Voices In My Head Podcast Episode 330: Ben DeLong - There's A God In My Closet

This episode of Voices in My Head is brought to you by Podbean. With Podbean, you can create professional podcasts in minutes without any programming knowledge. Best of all, everything is mobile ready right from the start. Visit podbean.com/voices to find out more. That's podbean.com/voices. This is Rick Lee James, and the music you are hearing is from my new album, Thunder. The title track, Thunder, is a never-before never-before-released song by the late Rich Mullins. There are also 12 other tracks made up of original music, hymns, and readings to guide the listener on a journey. You can buy Thunder today on clear vinyl and CD, or stream it on Spotify, Apple Music, and almost every other music streaming service. Thunder, hear it today at rickleejames.com. Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, a songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more with friends, colleagues, and sometimes just by myself. Now make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes or by tweeting at me @RickLeeJames. @RickLeeJames on Twitter. And please join my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. By the way, in case you're interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the voices in my head. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of Voices in My Head. Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I'm your host, Rick Lee James, and I am so glad that you are here with us today. Many have been taught to see God as a terrifying agent of wrath who spews anger at any sign of imperfection. At the same time, they've been taught that they are inherently flawed and devoid of goodness. So, where does that leave us? For Ben DeLong, it left him hiding his skeletons from the monster he believed God to be. This proved to be a perfect recipe for anxiety, depression, and insecurity. But what if God accepts our skeletons? What if he actually embraces them in love? How would that change our outlook? For author Ben DeLong, it changed everything. This book is about his journey to find what was always true. We are eternally embraced by God, skeletons and all, and he is never letting go. Ben DeLong, welcome to Voices in My Head.

Yeah, thanks, Rick Lee James. Thanks so much for having me.

Well, I am truly glad to have you as a guest today. I have been enjoying your book, There Is a God in My Closet: Encountering the Love Who Embraces Our Skeletons. It came out just in July of this year, and I I really think a lot of people are going to find it to be very refreshing, especially in the ways that we talk about who God is. Before we get into the book itself, just tell us a little bit about who you are.

Um, well, I, uh, I was born and raised in Iowa, and my dad was a pastor out there. So I lived there all my childhood through high school, um, and then I ended up going to Mid-America Nazarene University for college. And got a Bachelor's of Ministry in there, and then after that I went to Nazarene Theological Seminary and got a Master's in Intercultural Studies there, but I met my wife Irene during undergrad, and we got married after our junior year, and we've been married for 14 years now. Congratulations. Yeah, thank you, and we're also closing in on adopting our first child.

Wonderful.

Yeah, we're very, very excited about that. That's fantastic. Thanks, and now we live in Ukiah, California. We've been out here for about 7 years. I pastored a church for about 4 years, and then we had to close that down, and kind of in between ministry posts right now, but for the time being I've been working as an IT professional at the school district out here for About 6 years.

Well, good for you. Well, I'm looking forward to getting to know you a little more as we talk about your book. And once again, we— I mentioned it at the beginning of the show, but your new book is called There's a God in My Closet: Encountering the Love Who Embraces Our Skeletons. So let's just dive in a little bit and talk about this. The God in my closet metaphor, what does that mean and where does that come from?

Um, well, it It kind of describes my whole spiritual journey in a nutshell of at one time developing this image of God in my head as a monster because I saw God as someone who was hateful and vengeful. And of course, you know, that was mixed with images of love and mercy, but that two that two-faced nature, um, kind of created this monster inside of me. And so I, um, I hid everything that I was ashamed of from God. And of course, God sees everything, but I wasn't going to deal with it with him, and so I just kind of held it in. Um, well, I, I started seeing a spiritual director about 3 years ago, and he really challenged me that, um, those things that we're ashamed of— our sin and our scars and our brokenness— that we really need to look at those. And I kind of learned that, you know, we push our sin away because God can't look at our sin. And he really challenged me, "No, you have to look at it and God's going to be there with you." And so I, you know, went into my closet, as it were, and looked at all the skeletons within me that I didn't want to look at and found that, yes, God was there, but He was so compassionate and loving, and all the lies and the scars that I thought were gonna kill me, I mean, I thought they were gonna kill me, were the things that God used for redemption in me. And that's really the big thing is that salvation and redemption that comes through our brokenness, which is, of course, has such a rich heritage in the Christian tradition as a whole. But a lot of times in evangelical circles, that gets lost a little bit.

Well, you know, I want to talk to you about that because some of the things that you were facing with, I guess, these false images of God that so many of us have, it had an impact on your faith through anxiety and depression and trauma. And one thing that I thought might be interesting to talk about with this, do you personally feel like anxiety and depression and trauma has an impact upon our faith more, or do you feel like it's maybe the other way around, that our faith can often be a source of our anxiety and depression and trauma? I'm just kind of curious as to what you think. Does one feed the other, or can they?

