Voices In My Head Podcast Episode 328: A Third Way To Talk About Abortion - ProGrace CEO Angie Wesze

This is Rick Lee James, and the music you are hearing is from my new album, Thunder. The title track, Thunder, is a never-before-released song by the late Rich Mullins. There are also 12 other tracks made up of original music, hymns, and readings to guide the listener on a journey. You can buy Thunder today on clear vinyl and CD, or stream it on Spotify, Apple Music, and almost every other music streaming service. Thunder, hear it today at rickleejames.com. This episode of Voices in My Head is brought to you by Podbean. With Podbean, you can create professional podcasts in minutes without any programming knowledge. Best of all, everything is mobile ready right from the start. Visit podbean.com/voices to find out more. That's podbean.com/voices. Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, a songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more with friends, colleagues, and sometimes just by myself. Now, make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes or by tweeting at me @RickLeeJames. RickLeeJames on Twitter. And please join my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. By the way, in case you're interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the voices in my head. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of Voices in My Head.

Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I am your host, Rick Lee James, and I'm very glad that you could be here with us for what is going to be a great conversation today. According to LifeWay Research, 36% of women who get abortions are regular church attenders. Only 7% talk to anyone at their church before making that decision. Increasingly, Christians and churches are becoming silent in the abortion conversation. Many leaders have told us that this is because they wrestle with how to communicate God's heart on this issue. The political dialogue frames the issue in a way that makes us feel we must choose between advocating for either the woman or the child. But when we align with this either/or mentality, it actually limits our positive influence in our culture. Instead, we can start believing God to give us a creative solution based on his wisdom and provision and his love for both the woman and the child. Now, that introduction is taken from the ProGrace website, and my guest today on Voices in My Head is Angie Wesley. Angie is the CEO of ProGrace, a faith-based nonprofit creating a third option in the abortion debate by equipping Christians with a new approach to the issue. Angie, welcome to Voices in My Head.

Thanks, Rick. It's great to be with you today.

Well, I am so glad that it worked out, and what our listeners won't know is I totally whiffed an appointment that I I had with you last week because of a confusion over a time zone. And I just want to thank you again here publicly on the show for moving your very busy schedule around and being with us today.

So let's— I love that you didn't even have to admit that, but that shows you understand grace. So that's awesome.

Oh my goodness. Well, if it wasn't for grace, I would be nowhere. I am sorry. Right?

Same. Yeah.

Well, I am so glad to be able to have this conversation with you today. I'll be honest, I don't remember where I I first read an article about ProGrace, I know it was a Twitter post that I saw from someone very prominent, but when I started reading about the work that ProGrace was doing, I thought I really would love to have someone from there on Voices in My Head, because I just feel like it's such a unique way to talk about a topic that is so volatile in our political environment today, and even in our church conversations sometimes. So as we begin today, I wonder if you could just start by telling us, what is ProGrace?

Well, you know, ProGrace is born out of a journey that I had actually of experiencing tension with the way the political debate frames this issue, right? So we feel we're forced to choose, am I advocating for the rights of the woman or the rights of the child? And everything's really, you know, cut and dry, black and white. And as I started working for a Christian pregnancy organization back in 2005, I quickly realized that it isn't black and white. There's a lot of complexity going on for the women who are facing an unintended pregnancy. There's a reputation that Christians have in the community that often isn't very Christ-like. And my team at this organization, we started asking a couple of questions. And the first one is, you know, why do women really have abortions? That's not even being addressed in the political debate, right? It's just should it be legal or not? Why are— what are they really experiencing? You know, what are they going through? And then the, the other question is, if Jesus were walking the planet today, how would he be interacting, you know, with a woman facing an unintended pregnancy in the community with this issue? And those questions are really what started the journey of what is now ProGrace, which is helping other Christians to ask those same questions and to look at the Gospels and how Jesus interacted with people and Could we have an approach that is not based in a political party, but really has its roots in God's heart and his value for both the woman and the child? And is there a way to do that as Christians that represents the kingdom, not a political party?

Sure. Well, and that's a really important distinction. I think that sometimes even believers don't realize there is a distinction between the governments of the world and the kingdom of God.

Yes.

Yeah.

