Voices In My Head Podcast Episode #249: Andrew Osenga and the Painted Desert

<LYRICS>Hymns, Prayers and Invitations</LYRICS> The latest album from Rick Lee James has garnered praise from CCM Magazine, Worship Leader Magazine, UTR Media, and more. Written and arranged using hymnals and prayer books for inspiration, this collection of 10 modern hymn-like worship songs will inspire individuals and congregations to draw near to the heart of God. <LYRICS>—all in the name of Jesus.</LYRICS> Highlights include Christ Is Lord, inspired by St. Patrick's Breastplate Prayer, Advent Hymn, and the communion hymn, The Invitation. Worship leaders will be glad to know that all songs on the album are published through LifeWay Worship. Find hymns, prayers, and invitations on Amazon, Spotify, Apple Music, CD Baby, and at Rick Lee James Have you ever thought to yourself, man, I'd like to host my own podcast?

Well, guess what? You can go to podbean.com/voices and get everything you need to create, manage, and promote your podcast. I use Podbean every week for Voices in My Head. There's easy uploading and publishing tools, stunning templates, custom domains, social and promotional tools, an embeddable podcast player, monetization tools, and more. It is your all-in-one podcasting solution. With Podbean, you can create professional podcasts in minutes without any programming knowledge. Best of all, everything is mobile ready right from the start. So go to podbean.com/voices, and when you sign up, use the code "voices" and you'll get a sizable discount. Podbean, for your home podcasting. Thank you for listening to Voices in My Head. Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James.

I'm a recording artist, a singer-songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene.

The Voices in My Head podcast is your source for discussions on music, literature, movies, pop culture, theology, and more. Now sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of the Voices in My Head podcast. And don't forget to let the voices in your head be heard by following me on Twitter @RickLeeJames and sharing your thoughts about today's show. Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I am your host, Rick Lee James. I'm very glad you could be here with me today. This is going to be a great episode. Just a couple hours ago, I recorded a conversation with Andrew Osenga. Out of Nashville. He has a new album coming out. He's got a great podcast that he's hosting that's doing very well right now. And it was just fun to catch up with Andrew, and hopefully I'm gonna get to see him, uh, in person again to visit at the National Worship Leader Conference here in just a couple months. But we had a great conversation. I'm gonna share some music from Andrew, uh, in this episode from his new album, which he's currently kickstarting. More about that in just a moment. Speaking of people who are making albums and crowdfunding. I'm one of those people, and actually this week begins my crowdfunding campaign on Indiegogo.com. That's Indiegogo, I-N-D-I-E, uh, go-go, G-O-G-O. I think you know how to spell it. Indiegogo.com, that's where I'm going to be doing my album crowdfunding. It's going to start on Friday the 19th. Now this is very important. I need your help. I need your help to fund this new album, and it's going to have some great music on it. And it's where you're going to get to hear that Lost Treasure by Rich Mullins, Thunder, maybe another one that is by Rich Mullins that the world mostly hasn't heard yet, some unpublished work by Rich, but also some songs by me, some hymns rearranged similar to what I did on Hymns, Prayers, and Invitations. So if you like that album, you want to check this one out. But this is going to be a much more me album., than the last one. There's much less of the Nashville sound. It's going to be more me with Brothers McClurg making this album in their studio up in New York. And we've already got 2 songs done. Now listen, there are perks whenever you donate to this campaign. We're not just asking for something for nothing. We have to raise over $10,000 to do this project, and that's a lot. So we need your help. But when you donate, like, you can just do a $5 donation and you can get not only a thank you from me, but you get a download of the song that we recorded from Rich Mullins, "Thunder." There's another category for single song downloads, and there's other categories. You can get the book that I wrote for giving at a certain donation level. You can get digital albums. You can get the entire CD whenever it comes out on compact disc. There's actually— excuse me— there's going to be a place where you can sign in and have your name added to the project so that when people read all about the project in the show notes, you get to have have your name as part of the Rich Mullins Legacy. And it's kind of a pretty cool thing to be a part of, I think. Also, I'm giving away rewards like being on this podcast. I have a customized group of things that I'm giving away from my own personal collection of music and books and comic books and movies and things like that. I have a Let's Make Pancakes perk. Yes, you can come to my house, we're going to make pancakes together and have a great time. There's just all kinds of things that I'm trying to offer, and I'm trying to make it really special. And I'm even giving away, at a certain donation level— I only have one of these to give— but I'm giving away a guitar autographed, my very first guitar that I ever had and learned on, played a lot of gigs with it. It has a lot of sentimental value to me. So you're gonna find that there's a lot of different ways to help give to this album, and I'm doing my best to give something back to you whenever you donate. So this Friday coming up on, on the 19th of January, be watching my website rickleejames.com, be watching Facebook, Twitter. I'm gonna be posting about it everywhere. If you haven't joined our email list yet, make sure you do that. Go to rickleejames.com, you can sign up for our email list. And there's all kinds of ways for you to be involved. Be looking in the show notes of this show and you can find out more. Okay, well, that's it for that today. Gonna move on with the podcast now, and we're gonna go into a song by Andrew Osenga that is, uh, on his new album. And I'm really excited to be able to share this conversation with you. So we're going to start out with a song by Andrew Osenga, going to follow that right up with the conversation I had with him about his new album, about his new explorations in life, the new endeavors that he's a part of. And as always, it's so great to have Andrew Osenga on the podcast. Thank you for listening to Voices in My Head. God bless you guys. We'll talk soon.

In beautiful places. Offer the blue skies the glory of your faces. You are a part of this kingdom and creation. Scatter my ashes Way to Langdale! 85 km— I'm sure someone will meet you there? Oh oh oh... I want you to stand on the dock where I kissed your mother. I want you to know that we were alive and we loved each other. There was fear, there was adventure, romance and hurt feelings. There were people trying to do their best. There always were, there always will be. Beautiful places! It's the last gift I can give you— beautiful places!

