Voices In My Head Podcast Episode #307: Father of Christian Rock, Joseph Markko and The All Saved Fr

This episode of Voices in My Head is brought to you by Podbean. With Podbean, you can create professional podcasts in minutes without any programming knowledge. Best of all, everything is mobile ready right from the start. Visit podbean.com/voices to find out more. That's podbean.com/voices. Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, a songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more with friends, colleagues, and sometimes just by myself. Now make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes or by tweeting at me @RickLeeJames on Twitter. And please join my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com. Where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. By the way, in case you're interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the voices in my head. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of Voices in My Head.

In the fall of 1968, a small radio station in Ashtabula, Ohio unleashed a whole new genre of music upon their listeners when they aired the All Saved Freak Band's first recorded songs. It was the very first time anyone had ever heard the idiom of rock music being used to convey the message of the gospel. This was before Larry Norman and a full 5 years before the term contemporary Christian music would even be coined. The All Saved Freak Band's unique sound stemmed from its ensemble of 12 members skilled in rock, folk, blues, psychedelia, and classical music. ASFB, as it is abbreviated, blended those genres and sounds together to deliver straight, unvarnished lyrical truth, which countered the hedonism pervaded by much of rock and roll. What makes their work so worthy of reissue is the bold experimentation and superior musicianship on display, qualities critics often find lacking in the very early contemporary Christian genre they were pioneering. Their bold sound and stellar chops inspired and influenced a cult following among vinylheads and musicians alike, being name-dropped particularly by artists like Dan Auerbach of The Black Keys and Damian Jurado. Old Bear Records is reissuing multiple records from the All Saints Freak Band, and the first such release is being released. It's the 1976 LP Brainwashed. We're going to talk about that today. So today on Voices in My Head, after that very long introduction, I am honored to have Joseph Marko, one of the original members of the All Saved Freak Band. Joe, welcome to the Voices in My Head podcast.

Good day, Mr. Rick. Good day. Glad to be here. It's a privilege. I appreciate it very much.

Well, I am honored to have you here, and I've been fascinated by your story, reading more about it online and then discovering that you have a book, and then so many albums that are new to me. And as I've been listening through, I've really been enjoying the musicianship, the lyricism. Even this morning I sent a text over to our mutual friend Chris Hoisington and was quoting some of the album lyrics. Sodom and Gomorrah came down in dust, so the cities of America surely must, you know, things like that. Yeah. And I thought, man, this is, this is going to be a fun interview today. So first of all, as we get going, tell me a bit about yourself and your musical background, because I read that you were formally trained in 4 different instruments by the time you were the age of 12.

Yeah, that's correct. I went into a foster home just after I turned 8, and both of those good people were musicians, you know, good folks, and played accordion and trombone and ukulele. And they asked if I was interested in music, and I said sure, because I've been listening to it on the radio as long as I could remember. And so they got me lessons on instruments and it was, you know, it's a lifetime thing. It gets into your DNA and you just can't help it. You got to stay involved in it. So it changed the direction of my life. I first picked up guitar at age 13 and then my first recording was in Chess Studio in Chicago in 1964. We did 4 songs there distributed on Harlequin label. And then in 1968, I moved to Ohio and along with my pastor, we were the 2 co-founders and writers of Freak Band. We started that in the fall of 1968.

Well, that's great. I have to ask real quick, just before we get too far into the band, were you playing a lot in like school orchestras and bands and things like that? When you were a kid too? Because you have so many different styles just on Brainwashed alone. I'm just curious about the different styles maybe that you played growing up.

Yeah, I did. I wanted to be in the marching band, so I learned how to play trumpet because they needed trumpets. And that was in Villa Park, Illinois when I was a kid. And then I wanted to be in the 7th and 8th year orchestra, but they didn't need trumpets, they needed baritones. And by the time I was 12, we were playing overtures to Swan Lake. Like 12-year-olds do, you know. But we were still reading the music. And diversity is a big part of my background. When I first became a Christian, I spent a lot of time in the Assemblies of God and Southern Baptist churches. And Church of God in Christ African-American congregations. And so I absorbed a lot of things as I was growing up, a lot of different cultures, and I was just privileged. I feel blessed to have been in the right place at the right time a number of occasions.