And I always tell people in my congregation, I said, if you're a follower of Christ, you're really going to have a hard time in either party because you're going to find yourself at odds with both because Jesus is an equal opportunity offender, it seems.

Right.

And people create political parties, you know, so we're not— anything I create isn't going to be perfect either, right? So it's not that I'm particularly slamming political parties, it's just that we have such a resource in the Kingdom of God, you know, when God asks us to to pray, let your kingdom come, let your will be done. And I just think we settle for less if we just settle for man-made solutions. So sure, I agree with you.

Yeah, well, and I, and I really believe just from what I've seen from the website and some of the articles I read, and I really feel like we all could probably agree that there needs to be a shift in the way that we are talking together about these things. And I love that ProGrace is about that. So as we get into this today, let's talk a little bit about some of the core beliefs of ProGrace. And on your website, it has, uh, two primary ones that I, I copied over so we could discuss it today. And, uh, the, the first core belief is this: God's design for pregnancy was to intertwine a man— sorry, a woman and a child. He has made it impossible for us to try to help one while bypassing the other, but instead calls us to work for the dignity and welfare of both of them. I wonder if you could just expand on that a little bit.

Sure. Yeah, so just again, I think this came out of, you know, working with women who were pregnant, being pregnant myself 2 times, and then looking at the dialogue and, and how we really do split off the woman from the child a lot of times when we're talking about this. But when God designed pregnancy, he intertwined them, you know, and your wife has, you know, you've been around pregnant women, I'm sure, Rick, and you know that 9 months is a long time, as I always say. There was great intentionality in creating life that way. And so I just think as Christians, it's our responsibility to sit and ponder that for a while and, and understand that by his design, we have two interconnected people, and anything you do to one impacts the other. And that's why, you know, splitting them apart is never going to bring a solution to this. That if we want a Christlike solution, we have to look at God's design of pregnancy and, and value them both equally. Um, and so in this, we look at even passages that I was taught in church growing up— Psalm 139, you know, the verses about God designing us in our mother's womb. And, um, you know, when I was growing up in church, that was primarily the context that was used was the child is being, you know, crafted in, in its mother's womb, which is 100% true. I think in our journey, the Lord started showing us that he also feels that same way about the woman, you know, that she's equally as valued, as valuable to him. And we can't leave that out of our narrative as Christians. We have to elevate his value for the woman and really wrestle with that theologically if we're going to have an approach to the issue that mirrors what Christ would be doing.

And yeah, good thought. And you know, just even thinking of, um, the transformation that's taking place within the woman, um, even, even beyond the child and things that are going to affect her the rest of the life because of the baby and the way that they've connected in those moments. It's a, it's a really lots to think about in there. And well, in the second core belief goes right along with this, as God's path for transformation for any of us is always grace, not judgment. So we will extend the same grace we have received to any woman facing an unintended pregnancy. And so the question I have for you there: how can we do a better job of extending grace?

Mm-hmm.

Well, you know, my journey, um, really was from one of legalistic Christianity. That's what I was raised in, and I love my early church. They introduced me to Jesus. At the same time, I really didn't hear much about grace. You know, my relationship with him I thought was my responsibility. I had to be a good person. And so learning the true, um, the truth about grace and Jesus' complete sacrifice and how he always extends grace first and changes our identity, you know, he calls us holy and beloved when we haven't done a thing, you know, because of Jesus. And that, that is what actually gives us the power to live a different life. I think before we can extend grace, we have to really say, do we really believe it? Do we really understand it? Um, are we committed to living that lifestyle ourselves? Because that is when we can extend it to other people. Um, and then I think specifically in this issue— and, and there are a couple issues like this in the church— um, unintentionally we have made certain mistakes worse than others. And again, I think for me, I know when I struggled with legalism, it was very convenient to point my finger at other people and at least I'm not doing that, because I was struggling, you know, to try and get God to love me. I think understanding his grace frees us all to recognize we're all the same at the foot of the cross, you know. And all— and we use a lot of Jesus stories in our training, how he leveled the playing field and said, no, no one's gonna— no one's righteous enough to get to God. That's not the point. That's why he's here, you know. It's not that we get to God, it's that God came to us, and it's through Jesus that we're accepted. And so I think just breaking down and taking the time to reflect, how have we approached, uh, someone with an unintended pregnancy in our church? You know, that statistic from LifeWay that you shared is so convicting. Why aren't women coming to their church and saying that they're pregnant? You know, are we creating a culture that says, hey, we can come broken, all of us together, and find grace? Or are we saying, look, there's certain things that aren't acceptable, and, and with our silence kind of driving things underground. So that's my thought, is understanding grace for ourselves and then really letting the Holy Spirit show us, are there places, are there certain groups of people or people struggling with certain sins or mistakes that we have made worse than others? Um, and, and how can we communicate in our churches that we're all the same, we all need grace the same amount?