Yeah, I definitely think it goes both ways. I think that if someone is dealing with anxiety and depression and has had trauma in their life, and they, um, the faith that they're taught, um, the foundation of that faith is a God who is angry and retributive. And on top of that, perhaps their faith is also telling them that they're no good, that they're depraved, or however you want to say it. I definitely think that can make that anxiety and depression worse, but I also think— I know in my case that it can also cause that stuff. And I, I just think of, I mean, imagine if a child was, was living in a family where one or both of the parents, you know, told them repeatedly, you're no good, you know, you're worthless, I can't stand looking at you. And on top of that, their parents were angry and, and two-faced and unpredictable. I mean, you would be shocked if that child grew up to be well-adjusted. Yeah, you, you would more expect them to deal with anxiety and depression and have dysfunctional behaviors as a result of that environment.

Yeah, that's true. And I'm always interested by this because I feel like good faith or good religion even— I consider myself— I kind of get tired of the phrase that people throw around, you know, I'm spiritual, I'm not religious. I always want to say, but no, I am religious. I mean, I'm a Christian, and so that's a part of the religion. And I feel like faith that, that is healthy and faith that is good can actually be a type of faith that helps anxiety and depression and trauma to be dealt with in, in very healthy ways. And as you just said though, so often religion and faith can actually be misused in a way that it does add to the anxiety, which, which is really probably a sign for us that Maybe our religion has taken on unhealthy patterns. I think it's very interesting because a lot of different denominations will approach different views of God, which I do think are causing those anxieties. You already mentioned it today. If a child had felt like, because their parents were constantly telling them that they were angry at them or they hated them. How maladjusted they would be. Well, that is the theology that many forms of denominations often seem to be spouting. It's almost like, "God hated me so much, but then Jesus hid my sin, and now God can love me again." Right. Which is a really difficult and, I think, unhealthy way of looking at God. So I appreciate how in your book you are talking about sort of confronting the diagnosis of your own journey of dealing with these anxieties and traumas. And the way that you are on the journey of healing with these things. So I appreciate you being open to write about these. You are very honest in your book, and everything from, from struggles with your marriage and pornography and different things that are hard to talk about sometimes, you have been so transparent and so honest to be able to, to talk about in a way that I think will help other people maybe be able to be a little more honest and talk about as well so that healing can begin to come. Well, I've talked enough and I need to get back to you, but all this that you have said has sparked some good things in my mind for us to think about, I think. Let's talk about a bit of your journey. What were some keys to you in sort of unlocking after your diagnosis, of unlocking this healing from anxiety and depression?

Um, well, I definitely think, um, there's a, a quote from, um, Julian of Norwich that I, I have in the book, um, and I can't remember exactly how it goes, but basically it says that first comes our fall and then comes the recovery from the fall, and, and both of those are the mercy of God. And, and so I definitely, I think that's why I'm so open to talking about my struggles, because it's definitely part of the journey. And so my, I think as much as I, you know, don't like, I guess, that pornography is part of my journey, like, I, it was also something that opened up to me. You know, how much I was suffering inside. Um, and so, um, you know, as, as I grew up and came— got into high school, went to college, I just had this, um, intense brokenness. And, um, and of course, you know, I didn't realize all that at the time, but I just had this hope and this idea if I could just find a girl that loved me, then I was just convinced that that was gonna fix me. And so I, um, you know, had some girlfriends in high school and those didn't work out. And so it kind of, you know, fed into that, um, brokenness. But then I, I went to college and I met my wife and, and we got married. And, you know, again, I, I didn't know any of this was going on inside of me, but, you know, inside it's like, well, I finally found this, you know, beautiful and wonderful woman that loves me so I should be fixed now. And, um, and of course that's not how it works because only God can do that. And, and so, um, but again, I didn't realize that was going on. And so I, after a few years of marriage, I got caught up in pornography. And, and, um, I realized later that the reason for that was because of my brokenness. And, and it was, it was a way to feel like I was getting some intimacy without actually having to risk rejection, which is, you know, the reason a lot of men get into that. And so I just felt so worthless. I mean, I, you know, I tried to be the good religious kid, and I felt like crap when I did that, and now I'm failing, and I still feel like crap. And so I kind of don't know what to do. But, um, around that time, my sisters had gone to the Spiritual Formation Seminario. Breakthrough in the Kansas City area and are really hounding me on it. And they were just talking about how good it was for them and how they thought I needed to do it. And it sounded expensive and uncomfortable, and, and I didn't want to do it. But after a while, I was like, man, I got to do something because this, you know, this just isn't working. And so I, I went, and I was surprised that my wife wanted to go too, but, you know, she wanted to do it together. And so I went there and it's that seminar, it's very confrontational, like in a very loving and compassionate way, but it wants you to see like this is what's really going on inside you. And they just showed me how I was letting others control my life because it was easy and because I just had no self-confidence at all. And I ended up seeing that and it made me mad and it should have made me mad. You know, I mean, it, it, that's a crappy place to live. And so I, they put us through this exercise where I could kind of break through that and, and that was a wonderful experience. But as, as I've, I've recognized this pattern that when you get to this amazing realization, then comes the hard work of actually trying to live in that. And, and so the next, um, so the next couple years, um, our marriage was just really deteriorating because we, you know, we had these wonderful realizations where we weren't really getting to the root cause. And, and so we, um, we got to this really bad place in our marriage, and we had both hurt each other, and we weren't We were talking, but we couldn't hear each other because we're both talking out of our wounds. And, um, and so we finally went to marriage counseling and, um, we're sitting with a counselor on the loveseat and, and that, that's when she explains to me of, of why men go into pornography and that it's because they're broken and they're looking for something. And so she's talking to us and I'm, I'm fully expecting, you know, she's going to give us strategies for communicating. She's going to give us tips for a better marriage. But instead she looks at me and she's like, "Ben, you have got to know how much God loves you." Hmm. And I was like, "What?" I didn't see that coming. But it was true. Like, I didn't— I didn't know that. And I didn't even know it was possible because in my soul, God was just a very angry person. And so I learned through that. That, you know, I had this anxiety and depression, kind of diagnosed me with that during that time. And so, you know, really worked on developing and discovering different ways of understanding the gospel. Through that, I later ended up seeing the spiritual director that I talked about and just helped me form a healthier way of understanding the gospel, of understanding God and who I am, that that was very faithful to the Christian tradition, um, and, and honestly more faithful than what I had been given. Um, and, and so I, you know, all that long story to say, like, I definitely echo what you said, like, good religion can be so healing. Um, and I mean, that, that's why I'm still a Christian. That's why I'm still involved in church. Like, I, my My biggest scars have directly or indirectly come from church life, um, but my most healing moments have come from really experiencing Christ.