Oh oh oh... Ooh ooh ooh... Uh uh ughh... Uhhuhuuhhuuu... Ahhhh?

My guest today on the Voices in My Head podcast really probably needs no introduction, but I'm gonna do it anyway. Andrew Osenga is a 20-year music industry veteran. From artist to producer, major label A&R to session player, he's contributed in almost every area of the business, including playing in the bands The Normals and Cademan's Call. He's also been a backup guitarist for groups like Jars of Clay and Stephen Curtis Chapman. Andrew also hosts one of the most fascinating podcasts around today called The Pivot, a show that looks at how we deal with career and life transition. His new album, The Painted Desert, is now available on Kickstarter, where he is simultaneously funding it and releasing it. Andrew Osenga, welcome back to Voices in My Head.

Well, thank you, Rick.

It is so good to have you on here. It's been a couple years, I think, at least. I've probably seen you in person since I saw you last, or talked to you last on the podcast, but you've had quite a few things going on in your life since then. You've gone from being Leonard the Lonely Astronaut to being a person who is working again in a major record label, and now you've got a new album, your podcast hosting. You're just— it seems like you're doing everything. So do you ever sleep? That's the first question.

I do not sleep very much. That would be true. Yeah. Well, let me—

yeah, you know, as we're getting started, and since you do famously have the Leonard the Lonely Astronaut album, and since you're kind of a sci-fi guy, I just have to ask you, because I haven't seen it yet, but have you watched any of the new Star Trek show?

You know, I watched the first episode and it was good, but it didn't, it didn't make me watch the rest.

Oh, is that right? Yeah, I, I haven't even—

but also, yeah, I don't have the app, so yeah, yeah, I'm not going to pay $10 a month to watch one TV show. But my, my— I realized last year, I was like, you know what, I don't sleep enough, and so I probably shouldn't watch as much TV and then I might sleep more, which would be better for me on lots of levels. So this year, the way our, the way our house is set up, I usually do the dishes at night and I can watch Parks and Rec while I do the dishes, or I can watch Parks and Rec while I go to the gym and I'm on the elliptical. And, and that's the, uh, that's the TV use I allow myself this year.

Oh, well, good for you. Well, you can't really—

so I'm trying to, trying to watch less. Yeah, yeah.

And you can't really go wrong with Parks and Rec. That's one of the funniest all-time shows ever. Dude, it's so good.

I just— yeah, I was like, I'm gonna start over with that, and that's gonna be the, uh, the show for the year.

I, I feel like somehow Ron Swanson helps me get through the Trump era just a little bit more. So I just like, just be more like Ron Swanson and things will be okay. Oh man, that's amazing. Amazing. So since we're talking about, you know, stress level and stuff this morning, uh, with different things, um, I gotta ask you because I know you're crowdfunding an album and that's a whole lot of work for this new album, The Painted Desert. How's your stress level this morning, man?

It was so funny, I was texting with Jeremy Casella who he released a Kickstarter a week before mine, so we both have them out. And, uh, you know, we've been really close friends for 20 years, and so we were kind of helping each other get them ready and figure out, okay, what are you going to do? How about this? And, um, as soon as it went live, you know, he's like, dude, yeah, you're gonna kill it. Yeah. And then, you know, an hour later, I'm like, I forgot how stressful this was. Yeah, because it's— I say all that, and then also it's been less than 24 hours and it's like 45% funded. That's amazing. Um, which is insanity. Yeah. So, and I haven't really played shows last few— I mean, I've played very, very few shows the last 4 years. And I mean, I have not done much. I really haven't done much social media stuff. Like, I just kind of have stopped the business side of an artist's career. Sure. And so the fact that people are even paying attention and seeing it is stunning. And the fact that people are supporting so quickly and so encouragingly, it's just been kind of overwhelming. It's been really, really neat.

Well, that's wonderful. Well, I think people are just thirsty for new music from you. That's what it is. They're— they've— we've, we've loved it for a long time and we're ready for more. And Sometimes, you know, I think when you go away for a little while, it probably makes it more special. You know, there's a sense in which like, like you can't come back unless you go away. So there's, there's something about that. So it's, it's, it's kind of interesting how that works. But I, I get that because I, I started a new campaign for a new album myself this coming Friday. And, and I know it's so good. It's just a ton of work, you know, and I don't think people realize all the behind-the-scenes stuff that goes into it. So, uh, I'm sorry, man, it's so much work. Yeah, I'm so glad that yours is going so well, though. I couldn't believe, uh, when I saw this morning— because I think last night maybe when I went to bed, you had made a post about, we're at 30%, this is awesome, you know. And then like this morning, I went to the gym early and I checked out your feed. It's like, we're at 40%, you know. So it's just— it's great. I'm so glad to see that people are, um, are funding music music because I don't know that people are paying for music like they once did. You know, they'll stream a song or they'll grab a Facebook link and listen for free, but it's heartening to know that for good music people are actually willing to pay for it. So I'm glad to see that's happening.

Yeah, I know. It's really, really encouraging. And that's the reason I did another Kickstarter. I mean, the record's done. Like it's finished. But there were a few, you know, it doesn't cost a lot for me to make this, you know, this kind of record's cheap, very chill. I didn't have a bunch of extra musicians on it, and most of the people who played on it and sang on it were just friends that just, you know, came by for 45 minutes and sang, and we hung out a little bit. And, you know, so I'm not— I didn't spend a whole lot on the record. Um, You know, so I have some costs, some people that I need to pay that, you know, just said, hey, pay me once you've done a Kickstarter for it or whatever. Um, but there's a lot of marketing expense that'll go, you know, towards just telling the story of the record and trying to get the music to people who haven't heard it. Sure. Or heard of me. Um, but by releasing it on Kickstarter versus just putting it up on Spotify it gives people a chance to actually support it. Yeah, well, you know, and so people who get, you know, $10— yeah, you get a bunch of people that pay $10 for a record, man, that goes a long way to the person who made that record. Yeah. Um, so I'm thrilled I'm gonna get to be able to, you know, say thank you to the people who were part of it and get to move forward with it. And, you know, a lot of independent artists And I spend a lot of my time kind of consulting and talking with young— younger independent artists, and one of the biggest things I see is that we think that the hard work is making the record, but the hard work is selling the record. Yeah. Telling people about it. You know, it's like I always use the marriage analogy. It's like, you know, making an album and writing songs is the making out of being married. It's fun and easy, you know, like even if it takes some work, it's still really fun and easy. It's like telling people about the record and booking shows and, um, you know, that's the doing the dishes and taking out the garbage and, you know, that, that's the work of being married. Yeah, um, that's the work of being an artist. And so the fact that I'll have resources to do that is a real gift because that's the thing that I've not always had the luxury of or the resources to do.

