As he puts this later, they couldn't see beyond his fatness. This is— these are Fred's words. They couldn't see what was essential to him. What was essential was invisible to the eye. And this becomes one of Roger's favorite quotes. He draws it from a book, The Little Prince. What's essential is invisible to the eye. And so he resented the fact that these boys who chased him couldn't see what was essential to him. And what was essential to Fred— and he said this was essential to all of us— is that all of us are lovable and capable of loving. And he resented that others couldn't always see that within him. And so he built this entire program, Rick, where he wanted children to feel as if they were lovable and capable of loving, and that all others were lovable and capable of loving. And he did this because he didn't want children to feel separated from themselves or from others. He wanted them to connect on this essential point. It's a very, very powerful story that has to do with feelings of separation. And there's another powerful story that I can tell you if you have time.

Oh sure.

About the— about feelings of abandonment and separation that Fred was concerned about. Uh, when he was a young father, uh, he lived in Canada. He and Joanne, his wife, lived in Canada at the point— at this point. And they had to take their younger son to the hospital. I believe it was for tonsillitis. And when the hospital staff came out to get son in the hallway, Fred recounts that they just took the younger son and wheeled him down the hallway. And as he's being wheeled down the hallway, the boy is just screaming unbelievably, and he is terrified as well. And Fred and Joanne are horrified that, as Fred puts this later, that their younger son has been ripped from their arms and they haven't really had the time to prepare him in the hospital for what's about to come. And after this, Fred says their younger son experiences some emotional problems, and Fred traces it to that sense of abandonment that the younger son felt at that point in the hospital. And because of that formative event, which was horrific to Fred and Joanne, he spent a lot of his career making sure that children didn't experienced that type of abandonment throughout the rest of their lives.

Wow.

Yeah, these are two really formative, powerful stories, and they connect to King— they connect to Roger's spirituality and his belief that God does not abandon anyone.

Those are powerful, powerful stories for sure. And it's that kind of information that is why I love your book so much, because I'm able to read much more than what we would ever find out about just on The Neighborhood when you watch the show. And if we could for a minute, I don't know how many of these will actually be able to get through, but I have a few things that sort of are highlights of things that you bring out in your book today. So if you don't mind, I'd like to just maybe touch on a few of these and let you speak to them. If we have time, we'll get through— I've got about 10 of them, but if we don't, we'll get through 1 or 2 and we'll have you back as a guest later on. But there really is so much to unpack, so much good information in your book, and it really is a joy to be able to read about so many really behind-the-scenes things. And it's almost a spiritual biography of Fred Rogers when you're reading this. And I want to talk about first one of the, one of the great myths that is still floating around even after this documentary has come out, even after wonderful books like yours There's still this myth that goes around on the internet. People bring it up almost weekly about Mr. Rogers being a Navy SEAL or, you know, like someone that was a sniper or an assassin during the Vietnam War. And the thing, you know, it's complete fabrication and myth about him, but it still goes around. In fact, Rogers, as you point out in your book, he was really an uncompromising pacifist. And when Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood debuted in 1968, the height of the Vietnam War was happening. And during the very first week of his programming, he did something very unique. Would you want to speak a little bit to that?

Sure. He develops these programs, as you said, in the first week the program goes national, in which King Friday, the bumbling king of the neighborhood of Make-Believe, sort of freaks out because things are changing in the neighborhood. And because he doesn't like things that change, he puts up a border wall and he has some armed guards who are guarding the neighborhood. And he does this because he doesn't like things that change, right? This is part of Fred's creativity, right? Creativity and subtlety, right?

Yeah.