Well, Ben, thank you for sharing that. I, I know that's not easy to be able to share about those things, and I, like probably most men, have had battles with that in my own life. And so it's a hard thing to be able to share about, and yet you've talked about it in such a humble way today, and it's so good to hear stories of healing. It's so good to hear that you have held on to your faith and to your Christianity in the midst of this and have come through with a much healthier understanding of who God is and that you have a much healthier way of even approaching religion, and I so appreciate that. So before we go any further, I just wanted to tell you how proud I am of you for being able to tell your story. And I just really appreciate it just on a personal level. So thank you for having the bravery and the courage to be able to tell us that part of your story to, you know, the thousands of people who might be listening.

Thank you. You're welcome.

And that is a huge thing. So thank you. Thank you so much for doing that.

Sure.

But I can hear in your— I can hear in the tenor of your voice that you really truly do believe in a God who embraces us and who loves us. And I can tell that there's been healing there in your life, and I'm so glad to hear that. And I want people to read the book and dive in more deeply into your story. And as they do that, they're gonna find some common themes that you write about. And one thing that you have made a point about is that there seems to be a lack of emphasis on an understanding on, on the Incarnation in the Evangelical Church. And I wonder if you could talk to us a bit about why there seems to be that lack of emphasis and understanding on the Incarnation and what some of the consequences are to that.

Yeah, sure. Um, and I, you know, I, I think you could argue that this is one of the— this might be the biggest theological weakness in a lot of evangelical theology. Um, yeah, so I think the reason there's a misunderstanding is when, when, um, I hear a lot of evangelicals— not all of them, but a lot of them— talk about the incarnation, you know, and celebrate at Christmastime, they talk about, well, Jesus became human, but what they really, what they really mean is that Jesus became a human being so that he could represent us when he died for our punishment on the cross. And so, um, because that common gospel is, well, God needed to punish someone and Jesus had to represent us— Jesus doesn't have to be connected to us, he just has to represent us. Um, but the The real power of the Incarnation, which I think is just gets so beautifully emphasized, and especially in Eastern Orthodox theology, is that Jesus didn't just become a human being, he became human, period. And he connected with all humanity. And so that what he did on the cross and through the resurrection and ascension, he didn't just do for us, which of course he did for us, but he also did it to us and as us. Um, and so one, one thing that that does is that it, it reminds us that salvation and redemption is first of all God's idea. And, and sometimes we get mixed up with that because we, we emphasize, you know, your conversion point, or when you say the sinner's prayer, or, or one of those things. And, and those are great, but if your understanding is Well, salvation happened when I did that. Well, that puts a lot of pressure on yourself that God never intended to be on you, because, you know, what about the days when you just don't have that faith? I mean, what, you know, what happens then? And so I love— there's this quote from Karl Barth, and the way one of my professors paraphrased it was someone asked him you know, when were you saved? Kind of in that mindset of their conversion or sinner's prayer moment. And he said, well, I was saved 2,000 years ago, just like everybody else. And so there's just that emphasis that God did it, and he wrapped us into himself. And so the point of Christian faith is not, you know, forgiveness is great, but forgiveness is more a means to the end. And it's, it's a means to that relationship and that restoration. And so our part as Christians is not to believe that God did something for us, it's to participate in what he's doing as us and to us. And so the, the, um, the journey that Jesus took, um, that pattern of death and resurrection It's not just saying, well, I believe God died for my sins, and I believe, you know, that 2,000 years ago he raised again. It's saying, I believe that Christ has connected me with the divine, and I can experience that pattern. And so when there's something in me that is bringing death and dysfunction, that I can journey to the depths with Christ and experience that death, and I can rise again to new life. And that's— and I can experience that right now. And I feel like, I feel like we lose that if we don't get the Incarnation right. If, if we think that, that Jesus just represented us, and we kind of lose that.

