Voices In My Head Podcast Episode 333: Sing 2019 Special with Fernando Ortega, Sandra McCracken, and

This is Rick Lee James, and the music you are hearing is from my new album, Thunder. The title track, Thunder, is a never-before-released song by the late Rich Mullins. There are also 12 other tracks made up of original music, hymns, and readings to guide the listener on a journey. You can buy Thunder today on clear vinyl and CD, or stream it on Spotify, Apple Music, and almost every other music streaming service.

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Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, a songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more with friends, colleagues, and sometimes strangers. Sometimes just by myself. Now, make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes or by tweeting at me @RickLeeJames on Twitter. And please join my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. By the way, in case you're interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay. Where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the voices in my head. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of Voices in My Head.

Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I'm your host, Rick Lee James, and I am so glad that you are here for this super-sized Sing 2019 episode. Sing is a worship conference that is held by Keith and Kristin Getty in Nashville, Tennessee. This year it was at the Opryland Hotel, and boy was it great. They had some amazing artists, some wonderful speakers, some incredible exhibitors, and it was great to connect with old friends. As many of you know, Keith Getty has been a friend of this show, and so have so many of the artists that were there. There wasn't time to get a recording with everybody, but I ran into my old friend Andrew Peterson in the hallway. I ran into Andrew Osenga. People who've been on the show before and have been such good friends. But we did get some other wonderful conversations with some other amazing artists who have never been on the show before. Listen to the list of conversations you're going to get to hear on this huge episode today. I got to speak with Fernando Ortega, Sandra McCracken, Old Bear Recording artist Weston Skaggs, Stephen J. Nichols, Matt Papa— who else? Fred Human, David Zimmer. I Joshua MacLeod of Instruments of Joy. There was just a number of wonderful conversations, and if some of them are people that you've not yet heard of, by the time we finish these conversations, they are people you are going to want to go out and learn more about. I promise you, every conversation was great, a valuable time together. So that's going to be in just a moment. Because I did just return from the SING conference, I wanted to offer something special to listeners, especially those who may have had interest or even been at the SING conference. Maybe some of you had been streaming the event, and I want to say thank you because the Getty, the Getty Music people were so wonderful about advertising my album Thunder on the main screens in the general sessions, and I just could not believe the generosity in, in their letting me do that. So if you will go to rickleejames.com or rickleejames.myshopify.com, you can use the promo code SING, S-I-N-G. Just make sure that the first letter is capitalized. If you use that promo code SING, you can get my latest album Thunder on vinyl and CD for $10 off. Use that code. Thunder, as many of you know, is a song that was written by the late Rich Mullins and Lowell Alexander and Phil Nash, and Rich never got to release it before he passed away. I was so honored to be able to put Thunder on my album. I love Rich Mullins, and I just feel so honored to be able to release this and bring it to you. So use that coupon code SING with capital S-I-N-G, and you can get $10 off Thunder on vinyl and CD at rickleejames.com. All right, I think that's it for our intro. So sit back and enjoy some of these wonderful conversations with amazing artists here on Voices in My Head. Thank you so much for listening and God bless you. Well, here I am at the Getty Sing Conference in 2019 and I just met a new friend, David Zimmer. He just was playing on the stage in the exhibit hall with Bob Coughlin and did a wonderful set and I just pulled him aside and asked him if he had a few moments that he could talk to us a little bit about his music and ministry and his life and what he's doing with Sovereign Grace Music these days and with Getty Music. So David, thank you for being here.

Good to be here.

So I just heard you do a really wonderful set, and it was in an exhibit hall where a lot of people were sitting around listening, and it was neat to see people just kind of start to be drawn in as you're singing really songs about grace and the power of God, and even introduced us to some new music that we hadn't heard before. So I was grateful for that. Tell us just a little bit about yourself and how you became involved with Sovereign Sovereign Grace Music and also with Getty Music.

Yeah, I, um, thank you, by the way, for having me. Um, yeah, so I was, uh, I'm originally from Los Angeles, um, and I got to know Getty Music through the school I was at, the college I went to, which was the Master's University, and we became friends and in 2005, 2006, I toured with them playing drums and had an absolute blast. And so that sort of sparked that friendship. And then meeting Sovereign Grace Music, Bob, we'd always been really influenced by Bob from a distance, and we had a conference out in Los Angeles called the Resolved Conference., and the host band that I was a part of was called Enfield, and, um, we were modernizing old hymns, um, and just had a passion for deeply theological songs, uh, sung by college students. And so that birthed a relationship with Bob and his wife Julie and Sovereign Grace Music. And for the past probably 10 years, maybe less, 7 years I have been playing drums with Sovereign Grace on probably the last 8 or 9 projects. So it's been really sweet to play drums with them, but also now getting more into the songwriting side with them.

Yeah, that's terrific. And you played guitar today and sang, and so nobody would know you were a drummer from what you did today. Multi, multi-talented.

Oh man.

I, I, I try to pluck the chords out and stay in tune as much as I can, but, um, I don't have, yeah, the protection of the drum kit.

Sure, understood. Yeah, most of us musicians, we like to hide behind something.

100%.

That's for sure. Well, you wrote some good songs.

There were—

there's some very rich material in some of it that you introduced today. I believe one was called He Is Good, uh, or, or You Are Good. Yeah, You Are Always Good. You Are Always Good. I'm sorry.

No, not at all.

Remember off the top my head, but it seemed like the, the people who were listening really took to that one. And so I think that's one people are going to enjoy hearing.

Thank you.

So you've mentioned that you've been playing with Sovereign Grace for a while. How did you come to be a part of Getty Music and doing some writing with them?

Yeah, so, um, a lot of years went by since, uh, I had been drumming with them, uh, but Keith and I stayed in touch quite a bit. He'd come to Grace Community and he would lead worship at our church where I was the college worship pastor for our college ministry. So we— I just would see him twice a year, maybe in and out, and keep bugging him. And, and then that sort of opened up a relationship to him being kind of open to songs.

Yeah.

Which I thought was incredible and was so humbled to just be with him and kind of see how his brain ticks how he thinks about melody. And so it was, I mean, it was like a class, you know, a writing session with him in its own right.

Well, this is a pretty special conference that they've put together, and I'm glad that they had you come and play on the exhibit hall stage because it was really a treat for me. I haven't heard Bob Coughlin live in many years. I actually heard him at a— I don't know, seen him here and there at conferences in different places. Always good, always such a great writer.

Yeah.

And so it was a treat to kind of get to hear him accompany you today.

Yeah.

Play together. Uh, what, what is exciting to you that's on the horizon that you can tell us about a little bit? Anything that you're working with, uh, project-wise, or just anything in your ministry and life you're excited about? We'd love to hear about it.

Absolutely.

Um, I I'm sort of transitioning from being a full-time musician in Los Angeles, freelance drummer, into more of a centralized songwriting role. That's really exciting, really daunting, just because I know how many songs it takes to get a good one.

Sure.

So, but I'm really excited about that. I have a collection of songs that I'm probably going to release in the near future that might just be under my name, David Zimmer.

Good.

Songs like "You Are Good," "You Are Always Good" would go on there. That would still be in the vein of helpful, theologically rich congregational songs, but not under any sort of branch, and also hopefully continuing to write with Sovereign Grace Music. And, you know, potentially getting music.

Well, good.

And, and you already have— do you already have some music on like iTunes and places?

I have— I do have an album on iTunes and Spotify.

It's an old album, like 2013, I think. It is.

Okay.

Yeah, I wanted to make sure. So people can check out some of your music from then, but it's good to know that there's new stuff on the horizon. Yeah. And I'm excited. I'll be watching in the coming days to see the good things that God is opening and bringing in your life. So thank you for spending a few minutes with us today. Anything else you'd like to tell people? Do you have a website or anything that you'd like to refer them to?