And then it— then some people who descend in the neighborhood, Lady Elaine and Lady Averlyn, finally convince the king, uh, that he really doesn't need the border guards at all. And they do this by floating peace balloons, balloons with peaceful messages. And King Friday sees these balloons and he thinks they're paratroopers, and he calls for his guards to shoot them down. But they're really peace balloons, and they end up converting the king to peace. But in this first week, what Fred does at the end of the program, he simply says, war isn't nice. And as you point out, this is at the height of the Vietnam War— one of the heights, I should say. And in that first week, he is sharing the message that in the neighborhood there's not going to be war. There might be war outside raging in Vietnam, and there might be a war fever in the United States, but in the neighborhood of weak belief— neighborhood of make-believe— war has no place. That's a very powerful message, especially given that It's the first week the program goes national. Now, throughout the rest of the Neighborhood of Make Believe and throughout the rest of Mister Rogers' Neighborhood, Fred continues to develop programs in response to military excursions and wars that the United States engages in. And I can talk about some of those if you'd like me to. Oh, sure. But so, in 1983, during the height of the nuclear arms race against the Soviet Union during the Reagan administration, when President Reagan develops a nuclear weapon and names it the Peacemaker. Mr. Rogers develops programs, a week of programs called Conflict, Peace and Conflict, in which he depicts King Friday once again as sort of a bumbling king, bumbling and confused king, who sees that one of his neighbors in a neighboring community has ordered 1 million parts from a manufacturer in the neighborhood of Make-Believe. And King Friday imagines that his neighbor has ordered these parts to build weapons. He thinks they're parts for weapons. And so in response, King Friday orders 1 million and 1 parts. It's a nuclear arms race in the neighborhood of Make-Believe. And then finally the king comes around to recognizing, through dissenters in the neighborhood, that these parts that are ordered by a neighboring community are parts to build a bridge between that community and other communities. And so the king finally, uh, says that he's wrong. And he's also wrong, his neighbors point out, because he's taken money from schools, from musical programs for schools, to buy these parts, which he thinks are parts for weapons. Isn't that amazing?

It is.

So in this program, Rogers is criticizing not only the nuclear arms race, but he's criticizing policies that take money from social programs to benefit the education of children to use those monies for the construction of weapons. It is one of the most powerful shows on Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood. Then again, after, uh, during the Iraq War, the first Iraq War, Fred Rogers develops programs that criticize, uh, that war as well. And there are others too, but so those are some of the more powerful ones.

Yeah, and, and again, it was just— it's interesting that you point that out too, that in the land of make-believe and in the neighborhood on my show, this is going it's going to happen. And I often get told, because of my own nonviolent stance as a disciple of Jesus, I often get told, "You're living in a make-believe world," you know, things like that. And I often want to say, well, you have to imagine something before you can live it out, don't you? And don't we have to be people who have a holy imagination that would help us to live in a different realm, you know, that helps us to live in a different kingdom than the one that tells us we constantly have to be at war and constantly have to be hurting others. And so that's one thing that I really do appreciate about even his emphasis on, you know, let's have some make-believe time, and we go in and tell these parables and these stories. And if anything, you know, Jesus's parables, they aren't make-believe. They are a way to help us increase our imagination, I think. I, I just feel like that's such a strong part of what Fred Rogers did on the show too.

Rick, that's lovely. Uh, what Rogers really encourages us to do is to develop our moral imagination, and he does this through the Neighborhood of Make-Believe, where he can— where he uses his moral imagination to construct an alternative polis. This is a society that has values that are contrary to wider society's values. And so in the neighborhood of make-believe, we see the values of peace, we see the values of equality, we see the values of justice, we see so many values that we don't see in wider society. Now I will say this, uh, to your critics as well, that recent studies, especially by Erica Chenoweth and others, have indicated that non-violence has been much more effective in solving many social problems than violence has been. And a lot of data are, uh, proving that these days. So I just encourage your critics to encourage that new dad to look at that new data and then to connect it to Mr. Rogers' parables and see how effective they can be in today's world.

Sure, definitely. And but it takes hard work, and it takes— it does— it takes a real commitment to that, for sure. Well, let's move on to another part that I sometimes receive some criticism, but I admire Fred Rogers on this for. And let's talk a little bit about his stance on racial diversity, because it was, it was not long after the inner-city riots erupted following the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. And you talk about in your book that Mr. Rogers introduced the character of a Black police officer and keeping everyone safe in the neighborhood, Francois Clemmons. And he debuted as Officer Clemmons on August 1st in 1968. I wonder if you could speak to us a little bit about that and why Mr. Rogers was so intentional about that and what that meant to him.

Right. So don't let me forget to talk about the fuel behind this, okay?

Sure.