Yeah, no, that's very good. And that's, that's a great place for us to, to dive into a few other topics today that you write about. And, uh, and I'm going to name off these three, and, and we can talk about them as briefly or as much as we want to today. But you talk about too how, um, things create monsters, uh, so often. And one thing that often creates monsters are these three things that we're going to talk about in these next few moments together. One is our understanding of scripture, or maybe I should say our misunderstanding of scripture. Yeah, creates— often creates a monster. Our understanding of the cross often creates a monster. And I have a couple things I want to talk about on that one as well with you.

Sure.

And then how our understanding of hell often creates a monster. And there's, there's so much more that, that we could get into, but we'll try to limit it to this just for the sake of our conversation today. Talk to us a little bit about how our understanding of scripture often creates a monster.

Yeah, um, well, and I think maybe this sort of goes back to the Incarnation as well, um, you know, because we, when we talk about the Word of God, sometimes we don't realize that that's Christ. Like, Christ is the Word of God. And of course the Bible is there to help us, and, and I believe it is inspired, but, but what does that really mean? And, and most of the times when I've heard Christians talk about the Bible is inspired, um, what they mean is that, well, everything— I mean, at minimum, they mean everything, um, in the Bible that portrays God's character is equally valid. Um, and, and that's, um, that can be really problematic when you're trying to follow Jesus, you know, who said, "Love your enemies, and in doing so you will be like your Father in heaven," um, who cried out for forgiveness of his executioners as he's dying on the cross. And then you also see portraits of God where he's commanding genocide, and he's, um, he's killing someone because they inadvertently broke the rules, um, He's killing an innocent baby because of his father's sin. I mean, all— if we, if we make these all equally authoritative, we have really big problems. Um, and God, I mean, at minimum, he's two-faced. And, you know, but more likely, I mean, what would we think of, you know, world leaders if they did those kind of things? Yeah. Um, And so we— if we make that the point of scripture, if we turn it into this sort of instruction manual, that we have a God who, um, can go on violent rampages, who, um, endorses, um, uh, the, the sacrificial system— that, that was not just with the Hebrews. I mean, that, that started— that was going on all through the ancient civilizations. And then we can endorse this— there's a development in scripture about where does evil come from, and there are portions of scripture where they, they have it coming from God because that's, that's what they thought back then. And, and there's this development of, of thought where they realize, oh wait, God, God's good, he can't do that. But if we approach it as this instruction manual sort of way, um, it really, it really creates a problem for how we understand God. I mean, we, we don't really know what God we're dealing with at that point.

Well, I really like that in your book you emphasize that it is important for us to read each book of the Bible according to its genre, and the different genres are written in different ways by different authors in different times, and they're even even places in scripture. I often talk about this with my friend who's a rabbi here at our local Jewish temple, and I love talking to him about specifically the Old Testament scriptures. Although he is, even though he's not a Christian, he's very well versed in New Testament as well. And I often will ask him, I said, don't you think that it's true that the Bible is often sort of having an argument with itself? And, and he says, oh yes, it has very, very much a Jewish way of approaching scripture in that. Yeah, not that we see it like a, a, uh, a science book or some sort of textbook, but we almost look at it as though we are wrestling through faith together, like, like Jacob, uh, and, and Esau and, and Isaac and then, you know, the, the different, uh, people through scripture. And, and with Jacob, the literal wrestling of God, you know. Yeah, yeah, in scripture of we're trying to work out how the world works and what God is doing in it. And I think sometimes, especially in, in the evangelical tradition, we're just not good about approaching scripture in a way that is healthy or even maybe accurate to the ways that it was written in the first place. So I appreciate the emphasis that you make in the book about helping us have that understanding. And I also really love the emphasis upon— if we're going to talk about the Word of God, yes, Jesus is the Word, capital W. Yeah. And that when we approach scripture, it should be prayerfully. And, and I think it's entirely important and appropriate that when we are praying, that we make prayer a part of our scripture reading process, and that we actually ask Jesus to help us, to help us interpret these words that we are reading together with him.

Yeah, yeah.

And, and, you know, I love that you got— you had Brad Jurczak write the foreword of your book. And one thing that Brad is really good about is is sort of this idea of being able to— that we are actually very good at listening to the voice of God, but we don't know that we're that good at it.

Yeah, yeah.