Yeah. And it's great to see. I think this is one of the more creative ways I've seen it done because you're letting people know too that the album is already done. You know, most of us, it's like we need money so we can even start the recording process. And you wonder how to do it, you know, in the age that we have because It seems like every idea has been tried on some level when it comes to marketing a project and figuring out how to get it in front of people's eyes. And I've got a good friend of mine, um, and I think you might actually know him, Dale Baker. He used to play for Sixpence None the Richer. Yeah. And, uh, he, he has a new album coming out as a solo artist, and, and his, his artist name is going to be The Maudlin Fee. And, uh, and Dale has this kind of cool idea of, of releasing a song a month for the entire year so that he can just— after that 12 months has gone by, the entire year, he'll put it out as a CD and as a full record. But in that time, he's just going to do one every month and kind of slowly release because nobody really knows his name as an artist himself. And I thought that was a cool idea. And it's always neat to see just people who are trying new things and almost seeing what sticks, you know, when it comes to the whole Kickstarter, Indiegogo world and trying to do things like that. And I consider you to be one of those innovators, you know, that you find a way to make it work. And— oh man, well, thank you.

Now, one thing I really— well, that's actually kind of— oh, that's actually the main release plan for, for this record. It's very similar to that. Like, what I found on other projects is having people that already know my music and care about it, having them have access to a new project is the best marketing possible. You know, if the record that you make is good and it connects with people in a way, they'll tell people about it. And so yeah, the actual record won't come out like— and by come out, I mean it won't be on iTunes and Spotify as a full record until, I think, October. Yeah, so that I can, you know, so that in October I'm not, hey guys, I put a record out 8 months ago, but that I can say, hey, that record you've been hearing about all year, it's finally here. And I can take 3 weeks or a month to talk about a song, and then a month later talk about the next song, a month later talk about the next song. It's what Taylor Swift gets to do on the radio. Yeah, by putting a new single out every month or two. Yeah, but we don't have that luxury. And so I think finding creative ways to be able to just tell people about track 9, which is typically something nobody hears or discovers, or it just often gets completely overlooked for an artist. And so I'm excited that in September I get to talk about track 9. Yeah, people can hear that that song means something. Yeah, and it might— they might want to hear it, you know. Well, that's— that's—

yeah, it's fun. That's great. Well, I can't wait to hear the rest of the album. I've been listening to Beautiful Places, but I probably just this morning alone I've heard it 3 or 4 times. Times, uh, and we're going to be playing. Oh wow. And, uh, I'm— you know what, listeners may have already heard it by this time, by the time that I get done, uh, editing the podcast all together. I don't know if I'm going to put it before our conversation or after, but I know they're going to love it. And I love, as all of your fans do, I— we love the story aspect of, of so many of your songs. But another thing that I really love about you is your generosity to help artists make great music as well. Not just all about you. I love the way that you kind of share your wealth. You've been a person who has touched many lives in that way, my own included, in helping people make wise decisions and build healthy business foundations. When I released my last album, Hymns, Prayers, and Invitations with Lifeway, you were so helpful And you probably don't even realize how helpful you were, but you just took some time on the phone with me, and I think we talked for 30 minutes to an hour or something, and you just helped me talk through some things. You know, I could probably name a dozen artists that are friends of mine and friends of yours who would probably say the same thing about you and the way that I think community has been important to you, not only in helping your music but helping you help other artists. And so as I think about that this morning, I first just want to say thank you for the way that you invest in the lives of others. But I also want to ask you how the stories of the community around you maybe influenced the making of this record.

Well, man, thank you for saying that. That's really encouraging. It means a lot. Thank you. Yeah. So the stories of— tell me that question again. Oh, it was just— The stories of my community around me.

Yeah, just kind of asking about if the stories of the community around you and how they have influenced the making of this record.

Yeah, that's a good question. This is my first interview about this record, so I have no, like, answer locked in yet. Woo-hoo! I'm number one. I'm number one. Yeah. Very good. I was like, uh, like, oh gosh, I haven't thought about that before.

Um, well, and I'm— you know what, I'm— you know, to give you a minute to think about it, um, and I'm only making that assumption because just based on hearing Only Beautiful Places, I mean, I, I can— to me that sounds like a song maybe like almost a love letter to your children, and maybe it can be interpreted different ways, but it feels like someone's story in there, you know? And I guess that's what I mean about the community and the stories that influence us.