I do not. Um, I do not. I feel like, uh, if you want to— if you're on social media and you want to follow a complete stranger, it's just David Zimmer.

All right.

But, uh, but no, I mean, thank you for taking the time.

Well, it's such a pleasure. Thank you for spending a few minutes of time here with this group.

<LYRICS>The story of the Christ who died for me.

Sing him with the saints in glory, gathered by the grace of thee.</LYRICS> Well, we are back again here at the SING Conference 2019. 2019 in Nashville, Tennessee, and I'm so pleased to sit down with my old friend Fred Heumann. He is the director of Music Works International. He's here this week actually at the IWS booth, and we're going to talk about some of the things he's been working on. He was on the show, it's been at least a couple years ago.

Oh my gosh, I thought it was like early, like week 1 or 2 or something.

It was early on.

Yeah, I'm surprised you had a podcast after that.

And we've made it to 300s now in episodes. Yeah, so we've been going for a while.

You've been a busy boy.

Yeah, it's been very busy but very fruitful. God's been doing some good stuff.

And really eclectic. That's what I love about it.

Yeah, it's great. I enjoy it too. That's why it's Voices in My Head. It's all over the place for sure.

We can pray for healing.

I appreciate it. Well, Fred, I want to know, um, first of all about your work in, in Ukraine because you've been doing doing some really fascinating things there working with students and people who are training to become worship leaders there. Tell us just a little bit, and I know we don't have much time, but kind of give us the short speech if you can about your work there and what's been happening.

Well, God opened— I mean, it's been an amazing thing, something I really never expected. The quick couple of sentence thing is right as the Soviet Union was falling apart, I was able to be a part of I was based in England at the time, was able to be a part of a joint thing called CoMission where people, various mission agencies were working together to bring some ethical education stuff to countries in the former Eastern Bloc, and they decided they wanted to bring some worship music for the churches that were being planted. And so at that point they had access to the first 7 albums of Maranatha Choruses, which at that point were 20 years old.

Yeah.

So this is 1992, and I was able to make recordings with Christian believers in 3 of those countries of these worship songs into languages that really didn't have anything. So Estonia, Latvia, and Ukraine.

Okay.

And it was nothing against Estonia or Latvia, but when I got to Ukraine, God just touched my heart and just smacked me upside the head. Like, this is something— this is a unique situation. I actually came across a couple of years ago the notes that I took during that week for all the recording that we were doing, and I had notes from speaking at the local church that provided the singers that we were using. And I spoke to them and said, you know, God has really touched my heart. I said, here, I hope— I pray I get the opportunity to return. But I also said something. I said, there's— this is not the new Cana. It's like now you only sing Maranatha songs.

Yeah.

But this is a way you can use your music and your words to worship God in your way.

Yeah.

Fast forward 25 years, 25 years, 20 years later, 2012, I'm there to teach again. Never wondered what happened. I arrive at this event. Gentleman who was who was on staff at the seminary came and said, "Oh, have you been in Ukraine before?" I said— I told him that story. I didn't tell him what I said. He said, "Oh, you're the guy." I went, "Oh no." Let's see, my stuff's still in the van, 30 minutes to the airport, maybe I can get out of the country before this all explodes in my face. Because these cassettes were distributed to small churches all across the country. Cassettes. You may be familiar with that technology.

Cassette tapes.

Anyway, I meet this man, Oles, and he says, "Oh, you're the guy." I went, "Oh no." And he realized, "Oh no, no, you must understand, I'm a songwriter. I'm a singer." And we wore those tapes out. He said, "Those songs helped me realize that I could use my music and my words to worship God in my way." And he was like 3 at the time. So it's like, there's no way he could have known that. So God had my antenna up. Long story short, as a result, for the last 7 years I've been involved in Ukraine alongside the seminary, Ukrainian Evangelical Theological Seminary, the only seminary in the country, Protestant seminary, that has residential students as well as part-time students. Most of them are the other— the broad range. The only one that's non-denominational, so everything from, as they say, Baptist, Pentecostal, and everything in between in terms of the church scene in Ukraine and having an impact not just in that nation but throughout Central Asia. So they're teaching and training and all that. So we've been able to work alongside the music ministry and theology department. That's one department name.

Sure, okay.

It's not the music ministry department theology department. They have a theology department. This is the music ministry and theology department. So basically 3 things: I am teaching students, I'm mentoring the leaders, I'm mentoring the staff, and consulting with the leadership and developing that. And we've seen seen the department explode. I mean, it's a God thing.

That's great.

I mean, it's— that sounds like the Christian thing to say, but really it's a God thing. So now those students are being equipped. We now have bachelor students who are— a couple of them are right now in Kenya teaching students in Kenya. So these are Ukrainians acting out the Great Commission. Duh. Yeah, it's not just for Americans or North Americans or stirrers. So we're seeing all those kind of things happen, and we're seeing students get excited about worship theology as well as interacting that with their contemporary music.

Yeah, well, and I think that's helpful too because every now and then we will see in our news something about Ukraine being invaded or, you know, things that it's so far off in our minds, I think, at least in this country, we can't hardly even connect sometimes. Well, where's Ukraine? Well, this is a good way to remember remember and pray for that part of the world.

Oh my gosh, think about this. We have students, we have staff and students who have not seen their homes in 4 years. Some of the staff were at what was the largest Christian university in the country in the Donbas, the region that the Russian-backed separatists have taken, who the university got turned into a brothel by these local separatists. So they're now in Kiev where we work teaching. Some of the students, you know, the backyard is the front line. Some of our students are now— some of the graduates from the seminary, not in the music department, the theology department, have planted a church or pastoring church that's literally on the front line.

Wow, that's amazing.

We have people— we've had some people from occupied areas in the country come to the conference. They would come and tell the stories behind closed doors that sound like Soviet times as far as the oppression. So the war is real. The pressure is real. What blows me away about my friends and colleagues is that they are saying, "What can we do to advance the kingdom of God in this situation?" Yeah.

Wow.

It is phenomenal.

That is amazing.

It is overwhelming, and it is an honor to work with them. I get to talk to them, and I get to to appreciate that culture too.

Well, that's good. Well, thank you for sharing a bit about that. And if people want to find out more about the work you're doing, is there a website or any place they can go to?

Yeah, we're— I mean, it's been moving so fast and I'm a one-man show that it's like, it's the most embarrassing website in the universe. Well, it's either fredhughman.org, but that's .com, that's hard to spell. Musicworksintl.org. Musicworksintl.org.

Intl.org.

Great.

Well, thank you for sharing about that. And I know our time is brief, but I want to hear about IWS because you're studying there too. First, tell our listeners what IWS is.

Well, it's the Institute for Worship Studies, and the formal name is the Robert E. Weber Institute for Worship Studies. Here they've alphabetized it under the, um, but it should be IWS for short.. And it's been going for 20-some years, and it's probably— it's the one school that started all this whole worship studies phenomenon. Robert Webber is the name a lot of your listeners will know.

Yes.

Was a prophet Wheaton, major, major influence in terms of worship theology within the evangelical world. They may even know the encyclopedia that he and Starsong put together years ago. But the idea of IWS is to equip servant leaders in worship renewal. So you're looking at students from the broadest range of what some people may not even call evangelicalism, but people on the core of evangelicalism. Everything from the occasional Catholic to Seventh-day Adventist to the Baptist to the Reformed to EV Free to, I mean, I can't even— independent charismatic, Presbyterian, and all in this rich stew. Yeah, it's not a melting pot because the individual flavors are still there. Stew is saying, what can we do to help people from a biblical, historical, discipleship base? How can we help people encounter God in a better way?

Yeah.

So it's very academically rigorous. It's really steady. It's, it's about worship. It's worship for musicians. Not music.

Yeah, yeah.