And that Jesus is wanting to have these conversations with us, but so often it's just, "Our Father who art in heaven, amen," and we hang up before we've given God the opportunity to talk. And he particularly is one that really advocates for for doing theology on our knees, that when we come to these difficult passages, especially, that we struggle through them in a mode of prayer, even asking God, what are you showing us through these passages? And I get a lot of that from the way that you're helping us too, in understanding scripture and sort of slaying these monsters that are so often created by that. So I really appreciate that. Let's talk a little bit about the cross and how that often creates a monster. And I'd love to pick pick your brain on this too, because I have been noticing as someone who writes music and publishes music and leads music Sunday after Sunday, week after week, I have been noticing in the songs that are popular— one of them even came back with our teens a couple weeks ago who went to the Nazarene Youth Conference, and it was sort of the big theme song of the week— there's a lot of emphasis on the cross And I have noticed lately in, in lyrics of songs that are written, even in modern hymns, there's almost an idolatry of the cross. And I'll tell you what I mean by that, and I'd love to get your thoughts about this. Um, there's a way that you talk about of the cross creating a monster, but then there's also a deification of the cross. And so he said, I am finding throughout some of the modern songwriting, whether it be a line like, we have been saved by the power of the cross, or something like that.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, or, or there'll be a line, um, I was just thinking of it the other day, uh, there is, there is a line in a very popular worship song right now that says, the cross has overcome, Jesus is alive. And I, and I thought, okay, take the music away and stop and think about that line you just said. You just said the cross overcame Jesus is alive, and both can't be true. Like, right? Yeah, there's a sense in which we are making the cross into something it was never intended to be, because we wouldn't say the electric chair has overcome, or the injection has overcome, or the hangman's noose has overcome, and because of that Jesus is alive. No, our emphasis is that, no, Jesus overcame the powers of death and the cross. And, and I just find it very interesting that there's almost a deification of the cross going on. But anyway, I'd like to hear maybe your response on that, but also let you have a chance to talk about the way that the cross often creates monsters as well.

Yeah, um, that's interesting because I think— yeah, I think a lot with music, um, and with lyrics, we, we kind of let stuff go because it sounds good.

Yeah, right.

And And I'm sure whoever wrote those, they may have intended a whole different meaning. But yeah, I mean, you know, Jesus conquered the cross. I mean, the cross represented death, and that's what Jesus conquered. And I, you know, like I said, they probably meant something completely different. But yeah, I think sometimes too, if we— how we position, how we talk about the cross, if it becomes this thing, well, we believe Jesus did this, then we sometimes lose, well, we get to participate in that too. Yeah. So I think maybe that might be a little bit of a danger there too. Um, but yeah, I think, um, like you were talking about, I think that the cross, how we understand it, can create that monster image of God. And I, um, you mentioned Brad Jersak. Um, I was just so, just so grateful that he was willing to write the foreword. And he, um, I heard him talk once, he was talking about how he used to really believe in that view of the cross where, um, God needed punishment and Jesus, you know, you know, Jesus was that punishment for us and that that sacrifice for us. And, and he was talking to a friend of his that was an Eastern Orthodox priest, and, um, and the priest like didn't understand it at all. He was, he was like, that— he's like, that's not God, that's Molech. And, um, that, that, that's a god who requires child sacrifice. That's, that's not the Father of Jesus. Um, And, but that, that's how we often portray the cross and, and the purpose of the cross. And, and when we do that, we make God into being very retributive, um, very violent, and honestly not very forgiving. Um, because if you need, if you, if you, you know, if I tell someone, you know, um, man, you really hurt my feelings, I'm gonna forgive you, but I'm gonna beat you up a little bit. Like, that doesn't equate to forgiveness. Um, and, and we see, like, throughout scripture, God's, God's always forgiving, um, without requiring anything. He's just a forgiving God. Um, and so he doesn't— you know, the, the forgiveness on the cross, what Jesus does on the cross, are linked, but it's, um, it's not because God needed somebody to die to forgive. It's— Jesus went to the cross because God forgives. And as I said in 2 Corinthians, God has reconciled the world through Christ, not holding our sins against us. Um, so the— God always forgives, and it's— that's just his nature. Um, but when we think of the cross that way, I mean, if, if God is someone who needs to, to pummel someone to forgive me, I don't feel very comfortable around that God. And you can tell me till you're blue in the face, well, Jesus did it, so you don't need— he doesn't need you to be pummeled. That still doesn't make me feel comfortable. I mean, that— when I was in elementary school, I warmed up to a bully because I didn't want to get beat up. That doesn't mean I liked the guy. That just means I didn't want to get beat up. And so when we portray God that way, I mean, he just, he doesn't come out looking good or anything like what Jesus says he is.

Right. Yeah, and when we see Jesus, we do believe in Christianity that we see the image of who God is and what God looks like. And I think often that means looking, peering into the face of Jesus and the life of Jesus, we see so many things about him that we got wrong, even in Scripture. And we have to go back to Scripture, as we talked about before, and look at it again through the lens of Jesus and ask, Lord, what would you have us see, you know, from these passages? And, and so I appreciate your emphasis on that because I too have struggled. I think we all have, just because of that theology that says God had to have a sacrifice because he was so angry. He was, he was this wrathful, almost like a wrathful child himself that just had to be appeased.

Yeah, yeah.

And what, and what Jesus shows us is such a different picture of who God is, a God who loves us enough to lay down his life. I, I don't have any time in my life anymore for, for a false god. Yeah, that, that I you know, that at one time I thought, well, God loves you so much that he beat his son to a pulp and killed him, um, so that he could somehow have relationship. He was so angry at you that he tied his son up and beat him half to death, and now he feels better.