But I want to back up a little bit and go back to that first week the program broke goes, goes national. In that first week, Fred Rogers arranges for Mr. Rogers to be in his house and to answer the door. And at the door is Mrs. Saunders. She's an African-American teacher, and she brings a group of interracial students into Mr. Rogers' house, and they have a lovely visit. And in the context, in the social and historical context of the day, Fred Rogers is saying Yes, there is segregation in our public education and in our private education beyond the Neighborhood of Make Believe, but in the Neighborhood of Make Believe and in my neighborhood, in my television neighborhood, African Americans and whites will play together, will study together, and will live together, and we'll get along together. That happens in the first week again, Rick. This is incredible. And you have to dig, obviously, and you have to set these programs in context to understand all this. But yeah, in April 1968, over 100 cities in the United States erupt after the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. And Fred sits down and he wonders what he is to do. And he knows all these images of African Americans rioting and in fiery settings are flooding into the homes of children. And so we— what he does, he comes up with this countercultural figure, and the countercultural figure is Officer Clements, and this is an African American police officer in the neighborhood. How shocking would that be to all those millions of children who are watching the program to see not an African American rioting, as they see weekly and daily in their own homes, but an African American police officer and one who, and one who is friendly on top of it all. One who doesn't look mean, one who doesn't look angry, but one who is friendly and inviting and keeps good order in the neighborhood. So yes, Fred Rogers brings Officer Clemens into the neighborhood and the neighborhood of make-believe, and he does that later. He also introduces a character called Mayor Maggie. She's an African-American mayor in a neighboring community, in the neighborhood of Make Believe. She is in effect the equal to King Friday, who's a white king, and that's a pretty radical message of racial integration there as well. But if I can back up to Officer Clemens, I'll say that one of the more powerful scenes of Mister Rogers' Neighborhood, which many people know about, is when Mr. Rogers and Officer Clemens are sitting at a wading pool in Mr. Rogers' backyard, and Mr. Rogers invites Officer Clemens to dip his feet into the wading pool. And the camera shows Mr. Rogers' white pasty feet and, and Officer Clemens' black feet together in water. Now, if you set this in context, You can contrast it to the racially segregated swimming pools that existed all over at the time. And really that message of those four feet in the same, in the same swimming pool, in the same wading pool at the same time, really reflects Rogers' commitment to racial integration. Now later on, there's another scene in which he gives a towel to Officer Clemens and helps Officer Clemens dry his feet, and there that is clearly reflective of Jesus, I think, washing his disciples' feet. So we got a religious theme there as well. Sure. So Rick, what's driving all this? Well, I think not only does Fred Rogers' spiritual conviction drive this, but I think some of his childhood experiences with George Allen, the a young African American who worked in Rogers' home, drove this as well. George Allen really helped rear Fred Rogers. He was a good friend, a big brother to Fred. He helped Fred learn about jazz, which comes through on the program. He introduced Fred not only to jazz, but a lot of the education that Fred experienced as a young man, including flying a Piper airplane. George Allen was a pilot, and he helped Fred be— learn how to fly a plane. And Fred just thought the world of George Allen. And I think those early experiences with an older African-American brother, so to speak, really helped Fred communicate his desire for racial integration later on.

That's some powerful Well, and you know what, you kind of got into my next one anyway, and we won't have to cover it as much now. But the next point that you bring out in your book was about Maggie of Southwood, who was mayor. And she was 14 years before an African woman, or an African American woman, would actually become a real-life mayor in the United States. 14 years before that, that was when Fred did it on his show. And it comes right into the next point, which, which will flow right into this, that I also want to talk about a bit while I had you here, was just the way that Fred lifted up women as well, not just African-American women, but women. And on his show, as you point out in your book, that more than 10 years before Sally Ride became the first US woman in space, Fred arranged for his arguably most colorful puppet, Lady Elaine Fairchild, to fly to Jupiter and discover the Planet Purple along the way. And then in 1974, 2 years before Barbara Walters became the first woman anchor of a major evening news program, Lady Elaine also became an anchoring anchor of the news in the television neighborhood. So, uh, it's, it's amazing when it— when you think about all this in the context that you bring out, that this happened so much more before the rest of the world. And it's sort of like helping our imagination imagination to get there first.