Oh yeah, I mean, my community is all over this record in about a million different ways, which is so interesting. Like, I tend to make records in a room by myself. I'm a producer, I'm a writer, I can play a lot of different instruments, which often is to my detriment because I think I can do more than I can. Or I don't have, uh, objectivity. Just get, you know, just because I can do a bunch of stuff doesn't mean I can do it, I'm doing the right things, you know, uh, the things that are best for the song or that the song is best, whatever. And so, um, for this project as well as like the Leonard project where I played 98% of what you're hearing But community was huge in creating the framework for it. And so for this one, you know, I have a small home and I work, I have a sort of studio-ish thing in my basement. My kids were home a lot. I wrote this record over the summer and so, so hot I couldn't get work done, so I'd go across the street to my friend Paul's house. He's a single guy, he plays drums on all my records and he's a dear friend and he's got a— there's a code on the door that just opens the front door and I know the code and so I just went over while he was on the road playing drums for somebody else and just sat in his living room and wrote most of these songs because I didn't have a place to really work very well. I recorded this record in Josh Wilson's basement. Oh wow. Who's another neighbor down the street who's an artist and they have a killer little studio and he was on the road and so his wife and their son were upstairs and I was downstairs just in their studio and they were just, "Yeah, come over, just you got a place to work." That's great. So kind. And then I didn't— I needed to make sure the songs were good so I invited a bunch of friends over to Andrew Peterson's, uh, he's got this little kind of writing cottage next to their house. Um, so I bought a bottle of whiskey and called some friends and we met over there and I played them like probably half the record and just played them the songs and said, okay, what's wrong? And they said, well, this is really good about it, but that line didn't make sense, or why did you say that, or that song's not finished, or— and, um, you know, took a bunch of songs from, you know, being B songs to being A songs, um, whether a bunch of little changes or one or two big changes. And, um, and, you know, then to having friends come over and sing on it, or, uh, a couple of these songs I, I sent them to my producer friends. I just sent them an MP3 and said, hey, will you just add one thing just one thing. I don't even know, I don't care what it is, um, I'm not going to tell you what it should be, just put something on here. And they would send things back, and every time it was a surprise, and every time it was wonderful. And oh, I wish I would have thought of that myself, but I wouldn't have thought about myself. I had to have Kason think of that, I had to have Greg LaFawlette think of that. Um, So that was really cool. So, um, it's all to Shane Wilson, mix director, who has mixed a bunch of things that I've worked on over the years. And we used to be in the same studio building together years ago. But, um, I mean, I remember the first time I heard a record that he mixed, and that was the first time I realized, oh, somebody mixes these things. Yeah, and they're magical people. Yeah, they do things that don't— that don't make sense, and they, they make this more than the sum of its parts, more than just, oh, there's a guitar and there's a guitar and there's a bass guitar and there's a drum. They turn it into this living, breathing thing. And he's just a mad scientist genius and has become a dear, dear friend. And, and so for him to be able to take what I did in another friend's basement and to make it turn out so beautiful. It's just a gift. So when I hear the record, you know, I hear my community all over it. Yeah. And then the songs are about just the fact that I've been going through a really hard couple of years in a bunch of different ways, and, and my community has really carried me through it. And so yeah, there's a lot of references to them throughout the record, references to conversations. Well, yeah, and so yeah, the community is just huge.

That's, that's awesome. I love hearing that, and I love I love hearing about, you know, a lot of us need to allow maybe our friends and our peers to do a little more with our music than we allow them to sometimes. You know, I love how you said that, that, you know, this friend put this on there. I didn't even tell him what to do exactly. And, you know, in many ways that makes it feel more like the church too, in a lot of ways, that we all have a part together. Even though one person might sort of be the one that started it, it takes so many of us to kind of carry it on to completion. And, you know, I'm just thinking, as you mentioned, even like the art behind a mix engineer. For listeners, you know, you may not give a lot of thought to that, but if you've ever been, let's just say, at a church where somebody didn't know what they were doing on a soundboard, you can— you can— you can—

you know when it's not working.

You know when it's not working. For sure. And the sign of someone that knows what they're doing— when someone can go in and really just make the mix something beautiful, it's a good thing that you don't notice them. And their job is to almost be, you know, like the invisible person in the background. But without them, my goodness, I mean, what would we do? And it's so many aspects that go into an album. And I'd love to talk more about this all day, but there's a couple other things I want to talk about too. So what I'm gonna say right here to the listeners is that listeners, if you have not had a chance to go to Andrew's Kickstarter page, I would encourage you to go and donate to the campaign. You're really not even donating, you're buying a record is what you're doing, and you get to have it in advance of everybody else. And there's some pretty great perks on there. There's hats you can get, there's, you know, the actual album and numerous other perks, as always happens with crowdfunding campaigns like these. So I'd encourage you to go there. Is there, is there an easy link for me to say like where they could go? Is it like kickstarter.com/Andy or something? I'm not sure exactly what—

that's a good question. I should probably come up with that. Well, I think if you just look up Andrew Osenga on Kickstarter, that'll get you there, right?

Well, and what I'll also do is I will make sure in the show notes of this show on the website and on, on the podcast page to put a link to this Kickstarter campaign as well so that you're listening, you can just— oh, thank you, right on. Sure, we'll make sure and do that, and that way we don't have to remember what it was, they can just click on it. So, well, one thing I want to talk to you— there's actually two things if we have time I want to talk about today, and both of them are podcast related because you have entered into— right, sort of a new realm as a podcast host. And I've been listening to The Pivot and I've really been enjoying it. I think you have a gift for interviewing that it's, um, I wouldn't say it surprised me, but maybe what surprised me was just how good you are at it because you're so conversational with people. Um, and you know, those of us who have been doing podcasting for a while, I listen to some of the shows and go, man, I'm jealous, you're just so at ease, you know, like the way that you do it. And, uh, I, I listened recently to your Reed Arvin conversation that you had on The Pivot. And I thought, man, that was one of the all-time great storytellers, you know, just to have him sit and tell stories about Rich Mullins and stories about being a novelist. And, you know, I love the concept that you have of people who have sort of made huge life changes sort of midway through the career. So if you would, I want you to just talk about the The Pivot a little bit, kind of where that show started with you, and, and just whatever you'd like to tell us about it. Because the best recommendation I can do— and, and, and believe me, it's hard to do this while you're on another podcast, to say go listen to this other podcast. So what I'm gonna— what I'm gonna say to listeners is finish this one. Yeah, that's right, finish this one first, but then go to The Pivot and listen to Andrew Osinga's But tell us a little bit about the pivot. Oh man, you're kind.