Yeah.

Or beat him to death completely. If we said that about any human being, um, like, I can imagine— I can't imagine, as the father of a 6-year-old son, and, and boys, they, they are, uh, rambunctious at times.

Yeah, for sure.

But if But if my neighbor did something offensive to me that, you know, caused a rift in our relationship, I can't imagine that I would say, "I am so mad at my neighbor. I'm going to just take my son out back and torture him and kill him. And now I can go have a good relationship with my neighbor." You know, it's sort of like, that doesn't make any sense. And I love, you know, the Orthodox Church doesn't have any concept of that.

No, they don't.

Oldest branch of Christianity that we have, back to the very beginning, the early church would have no concept of that. It's a very new development in the last several hundred years. So I love looking more at the cross as a healing moment and showing us a totally different picture of God. You've brought that out in your writings and in your book. I realize that now, by the way, side note, we've gone a little bit over our half hour that I originally talked about. With you. Are you still okay going a bit longer?

Yeah, I'm good. I'm good.

Okay, okay, great. Well, we'll continue, and there's a lot more we could say about the cross.

Sure.

Our understanding and our misunderstanding of it. You write about it very eloquently in the book, and so I want people to write more. But there's a lot that we could benefit from, from a new understanding of the cross. And— but maybe I should say, rather than a new understanding, a more ancient understanding would be a better—

yeah, exactly.

Because the new understanding has really messed up our theology created monsters, as you've said.

Yeah.

And, and going right along with that, because usually what is said is, you know, the cross is there so that you could, you could miss hell, you know, basically, so that you wouldn't have to go to hell. Let's talk a bit about how our understanding, or maybe even our misunderstanding, of hell also creates a monster. And it almost makes this, this trinity of monsters caused by a misuse of Scripture and the cross and hell to together. But, but talk to us a little bit about that and the understanding of hell and how it creates a monster.

Yeah, I think this was, this was the thing that initially started, um, unraveling things for me. Um, and when, when you think about the gospel that is often told, um, and in combination with our concept of hell You know, this is sort of a caricature of that, but it basically comes out that, you know, God loves you so much and he wants to rescue you. So he just wants you to accept his love. But if you don't, he's going to torture you forever. And, and I remember this movie. I can't remember when it was made, but it has Julia Roberts and it's called Sleeping with the Enemy. And, and she's married to this abusive husband who basically has the same posture, like, you will love me or I will hurt you. And that, you know, I mean, that's, uh, that's what God ends up being, um, in that picture. And it just doesn't, you know, how do you, how do you warm up to a God like that? I mean, we're, we're supposed to be able to, um, come to him in our weaknesses and when we mess up and when we're feeling shame and fear. I mean, how do you do that when, um, when God basically embodies your nightmares? Um, it just, it just doesn't work that way. And, and so we're— we end up having to wonder, like, which God is the real one? Because, um, you know, he, he's saying I love you and I accept you and I want you to accept my salvation. But then he's also saying, but after you die, too bad, you know, like if you didn't choose me before life, well, before the end of life, then your decision's up. And it makes God, it's like, which God is the real one? Like apparently he takes off this really nice face after death and then shows us what he's really like. And that, that just doesn't make any sense to me. And it, and it, um, it totally undermines what the church has proclaimed, you know, for 2,000 years about Jesus conquering death. Um, if death has really been conquered through Jesus' death and resurrection, why does it have any power over our ability to choose Christ? And it just doesn't make any sense. And so if God is that, if that's how we portray hell, as God inflicting punishment on us because we didn't accept his love, he, you know, he ends up looking like that abusive husband. And you can't— you can't— how do you experience love and joy and peace in that kind of environment? I mean, I tried, and when I didn't, I always felt like there was something wrong with me. But then I realized that that's not what the gospel is. That's not what it was in the beginning.