Well, that kind of talent and background certainly does come through when I was listening to Brainwash today. I find that some of the music of that period, I mean, it could be, I guess, classified as more of a psychedelic-type period in music, and a lot of that music I don't always find super interesting because many times it just feels like the same thing over and over again. But I was so surprised when I first heard Brainwashed because it seemed like, as I've already mentioned, there were so many different styles that were found and different vocalists on the album. And it was just a breath of fresh air, something I just wasn't expecting at all. So I wonder if you could tell me a bit about the All Saints Freak Band and how it started, because I had read that you had started in a Christian commune near Orwell, Ohio, and you just mentioned your pastor. So what could you tell us about the origin story of the band?

Um, these— the, the band started, uh, strictly only, um, as an evangelistic tool. We had no notion of it ever in churches, and our, our church evangelism, street work, personal evangelism. We got tents at the county fair, we rented auditoriums, and, and the band and the music was so we could preach. There was no purpose in— we couldn't testify and preach at the same time. So that, that was a big part of what, what we were, we were doing. We took it seriously as a means for promoting the gospel. And, and that's why I think in large where the lyrics are right in your face because that's an evangelism, a street approach to evangelism. But at the same time, there were songs that were more classical bent, more along the monastic lines that John Michael Talbot and Terry Talbot would later— Pardon? More. Those elements are there as well because it was not just Larry and I as we started adding musicians, people brought their own skills. Their own writing abilities, and we felt it was incumbent upon us to give everybody an opportunity to contribute to what we were doing. I guess creating a book is like an act of worship in the sense that the overflow cup, oh, it just comes out. And so, you know, what were you thinking when you had that idea? What were you working on? I don't know, it's what comes out. So, you know, we continue to say this is marvelous in our eyes.

Well, that's great. I was reading a bit about some of the founding members, and I just wanted to make mention of them as we're having this conversation today, because the members included— co-founders were you and Larry Hill and Mike Berkey and Ed Derkos. Tom— if I get these names incorrect, you might have to help me— but Tom Aretano, Tim Hill, Morgan King, Norris McClure, Carole King— not of tapestry, a different Carole King— but right. And Randy Marco, Kim Massman, Pam Massman, Tom Miller, and rock guitarist Glenn Schwartz. And an interesting fact for our listeners is that Glenn Schwartz was the lead guitarist for the rock rock group The James Gang and was later replaced by Joe Walsh, and Pacific Gas and Electric, who recorded a top 20 song in 1969, "Are You Ready?" So there's really a pedigree of musicians that most bands don't have. And you were even from time to time joined by artists like Phil Keggy, who would come and— I don't believe he was ever an official member of the band, but people like that that would sit in with you. So I mean, quite a collection of people, and it's amazing to me that the goal was never really stardom as much as it was evangelism with musicians of this caliber. And I find that just to be fascinating. How do you remember the first sessions that you had recording with this group of people together? And when your goal is evangelism and not necessarily, you know, a top 10 hit, how How is that when you go into a studio like this?

Well, we were so blessed to have the two Massman sisters, whose father was the conductor of the University of Minnesota Orchestra. They played violin and cello their whole lives. They toured South America, quartet, chamber quartet. So there was a lot of good musicians adding to that. And we went into the studio. I'll tell you, I'm not sure what your audience is going to be, Russ, we went in the studio and it was, you prayed first, you keep yourself in order, and then we just did the songs. This album, we didn't even have a drum. And we only had enough money for full days. That's beginning to mastering completion. And so there's a lot of rough edges on that first album, My Poor Generation, a lot of rough edges on that. One of the consistent comments about the earliest recordings in particular was that it helped people believe that contemporary Christian music was possible and spiritual. That's something that for us, we never thought about. You know, like I said, it's just what comes out. It's what the Lord gave us. And it was ministry, full-time jobs we did. None of us ever made a dime from any of the recordings, including now. So far, when the CDs were released, all of the proceeds were given to a missionary in Chupe who was with us on our tour in Oruwayo. So it's never been about money. It's always about the gospel because there are broken people in this world who would like to be made whole, you know. And when you're dealing with evangelism and reaching out, you're trying you people who don't know they are drowning. And so your approach has got to be a little bit different. And we were that difference, I guess, just by the nature of who we were.