Thank you. Yeah, so I'm 38 and I've had— like, you know, in your introduction of me, which was so kind, you mentioned all these different things I've done, which in one sense is like, oh, that's really cool. In another sense, that means that I'm constantly starting over. And I don't like that part of it. That's not— that's never been a goal, is to just have to keep starting over, you know. And it's hard. And even when I get to do amazing things, work with amazing people, like, that will end, you know. And a tour ends, a record ends, you know, my time at the label ended, and then you sit around, you go, okay, well now what? And sometimes you end and you jump right into something, and that's typically been how it's been for me. But last year, stuff ended and I— it took a long time to figure out what was next. And a couple false starts with different things. And that was— I'm thankful that that was new and that I hadn't had that experience before, but it was awful. And, and just really, it was a really hard season. And I'm having these conversations with my friends about how we all kind of feel like we're starting over. And then I was listening on NPR, they were talking about people in the tech world who essentially their job doesn't exist after 5 years because technology outpaces their skill. So like people who are app developers, this, you know, right now, you know, will have to be something else in 5 years and were something else 5 years ago because you couldn't develop apps. You know, so basically we live in this culture where a lot of people don't have the option of starting a job at 22 and working it until they're 65. You know, that we have to keep finding new skill sets, we have to keep reinventing what we have to offer to the world in a work sense. And so on the career front, that's happening to our culture, but also just in life, man. It's like we get older, we start having kids, our kids go to college, our parents get old and get sick, our our knees give out, or, you know, whatever the thing is. You know, the only constant is change, and that's never comfortable. And so I wanted to— I've been having these great conversations with my friends about that, realizing that a lot of us, we're all kind of feeling that way. We're all feeling like we're reinventing, especially in my world where a lot of us have been touring musicians for 20 years, and we don't want to do that anymore. And people are getting off the road, having to go back on the road, getting off the road again, trying to figure out, well, my passion and my dream has always been to do this thing, and I got to do this thing, and I did it well, and now I need to figure out what's past that. And that's a really tricky place to be, especially with like, you know, all you have as far as a education is an honorary degree or something. Um, which I have a bunch of friends in that situation, which is hilarious but true. So I love podcasts, and I was driving behind the middle school bus from a field trip with my daughter, um, because she wanted me to go on a field trip with her, which was so sweet. But in middle school, your dad can't ride the bus with you because that's not cool. So I'm driving behind in my little Toyota coming back from the Civil Rights Museum in Birmingham, which is amazing by the way. And realizing like, I love podcasts and there's nothing that talks about this. It's a lot of people who've made it talking about how they made it, but there's nobody talking about what didn't work and/or why they had to stop doing something they cared about., and I wanted to talk about that. And so I just thought, well, I've got some recording gear, I bet I can figure out how to make a podcast. So I called some friends and I did about 10 interviews before I ever said I was doing a podcast, just to, just to see if it would work. Sure. And if I could put it together. And, and then I put out that first season and it was a blast. I just loved it. And, um, I come from a long line of people who like to talk a lot, and so my one rule essentially was just talk as little as possible, just listen. And so if you say I'm a great interviewer, I don't know that I— I don't necessarily believe that's true, but I believe it's been a good lesson in self- Sure. Uh, just self-awareness and discipline to not try to always have to have a point, but to be able to just listen and hear what they have to say. Well, and, um, that's been it. Yeah, it's not always a thing I'm good at.

Yeah, no, but you know what, that's, that's something that makes a great interview, and it's something I'm, I'm learning as I go, uh, to allow people to talk more. And I think of some of the great interviewers like, you know, Terry Gross on Fresh Air on NPR, someone like that, she really doesn't say that much. She finds ways to allow the people to talk about themselves. And that is something that you do very, very well. And, and you, you say you have a hard time not talking, but there is a great amount of restraint, um, even with me. Like, here I am interjecting in the middle, but you, you do it very well. And I think you have You know, talk about this sort of second career, this pivot. I mean, who knew Andrew Osenga was going to be a great podcast host? And you really are. Oh man, you're so kind. So there's—

we're just convinced. Well, in every, every interview, every interview ends, you know, and then I'm like, okay, I got 12 things I have to tell you. That's fantastic.

Well, I really love— I really love what you've done with the show. I have to say that the most surprising one to me was the Bebo Norman conversation that I heard, just because I didn't know he had stopped doing music and was completely, you know, was building houses and doing all that. I mean, just, it was an amazing conversation to hear about things like that. So just in the way that I pointed everyone to your Kickstarter page, I also want to point them to The Pivot, just because I think the conversations really do have some value. And you're right, we don't hear a lot of podcasts asks about, you know, tell us the story about how you failed, you know, or whatever. And yeah, and that's, yeah, and that's not necessarily what the show is about. A lot of times they do have sort of silver linings, but it takes a great amount of honesty, especially from people who are artists, to just talk about, wow, this is where things went really wrong, you know. And, and that's, that's tough because especially in the social media world, and, and you, you probably feel this way too on some level, you always seem to have to be like, um, like, oh, look at what a good time I'm having, you know?