Sure.— and we can be bad about it. I'm going to say myself as someone who is a recovering legalist too, we have this tendency to, when a person comes and says, "Here's what the problem is," instead of saying, "How can we help you?" we'll say, "Well, this is all the things you did wrong that got you to that place, so clean those up first and then we'll talk." And that's really not a very helpful thing for us to do. And there are tensions revolving around this issue for sure. If there's anything thing that brings tension. It's talking about abortion and pro-life and pro-choice, which I love that ProGrace is trying to help us through some of those things. And on your website, you actually talk about some of these tensions. And so let's talk about some of them right now and some of the ways that we can help relieve some of those tensions as we talk about them in our congregations. And tension number one that ProGrace mentions, it says whenever we talk about abortion, it becomes— it quickly becomes political. And that, that is true. So how can we talk about this in a way that doesn't become political? Mm-hmm.

Well, even by thinking about those two core beliefs and changing our language to talk about it from, you know, a scriptural perspective or a gospel perspective is really the first step to taking it out of the political, right? Because even that first core belief of God is equally powerful passionate about the woman and the child. Right there, we've taken it out of the political false binary that it's one or the other, and we've created space to say, we're going to be— I'm going to be a person, and we're going to be a church that really goes after God's heart for the woman and the child. You don't have to be afraid here that we're gonna, you know, step on the woman's toes or the child. Like, we want to create the safe space where we say, if God values them both, how can we value them both? Even by that narrative and changing that language, it really takes it out of the political. And then I would say by the second, our second core belief as well, you know, one of the things that the political is characterized by is lack of grace. Again, these are people trying to get elected. I'm not demonizing them. I'm just making general comments. But we don't see a lot of grace for having the conversation or for listening to someone who may disagree with us or, getting through the places where we feel triggered. So if we think, okay, God's transforming me through his grace, and I'm going to extend that same grace to this person I'm having a conversation with, and I'm going to try and listen and, and, and not even use the political words. You know, there's a lot we can talk about with this issue without having to say I'm this political party or that one. There's a lot of ways that we can focus on the people impacted and asking what do they need and how can we bring solutions. Um, that we would never have to disclose to the other person what political side we're on, right? We're just talking about human need and how can we as Christians step in like Jesus would and meet that human need.

Right.

And that's a really great way of looking at it. I think many of our congregants would be surprised to realize that Jesus wasn't a registered Republican or Democrat, you know.

Right.

There's something much deeper. In fact, he got in a lot of trouble because he didn't toe political lines of his day, for sure. Right.

And if you look at the stories, it's interesting, several of them will say the Pharisees brought him this question in order to trap him. So there was this sense that they were saying, Jesus, should we pay taxes to Caesar or not? To trap him. You know, should we stone this woman or not? To trap him. And he was so calm always, and so wise, and he had this third option, the third way, this third answer that they hadn't thought about. And that's really at the core what I wanted to see him bring to the abortion issue, is I don't want to get stuck in this, are you this or that? I want to say, God, do you have, you know, a third way that's gonna bring— release much more of his kingdom than, like you said, voting for a certain law?

Yeah.

So, well, and, and this— brings us to a second tension that is listed on the ProGrace website, because without realizing it, many churches talk in a way that just shuts down conversations. And the second tension that is listed on the ProGrace website says, "We don't know how to talk about abortion in a way that's consistent with Jesus' example in Scripture." So what I'd like to ask you, while I have you here today, are what are some of the ways that we talk about abortion and that shut down the conversation. It's good to maybe shine a light on those things to help us not do it a little bit.