Yeah. Well, you say in your book too, I'm just going to read it straight out of There's a God in My Closet. It says, apparently God holds some pretty impressive grudges, and unless you explicitly ask for forgiveness for all the ways you have sinned, God will continue to hold that grudge for all eternity. I know people who can hold some pretty stubborn grudges, but this is on a whole other level. And, and, and that's, that's true. That's often what we say about God. Let me ask you your thoughts about hell. We're obviously not going to get into all this in the few minutes that we have left here, and we're not going to solve hell for everybody, right, on this. But I've come to an understanding more as, as I've approached scripture, and I just, I think more as I've come to know God more and as he's revealed more of himself through his word and through times of prayer and with times of worship, I think I'm starting to see hell more and more as an absence of God and a place where love does not exist and a place where there is true loneliness and a place of brokenness and a place of hurt. And I think it's interesting that that so often we only think about hell in terms of afterlife. And in fact, in all my travels over the years doing music at revivals or whatnot, I actually was at a revival one time where the emphasis of the entire week was what happens after we die. And one complete message was about hell, and there was barely any mention of God or Jesus in it at all. Yes, they forgot to mention the good news, you know, in the midst of it. And it was sort of like, huh, that's That's interesting. So I've personally come to see Hell quite differently, as a place of such barrenness and such aloneness away from God. I think it's interesting that so often we make it as a place that God uses because he hates people's sins so much that he sends them there. And I have come more to understanding whatever hell is, it's not something that God has in mind for us. It's something— it's a place we find ourselves when we don't want anything to do with God. And it's relational. I see people on earth that I look at and I think, man, they are in such a bad place. And we will literally call it hell on earth sometimes, don't we? Oh yeah. We talk about this. People. And I know there's more to it than that, and, and I'm not, I'm not saying I don't believe in a hell, but my understanding of hell has changed over the years. And, um, I just wonder kind of where, where you fall in line with that as well.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's, um, I think that's about as good a way as you could put it, that it's just the absence of, of the goodness of God. My spiritual director The way he put it, and he puts things so eloquently, um, he said hell is not a linear reality, it's a relational reality. So it's not about, you know, now or then or something that happens at some point. It's, um, the dynamic of our relationship with God. And so we can— if we don't have that relationship and we're not experiencing that love, we can experience that hell now, um, and then we can experience it later as well. But like you said, it's not something that God desires us. And, and I've, I've come to believe, um, and I, I just feel like this is the only way I can be faithful to, to my understanding of God, is that his mercy and his love, it never ends. And so there's, there's no point— in my understanding, there's no point in this life or the next where God stops wanting salvation for us. I mean, if, if that's true, then how do we know what kind of God we're dealing with? I mean, we, we say he's the same yesterday and today and forever. I mean, that's true or it's not. And if he's, if he's love and if his mercy never ends, I mean, that, that has to be true for all eternity.

Yeah, well, and, and it also surprises people at times, I think, when they find out that there's not just one view of what hell is in the Bible. And sometimes, right, actually sometimes it is actually literally referencing a place on earth. Going back to a conversation with my rabbi friend, was talking about the— I believe I forgot the word all of a sudden. Is it Gehenna that's used in the New Testament when Jesus talks about the burning trash pile? I can't think.

Yeah, yeah, it's Gehenna.

Gehenna, right. I don't know why my mind went blank for a second, but we were talking about that one day. He said, I've been there, it's lovely. And he brought me He brought me a picture of it from his trip and he said, "No, no, this is the literal place Jesus was talking about when he was describing it. At the time it was sort of the burning garbage heap, but now it's got flowers and it's beautiful. It's been beautified, the whole area." And so he was like, "Sending you my picture from hell, you know, where I was." Well, and there's, you know, he's—

I'm sure there's, you know, a little bit of a joke there, but there's a lot of profound truth to what he's saying there. And there's There's a lot that I get into my book about how some depth behind that that people can get into, but they— I would also recommend, which I— a book that helped me a lot by Brad Jersak once again is Her Gates Will Never Be Shut. That's a really helpful book.

Yes, excellent book. Yeah, I agree with you. Well, that's great. Well, You know what, we're almost out of time, but there's one more talking point that I want to try to get in if you're good with it. Yeah, just finding a new starting point, because a lot of what you are talking about in the book, this is going to be a lot for people to take in at once. But a new starting point being that we are created good. And you know, it's interesting because just last night we've been using a Bible story app on our phones and iPads and stuff here at the house. And it's sort of a little animated Bible story app, and it starts right at the beginning. And last night my son wanted to hear about how God created the earth again, and I thought, okay, let's go to that story, you know. And so I went in there, and I found it very interesting that just last night this Bible app very much emphasized amazed that God said it was good. Yeah, created it good. And, and it was, it was in a way that I don't always hear in popular applications or popular things, but it literally does say in scripture that God saw it, God created it, and it was good. So yeah, talk to us a little bit, if you would, about maybe finding this new starting point and why you feel that's so important.

Yeah, um Man, it's, it's so important. I, I mean, I think, um, I think, um, discovering who God really is and then discovering who you really are are so important, and, and they're linked. They're not separate things. Um, I, I think it was Thomas Merton said something along the lines of, when you find God, you'll find yourself, and when you find yourself, you'll find God. Because we were created in his image. And that starts, you know, starts from the very beginning. And yeah, I just, I think it's so important. It just, I know for me, you know, I just believed I was bad for so long. And then I— therapy is so important in this too, of just kind of exploring some of your past hurts and pains and, and realizing, um, this is something that I've learned that, that children do, is that when they're— when their parents act, um, not even necessarily bad, but when their parents act not perfect, you know, when they're just human and they, they act out of stress or frustration, um, children, when they're young, their world makes sense if their parents are perfect. And, and when their parents don't act perfect, then what the children do is they say, well, then I, I'm the problem, because then that makes my, my world still makes sense because my parents are still perfect. So I'm the problem. And so I realized through therapy and through people helping me that that's what I did. And so to realize that what, what, what we call original sin or depravity of us being bad the core of that in my being was a lie that I believed as a kid. Um, it's, it's like waking up from a bad dream. Um, and, and that's not, that's not the starting point in scripture. Um, we're created good. I mean, that's— and it takes healing and it takes, um you know, a journey, um, with Christ through death and resurrection to die to our defense mechanisms that we've built up and, and all those things. I mean, it takes that journey, but we can get to a place where we know that we are good and, and can be secure and, and our identity in Christ. And then out of that, we can actually love people Um, because so often what we, what we call love, you know, we, we're doing our best, but we're doing it out of our dysfunctions and out of our insecurity. And so what we call love often ends up being manipulation and, and codependency, and, and it's not, it's not, um, as concerned about the other person as we would like to think. Um, but when we get to this place where we know we are good and we, we not— we're not dependent on other people healing us because we— and they're part of the journey, but we get to this place where we know that we are good because God has made us good. Um, then that codependency can, can stop, and, and we can love people from a secure place. And we can— if someone, um, you know, if, if my wife is short with me one day I can stop taking it so personally and realize, oh, she's just— she's having a bad day. And instead of me taking it personally and then getting frustrated, which is not loving, I can say, oh man, she's just having a bad day. What can I do to help her? And she does that all the time for me. And it's— and that's what this— you know, that's what it's all about in the end. I mean, it gets us to that place where we can love like God loves us.