Good. Yes, Fred is ahead of the curve, and he's ahead of the curve exactly because his— not only his moral imagination, but his theological imagination, his spiritual imagination. Yes, in some ways he, uh, what do I want to say, bent the gender norms of his day. Uh, you know, during that first year, children would see Fred, a man, coming into his house during the middle of the afternoon when many of the fathers were away at work. Here's a man who's about their father's age coming into their homes and saying that he wants to be their friend. That's pretty revolutionary in 1968. And not only do they see Fred coming into their homes asking to be their friend, but there he is wearing an apron, and there he is wearing an— or ironing clothes. There he is washing the dishes and washing clothes. And these are, these are chores that they typically associate with their mom, right? And Fred is sort of bending that, but he also bends it with women too. And you mentioned Lady Elaine Fairchild, and I'll just follow up by saying that there's one episode in which she says, I'm tired of being a lady, and then she goes into a litany of what she would like to do. And what she would like to do, uh, were these activities that were normally associated with boys and men. And Fred encourages Lady Elaine, uh, through the Neighborhood of Make-Believe to undertake these tasks. He also encourages boys to cry and to play with girls' toys as well. It is just delightful for me to see, looking back after all these years, just how revolutionary Fred was early on. Hmm.

Yeah, it really is amazing. And the way that you bring those things together in your book, Peaceful Neighbor, it really makes a connection that I would not have known about. And I wasn't even alive for a lot of those times. So to me, it's helping people like me who are, you know, I never met Fred. I watched him as a kid, but I didn't know all this was going on behind the scenes and the things that were causing his mind to operate. And I wonder, you know, if my own 5-year-old, how much he's picking up on or what he finds. He finds the neighborhood very delightful and kind of a refuge place, I think, to go to. And this is off topic of what I was going to talk about, but it's interesting because after Fred will watch an episode with my son and after Fred is done talking to him through the TV screen to all of us, We have this little toy of Fred Rogers that Pop Vinyl recently came out with, and it's, uh, it's just a— it's got Fred Rogers holding a trolley. And my son will start having conversations with Fred after the shows are over at night. And so I will kind of, almost like Fred will do with the puppets and become this other personality— it's interesting because he will talk to that little toy of Fred Rogers about so many different things, and I just sort of reply along and the best Fred Rogers voice I can. But it's, it's interesting to me the way that that show, all these years later, and we're watching it here now, that, that he will still respond. My own son will respond in ways that we can't get him to talk half the time. You know, yes, yesterday we came home and, so how was your first day of kindergarten? It was good. That's about all we got, you know. But, but when I got out the Fred Rogers toy, the talk to him, we just got so much information about the day. It was so interesting.

You know, that doesn't surprise me. And Fred saw the power of puppets that way. There's one point where he's in Moscow. He's, he's planning to appear on a children's program in Moscow, Rick. This is, uh, during the Cold War, and this is during the nuclear arms age, nuclear weapons age. And he's meeting with these Moscow representatives, uh, representatives of the government, and they're really not getting anywhere in their negotiations. And guess what Fred does? He pulls out a puppet during the middle of the meeting with these government representatives.

That's amazing.

He pulls out Daniel the Tiger, and he speaks in Daniel the Tiger's voice. And he says later on that just, just loosened up the representatives of the government to talk more freely. And so That's exactly what I thought of when you told me that great story about you and your son. Uh, yes, I'm really glad to hear that. And Fred recognized the power of puppets. You know, I want to make two comments about that story you just mentioned. One is that Fred was really concerned about commercialism, and so he never gave permission for any of his puppets to appear in stores. To be sold, and nor did he ever give permission of his own likeness to appear in stores to be sold. And this is because he felt as if he did not want to appear as a huckster, as he put it. This is his word, a huckster to children. And he thought it was wrong for people involved in children's programming to sell children's programming items to children. And their adults and their parents. He just thought that was wrong because it was another example of branding, branding our children. I'm not certainly not faulting you for having a Mr. Rogers puppet because I think that Fred might have been a little too tight on this point. And that's because puppets can play such a key role in children's development. And I think that if they could have purchased puppets, probably they could have— children could have had a lot more or greater experiences as your son is experiencing now. The other point I want to make is that one that you touched on early on is that, and that is that children always can't immediately grasp these messages that Fred is communicating, but nor can adults. I mean, you have to look very closely, and sometimes you have to put these episodes in their historical context to grasp them fully. And here's where I'll point to his embrace of vegetarianism. Fred was a vegetarian beginning in the 1970s. He certainly wasn't always a vegetarian, but in the 1970s he became one. And he visits restaurants during Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood, but unless you look really closely, you won't see this in every image of a restaurant. You will not see anyone eating meat in all the footage of restaurants he provides. Nobody— no, none of the customers in these restaurants eat meat or even chicken. Uh, they're all eating cheese or they're all eating bread. Fred Rogers said that he could never eat anything that has a mother, and for him, I think This, this was connected to his spiritual belief that God is everywhere. In many ways, he was a pantheist. He saw God as pervading creation. And so Fred really believed, uh, that his spirituality drove the way that he ate too, not only the way that he lived. And he had a simple life, though he was very wealthy. Let's not make any mistake about that. Fred was very wealthy. He lived very comfortably, but he also sought to live simply, and part of his simple living was an embrace of vegetarianism. And that's a subtle message that you get through the show, and you have to look very hard for that.