Yeah. Well, I think just by, you know, if we stand up in church and we say, and this will depend on the type of church, you know, we're a pro-life church or a pro-choice church, we might mean that in a moral sense, like this is, I mean, we have a moral conviction, but the people hearing that are gonna assign, all sorts of political stereotypes to it, you know. And if people don't realize that, I think, think of the other side. So whatever side you're on politically, who's listening, think of what you would say if someone said they were the other side. Like, immediately there are all these stereotypes. And so that right there shuts down conversation instead of backing up and saying, okay, you know, we're a church that's here to live like Jesus did, and he valued people. We want to value the woman and child equally, that right there opens up conversation because there are really negative stereotypes associated with each of these political terms, you know, and we might use them interchangeably, moral and politically, but the people we're talking to don't, you know what I mean? That they are going to assign the worst of it. I think the other thing that shuts down conversations is just not really taking the time to understand what it would be like to be in this situation of an unintended pregnancy. So if we have never taken the time, you know, both of my pregnancies, I wanted to be pregnant at the time. Right. So I have a paradigm of joy and I had a lot of support. I was married and we were ready. That is completely the opposite when a woman's facing an unintended pregnancy. And so some of our responses can seem callous and insensitive if we haven't taken the time to, to think about what would it have been like for me to be 20 in the middle of college and have to tell my Christian parents, you know, that, you know, first of all, was having sex outside of marriage with my college boyfriend who maybe is a Christian too, but now we're pregnant. What would that have felt like? And so, and, and because the tragedy of that statistic, the LifeWay statistic, is a lot of times people in that situation will quietly go have an abortion because, because they don't think we'll understand, and they don't think that we'll have empathy, and they don't think we'll extend grace. So, um, you know, I, I remember hearing people say things once I learned a woman's reality. I remember someone talking about a young woman who got pregnant in high school, and they said, oh, it's such a shame, she was such a smart girl. So just that little comment, and this person didn't mean anything bad, this is a wonderful loving person, but we don't understand how our stereotypes of what that means— is she not smart anymore? Has her identity changed? Like, this is why she's tempted to get an abortion, because of these stereotypes out there. So just taking the time to walk in someone's shoes and think what it would be like, even that can shift our language, um, in talking about this.

Yeah, and I think you're right. I think probably well-meaning people as well. You know, sometimes if I'm just imagining a scenario where someone may come into our church that's, that's in that situation you described— let's say they're a person in college or something, and they've found themselves at even at a Christian university. Let's just, let's just hit all, hit all the Christian boxes, okay? And a person comes in and says to someone they trust, I'm pregnant. What the person in church might want to do as their first reaction is, is, "Oh no, oh my goodness, I'm so sorry to hear that," you know, or whatever. But at the same time, we're at the same time saying, "Well, that baby's life is precious, so you can't get rid of it." But at the same time, we're not giving you an option to talk about it either because you're scared to death by how, you know, we're going to condemn you. And we've kind of, you know, it's created this trap on both sides, you know. It's like we can't get out either. Yeah, you're damned if you do and damned if if you don't, so to speak. So I appreciate the way that you're helping us to maybe take time as Jesus did. You know, I love the story of Jesus scribbling in the sand when the adulterous woman— and I don't know where the adulterous man is, but the adulterous woman was drug before Jesus.

And he had to be there because she was caught in the act.

Exactly right. So either he ran fast or something. But I love— I've always loved the way that we don't know what Jesus scribbled in the sand, but it just seemed like he turned things around and put it on his terms. And isn't the most beautiful part of that story is when he asks her, when all of the accusers have left and dropped their stones, and he says, "Now who condemns you?" And, you know, and she says, "Nobody." And he says, "Well, neither do I," you know, and, "Go and sin no more." And so it's the idea of how can we get get to that point where the church can be a place not of condemnation but of grace. And I love what I'm hearing from you about that and the ways that we can help. And, and that brings us to tension number 3, which is probably the last tension we'll have time to talk about today. But the tension number 3 has to do with helping us create safe environments. The tension number 3 from the website says, we don't know how to create create a safe environment for women facing an unplanned pregnancy. Um, so, so maybe you could help us understand today, what are some of the ways that we know for sure do not create safe environments for women? But then how can we also be places that do create safe spaces for women who have unplanned pregnancies that may walk through our doors?