Sure. Well, I'd love to get your thoughts as we continue this conversation, because you really were pioneering Christian rock, but you were using it as an evangelism tool. And The All Saved Freak Band is considered really pioneers of Christian music, and I wonder if you're comfortable or what your feelings are on being designated of the founders of what the contemporary Christian music genre has become as an industry, because I think we could say in many ways it's a lot more an industry than it is an evangelism tool in some ways. I mean, not to say that that's completely wrong, completely lost, but it seems like your approach was, we never thought of playing in a church because we wanted to evangelize outside the church, and the approach has become, we're going to play almost exclusively now in churches. And I'd love to just kind of get your thoughts on where you find yourself in that mix of things and what your feelings are about being sort of a pioneer of what it's become.

Well, like Larry Norman, anybody that was actually there, you all kind of shun the title of originator. The thing I'm comfortable with is that we are widely recognized as the earliest pioneers of a musical expression that has since become known as Christian music. Sounds like I have memorized it, it's because I did. Just, there's, we were just tools, man. We were just instruments and we were, to be part of something that nobody else was doing at the time. Well, it was done in California by Fred Kaban. And Larry Norman left the group People in 1968, and he was looking for musicians to do his music, and he ran into this gentleman Fred Kaban and Agape. And that didn't work out. Larry went on to just be a singer-songwriter and built bands. Them. But when we started, there was no outlet, there was no market. And in about 1970 to 1977 in that neighborhood, that's when there became a vision in the music with people like Ralph Carmichael and Billy Ray Haines from Sparrow Records who hooked up with people like Andre Crouch and Keith Green. Later, people found Michael Talbot, and the music started to take a definite turn in the church then, as Keith Green was writing more hymn-like songs, and the Talbot brothers were writing songs from that Mennonite movement, so they were more monastic sounding. That's when the music kind of split off and went in the direction of the more polished image to be used for the churches. Folks like us didn't get the time of day. And the expression, the music was hijacked. But I wasn't the originator of the music. We always felt God was the originator of the music. And I later rested in the notion, you know what, God probably had both venues or both uses in mind from the beginning. So, you know, you just say, again, I go back to it, this is the Lord's doing. It is marvelous in our eyes. I know all of us former members just sit back and say, what in the world is going on now? So we're grateful.

Yeah, well, what a beautiful attitude you have about that, and that's a— what a wonderful way of understanding. This is the Lord's doing and it's marvelous in our eyes. Well, let's talk a little bit about what the Lord did around 1976 when the album Brainwashed was released. I specifically want to talk about that one because that's the one I've been listening to the most so far, and it's the one that a Old Bear Records are going to be releasing on their first effort of a vinyl reissue called Old Bear Reissued. And tell us a bit about that particular album and really what it was like recording that, because that's the one that has captured me with a lot of intricate musical stylings in addition to just having some really in-your-face evangelistic message behind it, which is something that I think is rare even to this day. Tell us about that album and kind of what it means to you.

We started recording two albums in 1972, and when we got done with them, we realized they were just so completely different sounding, and I think it was 20 songs, that we decided to put them out in two different albums. Brush was the more rock and roll edge to it with some string, you know, lots of harmonies nice things. The album that came from that was called Christians, Elves and Lovers. That's a whole different story in its own, that title. But we chose to do the Brainwash because we felt it was more timely for where we were at. And Christians, Elves and Lovers is some of the best for music, musicality out of all of them. But that was, we didn't add a drummer on that one, the Brainwashed, until halfway through recordings.

Really?

Yeah. Wow. We clapped our hands, hey, we're being stars. We're doing what we had with what we got. And so we added a drummer halfway through, Tom Aretano, and he created a blessing ever after. It's interesting because we had all come from the strict Christian concept that rock and roll is bad, that it is not conducive with a, a holy holiness mindset or a spiritual lifestyle. And that's the way, you know, I got saved when I was 13 years under Teen Challenge. All of that street stuff was anathema. So we wrestled with whether this was of God or not. You know, this was legitimate, whether it was too worldly. And we did come up with a powerful answer for that. No revelations, no prophecies, no nothing. Following an impulse for which we felt good peace in our own spirits. And there was no place to play it, because churches wouldn't let us. There were no venues, no place on a record store shelf for the music, because it didn't exist., but we just felt that this was right, that we were supposed to be doing this. And so you put one foot in front of the other and God gets the increase.