So Weber's vision was all these people who have their music degrees who wanted to learn more about theology and history, they said, well, that's great, you got that. First you got to do an M.Div., then you got to do a D.Min. It's like, this is rubbish. So that's why the Master's in Worship Studies, the Doctor of Worship Studies program came about. It really is the fountainhead from which all these other ones took their name. Literally the name.

Yeah.

And their genesis. So the student body is incredibly eclectic theologically, but also internationally. 30% of the students are international. Yes, the Canadians are there, of course, we love our Canadian brothers. Nigeria, Poland, Norway, Mongolia, Burma, Hong Kong— half of Hong Kong I think has been through there— Taiwan, Singapore, etc., etc. And by God's grace, we hope to have the first Ukrainian student at the beginning of the year. So it's this incredible mix of people and professors from Wheaton. We had a professor from Duke. You've got all these people, Christian Missionary Alliance, etc., etc.

Constance Cherry.

Constance Cherry. We were talking about Wesleyan. I mean, that's my tribe. How can I forget that? Anglican. It's Episcopalian. So it's like rich, rich stuff. So being able to understand and study with those kind of teachers who— in fact, the doctoral program is team taught. So the program that the class that Constance teaches, she's at Indiana Wesleyan. The guy that she teaches with is at Northwestern in Iowa, and he's very much a committed reform guy.

Wow.

And they co-teach the class.

That's great.

That just don't happen nowhere.

No, that's true.

And so the link for me was I was trying to get there for a long period of time, The door kept being closed, kept being closed, kept being closed. The opportunity for Ukraine came up, not in lieu of, but I thought, okay, I'm going to do this thing in Ukraine. I'm committing to be involved in Ukraine after that. And about 2 months after that, I got a call from Jim, who's here, who's the president, said, Fred, remember how we tried to get you here? I said, yeah. He said, well, I was only fooling. Uh, he said, we can do this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I said, will you come in June? I said, absolutely. This was April. So the Ukrainians find out and they say, "Well, does this mean you will not come to Ukraine?" I said, "No, I think it means I will bring it with me." So that in some ways is what we've brought. We've brought this kind of historical, the ancient future term, which basically Weber came up with, the understanding the principles of the faith in terms of Old Testament, New Testament, church history, which we often neglect, but bringing it even to the flavor of contemporary music.

Yeah.

So you get people who are informed as well as hip.

Yeah. So listeners, some of you may be aware of this, but all I have to say is the Fourfold Pattern. Absolutely.

Come on.

You'll be right at home if you want to know more about that.

Gathering, Word, Table, Sending.

Important elements.

That could be in your worship set if you're just doing the typical evangelical/charismatic, you know, 20 to 30 minutes. But when the service has that, it really reflects the heart of God. Not that the others don't, but it really gives you a richness that you don't experience in any other way.

Well, we've already gone over the allotted time. No, that's all right, but you know what? It's my podcast. We can do whatever we want.

You're the editor.

That's right. I'm the editor. The room is quieted down again now. There's multiple interviews going on in the room at any given time, but one last question for you just because we're talking about IWS. Can you remember the first Robert Webber book that you read? I'll tell you the one because I can remember it distinctly.

Which was?

Ancient Future Worship, and I had never read anything like that before, but I was so thirsty for it.

Oh yeah.

Coming out of Trevecca, I was almost ready to become a Catholic, I didn't know if there was any way to reconcile what I was longing for the church to be with what I saw in the church. I think Weber was brilliant in helping us bridge these ideas and say, "Hey, these are not actually that far off." But anyway, do you remember that?

Yeah, I mean, I'm ordained in the Missionary Church, which is out of a Wesleyan background, but I was raised Roman Catholic, and I'm trying to remember the book. It may have been bits and pieces of stuff like articles in Worship Leader magazine, but I distinctly absolutely remember when I first heard Webber speak. He did a conference, actually he was doing local churches, something at Brentwood Methodist here in Middle Tennessee. I was with two friends who were both Anglican at that point, but here's Webber talking about fourfold. He's trying to lay it out, and I'm going, "I've come home." This is like the meshing of these worlds in a way that nobody had ever said there was consonance. It was always dissonance. Not just cognitive dissonance, it was like total dissonance. Wait a minute, you mean people believed this and I have friends like that and this could happen here? So I mean, I've read so much Weber now, but it's not just about Weber and IWS. Certainly not. In fact, you probably read less than you think. But the principles are there, but I think the one that I use the most now because it's one of the only ones translated into Russian, although we have Ukrainian and Russian speakers, is Worship Old and New. That's a great overview of that. That and reading articles and stuff from the library.

Yeah.

Mention any of the Weber books I've read. Ancient Future Worship is brilliant. Divine Embrace impacted me more personally than anything else. It's from a devotional perspective and how does that How do we interact with God in terms of that?

Wow.

Yeah. Never met Bob, but loved to hear him speak.

I did have the pleasure of meeting him before he passed away. He came to the church near where I was, and I went to a little— it was a very small conference, maybe 200 people that showed up, and walked in the door, there he is shaking hands with people like he was the preacher of the church.

Working the room.

Working the room, you know, and it was wonderful. I think it was maybe a year and a half to 2 years after that that he passed away from cancer. I had no idea he was sick. It was just such a shock. But anyway, well, there's—

what he started goes on and continues to grow and develop, which is really exciting to see it in a dynamic sense. Yeah, so grateful that he was that kind of bridge.

Oh, for sure. Well, Fred Human, this has been great to sit with you again today. I'm gonna put some things in our show notes on our website at voicesinmyheadpodcast.com so people can find out more about Music Works International and Ukrainian Evangelical Theological Seminary, uets.net. Uets.net. All right, well, thank you so much, Fred, for being one of the voices in my head.

Bless you, man. Always good to see you.

Well, here we are again for another few moments with another great interview. Today we have Stephen J. Nichols, but he says just to call him Steve.

Steve is fine.

So welcome to Voices in My Head. It's so great to have you here.

My pleasure.

You're the president of Reformed Bible College. Did I say that right? Close. Reformation Bible College. My apologies on that. So now what does— maybe I've always wanted to ask this question, actually. I've known a few presidents over the years, but what does a president do day in, day out?

Well, let's see. What I know now, 5 years after being in the job, is very different from what I know. You know, the main thing is I get to represent the vision of the college, and I present that vision whether it's prospective students or their influencers like youth pastors, Christian school teachers, or their parents, to friends who come along and support us, to folks who pray for us. It really means I get to just proclaim the mission and the vision of what we're trying to do there and what we're trying to produce through through students.

Well, that's terrific. Well, you've been quite a prolific writer, I see, just going through your site and some different books that you've written and some articles, but I have one article that the title alone makes me think, and I want to ask you about.

Sure.

An Apology for Apologetics. All right, tell us a little bit about that. I'd love to hear more about that.

Yeah, you know, I was sort of playing off the Greek word for apologetics is apologia, right, and it seems like the English word that would derive from that is apology, and as Christians we should be going around saying, "Oh, I'm sorry. I'm a Christian. I'm sorry for my beliefs. Sorry that I think this way." It's the opposite. The word means to give a defense. It's a courtroom term, and it means you're on trial, right, and You got to give a defense. So I was playing off of the word there. We don't apologize for being a Christian. We contend for the faith.

Okay, very good. Well, that's very interesting. And these are some articles that people can look up about you. But some of the books that you've written, I'm just going to name some book titles too. An Absolute Sort of Certainty: The Holy Spirit and the Apologetics of Jonathan Edwards. The Legacy of Luther and A Time for Confidence: Trusting God in a Post-Christian Society. Tell us a little bit about, if you would, I'd love to hear more about your thoughts on Jonathan Edwards and his influence because there's a lot of discussion about Edwards these days. Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God and sermons like that. And then there's been other books. We've had guests on this show that come from kind of different perspective. People like Brian Zahnd and people people to come on and talk about Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God, and I'd just love to hear about sort of your— some of your thoughts on Jonathan.