Yeah, well, since we're on the story in John 8, which I love, and in our training we take a lot of time to absorb that, but let's let's just have this conversation from that story. You know, in that story, they, um, they— the woman was just used as a pawn, right? They were trying to trap Jesus. So remember that in the abortion debate. Sometimes women are caught in the middle. Um, the man wasn't involved. We know he was there because she was caught in the act, but where is he? So this is an age-old tool of the enemy to even fracture off men from women. And, and a disproportionate amount of the attention and, and shame often lands on the woman in And that's the enemy. I'm not blaming men. I'm just saying, as Christians, let's be aware of the spiritual reality of what the enemy is doing here. So, you know, and then they came to Jesus and said, "She sinned. What do we do to her?" And honestly, we can sometimes do that. You know, even in your scenario where someone says to someone at church, "I'm pregnant," oftentimes church folks, one of the first things we want to do is say, "Well, you sinned by having sex outside of marriage." That's the first thing we want to say. And so you can see from this story that none of those things are helpful She was anything but safe. I mean, they were going to take her life just so they could trap Jesus. I mean, this is really a vicious picture of what's happening, and, and I do think Satan's definitely involved in driving this. He wants to kill a woman and a child at the same time, take them out. Steal, kill, and destroy. So the first thing we can do is understand his role in this, that he's the enemy, not people. And then we can look at what Jesus does. And what Jesus does, the very first thing he says is to the religious folks. If you have no sin, go ahead and throw that stone at her. And I think that's the first thing we can do to become safe, is say, Lord, I want to know your grace. Let me be honest about my own sin so that I'm not making her mistake worse than any of mine. You know, that's the first place we can be safe. And then when, when that tension is gone, when those stones, you know, are gone, and we We've received grace for ourselves. The first thing He says to the woman is, like you pointed out, "No condemnation." And again, as Christians, we want the first thing to say is, "You know you sinned, right?" It's like, that's not what He does. She's standing there and He extends no condemnation because He was really the only one who could have thrown a stone at her, right? He's the only one who didn't have sin, but He knew He was going to die for her sins, for our sins. And so remembering we can be safe by leading with grace. Because it's understanding that God loves us and has forgiven us and accepts us. That's why he can then say, "Go and sin no more. Live a new life." And I think when we have that posture, then the practical applications of becoming safe follow that, you know. And I know we have limited time on the podcast, but I would just urge everyone, I really think God needs to transform us as Christians first, kind of following the order of that story. He spoke to the religious people first. So I would just love to see all of us as Christians sit with him, sit with that story. Do we lead with grace? Because I think once we have that transformation, churches are a natural place to be supportive for women facing an unintended pregnancy. You know, they're naturally structured that way if we, if we are safe, if that makes sense.

And, and another important thing to point out, you know, Jesus came to save sinners and only sinners. You know, there's a sense in which, like, people without sin need not apply, and, and because there aren't any, for one thing. And I I think it's great for us to be able to face our own blemishes in order to help others. And I wanted to share a story with you that maybe you've heard before, maybe you haven't, but just a couple of days ago I recorded a conversation with one of my favorite preachers and theologians. He's Methodist. His name's William Willimon, and he's a chaplain at Duke University. And he wrote a book a number of years ago called What's Right with the Church? And in that book, he actually recalls a conversation that he was a part of with a group of ministers pastors in his area, and the abortion topic came up. And I think this was like 1985, so it's been a while ago, but it's still a pretty fresh story. And pastors are from different denominations and different stances are arguing with each other. And a gentleman who was a pastor of a black church in their community, he kind of stood up to tell his story, and he said, we have this situation going on right now in our church. We have an unwed teenage mother who really hasn't had a good home life and really has kind of raised herself and is in kind of a desperate place. And he said, "This is how we do it at my church." He said, "I went to a couple who now has the kids out of the house. They've done a great job with their family, and they know how to raise children. And so I went to them and I said, 'We've got a situation in our church where where this girl in our church is going to have a baby and she's going to need somebody to help her raise that baby. And to be honest, she's going to need somebody to help raise her too, because she's so young.

Yeah.

She said, we need you to take this lady under your wings and help her and be there and kind of be parents for her. And he ended the conversation by saying, that's how we handle this debate in my church. You know, we do it together. And I always loved that.

Yeah.