That's one problem with— oh yeah, it's so not true. Yeah, I mean, social media for me is like— I just, I realized it was just cancerous to my heart, and so I'm basically only on it if I'm like, hey, I got a new podcast, hey, I've got a new record, right? Okay, that's it, I gotta go. I think it's a great place to connect with people, but You know, that's what's been great about the podcast is I sit with somebody for an hour and I look at them, look them in the eyes, and I don't talk. And, and so I don't get that, "Oh, just having another perfect day," or my perfectly framed Instagram. It's like, no, no, I'm seeing their faces. They're trying not to cry. They're talking about this thing that's really hard. And Oh man, that's where life is. Yeah, there's—

and, um, yeah, I, I don't know if you have seen the new, the new Jumanji movie that came out. I've not— very recently. It's actually surprisingly quite funny, probably better than the first one. But, um, it was one of those like I had an afternoon free, I'm gonna go see things. But the reason I bring it up is there's a, a teenage girl in that film um, who is desperately trying to make her Instagram look like she's having an effortlessly beautiful, wonderful time, but she's putting— she's putting so much work into it. Like, it's, it's so true to life. Like, she's, she's trying to make it seem like she's just woke up in the morning and she looks beautiful and she's having, you know— and in reality, she's trying to set the cup, you know, the coffee cup to look a certain way, and she's trying to, you know— it takes so much work And I feel like that's where we are sometimes. Everybody's afraid to let maybe the truth be known at times. So anyway, all that is to say, you're doing a really good job with The Pivot. I really enjoy it. Oh man. I always look forward to the new episodes. I feel like I have so many podcasts to listen to, I can't keep up. But this is one of them that always makes it to my, you know, this is one I've got to make time for to listen to. So I appreciate what you're doing on The Pivot.

Oh man, thank you, Rick. That's really kind. I appreciate that. Oh, you bet.

Now there's one other thing, and I know we had talked about maybe a half hour. Is it okay if we go a little bit longer?

Oh, it's fine. Yeah, me and my kids are never going to school again.

It's just so snowy. Mine just went back today.

So yeah, all my meetings got canceled today, and I'm working from home again, so we're good. Understood.

All right. Well, the other one that I want to talk to you about, it actually does have to do with a podcast on some level, and that's through UTR Media. And they have this really great show. Oh yeah, that I also look forward to all the time. Uh, Dave puts out— and I know he puts a ton of work into this— but the Release Date Podcast. And I know you've been on there a couple times and, and telling the story behind these, uh, these Rich Mullen songs that you're producing actually. And so I'm really excited about that project, especially because I've, uh, I just finished recording one of Rich's sort of lost songs for a new album that I'm doing. And so I always get interested when anything Rich Mullins comes about, and I'm especially excited about this process. So, so I'm going to try to just quickly update listeners on what I know and then let you fill in the gaps real quick. All right, but if you listen to this release date podcast, which when Dave was on the show a few weeks ago, he talked about it, um, he's telling the story of the making of an album. And this particular album is one that UTR Media is trying to make. It's a Rich Mullins tribute album of sorts with different artists. They're trying to discuss all the ways on the podcast of the things that go into making an album, from budgeting to bringing together artists and musicians. And it's a really fascinating show. It's very much in the style of any of the great, you know, sort of radio shows that you would hear online. It's almost like a This American Life type podcast, you know, the way that It's produced, and you've been on there numerous times because you are sort of— you've sort of stepped into the role of producer for this album and kind of putting it all together, if that's what I'm understanding. So, so tell us a little bit about how this whole process is coming along with this new album.

Yeah, well, this one is, uh, that record, man, I'm so excited about the idea of it, and it's definitely a labor of love, and for everybody involved it's sort of a— it's a passion project, which means it's not anything they're going to make much money off of, and it's kind of always fighting to be any sort of priority until we get going, you know. We're still in that— we're still trying to figure out how exactly we're going to pull it off. You know, just because records— records don't necessarily take a lot of money these days, but they still take time, and that time takes money. And so for us, we're trying to figure out exactly how we're going to do it. And so Dave is a huge part of that. A guy named Andrew Greer, who is just a fantastic podcast host, he's a Moody Radio host, he's an author, he's a musician, He's one of these kind of guys that just has a million things going on. He's the executive producer of the record, and he and I and Dave have been working a lot on just figuring out how we're going to tell the story so that we can create the time to make it. And so Andrew's got a great plan in place that I think we're going to start kind of after the— after this Kickstarter release of my record is done, um, which will hopefully mean we can start making the record maybe this summer. Yeah, uh, or late, late spring if we just crush it. Um, yeah, it's one of these things we all really, really, really want to happen. Um, and one of the— one of the treats about it is that Reed Arvin is involved as well, who produced all of Rick Lee James's original records. Wow. And has become a friend. And, and to the thought of getting to produce a record with him in the room, kind of, you know, if I'm guiding the room, he's guiding me. That's gonna be— I'm just so looking forward to that and just learning from him because that dude is amazing and so crazy talented. Yeah, and especially as you start— the more time you spend with him, the more you hear stories about working with Rich, and you hear about how working with Rich meant just sort of like Rich would drop off, you know, some lyrics and a suggestion of a melody and then disappear for 4 days, and Rick Lee James would have to make the record. So a lot of what we love about those records is actually— I mean, obviously a lot of it is Rich, but a lot of it is Reed. Yeah. And, um, which is what a fantastic gift he's got. And so yeah, it's an amazing cast of people that are involved in it, and it's just logistical nightmare to make it happen.

Oh, I can't, I can't imagine.

Yeah, but yeah, so that's kind of where we're at is I think we've finally got a good plan, and we're figuring out how we're going to execute that so we can set the stage to to take the time to make it. Well, it sounds like— And that's gonna, like I said, that's the making out of the record. But the making it's gonna be fun. Right. That'll just be, that hard work will be a treat. This hard work is hard work. Yeah.

But it sounds like you got the right people in place. And Andrew Greer is also a friend and co-writer of mine, and I just, I think he's, you've got all the right people in place. Place. Let's put it that way. I feel like everybody— he's amazing. Yeah, I don't know how he, he does all that he does, but I, I highly respect him. And the book that he just put together with Randy Cox, Winds of Heaven and Stuff of Earth, I mean, such a, such a great book. And I think those stories are going to go a long way to even helping with the record, I hope, because you get some, some really truly genuine I mean, the stories in the book are just amazing that you get to hear. And yeah, I've been a fan of Rich Mullins for years, and reading that book afresh for me was like, wow, I didn't know this about him.

I didn't know that.