You know, I first came into Edwards as a student, and I stayed with him for quite a bit, and written a few books. I always felt enriched by spending time with Edwards, but here's what I learned as I've worked with Edwards. We know him as this sort of puritanical— puritanical— And I think it was H.L. Mencken who said, "A Puritan is anyone who thinks that somewhere someone might just be having a good time." And so we paint them as these dour— fire and brimstone, and of course Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God is Exhibit A. Okay. But I'm not sure— well, number one, it's true, right? God is holy. We are not. The most compassionate thing we could do for someone is tell them the truth.

Okay.

But here's the other thing to Edwards. In that sermon, he ends it with, "And Christ has flung the door of mercy wide open, and he stands in the door, and he says to poor sinners, 'Come home.'" And when you read through Edwards, you find— here's the favorite word of Jonathan Edwards, is sweetness. The sweetness of Christ. Beauty, joy, excellence. This was Edwards' true lexicon, and his writings overflow with it. So I think I don't want to diminish Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God. What he's saying in there is very true. Yeah, we need to be reminded of it. We sort of get lulled into thinking we're okay. No, we're lost without Christ. Most desperate situation we can be without Christ. But there's a lot to Edwards, and I always come away reading him just inspired and encouraged.

Well, I was going to say too, yeah, that seems to be the one sermon that people focus on too, and you're right though, there is a lot more to it, and there's been many— that sweetness aspect of it is not always told, and I think that's good that you're bringing that forward.

There's a Princeton scholar, who would say that Paul Ramsey, an ethicist at Princeton University, and he was a big Edwards fan, and Edwards had a sermon called "Heaven is a World of Love," and Ramsey used to say, "I wish people knew Edwards for 'Heaven is a World of Love.'" Yeah. And every time they read "Sinners," they should also read "Heaven is a World of Love." So there you go.

Yeah, well, those are some powerful thoughts. Well, tell me what your thoughts are on the SING 2019 conference so far.

I love it.

I've been to all 3 of them from the beginning. I think what Keith and Kristen are doing is so crucial for the church and to help the church get back to congregational singing. You know, last year the focus was on Psalms, which is great, and this year it focuses on the life of Christ. I mean, this is the true eternal story, the life of Christ. That is at the essence of who who we are, and to be able to have this conference where you talk about the value of singing about that and bringing that back into the church, it's great.

I love it.

I've been enjoying the diversity too, whether it be the artists or the speakers, and it's been a great place. Even just fellowshipping, having some time to sit down with people at meals, and you know, how many different countries I think they said? Like, I can't remember, 30 or maybe 50 countries? It's like 1,000 people are internationals.

And you know, you think about what Keith and— every time I've been in conversations where worship style or music in the church comes up, it just, it gets divisive almost instantly. And then you look at Keith and Kristyn and Getty's, and they're actually bringing people together, not separating. So it's a great phenomenon, and yeah, I just, I wish it well., and I really think we're seeing the beginnings of a movement here in the church.

Well, Steve Nichols, thank you for taking some time today. I want to refer everybody to reformationbiblecollege.org so you can find out more about Reformation College, and we'll call you Steve, but according to your site, you're Stephen Jay, so we want to make sure that everybody checks out your books and your writings. That's right. Well, thank you for taking a few moments today to to share your thoughts with us and for being one of the voices in my head this week.

My pleasure.

Thank you.

Sing with me. Is anyone worthy? Is anyone whole? Is anyone able to break the seal and open the scroll? The Lion of Judah. Who conquered the grave. He is David's root and the Lamb who died to ransom the slave. From every people and tribe, from every nation and tongue, he has made us a kingdom and priests to God to reign with his Son. Is he worthy? Is he worthy of all blessing and Is he worthy? Is he worthy? Is he worthy of this?

He is. Is he worthy?

Is he worthy?

And I'm here with my new friend Joshua— is it MacLeod?

MacLeod. MacLeod.

Yes, sir.

All right, it's spelled M-A-C-L-E-O-D, so that's why my confusion. I knew definitely you were Josh.

Yes, sir.

But I'm here to talk with Josh today because he has an incredible company and ministry called Instruments of Joy, and I want you to look it up, listeners. It's called instrumentsofjoy.org. You can find it online., and I want you to tell us a bit about what Instruments of Joy does, because this is fascinating and it's one of the best ministries that I think I've heard of in some time.

Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, so Instruments of Joy, our mission is to provide quality musical instruments to musicians in need. So there's actually hundreds of thousands of musicians all over the world that don't have the ability to afford a quality musical musical instrument, or even any instrument at all. And so what we do is we take instruments that are sitting in a corner collecting dust, or that somebody has, and we collect that instrument, we get it in tip-top shape, and we send it to a musician in the developing world. And then we give back a photo of the person who received the gift. So we can take that clarinet that you used to play that you don't play more, get it into the hands of somebody where it will be an absolute treasure, or we purchase instruments. So we have some agreements with several manufacturers where we can get instruments at or below cost, and so it's really exciting to me that we're not only sending out normal instruments, but we're really sending out quality, exceptional instruments to musicians who otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to have an instrument.

Yeah, well, that's what I love about it because you're not just, you know, taking your old crummy instrument you didn't want anymore. No, you're actually making sure they're good quality instruments. I, I've been thinking about this, uh, more just in the last couple days since I first came across your booth and, uh, and your assistant— would I call her assistant, Andrea?

Or—

oh, she's a project coordinator. You better watch out.

I won't call her assistant, man.

She's—

well, I can tell she was very important to, uh your organization, and boy, she told me everything I needed to know. It was wonderful. But I was thinking about it more even after my conversation with her yesterday. So often we're quick to think about when sending things of compassion to people, we'll think about food, we'll think about water, we'll even think about Bibles. Yeah. But it seems like it should have been a no-brainer, but very rarely do we think Wow, music is such an integral part to life and even the spiritual life, you know, and if people don't have good instruments to play, it's very difficult to make good music.

It's crazy. So I was able to spend about 7 years visiting 20 different countries studying global poverty.

Wow.

And I was in slums and war zones and orphanages and just all over. And one of the things I learned about poverty is that poverty is not fair. You can't really fight poverty. Poverty is like a cloud. And if you swing at it, you just kind of swing through the air. So the only way to rise up out of poverty is to build bridges out of poverty, to build structures, to build systems, to build character. And what happens is, is if you live in an environment where all you see is chaos, all you see is poverty and crime and violence and sickness and death, you lose hope. So a lot of times people don't take steps out of poverty if they don't have hope. And one of the best ways to bring hope is to bring music. So I learned that people living in poverty really need to see beautiful things.

Yeah.

And you can close your eyes when a worship song is happening, and you can think about the hope that we have in eternity, the hope that we have in the future, but you can't do that if you have a horrible-sounding instrument or if you have no instrument at all. And so I was at an AIDS orphanage in Malawi, and I saw this exhibited. There was a young man who We were standing there. It was on a traditional short-term missions trip, you know, so that we're kind of standing in the front, and the orphans are standing there in the crowd, and everybody feels very awkward, and we're like, "What are we all doing here?" At the clinic, we had toured around, and there was no electricity. The kids are eating once a day, and everybody's parents had died of AIDS. So it's like if you can imagine the bleakness of that situation, and so I'm standing there, and then this kid walks in, and he's got a gas can and a block of wood. I actually have a picture that you can see. This is the kid.

Oh, I see the picture.