Yeah, well, and I want to point listeners to— if we're talking about— because this might be a lot for a lot of people to take, because some theological strains of even our listeners would say that, you know, we are completely depraved and that we, you know, basically what God does on the cross is almost like he covers us with a white snow so God can't see how bad we are anymore. Right. Yeah, and it's interesting because not only just, um, as I've studied more again, like the Orthodox Church, but even going further back to Judaism— and once again, sorry, this is the third time I've referenced my local rabbi—

that's all right—

about— we've talked about this, and we've even talked about it on this show. What we call the fall, uh, that what Christians call the fall, or evangelicals especially, um, is what, uh, in Judaism they actually call it the uplift. Lifting, because it's a story for him as a— again, getting back to the way we translate scripture, he doesn't look at it as a science book or a book of history in the way that we think of history these days. He looks at it as a story of mankind. He said this is what happens to all of us at some point. We find this thing that, that we've made a wrong choice and it causes us harm and we have to leave the place of childhood and move into a place of maturity, which there's more responsibility that's given. Um, he talks about leaving the garden, um, for, you know, you're leaving childhood and you're leaving into a place of maturity where now you have to work and you experience things like tilling the land and childbirth and things like that that you hadn't known as a child. And it creates a completely different starting place and, and, and the fact that, you know, God created us good. And he talks about, um, the rabbi talks about all of us can sin and all of us will sin, but there's also a need for us to ask for forgiveness and return to that. That doesn't mean that we're not good and that we're somehow so depraved that God doesn't love us anymore.

Yeah, yeah.

I found that to be very interesting as we approach that place. It's not that we're— it's not that we're that we are good and we can't ever sin or do anything wrong. It's that we are created good and we have these choices that we can make. And with the power of the Spirit, we are able to overcome. And when we're not, also through the power of the Spirit, we are able to ask forgiveness and be restored and remade. And that's a whole different thing than saying you're, you're worthless garbage until Jesus did something to change you, you know.

Oh yeah. Yeah. And I know through, through my own journey and through my wife's journey, and we've been involved in foster care, like, um, I mean, this, this is a very sweeping statement. I don't want to be too grandiose with it, but it seems like so many, so much depression and anxiety and so many dysfunctional behaviors come from children either being told or just believing somehow in themselves some sort of message of I am not good. Um, and if, if we're, if we're saying, you know, that that's what we— that's part of what we deal with in childhood a lot. But if we're on top of that saying that's how God sees you, that's a big problem for sure.

Well, Ben, uh, that we've, we've gone over our allotted time, and I want to thank you for taking some extra time today to have these conversation. Sure. I, I think that it's important, and I think your new book, There's a God in My Closet: Encountering the Love Who Embraces Our Skeletons, I think it's going to be a help to a lot of people and, and maybe even a great point of discussion. I know we have a lot of different listeners from, from a lot of different denominations, or even people who listen to the show at times that are not a part of any religious community. And so again, I want to remind all you who are listening, um, we— I'd love to hear from you. We'd love to hear your comments and your thoughts. We're not saying that we're definitely right on everything that we have said on this show, or that we are wrong one way or the other, but we're definitely open to the conversation, and we want to find healthier ways of embracing the faith. And so if you could and want to, you always feel free to find me on social media, on Twitter @RickLeeJames. And you can leave a comment there, or you can write me an email, rick@rickleejames.com. And I encourage all of you who are listening to, to check out Ben DeLong's new book, There's a God in My Closet: Encountering the Love Who Embraces Our Skeletons. Ben, it's been great to have you this week, and thank you for being one of the Voices in My Head.

Oh, no problem. I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my my website at RickLeeJames.com, where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, follow my blog, and even schedule me for a concert or a speaking engagement. Better yet, even a book signing in your neighborhood. You can find all that and more at RickLeeJames.com. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, the more visible this podcast will be online. And now for the benediction: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. God bless you, and thank you for listening to Voices in My Head.