And here's this really human moment. And here's this— yeah, so I don't know even what else to say about it other than I'm really excited about the record, and I'm enjoying listening to release date and hearing sort of how the process is going. And it helps me too, because 'cause one thing that I think shows like release date and the pivot and just the transparency that you have, people like me who are at the same time pulling out what little hair I have left, trying to figure out how the making of a record goes, like, boy, I've gotta get this in place and I gotta figure this out and I gotta kickstart that. And you do start to think sometimes like, I bet nobody else has these problems. Problems that I'm having right now, you know. And it's so— yeah, so it's so encouraging and heartening in many ways to hear like, oh no, there's other people that are also going through it, and, and this is the way that it gets done, and don't be too discouraged by this and keep at it. So, um, just in so many ways, I find myself encouraged by the work that you're doing. And, um, and the, the 3 different things that we talked about today between your album, the Pivot podcast, the new Rich Mullins project There's so much for people to look forward to and things that you're being involved with. So now, as we close out our conversation today, I know that Nick Flora is a mutual friend and is a really good friend of yours, and you've produced many albums by him. And one thing that I miss, as he's moved into like a new podcast now from the one that he used to have, but his old podcast, the name is escaped me right now for some reason.

Um, uh, who, who writes this?

Yes, yes, who writes this stuff? Yeah, I always enjoyed this great one. Yeah, and I always enjoy— and I like the, the new one he's doing too. But the old show, he'd always end with asking the artist a question. And so in, in honor of Nick Florek today, I'm going to ask his old question from that show. And his question was always worst gig, best gig. And he would always ask— and I— so I wonder if You know, as time's gone by, I mean, I almost wonder if your worst gig was, you know, the time when I was the only one that came to see you in Cincinnati. But, you know, but, but I'll let you decide what's your worst gig and your best gig.

Yeah, I remember that one. There were, there were 9 people who came to that show and there were 5 people on stage and I was wearing a spacesuit. Yeah, that was not, that was a rough one. Um, but you know what?

I had, I had a great time.

Dude, that band was smoking. We didn't care. I mean, obviously I cared, uh, but they were like, they were getting paid. And so it was like, they just love to play. We had so much fun. Um, yeah, so the worst— gosh, I've had so many worst shows. But they're also— there's a, there's a point in your career as a musician where you have to, you have to, you have to— you, you see these things coming. You know, it's not like you just, you're on stage and all of a sudden everything goes wrong. It's like, no, no, you know from the minute you pull up to a place, like, today's gonna be one of those days. This one's gonna go sideways. Some things are not as they should be, you know. People forgot to tell anyone you had a concert, you know. And so I used to find those really discouraging, but Then I realized there's this guy in town, he's a drummer and producer named Ken Lewis who's played on just like a bajillion records and played with everybody in town. And he's this legendary storyteller. And what we kind of realized about Ken after a while is that like when you hang out with him, he just sort of disappears on you sometimes. And it's because he realizes if he stands over there next to that weirdo, that weird dude, like something's going to happen and then Ken's going to have a great story. And he just collects these stories. He puts himself in a position to get them, and I love that about him. And so now I enter into those days going, okay, today's gonna be a story day. So most of, most of the worst gigs I've— the worst gigs now are like, I kind of am having a lot of fun while I'm there, you know, because that's the luxury of saying like, I've played over 2,000 shows, I've been doing this for 20-some years, like I don't have to prove to myself that I can play a show or that I'm a decent musician, you know. It's like, okay, just weird stuff happens. Um, so probably one of the, one of the most fun weird ones that's coming to mind, um, gosh, there's so many, but we played this show with Cadmans, an abandoned Cadman's Hall. It was this Christian festival I don't remember where, maybe like South Carolina or Georgia or something. And it was a huge festival. They had this huge stage, all of like all the gear you ask for that you don't usually get when you say, you know, and they're going to have a backline. I had two Vox AC30s, which is the best. Amps to play through, and, you know, tons of vendors, and, you know, an immaculate lawn that probably could have held 9,000 or 10,000 people probably. And we were one of the headliners, and a couple other bands who were maybe like a little past their prime, which we were, you know, like we're all kind of these now B-level bands. And so this was gonna be a great gig, you know, and They've got just— everything's like perfect. And the gates open at, you know, like 10 or 11 in the morning, and, uh, and nobody. And like 2 o'clock in the afternoon, nobody. Literally, Rick, not a single person came to that festival. Wow. But they were— they were probably like— Pizza Hut is there and food trucks and like Oh, I mean, there were hundreds of people working the event. Oh my gosh. But not a single ticket, not a person came. And we came to realize that this was some sort of mafia money laundering scheme. Oh no. That they didn't need to make money, they didn't market it, they never actually sold tickets. Wow. But they needed to prove on paper that they had this thing. And, and when this— we were kind of, we're just sort of picking this up throughout the day. We're sort of putting pieces together, and at the end of the day, you know, we, we had to play our set to get paid, and like, contractually, like 45 minutes. So like, all the bands go up and play for 45 minutes to 30 random, you know, food truck vendors who have no, no one to sell to, who are just like, "I guess I'll watch Point of Grace this afternoon," you know. So you're just basically on stage making music for 45 minutes. And then, and then our road manager goes to get paid, and there's this trailer behind the stage, and he walks in, and I don't remember what we were supposed to get paid, but it wasn't enough, but it was cash. There's a stack of cash and a pistol sitting on the table. And a dude's sitting there and he goes, "We can pay you this." And Kevin's like, "Okay." Takes the money and, you know, gets out of there as fast as possible. And he's like— I mean, this guy's a worship leader now, this, uh, our road manager at the time. Like, he's just the nicest, like, most sincere, genuine— he— there's no part of him that is like embellishing, or he's like, I thought I was gonna die, I thought I was gonna die. He's freaking out. We get in the bus to leave and the gates are chained and they won't— for some reason they won't let us out because of some weird thing that they wanted us to do. And everybody's like, we got to get out of here, this place is creeping us out, they're going to murder people. And, uh, there was one, this one band— so the way tour buses work is you typically lease them, so you like, you rent them from a company that owns them. And so your driver is going to be careful with it, you know, it's a very expensive rental. But one band, I believe it was Big Daddy Weave, owned their own bus, so that theirs was not a rental. And so they were like, alright guys, Get behind us. They backed up and they hit that gate at like 70 miles an hour and just tore it out of the— tore it out of the ground and just rolled. And on, then like 5 buses just immediately streamed past it. We're just out of there. It was hilarious. I couldn't believe it. Uh, so that's one of them.