Yeah. He starts singing and praising, and you know here in Nashville you get to learn a good musician. He was an incredible musician, and the atmosphere, the whole atmosphere of the place just changed, and so formerly there was only gloom, discomfort, and now there was hope and there was kids praising. So I sat there looking at this kid and I'm like, I've got 3 guitars sitting in my bonus room collecting dust and this kid is using a gas can and a block of wood to radically transform the atmosphere of a place of poverty. And I've got an answer to that, you know, what were my extra instruments really doing me any good? Were they as valuable to the Kingdom of God as this kid taking a gas can. He was taking his gift, mixing it with a gas can, a block of wood, and I thought, what could that kid do if he had a real quality instrument? So I had to make that choice to wrestle with God a little bit and send him a guitar.

Yeah.

And then since that time, I think we've given out like 420 instruments in 56 countries, and it's really picked up in the last last year or so where just about every other day we're able to give a musician in the developing world a quality musical instrument in Jesus' name.

That's terrific. Hey, when we're done here, what I'd love for you to do, can you send me a copy of that picture of the kid with the gas can? Because I will put it on voicesinmyheadpodcast.com on our website because I'd love for people to see that with the link to Instruments of Joy.

I appreciate that.

I'd love that. Do you have an after too when he received the guitar, because maybe we could put that on as well.

Here's that same kid with my Alvarez.

All right. Okay, I see.

There was a mission trip, yeah, going like 2 weeks later when I got back. So you could see the before and after.

That's awesome. So you can go to our website and we'll make sure and post pictures of that so you can see what we're talking about. It's really a great thing. I want to find out how people listening can help. First question I have in that realm Do you travel to churches and make presentations about this? I mean, if you're invited to come?

Yeah, yeah, we can share it.

Yeah, for sure.

We're also working on a video actually right now, like a 2-minute video to play in churches. There's been several churches that will do an instrument drive, talk about the ministry, and okay, next week anybody that has an extra instrument, you know, let's do a drive, and then we'll collect them. We're located out of Nashville, so if anybody's in the Nashville area, we have several churches where you can drop off your instruments. If you're in another area and it's close enough, we'll drive out and pick them up if you get enough instruments. But we also, if you ship instruments to us, then we can get them overseas, you know, once they get to us.

Great.

Well, that was the main thing I was wondering about because I feel like there probably are people all over the nation that we can look in our closets and find something that is not being used.

Yeah, exactly.

But I also know I have people who listen who are incredibly generous and would probably buy something new, you know, just to send. And if they wanted to do that, you would probably work that out as well.

Yeah, really the best thing in that scenario is just to make a financial donation to us because we have connections where I can get stuff at or below cost from distributors, so we'll go and buy in bulk. So I'm buying, you know, 20, 30 instruments at a time, and so often we can get like $600 instruments for like $200, and so we have a thing that we just started called the crew, like our, you know, Instruments of Joy is like our crew members, like the band crew, and so if like a $20 a month donation from a Sunday school class or something like that, we'll send one instrument instrument a year, so we'll send you a picture of the musician who gets your gift. But if you— or if you do like, uh, $40 is 2, or like with 5, uh, with $100 it's 5 instruments a year. So you get kind of those pictures and you can pray for the musicians and stuff like that. So that's the new thing that we started.

Well, that's terrific. Well, I'll try to put as much of that information as I can on the site too when we release this episode. So listeners, you can again go to Voice voicesinmyheadpodcast.com and look up the Sing 2019 special, you'll be able to find this. So I want to tell everybody once again, the website is instrumentsofjoy.com. Their slogan is, we equip aspiring— let me say that again, I can't talk— we equip aspiring musicians in the developing world with quality instruments. And boy, that's a mouthful to say. It's easy to read, but it's hard to say. So, but I applaud you for this. I think this is such a great work.

Oh, it's a gift. God is good.

And what a cool thing that on the way out with Fernando that you got to meet him, and he sounded interested in maybe being a part too, so I hope that all works out because what a great platform that could be to help serve other people.

The other thing I wanted to say about Instruments of Joy is every one of our instruments is given in Jesus' name, so it's It's exciting to me that the musician who receives the gift, they don't know who I am, they don't know who the donors are. All they know is that somebody shows up with a quality musical instrument and says, "Hey, Jesus wants you to have that." Or, "This is from Jesus." This is a gift from Jesus. Every one of our instruments is given in Jesus' name.

That is so cool. Well, thank you for the work you're doing, and once again, thank you for being one of the voices in my house this week.

We will sing with our hearts restored. He's done great things. We will sing together. We will. And we will. One more time. We will In the house of Zion, we will sing with our hearts restored. He has done great things.

We will say together, we will feast and we Well, here we are again, and today we get to talk to Sandra McCracken for a few minutes. So I'm so glad to have you here. Thank you for being on Voices in My Head.

Thank you so much, Rick.

Well, I have been really enjoying listening to your new hymn, and I want to talk to you about that in just a moment, but I first want to say congratulations on the new baby, and he squeezed my finger in the other room, and it just made me miss my son so much.

So, but they're pure sugar at this point. Yeah, a couple months old, and just, yeah, it's pretty special.

Well, God is good, and I'm good to see, um, it's good to see new things happening in your life that are good, and I just kind of following your journey over the years I know there have been tough days, and I know there have been valleys and peaks and all kinds of things, but it's good to see some goodness in your life and some good joy coming about. You probably won't remember this at all, but I think it was last year actually at Trevecca University, you were a part of the Worship Leader Conference, and we met very briefly in the parking lot. You were trying to find your way out after you had performed that night. You said, "Where am I?" Yes, thankfully I was a student at Dzerveka years ago. I knew right where to point you. Oh, that's great. Thank you.

I remember that.

You're welcome. Well, this is a song, "Christ is the Life of the World." I immediately want to say "the Light of the World," but the song actually is very different, "the Life of the World." And I heard that you wrote this song kind of in the middle of winter by candlelight. Tell us a little bit about that experience.

I did. Thanks for asking. I was reading, so the title is directly connected to the book I was reading at the time called For the Life of the World, which is like kind of, it's this beautiful book written by an author with the last name Schmamen, which took me a while to figure out how exactly to pronounce it, but Alexander Schmamen. And I think it's out of print right now, but it reminds me of things that I read when I was a as a kid around, like from Francis Schaeffer where you think about, or like Kuyper where you think about all of life. There's not a molecule that is not over, there is not one molecule in the universe that God doesn't claim to be his own. So that there's not just like sacred and secular. So this book really talks and explores that and the central part of it is really like, the cross. I mean, it's the fact that if everything holds together and when we gather at the table for communion, we are brought out of this— like, things that have been pulled apart are brought together and there's healing and there's something that's happening in that exchange that we do weekly or monthly or whenever we join in this practice that really puts this life together, and then we're sent back out into our lives, whether— no matter what your vocation— and all of that other work in the world becomes infused with this healing, right? So it's like we, we literally take the bread and the wine and, and it becomes nourishment to us through his Spirit. So it's really— I think it's really central in song, but you don't hear all that in in the hymn. So I think taking those kind of big concepts theologically and trying to just bring them into a meditative context and to be able to sing them. So for me it's been great to have to, like, to, you know, take these words and to sing them over and over, "Christ is the life of the world," and to find some encouragement in that.

Have you ever used it when leading like during a communion setting?

Yes, we've actually— it's funny because the song— so I've been serving as the music director at a small Anglican church for the past 5 years, and this song is actually— I wrote it about 2 years ago. And so like when my older kids, when they heard it, the new recording— well, there hadn't been a recording.

Okay.

When they heard it, they were like, like, Mom, that's not a new song. And I was like, no, yeah, it's not to you because we've been singing it in our church context for a while, which is one of the kind of the cool things about doing both, like being— having life in a local community, and then at a certain point after it's been like stewing and sitting and, you know, being part of that, then sending it out more broadly. So yeah, it's kind of neat.

I don't know.

Well, and it's, it's a neat I love this song too, and it kind of starts out with a feel of— and by the way, I always consider you sort of the Emmylou Harris of Christian music.

Oh, thank you.

You know, when I hear your voice and just the way it starts.

That's high praise.