Yeah, well, you know, it's very interesting that you say that now in the times that we live in. And I've heard people like Phil Keggy, who, you know, played with your band, which is very impressive, that whether he just sat in or when you guys were to and with some of his earlier music. But I've heard him say things like that exact thing, like, we didn't really have an audience and churches wouldn't have us. And I find that just fascinating, the way that times have changed today, where oftentimes churches, when you walk into them, there'd be little to distinguish you from being at a secular concert, you know, when you walk in the doors today. And I just think, my, how times have changed, or to think of a time when, when somebody like a Phil Keaggy wouldn't find a place to play in a church. It's just a whole different time to me. But I— but, oh, sorry, please.

We met when the— after the Kent State killings in 1970. Just like when, um, David Wilkerson felt Michael Farmer killings— and killing in New York is what called him to the street. We felt the Lord was calling us, and I hope I'm not spooky about this, talking like this. No. But we felt it in our hearts that we were supposed to go to the streets of Kent. And we started playing at the Student Union building. We found a place to use. Finally at Joe Bujak's, JB's Bar on Water Street. And we met Phil down there. My brother Randy actually went to his house on Summit Street. It had a somewhat notorious reputation because all the band members be there. People were in and out. He actually held Bible studies there every week with Phil.

Hmm.

And, uh, string guitar, and he would break out his— just enjoy the evening together going through Bible studies and things of the Christian faith, justification, regeneration, holiness, those kinds of things. And when Glenn was— couldn't make a— I think it was about 3 Sundays he couldn't play Phil sat in for us, and that was a joy. That was a joy, yeah.

Wow, well, that's terrific. And he's an influence to so many of us, and to think that you guys really truthfully, I'm sure, were an influence on him as well, and that's a powerful thing. It's got to be hard to be people who are pioneering something that's never been done before, and I always find that fascinating because When it does happen, when you are sort of, for lack of a better term in my mind right now, when you're that rock that's making the splash in the water, it seems like after that you find lots of different people riding the ripples out. Yeah. And it seems like that's a lot what had happened with your band, with you kind of creating these new things. And yet, unfortunately, until recently with Chris, I didn't even realize that the All Save Freak Band was a part of our history and really an important part of our history. It's interesting to me, just again, as you've talked about earlier, things that I think God might be doing and building up and helping us to rediscover at this time, that things like the reissue of the vinyl that's about to come out, we really get a chance to hear some of the rich things that people my age missed the first time around, and things that I still feel like, as those of us who try to respect where we came from in our music and in our faith, and even in our approaches to evangelism, I think we're gonna find that this really is something beneficial for us today as well. So I really appreciate Old Bear and you working together on this project, and you allowing them to use this as the first reissue for their new line of music that they're doing.

We are grateful for their interest. I mean, trust me, it's been a long slug since we've had anybody give us the time of day about anything. And the music has been a long time, long time. And in those days, as they've mentioned before, there were no venues, there were no Christian radio stations. You had to compete with secular radio. And when you're competing with everybody from the Allman Brothers to Frank Zappa, you have to have some merit to your music. Because, I mean, but that was where we felt we were supposed to be. Was in that market. And we never compromised on our lyrics. It was clear we weren't talking girlfriend. It's very clear, you know, we were talking about prophetic things and, and all based on Scripture. Behold, O Saul, went forth Saul bearing precious seed in his hand. Uh, kinds of songs that we sang, all based from that. And, and that, I think, is one of the things that ought to stand the test of time because, because the scripture really, and the lyrics of a song, the lyrics of contemporary Christian music are the thing that differentiate it from the secular. And the problem that people have had with contemporary Christian music from the beginning is that it tends to blur the line between sacred and secular, and that's becoming even more so, I think, by what I would call lyrics in contemporary music.

Can you, can you say that again? I'm sorry, you cut out for just a moment with your call. You said something about lyrics, you call it, but then I didn't hear what you said.

Well, the lyrics in contemporary music are the only things that differentiate it from secular. Sure. Big rap on contemporary Christian music is that that line anyhow. Your lyrics aren't distinctive, then nobody— but that's just my opinion.