Yeah. Oh my goodness, that's a fantastic story. That's the best one probably I've ever heard.

Oh no, I'm sure there are like more interesting ones than that one.

Oh no, that one's great. That one's really good. Well, I'm— boy, if that was your low point, you know, your worst gig, do you have a best one you can think of just off top of your head that maybe at least for you was kind of a high point?

Yeah, oh man, I've had so many just wonderful— and there— I've been really blessed by getting to work with a lot of great musicians who have great audiences. Typically my shows are really tiny and, you know, I make my career supporting other artists for the most part. And so, gosh, there's been so many just wonderful things that I've just gotten— I've been lucky enough to be in the room for. Probably the highlight for me, a few years ago I got to play at Carnegie Hall with Stephen Curtis Chapman. I was in his band at the time, and for this gig we had to scrap all of our usual material and rework 25 songs so that we— and we were playing with the New York Philharmonic Orchestra and a 300-person choir. And Carnegie Hall has all these rules about what you can and can't have on stage. You can have 6 monitors in total, 24 microphones in total, which to cover the orchestra and the choir, that takes 12. And so, and the singer's going to take 1, so the band gets 11 microphones. Wow. Which typically for the 4 guys in the band, we used like 70 or 80 inputs on a tour date. You know, a drum set takes 20 by itself, and you know, we've all got all these various instruments, things we do. So what it meant is that we had to be really musical, and we had to be— you didn't just play your part.— you had to— we were playing— everything we were playing was kind of fresh, and it was— we weren't relying on any tracks or click or anything, all the things that we can kind of, you know, make sure that even if you have a bad night, you still have a good night. We didn't have any of that. It was just— it was so— it's just so present. It felt like a club show, except it was Steve Vickers and Chris Chapman, who I had posters of when I was a kid.— at freaking Carnegie Hall, you know, where Tchaikovsky was the first performer, you know, and the Beatles played there. And they're like, what? And because there are so many people on stage, it's like the band— there were the 4 of us— were just right super close to Stephen. And so I'm just— I'm sitting here 4 feet from just one of my heroes, and I'm watching him have the highlight of his career. Yeah. You know, one of his career highlights, and where he's playing his songs to sold-out Carnegie Hall, and then I get to sing the harmony, you know, and it was just an amazing— and I get to play electric guitar. Yeah, right. I get to play the most fun instrument of all at this thing. You got to sing. And I missed 2 notes that night. I can tell you exactly what notes they were in which song. Which is a pretty good night for me. That's great.

Yeah, so, um, amazing. You got to saddle up your horses more than any of the rest of us have that night.

Yeah, dude, we would open that— we opened every show with that song. Let me tell you what, it's so fun.

Well, you know what, I'm so glad you said that. When I actually hoped you would because I knew you did that gig, and I I recently read his autobiography that he wrote, and the opening chapter of the book is actually about that gig and some of the amazing things, just from his perspective, that had happened. And the whole time I'm reading it, I'm thinking, oh, Andy was there that night, you know? So I'm so glad you picked that one. I was really hoping you were going to pick that as the gig, because it's great to hear your side of it. I have that book.

I haven't read it yet, but I know I'm going to read that today.

You know what? Great. It is a wonderful book, actually, and it's, it's, it's very poignant. It's, it's funny, but talk about just chronicling an amazing career. But then all of the ups and downs, and, you know, the different griefs that he's been through. And I mean, yeah, somebody that's extremely transparent about everything from, you know, marriage problems to things that have affected him in his career. You know, little did you know, you find when you read that book book, he was rejected all over the place when he got to Nashville because people told him he couldn't sing. And he had like— He's the best.

He's one of the best singers I've ever worked with. Isn't he amazing? Unbelievable.

And it just was crazy to me. I'm reading this book and they kept, like labels kept telling him, we love your writing, but you just don't, you don't have the vocals. And I'm thinking, holy cow, what do you have to do to have the vocals? My goodness. That is crazy. Yeah, well, Andrew, man, it has been really great to reconnect with you. I hope we can spend some time hanging out at the National Worship Leader Conference at Trevecca here. Yeah, that's going to be a fun time, and lots of good friends are going to meet up there. And since I graduated from Trevecca, it's going to be like kind of homecoming for me getting to come back for that. But thank you so much, it's really been great. I can't wait to get the new album. I pledged my own Kickstarter amount, so I'm ready to get it when it's ready to come out. And I encourage everybody listening to do that and go to Andrew's Kickstarter page. We'll make sure and have a link in our show notes. So Andrew Osenga, thank you. Thank you for being one of the Voices in My Head this week.

Thank you for joining me here this week on the Voices in My Head podcast. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com. Follow me on Twitter at Rick Rick Lee James. Like my artist page on Facebook at facebook.com/rickleejames. And keep up to date on what I'm writing at my author page on amazon.com. Make sure to follow my calendar on the website, and if you would like to have me come to your town to do a concert, a speaking engagement, or a book event, you can book me through my website by clicking on the link for Pare Booking Agency. That's P-A-R-E Booking. And finally, Finally, it would mean the world to me if you were to leave me a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, the more visible this podcast is on the internet.

And now the benediction: May the God of peace, who raised Christ from the dead, strengthen your inner being for every good work.

And may the blessing of God Almighty, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, rest upon you and dwell within you this day today and forevermore.

Amen.