Well, I was hoping you would take it as such. I do. It really does. I just always, always get in like an Emmylou groove when I listen to you.

Oh, thank you.

But I love the way the song starts, and I'm sure Ben Shai probably had a lot to do with this too, but it really starts with this light fingerpicking, and you think, "Oh, it's going to be just kind of a folk song," and then it turns in very symphonic, you know, and it just takes some unexpected turns whenever you're listening. I just think it's a beautiful hymn, I really do, and for whatever purpose you would use it for in a worship service, it's very good.

Thank you.

Ben did a beautiful job with the arranging and wrote the parts for the string, you know, kind of did all those things and made it feel more orchestrated. I think if it were just me, it would just be the little triplet guitar thing that's happening and kind of linear, but yeah, he did a beautiful job. And we were also mindful at the time that of wanting— I talked to Ben about wanting to make this feel accessible so that somebody could hear it and say, "Oh, I'd love to do that." Sure, like we'd love for the song to be useful and to, like you said, like at a communion service or wherever it would be.

And I, not to interrupt, but I think it just as easily somebody just sitting at a piano or, you know, it's very accessible for that purpose. Yes, oh good, thank you. Going beyond just that song for just a moment in the time that we have, I wonder, it seems like you've kind of taken on a worship leader role over the last few years, maybe more than you once did because, because of your involvement leading at this local church. And yet I, I still feel very much, you know, there's a lot of folk roots sort of in your music. And one thing about folk music that I really like, even if you think back to like Pete Seeger or someone, he really got people people singing together. So I'm kind of curious, just where's your heart— maybe the question's better like this: What's your greatest joy when you're making music anymore these days? Have you found that it's really great to get all the people involved singing in a congregational setting, or do you really love kind of taking on the role of folk singer and singing these songs, but they're not totally dissimilar in that oftentimes you are getting people to sing and you're trying to get them to move. But where do you find kind of your greatest joy in between those two kind of musical worlds? Because they can be quite different in a congregational setting versus playing for people on a stage somewhere.

That's a great question. I love that question because it's— it makes me think about when I was a little girl, I was really shy, was not eager to be on stage or in front of people, or even just in front of, you know, a big— I'm from a big family, but I'm the youngest, so I was kind of always like on the sidelines. Just loved being around all the action, but not really needing to be in the middle of it. And I think with singing, I think the greatest joy for me is that community. Aspect of it. So writing something is— I love the— you know, that's gratifying, like to kind of feel like, "Oh man, where did this song come from? I didn't know I could do it." You know, "I didn't know this was in there." But the real joy is when the song then goes out and everybody else makes it their own and there's this communal thing, because then I can sort of back off of the microphone or off to the side of the room and recognize that everyone is in this together. Together and that we're sharing that. And, um, yeah, we all probably have a tug of, uh, between, you know, ego or insecurity. And I think singing can be very healing in that sense because we are in it together and it's— you're part of it but you're not the center. And we're all doing this thing. And I think the practice of that, like being in a choir, is Man, it's a tradition and it's a great thing to do because it helps us to access that part of like what it is to be communal. But not everybody can be in a choir, so if you can join on a Sunday morning, you know, take your earbuds out for a minute and actually recognize there are other people around you, you know, there's like, it's a different communal experience and we've lost some of that in our culture of like singing to together.

That's true. Yeah. So you said that, and it leads me down another path, the communal aspect of music. Um, is it more personal or more communal when you listen to a song?

So I'm probably in a transition in that way because I think as a— for my first, um, I mean, for my first 20 years of doing this, I think it started out pretty inward-facing, like, what do I feel? How do I want to express that? When I first started writing, I was a teenager.

Yeah.

And it was like all about me and my feelings, you know? And then I think I'm in a transition now where I recognize the— like, it is so much more— it's so much more fun to like turn that back, like to ask the question than to be asked. And I think to take what I've learned about whatever's inside and try to just open it up and be in a conversation with others. So yeah, my hope is that it would be growing more and more communal and less— I mean, not that it's not still personal.

Sure.

That's going to be unavoidable because we're all a little bit self-interactified.

Well, and I'm sure you know even from your psalmist Psalms Project. When you go to the Book of Psalms, even the personal Psalms are meant to be communal, which is kind of interesting.

The we and the I are almost interchangeable.

Yeah.

And they were— it's fascinating to think that these were all at one time the hymn book for Israel, you know, that they sang these songs, even the I ones. And, and it's interesting to find that. Well, we're almost done, and I'll let you go in a minute. I've enjoyed our time together, but I'm just curious, what's on your playlist at home right now, or your CD player, or I don't know, maybe Spotify? People listen through so many different places, but what's inspiring you right now?

Well, it's funny, but because it's still 95 degrees outside, but I am listening to Christmas music a lot because I've just been in the middle of a Christmas project that will be out later this year, and I I love kind of the classic kind of Christmas sounding records and have been digging into some of that and writing some new things, but just enjoying the old carols too and seeing what it's like to put them in a new context.

Well, that's terrific. Well, we just had a concert at the Opry House last night that was— the Gettys were recording a new Christmas live taping so Phil Keggy came out and did Silent Night, and I think we were all welcoming it with the heat that we had outside.

It's so great.

Christmas, so that's terrific. Well, Sandra McCracken, thank you for giving us a few moments of your time today, and I hope you have a wonderful time. I think there's a lunch and you're playing out. I'm gonna be at this afternoon as well.

Yeah, that's great.

Well, thank you for being one of the Voices in My Head this week.

His mercy is more.

Praise the Lord!

His mercy is more. Stronger than darkness, new every morning. Our sins, they are many.

His mercy is more. So we're sitting down right now with Matt Papa. He is here as one of the artists at the Sing Conference in 2019, and he and Matt Boswell just released a really great new album. It's called His Mercy Is More: The Hymns of Matt Boswell and Matt Papa. So Matt, welcome to Voices in My Head.

Thanks, man. Thanks for having me.

Well, it's such a privilege, and last night was great, by the way. Our listeners won't know this because they weren't here, here, but last night was at the Grand Ole Opry and it was a taping of the Gettys' new Christmas special.

Yeah.

And you, both of the Matts, came out and sang a really great rendition of your song Sing Me the Song of Emmanuel, which is, I believe, track 4 on this album. Yeah. And so what was it like for you? Is this— was that your first time to play on the Opry stage?

Yeah, it was fun. Well, I played there Sunday night for, uh, we did like a kind of a writer's round type thing, kind of before the conference started, and it was a lot of fun. But yeah, I mean, basically this week, this is the first time I've played in the Opry room, and it was amazing. I mean, it's just a beautiful room. It goes, it just kind of keeps going up. You look from the stage, it's like, it's pretty awesome, and obviously a lot of great music has been played there. But yeah, the Christmas deal last night was so much fun. The Gettys, their band, such talented folks there, and the guest artists and all that he brought in. So I'm not quite sure why me and Matt were included in the mix of those people, but yeah, it was a good time.

It fit perfectly, though, the song about the Emmanuel right in the middle. In the midst of all the Christmas celebrations. So be looking for that this coming year at Christmas time, I think on TBN or one of the networks.

Yeah, it'll be on TBN.

Very good.

Well, I'd love to know just real quick about how the new album came about between, between the two Matts, as I guess I'll call them.

Yeah, yeah. So probably 10 or 12 years ago, I was with a music company and, and Matt was also with a different music company but we were sort of respectfully doing our own things, and sort of our music companies that we were with paired us together to write. And both of us were sort of, you know, we were doing our own things, but we were both kind of at the same time interested in this thing of hymns, like writing hymns. And so when we got together Later that day we did that. We wrote one and we started another one, I think, if I remember correctly. And then essentially since then, I mean, about— we kind of just kept at it and really like every Wednesday at 10 AM on Skype, Matt and I met for the past 10 years. So like we've kind of just been very slowly and steadily doing it. And so this album is that. So it's like 5 or 6 of the songs, I mean, songs we've been working on for the past 10 years. A lot of them take years to finish. But so there's 5 or 6 older songs. And then in the last couple years, we— we kind of hustled and finished out some new ones. And so there are 13 songs total, but it's sort of a culmination of our work for the past 10 years.