That's very interesting. Well, unfortunately, on my end of things, I'm starting to run out of time, so I'm gonna have to start closing our conversation down a little bit here today. But I want to encourage everyone to, to check out your book because there's so much more information than we've— we've just barely scratched the surface at all about Peaceful Neighbor: Discovering the Countercultural Mr. Rogers. Again, my guest is Michael G. Long, and he is the author of this book. And before we finish up today, I just want to read a few of the, the chapter headings so people have an idea of how your book flows. It's a two-part book with Part 1 being "War and Peace in the Neighborhood" and then Part 2 as "Peace as More Than the Absence of War." And so here are a few of the chapter headings: "Isn't Peace Wonderful?" against the Vietnam War for Gandhi. Another chapter, "War Isn't Nice," against the arms race for peaceful imagination. Chapter 3, "I Like You," against the Cold War The Puppet for Détente. Chapter 4, Just the Way You Are: A Theology of Peace. There's a chapter on It's Okay to Be Angry: A Psychology of Peace. A Gross Form of Abuse: From the Persian Gulf War to the War on Terror. So there are numerous things. And then we get into A Black Brother: Race and Diversity is one of the chapters. Food for the World: Tears for Hungry Children. As you already referred to today, I'm Tired of Being a Lady, Tough sensitive boys, and numerous other things. I don't want to read the entire index of your book, but there are just so many things that this book touches on, including homosexuality, which is something he never got into on the show really, but is very closely connected with, with François Clemens. And it's interesting in the book to read about their relationship and the way that Fred had to in many ways adjust for the sake of the friendship and stretch himself in new and different ways. And I just find it fascinating, the whole book. And I so appreciate the work that you have done in bringing this to us. I think it's a great resource, and I think it's going to be a very helpful resource for many people in the days to come as we continue to know more and more about Fred. In closing the show today, and you may have some other comments as well, but I am often asked, because I run this Mr. Rogers quotes Twitter feed, @MrRogersSay, is the @MrRogersSay. I'm constantly getting instant messages with— I mean, daily I get instant messages from people, or I'll get a comment on the site, and people are constantly asking me, what do you think Fred Rogers would do today in the climate that we are in. And, uh, you know, it just seems like everyone is so filled with anger, and, and it's very driven by politics and many different things. People are very depressed. People are so exhausted from it in many ways. As a matter of fact, I had a person the other night tell me that the quote that I put on the page may have very well saved their life that evening because they said they needed it so desperately and were in a very desperate in a separate state, and said they read this quote from Fred, and said, "It might have just kept me from taking my life tonight." And I take that as a very sacred thing, you know, and I don't want to take that lightly. But I want to ask you, as someone who has done so much work into Fred Rogers, knowing the subtle ways that he carried himself in environments that have been hostile before, Right now is not the only hostile climate politically or in other ways, racially, that we have experienced in this country. What do you personally think would have been Fred's approach to times like these that we are finding ourselves in today?

Right. First, a qualification, and that is that historians never really want to talk about what a deceased person would do today.

Sure, sure.