And I thought, that's such a creative way of thinking about it, that we can only help if we're willing to have some responsibility in, in helping, you know, like, and actually doing something about it and creating that environment.

But right, yeah, I love that. And I think, I think too with that, you know, we all have seasons of real brokenness in our life, right? And, and that's— I was, I was embraced by a church in one of my darkest times of brokenness, and I received a lot from them. I didn't give a lot in that season. You know, they prayed for me and they blessed me. And, and then I just became a regular part of the church. There wasn't a stigma on me that I had been that person who needed so much in that season. I was a regular part of the church. I became a leader in the church. You know, now I'm leading a ministry. So I think too, in that story, is like God has a plan for that teenager and her child. And yes, we're going to step in for a season And I love that that family was willing to open their home. I mean, amazing if we could do that. Um, and with that, also have the mentality that this is a season in their life. Um, they're not going to be marked by this forever, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's just like my seasons of darkness. And then wouldn't it be great if, if they're just a part of the church and they're— it's never known that they came into the church because she was a teenage mom They're just one of us. This isn't us against them, us versus them. They're one of us. And so I think that's what the church has the power to do is literally shift that negative story and say, we're going to be this culture where we're going to help both the woman and child thrive, just like that family did. And I agree with that, Pastor. That's what's going to change abortion. That's beautiful.

Well, that's terrific. And I was hoping you hadn't heard that story, so I would get to tell it to you today.

But that's great.

That's great.

Yeah, well, and, and I think that's what we're going for and what we're trying for. And I do want to say to people listening out there today that, you know, you may be hearing this and, and maybe you felt like in your church, boy, we've blown it. Um, I, I also just want to remind everybody, thank God that our Lord is one that reminds us that we can begin again anew and that we can confess if we feel like we've, we've really blown it. One of my favorite things about even even, um, you know, the creation story. We have a God that creates things and recreates and remakes and renews. And, and even if we've felt like maybe we have done some of these things in the past— I'm, I'm sure I certainly have— that have created unsafe environments or, you know, just, just really blown it, I'm grateful that we can be people of grace and, and even own that up ourselves, you know, and, and, and become a place that God can renew with this.

Yeah.

Well, I appreciate what you're doing, and I appreciate your time being able to stop and talk a few minutes. I know your schedule is very busy, but I think this has been rich and helpful in the conversation. And I just want— would you tell people just quickly about where they can find the best information about pro-grace and maybe some good resources for them online where they they could kind of find out more?

Absolutely. You know, if you go to prograce.org, um, there's a section there for churches to wrestle through, and that those are the tensions that you were describing. And I should say, you know, at the heart of ProGrace, just like you said, Rick, we believe the church is God's solution for the abortion issue. So the things we're saying is not to condemn anybody. I'm part of the church. I've made mistakes. It's more to elevate our understanding that we are the ones God is going to use to change this issue. And so we love, we love the church. We love helping church leaders, and there's a lot of resources on the website there. There's also a section for pregnancy organizations who are directly serving women. We have a brand new podcast actually that we're just in the process of releasing, but it's already up on our website. So there's some more conversations there. Yeah, brand new.

Terrific.

I know. And a blog there as well as information. So yeah, I would love for anyone to enter into this conversation because I do think it's us together that are gonna shift the abortion issue in America. So appreciate people taking the time to listen.

Well, that's terrific, and I just want to make sure I know for the show notes so I can put it on my website. Is the podcast just called the ProGrace Podcast?

So the title— yeah, the title is New Conversations About Abortion.

New Conversations About Abortion. Alright.

The ProGrace Podcast. Yes, so we go around the country and have these kinds of conversations with Christian thought leaders, with pastors, pregnancy organizations, organization directors. We even have a good friend who's pro-choice we recorded a couple podcasts with. Just how can we start talking about this together to break down the barriers?

Yeah, well, that's terrific. Well, Angie Wesley, thank you for your time today. And as I say to my guests each week on this show, thank you for being one of the voices in my head this week.

Thank you.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com, where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, follow my blog, and even schedule me for a concert or a speaking engagement. Better yet, even a book signing in your neighborhood. You can find all that and more at rickleejames.com. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, the more visitors as possible, this podcast will be online. And now for the benediction: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. God bless you, and thank you for listening to Voices in My Head.