Shame on me for not doing the research, but it sounds like a live album. Did you record it live?

It is.

Well, it's kind of semi-live. So what we did was we recorded in a studio with an audience. It was in a music studio in Nashville, but there was kind of a great room and we got about 100 people in there, people who knew the songs and some of them were from various choirs and things. And so, yeah, it was kind of like a semi-live thing, but I think it turned out wonderful. It was cool, you know, with live records and worship in particular, like the essence of it, right, I guess is people singing together to God. And so like to do this album and it be a live thing, you know, it just captures the essence of the thing.

Yeah, it really feels live. However you did it, it feels like—

cool, great.

Yeah, it's got a good sound to it. Well, I'm always curious, what kinds of things are you reading? Or listening to? What kind of things are you— I guess I'm asking from a perspective of people who are listening who may be interested in writing. And I'm always looking for good advice for writers. I know a lot of that has to do with things that like books that people read, maybe poets, maybe even film sometimes.

Just wondering if you have any good recommendations for us.

Yeah.

You know, I—

Trying to think over the past 2 to 3 years. I've really enjoyed, you know, G.K. Chesterton, C.S. Lewis. They're some of the best, like, with metaphors, you know. Yeah. They're amazing. And man, I wish I had known you asked 'Cause I have a list of books, or a huge stack of books in my bookshelf that are kind of in a section that are basically like, these are great for writers or for songwriting. I'm trying to think through some of those. I'll think of it after your next question.

Well, no problem at all. I don't want to take a ton of your time, but what's your— this is really not anything to do with writing or anything, it's just a personal preference thing. What's your way of preference to listen to music? Do you like vinyl? Do you like to listen on your phone? Do you like to listen through CDs? Or do you have a preferred way that if you could listen that you would?

Yeah, I mean, I stream it. And I like to pop in the headphones and that's usually how I do it.

Yeah?

Yeah.

Good stuff. All right. It's always a fascinating question because I'm finding that the younger I talk to anymore, it seems like vinyl is the way they're going.

Oh, for sure.

All the time, which is fascinating in any way. Well, I want to say thank you again for your music. Thank you for spending some time here and just a few minutes. Moments on this compilation episode that we're going to do. I've really been enjoying— this was actually my first time to get to hear you in a live setting, and so it was really great to get to do that. But I appreciate the work you're doing, and thank you for contributing to the modern hymns that we have today.

Thanks, man.

Thanks, thank you for being one of the voices in my head this week.

And when I come to die, give me Jesus. Give me Jesus.

Give me Jesus.

You can have all You can have all this world.

You can have all this world.

You can have all this world, but can't have me. Well, here we are once again at the Sing 2012 Festival. 2019 conference, and I'm so privileged today to be able to have a quick conversation with Fernando Ortega. Fernando, welcome to Voices in My Head.

Thanks a lot.

I have been a fan for some time, and I'm really glad to get to have a conversation with you today. How have you been enjoying the conference so far, or is this your first?

This is my first day.

Okay.

And, um, and I've— yeah, I was in a phone meeting in the morning, and then I haven't really attended any of the stuff until I will after I finish these interviews.

So you've been running around like crazy.

A little bit. This place is huge.

Yes. Opryland Hotel is not— it's not Super 8.

That's for sure.

That's where I'm staying.

Oh, okay.

There's a kid that showed me around this morning who said he walks 27 miles a day here as an employee. Wow.

That's amazing. Well, he ought to be fit, I would think.

Yeah, yeah, he looked fit.

Well, welcome then to the Zain Conference for the first part of it today.

Yeah, thank you.

I know that many of our listeners are going to know you've been around for a while. You've made about 20 albums over the years.

20 albums, yeah.

So impressive. And your styles have ranged from bluegrass to Latin America to jazz to contemporary worship. And yet what I think a lot of people really know you for are the hymns that you have really rearranged and worked. And so I'm curious, what role as as a writer, as a singer, what role in your life have like writers as far as poets, authors, maybe even other singers, what role have people like that played in your own life in writing songs?

Yeah, that's a, I would say it's a vital role because, you know, things, especially when writing about God or love, probably the most two written about things in history. And you're always looking for, as a songwriter, a way to say something new. And you can fall into the clichés and vernacular of, you know, the contemporary arena of that stuff. Or you can kind of draw on other centuries in the past or current really great writers. To see, to find new ways, find unlikely ways of expressing yourself. I think that's the challenge for a writer. You don't want to just say the same thing the way everybody else has already said it. So I do, I love to read poetry, good writers. Flannery O'Connor, even though she's not poetic, but her prose helps me think about things, think about the gospel in a different way. Joni Mitchell, Flannery O'Connor, Joan Mitchell, the songwriter, the way she— her rhyme schemes and the way she had of making these ideas fit into such a small space.

Big help. Well, I'm glad you mentioned Flannery O'Connor. I was going to bring her up.

Oh, really?

Okay. Yeah, because I had heard that you really liked her. Do you have a favorite short story or book that you really find that has been very helpful to you or very powerful?

My favorite short story is Revelation. That's one of the last stories she wrote before she died. And then her book that I go to all the time is called The Habit of Being, which is just a collection of her letters from the time right before she signed with, you know, with the publisher until she died. And there are letters to her publishers, letters to her friends, letters to young fans of hers.

Yeah.

That's a great one.

Well, that encourages me. I don't know how often we would hear it like a hymn conference or worship conference, the importance of authors like Flannery O'Connor. But for me too, I have found that she helps us— well, maybe she forces us to explore different aspects of our faith than we sometimes even want to.

I think so too. You know, there's that— there's that her approach to the gospel. I think one place she said, you know, with kind of a deaf culture, you kind of have to bonk them over the head. That's a terrible paraphrase of how she said it. But her stories are kind of head bonkers in that, you know, it always ends with death or disfigurement. But in that moment of death or, you know, just brutality, the person, the subject finds either God or they're in need for God.

Yeah.

And that's the starting place.

Yeah, that's terrific. Well, let me ask you something because I've read that you have talked about very, in very profound ways about doubt that has come into your life at times. And there's been a gap at times between albums, you know, different times. And I've heard that you've said before that you were dealing with some doubts and things. I I'd love to hear from you because I feel like doubt actually is an important part of our faith journey. I'd love to hear from you. What role can doubt play in actually being a vital part and an important part of our faith?

Well, for me, I mean, there's all kinds of periods of my life where I did experience incredible doubt, but there was a time in in particular about 7 years ago where I really, I was working at a church and I was new there. It was a very difficult situation just church politics-wise, but I started to develop these sort of social phobias even where I was just, I couldn't hang out with the staff people. I just had these weird self-conscious things. It was a weird time. I found myself going to the sanctuary every few minutes and getting on my knees in between the pews on the floor and asking God, "I need to go back in that office and work. Please get me through 10 minutes." That's why I'd go back in the office and I would get through 10 more minutes and then I'd find myself back in the sanctuary on the floor again. It seems like That's how I crawled my way through my life in those times. I didn't feel God, I didn't hear his voice, I really doubted his existence. And, um, but the perseverance of it, just the holding on to my deeper knowledge that he did exist and that he was for me and with me, you know. It pulled me through that time. But in the middle of it, it just seemed like he never would. But I know now, having been through that, you know, he was there with me. I don't know if that answers the question.