But that aside, Rick, Let me take a shot. Um, he tells this familiar story, and I'm sure you know it since you've read the book and other things about Fred, that when he was a young boy and saw scenes of chaos on television or elsewhere, his mother would always say, look for the helpers. And this meant look for those who are helping those who are in need in this situation of violence or chaos. And that's what you should focus on, because there's the goodness that's going on. And the point was not only that he should look for the helpers, but that he should become one of those helpers as well. And I think this is really what Fred envisioned himself as, and that is helper in a world of chaos and in a world of violence and inequality and separation and basic meanness. He saw himself as a helper, somebody who is— who was going to those in need and bringing them into communion with him and showing them that they are lovable and capable of loving. Now, Fred did this was within the confines of his own personality. And so he was not somebody who would grab a picket and join a— and join a march. He was not somebody who would grab a bullhorn. He was not somebody who would try to levitate the Pentagon like Abbie Hoffman. But he was somebody who worked within his own gifts and skills, and this is what he encouraged people to do as well. Become a helper, but don't try to become just any helper. Don't try to become a helper that you cannot become, but recognize your own gifts and skills and use those to help out people in need in situations of violence and chaos and separation and abandonment. And so I think— I really think that that's an— that's advice that he gave consistently throughout his life, and that he would probably continue to give today. Now, I want to be a bit more direct and say that he did judge, and he judged politicians for separating parents from children. He judged situations of violence. He judged situations of inequality. But he did this not so much by pointing the finger as by building a community of helpers. And so he not only encouraged people to become individual helpers within their own limitations, but he encouraged individual helpers to build communities of help. And so Roger's point in developing this program, I believe, Rick is to build communities of helpfulness and hopefulness. And that's really the mission that I take away from Mister Rogers' Neighborhood and from Fred Rogers' life, and that is to go out and build communities of help and hope. And, you know, given our own beliefs, I think that it's easy for us to see those as communities that we can easily ground in our spiritual beliefs and that really should flow from our spiritual beliefs as well.

Sure.

I hope that helps.

No, that's very good. And I, again, I— it would be impossible for us to actually speak for him, but I do appreciate your insight as someone who's done a lot of work studying him in his life.

And that's wonderful, you know. And may I, given the audience that I know that you're appealing to to, and given the audience that I know that I appeal to sometimes as well, I would like to conclude with some thoughts, or at least maybe another parable about Fred's life. So in May 2001, Fred is walking to his office in downtown Pittsburgh after he takes his daily swim. He usually took a daily swim at 5 o'clock in the morning, believe it or not. He was very disciplined. And then after his swim he would get on the scales and see that his weight was 143, and he liked that because, uh, well, you can read the book to find out why he loved 143 as the number. It's a great number. But after he took his daily swim, he's walking on the street and he encounters this man who's arguing with his co-workers on the street about salvation. And this man spots Fred and he knows obviously who Fred is, as the rest of us do, and he grabs him. He physically grabs him and he says, "Tell these people there's only one way to God." And so this man is in some ways, uh, what do I want to say, the type of Christian who believes in the Gospel of John literally, where it says, "I'm the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, no one comes to the Father except through me." And this is really what's behind the man who's grabbing Rogers and saying, "Tell these people there's only one way to God." And Rogers stops, and he smiles, and he says, "God loves you just the way you are." Hmm. And for me, that's one of the most powerful parables about Rogers himself. And no matter what you think, whether you believe in that, the Gospel of John passage literally or not literally, that scene is worthy of consideration in and of itself. And I hope that those of you who listen to this today and who will share it, as I hope you will, with others, will think of that lesson as Rogers in his own essence. And there Rogers is saying to somebody else, God finds you lovable and capable of loving at all times, and I do too. Hmm.

Well, that's a beautiful thought for us to close on today. So Michael G. Long, his new book is Peaceful Neighbor: Discovering the Countercultural Mystery Mr. Rogers. I want to thank you again for your time today. I want to thank you again for your book, and I encourage all of our listeners to go out and read it. So Mike Long, thank you for being one of the Voices in My Head this week.

Thanks, Rick. Thanks for inviting me into the neighborhood.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com, follow me on Twitter at Rick Rick Lee James. Like my artist page at facebook.com/rickleejames and keep up to date on what I'm writing on my author page on Amazon. There's also the Voices in My Head Facebook community found at facebook.com/voicespodcast. And if you want to follow my alter ego on Twitter, follow my popular Mr. Rogers quote account found @MrRogersSay. Also, make sure to follow my appearance schedule on my website, and if you would like to have me come to your town to do a concert, a speaking engagement, or a book event, you can book me through my website at rickleejames.com/bookings. And it would mean the world to me if you would write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews we receive, the more visible this podcast is on the internet. And now the benediction. May the God of peace, who raised Christ from the dead, strengthen you in your inner being for every good work. And may the blessing of God Almighty, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, rest upon you and dwell within you this day and forevermore. Amen.