Sure. Well, and there are many out there, and there's many of us that, you know, I spent the whole weekend having conversations about sort of the state of Christian music right now with, with the Brothers McClure guys, and it was a fun and fascinating conversation to have. And so I'm, I'm really interested to see the response to this reissue of of this vinyl and some of the conversations it may open and some of the music that it may inspire. And while I want to talk and spend most of our time today talking about the Brainwashed album, we have just a few minutes left, and I would love it if you would take a moment because you're also a writer, and you wrote a book called When Sunday Comes: Memoirs of a Survivor, and it was actually awarded honorable mention for the best autobiography of 2011 by New York, London, New England, and Hollywood book festivals, and it's currently available on Amazon, Barnes Noble, and Baker-Taylor Books. Would you mind just talking for a minute about that book and how that came to be?

I started writing my book after great, great personal failure, where I betrayed all my vows to God and everybody else, and I was at a very, very— I mean, at the lowest my life, excuse me, and I started writing to kind of help sort things out for myself. 14 years writing, part because so much of it was painful, in part because I wanted to make sure that there were no— that I wasn't casting shade on anybody, you know, just telling the truth and just telling the story and not trying to make anybody a villain. I just wanted it to be as as possible, and so it took a while to do that, but it's being— the screenplay is supposed to be finished in August. It's been 3 years. I sold the rights to a studio who had been working on a screenplay for a movie.

Congratulations.

Well, thank you. We'll see what happens, you know, but the writing of the book was a real challenge for me. And what can I say? I finished it, I put it down, and I moved on.

Sure, yeah. Well, that's— but I'm fascinated by it, and I look forward to reading it, and I'll especially look forward to seeing the film when it comes out.

Well, I can tell you, if you're a person coming from a Christian background, some of the parts are a challenge to read because, without being profane, I'm very clear about things. And you do that to relate.

Sure. And I appreciate that people are honest about their stories, and that takes a lot of bravery. I had Russ Taff on here a few episodes ago, and Russ Taff went through a whole lot of things with his alcoholism, and he was very open and confessional about some things that I think, now that he was able to confess those things, they actually are being a part of many people's healing because he is very honest about it. And I think until we confess it, that can't be healed. And, and so hopefully your story will continue to be a part of healing for many other people who may be in the same situation. So I appreciate your honesty on that. Well, as our time comes to a close here today, and it has been a great joy, Joe, to get to meet you and talk with you a bit today, I was wondering if there's a particular song from the Brainwashed album that is a favorite, or maybe one that that has a lot of meaning to you that you'd like me to play at the closing of our episode?

Well, I would either choose between Peace, Love and Rock and Roll. Rick Lee James is the author. The strings, the girls' voices, the whole nine yards. Mike was probably the best pure songwriter in the group. And the only other one I would suggest would be maybe Ode to Glenn Schwartz and then November., and we're planning a tribute to him in March in Cleveland to his youth. Either one of those, whichever one you think would be most beneficial for your listeners.

Fantastic. It would be my pleasure to play it today. Well, Joe, thank you so much for being a guest on Voices in My Head this week. I look forward to hearing more and more about your story, and I look forward to the reissue of the All Saved Freak Band's album on vinyl through Old Bear Reissued. Brainwashed is going to be a great thing for vinyl collectors, and I think it's going to be a real benefit to many people's hearts as well. And so thank you for taking time and for being one of the voices in my head this week.

How many times have I told you, what are you going back there for? How many times has he showed you it's quite in vain? If the big bad world only knew what it was in store for. Don't let it drown you down with all its pain. Wake up, Come on to Jesus, do it with all your heart, make a new start. Didn't have nothing to offer but mass confusion. Everybody singing the blues and looking back. Peace, love, and rock and roll were just an illusion. And if you didn't pay your dues, you wound up on the bottom of the stack. Wake up, come over to Jesus, do it with all your heart, and make a new start. On the bottom of the stack. Wake up and come on to Jesus. Do it with all your heart. Say wake up and come on to Jesus. Do it with all your heart and make a new start. Ah, hey now. Better look to Jesus. Wake up to Jesus! Wake up to Jesus! Awake unto Jesus!

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, follow my blog, and even schedule me for a concert or a speaking engagement. Better yet, even a book signing in your neighborhood. You can find all that and more at rickleejames.com. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, the more visible this podcast will be online. And now for the benediction: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. God bless you, and thank you for listening to Voices in My Head.