Yeah, no, that's good. And I think sometimes it's so important because, I don't know, for me, when I've experienced those times, I think it's been helpful in the long term because I think it's made me a more compassionate person maybe, and more open to others when they're having their doubts. We're so quick to sometimes force answers on people, and there's so much sacredness in that moment where we can listen to a person and what they're going through. So I appreciate you just being able to talk about that. So many people—

Yeah, it's hard. I was getting emotional there for a second. It's a hard memory. But yeah.

Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that.

Yeah, of course.

I wish we had longer today, but I want to be conscious of your time, and it's so nice for you to stop in and just talk for a few minutes. I wanted to tell you on a personal note, I've had a number of people over the years, because I'm a music pastor as well, and I travel and do music, and so your music comes up from time to time, and people will request songs. And one of the greatest compliments that I can think of that I've had had people tell me a number of times is, I really want— give me Jesus at my funeral. Oh, you know, and, and I, I think that's a, a powerful thing for a person to be able to say. I mean, what a, what a sacred thing for a person to hold that it means that much to them.

Yeah. What's today? Today's Monday.

A week ago—

no, two—

this last Saturday— it's Tuesday.

Tuesday.

This last Saturday I sang that song at an old friend's funeral. Yeah, an incredible woman, 82, who died from cancer. But that was the first song that her family asked me to sing. Wow. It's a huge— it's a hugely comforting song.

I didn't write the song, but your arrangement is wonderful.

Yeah, I arranged it. You know that it's an old, like, a hymnal, a hymn from the slave days?

Yeah, I was gonna say, I think it has roots in that, and that gives it all the more meaning.

Meaning, I think, really, when we think about it. All those really suffering generations that added verses. There's so much longing in the song to me.

Well, and I think it's powerful that it's specifically your arrangement of it that people have asked me about, that they've said, "I really like that and want to sing it at our churches." Cool.

Yeah, I'm singing it tomorrow morning here at this church.

Oh, wonderful. I'm so glad. Well, Fernando Ortega, thank you for spending a few moments with us here you today on the Voices in My Head podcast. And as I say to all my guests, thank you for being one of the voices in my head this week.

All right, thanks so much.

Yeah.

Though I will not, not be silent. Oh, no rock will take my place. No, I will not, not be silent.

I'll forever shout your name, oh Lord.

Well, here we are again with another great interview here at the SING Conference, and my old friend Weston Skaggs. We've been friends for a while, but this was our first time to actually meet in person, and he is an Old Bear recording artist, and it's just a great thing that we're going to get to hang out a little bit this week. So Weston Skaggs, welcome back to Voices in My Head.

Hey, glad to be back, and in person this time.

Yeah, we just actually experienced something very special. We were in the room with Joni Eareckson Tada as she gave an interview to another media outlet and so it was really great to be able to kind of hear her story. So I feel so blessed, I'm almost ready to go home now.

It was so good.

That was, that was very humbling. I don't know, I don't know how to follow that up. Yeah, well, you know, phenomenal to hear some of her story and hear her heart, you know.

Well, thankfully you don't have to really follow her because nobody else but us heard it, so we're just telling the story. So we're in a room, by the by the way, where there's other media outlets that are setting up for conversation, so you might hear a little bit of overflow, and you also might hear the Getty Choir in the background rehearsing in the room next door to us. But Weston, talk to us real quick because you're not only involved with ministry at your local church doing music, you're an Old Bear Records artist making great music. What's going on with your music these days and the new music that you're making?

Well, uh, thanks for having me back on. By the way, I think we've had two conversations previously, and one was about Joy and Sorrow Meet, my first LP with Old Bear and Sprig Music. And then we talked about my Christmas project, and this year I've been working on two new EPs. We talked about doing like another full-length project, but the songs that were being written by myself and then also with with Chris Hoisington, Anthony Hoisington, those guys from Brothers McClurg, the songs that were being written kind of were going two different directions, or you could hear them going two different directions stylistically and things. And so instead of trying to put that, like, tension into one album, we just wanted to be free to go stylistically one way with one EP and then another way with the second one. So the first one, first 6 tracks are in the mixing process right now.

Terrific.

And on an unnamed EP. I haven't come up with a name for it, but it's a lot of personal songs and some like family songs, story songs, and a little less into the directly like worship-related realm of some of the songs on Joy and Saramit. And yet there are some there, but some of them are just to people, and some of them are just about people. Last year was a heavy time for my family as both of my grandfathers passed away.

So sorry.

And it was just, you know, it just rearranges things in your life and in your family, the family dynamic, as you're missing these patriarchs, you know. And then we also adopted my daughter Amara, so we have 3 kids now. She just turned 1, but that all happened last summer, and it was just like boom boom boom, like highs and lows and tension, you know.

Joy and sorrow meet.

Exactly, and that's what life's all about, and it's just more of it, you know, now. And so leaned into that, and I walked through some depression and heaviness of heart and grief. And so that came, I think that came out in some of the songs. But I think it's important to be real, especially within the church. I think you know it too, when we listen to a lot of Christian music that's mass-produced, it's often irrepressibly just like happy all the time. But when we read God's Word, we see the Psalms, and a lot of those songs in the Scripture are very honest, to the point of being, you know, just really real about the pain. And I didn't want to try to fix things in all the songs, so there are some songs that don't bring it back around, you know, and I just felt like I had to leave some in there, you know, in the paint.

Well, we're looking forward to hearing those new songs. I'm glad they're in the mixing process. I'm especially glad that Old Bear Records is represented here today at the SING conference. Let me ask you, since we are here at SING and this is the SING 2019 special that we're working on right now for Voices in My Head, what are your hopes and expectations going into into this conference in these next couple of days.

I'm excited. I watched some of it on the livestream last year, and I was like, how am I not at this? You know, that's just the thousands of people in the room.

Yeah.

Uh, and singing these, you know, hymns of the faith and newer songs of the faith. And then they just have done such a great job at getting so many, uh, so many wonderful people together who have written about worship and preached on, you know, preached on worship. So many great speakers and artists. That's just like, man, it's hard to beat this many great, this many great leaders in the church at one conference. So I was just like, I got to be there this year. And actually my local church was kind enough to send me.

So yeah, that's terrific. Well, I'm so glad that we're getting to meet up and hang out a little bit while we're here together. And looking forward to hearing the new songs. I'm looking forward to the, the rest of the Sing Conference and all that God has in store. Thank you again for, for taking a few minutes to talk to us about your music and your life. And I'm sorry about the loss of your grandparents. I'm, uh, I'm overjoyed about new family members, and, uh, we'll just look forward with with great expectation of what God's gonna continue to do in your ministry in the coming days. So thank you for being one of the voices in my head this week.

Thanks, Rick.

Walk through yourself. There's love. There's the power of the cross. Son of God, slain for us. One life.

Glory to him who loved us and freed us by shedding his blood for us.

Well, I hope you enjoyed today's episode with some wonderful interviews with amazing people. Because they are so amazing, That's what made the interviews good. Every one of them have such unique talents and abilities and are doing such great things for the kingdom of God. I do want to remind you once again as we close out the show that if you use the code SING, capital S-I-N-G, at rickleejames.com or rickleejames.myshopify.com, that you can get my latest album on vinyl and CD for $10 off. The latest album is Thunder, and it features Thunder, the song that was never released by Rich Mullins. Plus, the rest of the album is filled with worship music and original songs that I am so happy to give to you. So go to rickleejames.com, use that code SING, capital S-I-N-G, and get $10 off the vinyl and CD bundle. Well, that's about all we have for this time. I hope you enjoyed this Sing 2019 supersized episode. Thank you for listening to Voices in My Head.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, follow my blog, and even schedule me for your concert or speaking engagement. Better yet, even a book signing in in your neighborhood. You can find all that and more at rickleejames.com. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, the more visible this podcast will be online. And now for the benediction: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by by the power of the Holy Spirit, you may abound in hope. God bless you, and thank you for listening to Voices in My Head.